F-4 Favourite of UK Pilots claim

[Finningley Boy]

Why British pilots loved the F-4 Phantom | Watch (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/webcontent/why-british-pilots-loved-the-f4-phantom/vi-A6tbmD/HH/C8Kw?provider=yt&vid=ENQlD3SqBQ0&ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d152405d90c24480afeab8846a51ec3c&ei=9)

Here you are Beagle, pr00ne and others who grappled with the St Louis Spook , would you testify to the video's title claim?

FB:)

[BEagle]

Hmm - some utterly irrelevant video clips. What do the North American X-15 and the HS Hawk have to do with design of the F-4?

No mention of the RR Spey for the UK.

Not much of a video. Why 'British' Navy and 'British' Air Force too?

In my time, the F-4 was very restricted by fatigue limits and the fuel moratorium. So once a year when we took the tanks off and went nuts at Deci, it was like being thrown in at the deep end!

The F-4 wasn't the 'favourite' of this UK pilot! Hunter, Vulcan, VC10K ranked higher in my list of favourites!

I'm sure that other UK pilots had a very high regard for the F-4 though, so I leave the debate to my betters at this point!

[BBadanov]

I had heard anecdotally back in the day, when ETPS studes did their previews on the F-4M, that all the criticisms were on the UK mods and retrofits. Including the Spey, I would guess.
But mainly UK cockpit mods, with switches, dials, instruments thrown around in typical Brit ergonomic abandon.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I had heard anecdotally back in the day, when ETPS studes did their previews on the F-4M, that all the criticisms were on the UK mods and retrofits. Including the Spey, I would guess.
But mainly UK cockpit mods, with switches, dials, instruments thrown around in typical Brit ergonomic abandon.

Did the UK F4's have the idiot change so switches in the up position were off ? I never understood the rational for going against the world standard and who actually thought this was a good idea.

[NutLoose]

Did the UK F4's have the idiot change so switches in the up position were off ? I never understood the rational for going against the world standard and who actually thought this was a good idea.

Probably someone thought household switches operate that way, so it makes sense.
Rather like the French, who up until the war years and beyond had the throttles reversed, pull back for power, push fwd for idle, a gotcha waiting to happen.

[wiggy]

I had heard anecdotally back in the day, when ETPS studes did their previews on the F-4M, that all the criticisms were on the UK mods and retrofits. Including the Spey, I would guess.
But mainly UK cockpit mods, with switches, dials, instruments thrown around in typical Brit ergonomic abandon.

Having looked at more than a few F-4 cockpits and done two tours on the F-4M I don't think the UK version was ergonomically any worse than any of the other earlier variants, just ergonomically different..

edited to add link:

https://www.f4phantomparts.com/COCKPITS.html

IMO biggest gripe ( certainly for the high level side of the AD job) was the choice of the Spey...made the aircraft great in a low level drag race but pants supersonic/ high level.

[57mm]

After 2 tours on the FGR2, I was posted to Tornado F2/F3. OC 229 did my famil trip in the F2. In the debrief, he asked me what I thought of it. I said "Well, the aircon's nice, but otherwise, a bit underwhelming."

[Finningley Boy]

Having looked at more than a few F-4 cockpits and done two tours on the F-4M I don't think the UK version was ergonomically any worse than any of the other earlier variants, just ergonomically different..

edited to add link:

https://www.f4phantomparts.com/COCKPITS.html

IMO biggest gripe ( certainly for the high level side of the AD job) was the choice of the Spey...made the aircraft great in a low level drag race but pants supersonic/ high level.
I understand reaching the mach 2 marker at altitude was quite ambitious? Or rather ambitious?

FB

[wiggy]

I understand reaching the mach 2 marker at altitude was quite ambitious? Or rather ambitious?

FB

Just a bit, I certainly never saw it myself..

I vaguely recall one of our USAF exchange pilots (obviously plenty of time on the J-79 variants) really giving it try one night and failing. On return his comments on the super sonic performance of the UK product were, well.....unprintable

[RAFEngO74to09]

Interviews with various Phantom FG1, FGR2 & F-4J(UK) pilots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdsch3CJQKg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30OQ6KAy7fc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nVHcNqUfVw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob3AnVmMHmY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-dnrhaKff8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0GQMCgw9g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXHoWVeYcG4

[Finningley Boy]

Gee thanks for thelinks RAFEng!

FB

[Krystal n chips]

Never had the misfortune, but, I am reliably informed by those who were involved, an engine change on the shoe-horned Spey didn't endear the engineers to the Phantom.

However, the introduction of the type did offer the opportunity to be forced to watch, possibly, the most vomit inducing PR film promoting the F-4....ever.

Met a few US Crew chiefs over the years and mentioned this " marvel of BS "...strangely, they all agreed along with terms that cannot be repeated on a public forum.

[BEagle]

You mean "This is a weapon system. It is the property of the US Navy" promo film?

[DuncanDoenitz]

Never had the misfortune, but, I am reliably informed by those who were involved, an engine change on the shoe-horned Spey didn't endear the engineers to the Phantom.


As a technician-veteran of the FGR2 and the -J(UK), I can testify that the Spey was, indeed, a squeeze. With great foresight, however, RR had designed it to be perpetually lubed-up externally, which probably helped with whole the sordid process.

The J-79, by contrast, was a doddle. And clean.

One of the major problems with supporting 74 Sqn's -Js was getting the damned thing started. It had been designed around carrier operations, and engine starting required huge quantities of hot, high-pressure air (roughly twice the pressure and flow of a Palouste) and something which traditional US carriers had in abundance. We procurred a half-dozen or so mobile starter trolleys from USN which were large enough (think 2-berth Sprite Alpine), but each Wattisham HAS was also provided with a more hardy, and consequently larger, British-designed 8-wheeled monstrosity (now think Winnebago) powered by a 27 litre diesel.

[FLCH]

The book “Confessions of a Phantom pilot “ was a good read….Tug Wilson seemed to have fun with it

[clarkieboy]

each Wattisham HAS was also provided with a more hardy, and consequently larger, British-designed 8-wheeled monstrosity (now think Winnebago) powered by a 27 litre diesel.

Which were unfortunately too big to fit in a Herc.....
The big Houchins were great, but hardly practical, so the Solars went everywhere with us. I guess you will remember the fun and games with Y-Pieces and two Paloustes, then....

[Krystal n chips]

You mean "This is a weapon system. It is the property of the US Navy" promo film?

I've no recollection of any USN aspect, more a promo film from McD.

It started well enough with shots of the F-4 cavorting around perfect blue skies, interspersed with shots of an adoring public looking upwards....however, then came the Hollywood " something bad is about to happen " music....enter, a T-33. The commentary gave the game away, something about "when danger threatens, the angel of mercy becomes the angel of death ! "..cue, T-33 sneaking (S&L) through dark clouds with....a BIG RED STAR on the side...just to ensure we knew who the "baddie " was.

The mighty Toom duly recycles the T-33.... seen cascading in a million bits towards the ground....music changes, again, to happy music, F-4 again doing loops and rolls around a blue sky and, on the ground, same adoring public (presumably nowhere near the debris field) showing their admiration.

Despite having done the "Q" course, I never actually got to work on the beast because Innsworth / manning , in their "infinite wisdom " cancelled the posting to 31 and went to 431 instead.

[Gordon Brown]

:ugh:

[DuncanDoenitz]

Which were unfortunately too big to fit in a Herc.....
The big Houchins were great, but hardly practical, so the Solars went everywhere with us. I guess you will remember the fun and games with Y-Pieces and two Paloustes, then....
Indeed, if one could find 2 serviceable Paloustes at the host airfield. ISTR that, if push came to shove, we could start using a single one. Procedure was along the lines;

Engage starter, accelerates to 10% cold engine, power-lever to idle, accelerates to 20% and approaching red-line TGT, power-lever to cutoff.
Engine decays to 15% and TGT falling, power-lever to idle, relight, engine now accelerates to 25% and approaching red-line TGT, power-lever to cutoff.
Engine decays to 20% and TGT falling, power-lever to idle, relight, engine now accelerates to 30% and approaching red-line TGT, power-lever to cutoff ...................

God knows how the turbine felt about all this.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

As a former Phixer the mighty Toom was the only aircraft I knew that included a sledgehammer as part of the flyaway tool kit.

[Expatrick]

Now look you lot! In my early teens the Phantom was the best of the best of the best - please do not shatter my childlike illusions! Thank you!

[wiggy]

Now look you lot! In my early teens the Phantom was the best of the best of the best - please do not shatter my childlike illusions! Thank you!

Well the other side of this story is that despite the limitations at high level when it all worked the Spey'd F-4 was a pretty mean machine in the low level A/D role - Pulse Doppler radar, tooled up with 8 missiles and possibly the gun. The one thing the RR engines did provide in that environment was stacks of excess power which, combined with a high IAS limit (varied with configuration), could be handy when dealing with high speed possibly multiple targets .......oh, and one must not forget the hook.

I always reckoned it was certainly in it's element operating in fairly austere conditions down in the Falklands post conflict, operating off Stanley's metal strip,

[Finningley Boy]

Well the other side of this story is that despite the limitations at high level when it all worked the Spey'd F-4 was a pretty mean machine in the low level A/D role - Pulse Doppler radar, tooled up with 8 missiles and possibly the gun. The one thing the RR engines did provide in that environment was stacks of excess power which, combined with a high IAS limit (varied with configuration), could be handy when dealing with high speed possibly multiple targets .......oh, and one must not forget the hook.

I always reckoned it was certainly in it's element operating in fairly austere conditions down in the Falklands post conflict, operating off Stanley's metal strip,
All thst noise was the Best!:}

FB

[Dominator2]

I was luck enough to fly the F4D, E and M (FGR2) between 1976 AND 1987. In that time I achieved 2500 hours in both Air Defence and Air To Mud.

In the late 70s and early 80s the FGR2 was at the top of the list of Premier Air Defence Fighters. What it lacked in high level performance it more than made up for in weapons and weapons system. At that time the RAF and RN were the only nation to master the complexities of the Pulse Doppler PD radar.

In Europe in 1980 the RAF Phantom squadrons (19(F) Sqn and 92 Sqn) were the best AD fighters on either side of "the wall". Earlier than that in the 1970s the Air to Ground squadrons at Bruggen and Laarbruch were better than anything else around. All weather, low level, self escorted with a good range and a massive payload.

It was a difficult aircraft to fly well, and I only truly mastered its eccentricities when approaching 1000 hours on type! The E model was easier to fly in combat with it's "Soft Wing" (Slats). I however preferred the Hard Wing F4. I do wish that the FGR2 had some of the Navy Mods. The Slotted Stabilator, Drooped Ailerons and Rapid Reheat would all have been welcome. Although designed for Carrier Ops I understand that with a couple of Circuit Breakers (CBs) pulled these Mods would enhance the aircrafts performable in combat.

As a 23 year old 1st tourist the F4 Phantom was the absolute best (and meanest) aircraft around.