Current Rates of Flying Pay

[ASRAAMTOO]

Hi Folks,

Been some while since I retired. Back then there were several rates of additional pay for flying duties.

IIRC there was Flying Instructional pay, payable from the start of BFTS, followed by flying pay from the end of Valley. Eventually a higher rate of flying pay was introduced which kicked in after a certain amount of time on the lower rate. Cant remember the details.

I gather its all quite different now, could someone still in the know post the current rates and when they kick in please. I managed to find the Officer Pay Rates on line but it did not include additional pay>

Thanks

[Chauderon]

See page 123 of the AFPRB report:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64affa97c033c1000d806281/AFPRB_2023_Accessible.pdf

[ASRAAMTOO]

See page 123 of the AFPRB report:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64affa97c033c1000d806281/AFPRB_2023_Accessible.pdf

Thanks for that. I now know that there is tier 1, followed by tier 2 and an ascending scale within tier 2( I’m assuming annually).

At what stage however do aircrew start to receive tier 1 and when do they move on to tier 2?

Thanks.

[trim it out]

According to the JSP, for the RAF Tier 1 is payable 6 years from the commencement of Phase 2 Flying Training (AeroMed, SERE, Ground School, HF & CRM). Tier 2 Rate 1 6 years from completion of OCU, rates increase annually.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

According to the JSP, for the RAF Tier 1 is payable 6 years from the commencement of Phase 2 Flying Training (AeroMed, SERE, Ground School, HF & CRM). Tier 2 Rate 1 6 years from completion of OCU, rates increase annually.
There's also a retention payout at the tier 2 point which is notionally the difference between "old" flying pay and tier 1 on the new scheme. The idea being that at the 7 year point you've got the same cash in the bank as the old scheme, it's therefore cost the mob the same, but you're now under another 6 year return of service. Be interesting to see how many people that's keeping in....

[ASRAAMTOO]

According to the JSP, for the RAF Tier 1 is payable 6 years from the commencement of Phase 2 Flying Training (AeroMed, SERE, Ground School, HF & CRM). Tier 2 Rate 1 6 years from completion of OCU, rates increase annually.

Not that it’s very likely in todays shambles but that presumably means that in theory a pilot could actually be flying on operations before being in receipt of flying pay. Doesn’t seem very fair really!

[Bob Viking]

Not that it’s very likely in todays shambles but that presumably means that in theory a pilot could actually be flying on operations before being in receipt of flying pay. Doesn’t seem very fair really!

Yep. A Typhoon QWI could be earning the same or less than OC Catering. Who will possibly have graduated from the same IOT and already reached Sqn Ldr rank.

The real clever trick was when they changed the name of flying pay to RRP (recruitment and retention pay). More than just a nomenclature change.

I await with eagerness to see the long term effects of the change. I suspect (in fact I know) that the £70k (pre tax) lump to stay is not exactly having the desired effect. In fact, by that stage, the poorly paid second tourists are more likely to opt for a life elsewhere. Who’d have thunk it?!

BV

[trim it out]

There's also a retention payout at the tier 2 point which is notionally the difference between "old" flying pay and tier 1 on the new scheme. The idea being that at the 7 year point you've got the same cash in the bank as the old scheme, it's therefore cost the mob the same, but you're now under another 6 year return of service. Be interesting to see how many people that's keeping in....The new RP is paid with a 3 year RoS per payment. Those in line for the second payment will be eligible in a couple of years which will be the proof of whether the two payment system has worked over the £70k for longer in a oner. The general dit around the bazaars is the first payment is being paid to people who are either already under a RoS or would stay in for at least three years to reach an EDP so is therefore just a sweetener for zero return for the MoD

Not that it’s very likely in todays shambles but that presumably means that in theory a pilot could actually be flying on operations before being in receipt of flying pay. Doesn’t seem very fair really!There's no theory about it, it's happening. The "fairness" is a generational thing though. In 20 years there won't be many people around who remember the old system so it will all become "fair".

Yep. A Typhoon QWI could be earning the same or less than OC Catering. Who will prob sky have graduated from the same IOT and already reached Sqn Ldr rank.

The real clever trick was when they changed the name of flying pay to RRP (recruitment and retention pay). More than just a nomenclature change.

I await with eagerness to see the long term effects of the change. I suspect (in fact I know) that the £70k (pre tax) lump to stay is not exactly having the desired effect. In fact, by that stage, the poorly paid second tourists are more likely to opt for a life elsewhere. Who’d have thunk it?!

BVSoon they'll take the "recruitment" bit out of it altogether. Who exactly is recruited (at age 18) based on a pay scale it will take 10+ years to reach, providing it's not changed again before then (see DARR)?

[ASRAAMTOO]

As I said, I’ve been gone a while. One assumes that the current system came about because some one suggested a retention bonus was the only way to keep trained pilots.

The bean counters said great idea but you’ll have to fund it from the existing Flying Pay budget!

Fu;)wits

[Herod]

Yes, I'm an old bugger, but I can remember when flying pay was 9/- (45p) a day!!

[Myra Leese]

Try joining the new pay structure on a FTRS contract. They did not have a clue how to integrate someone who had left as PAS but was rejoining under the new 2 Tier system so they just decided to pay me no RRP(F) at all initially and I know I was not the only one. After realising that I should be paid, they then used the incorrect level for the next year so I was underpaid for my first 18 months. I was treated so badly I put in a Service Complaint and despite having SO2 Pay and Pensions fully support my argument, the SC was not upheld because the investigating officer did not have a clue about aircrew pay. The RAF is no longer a fair and equitable employer(was it ever?) and I would caution any rejoiners to fully investigate their renumeration before signing on the dotted line, you could find yourself getting paid less than you thought.

[The B Word]

@myra - that doesn’t sound right at all. The transitional arrangements between legacy and post-2017 RRP(F) are well documented. Further, if SO2 Pay and Pensions truly did support that you were incorrectly administrated then they would just ask Defence Business Services (DBS) to correct your pay instantly. If not, then write back to the Pay Pol Team to ask for it to be corrected in accordance with pay policy rules.

The rules are fairly simple for rejoiners on FTRS under PAS. You basically keep the balance of AFPS75 or AFPS75/15 between your old PAS pay (index linked to the date that you join) and your new Main Pay rate on FTRS. That is known as abatement. If you get paid more in Main Pay than you earned under PAS then you don’t get paid any pension (HM Treasury rules). RRP(F) is non-pensionable and so is not subject to that abatement calculation. For officers at Flt Lt or Sqn Ldr that RRP(F) can be up to Tier 2 Rate 7 of around £22,700 - paid on top of Main Pay and any pension. So, as an example, let’s say you were a PAS Level 30 when you left on say £75k - in the interim CPI has made that amount £80k. If your new Main Pay is £55k, it means you can keep £25k of pension (the balance between £80k and £55k). Now you can add that £22.7k of RRP(F). So in this example, the total pay and pension is £102.7k.

So what are the down sides? Firstly, the retired PAS mate would be accruing 1/47th for every year of £80k of their current pay, as an FTRS mate they would only get 1/47th of £55k accruing. However, you could buy Added Pension under AFPS15 to try and limit the effect of that. Also, if the PAS mate left before age 55 on AFPS05 then they cannot keep any of their Early Departure Payment (which some confuse with pension - it isn’t unless you leave over age 55). Everyone’s choice pathway will be different.

Finally, how do they work out what rate of RRP(F) you come back on. They basically re-work out what level of RRP you would have been on if you hadn’t been PAS when you left. If it was before 1 Apr 17 they would work out your legacy RRP rate (Initial, Middle, Top or Enhanced) and then transitioned you to the new scheme. If you left after 1 Apr 17 then they will credit you with one extra Rate level for every year after 1 Apr 17 up to Tier 2 Rate 7. What they won’t do is credit you for flying rubber dog sh!t out of Hong Kong for an airline as further qualification criteria up the levels.

[The B Word]

Not that it’s very likely in todays shambles but that presumably means that in theory a pilot could actually be flying on operations before being in receipt of flying pay. Doesn’t seem very fair really!

Alternatively, there are some student Aircrew now getting RRP(F) whilst finishing flying training - just like those of us pre-2003 got initial rate flying pay after 72 weeks in flying training. I remember getting mine pre-OCU whilst waiting for TWU. What wasn’t fair was the use of end of OCU for initial rate flying pay for those post 2003 as long holds meant RRP or SP(F) wasn’t paid for years. Also, those that streamed or role disposed to different pathways all got their RRP at different times. Sadly, the ‘end of OCU’ still affects Tier 2 rates.

As for other Branches (or Professions) getting paid more than a FL Combat Air Pilot (normally the longest training pathway) over a similar length of service. Unlikely, I would offer. Officer Aircrew get an instant 1 year seniority ‘leg up’ as a Fg Off, only needing 2.5 years to Flt Lt. For all others, except EngOs, do 3.5 years to Flt Lt. Then, you need a minimum of 4 years in rank to promote from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr. For many, it is more like 6 years (or 2 tours as a Flt Lt) so 9.5 years.

So assuming that they promote after 9.5 and using the latest pay figures from the AFPRB report linked above, it looks like this:

After 3.5 years: Officer Aircrew are on £47.7k and non-Aircrew Officers (excluding EngOs) are on £41,261.
After 7 years (assuming that the individual completed a Flying Training serial as mentioned within a year of passing Officer training): Officer Aircrew are on £52.1k & £4.7k RRP and non-Aircrew Officers (excluding EngOs) are on £50.6k.
After 9.5 years: Officer Aircrew are on £55k & £4.7k and non-Aircrew Officers (excluding EngOs) are on £59.7k if they have just promoted to Sqn Ldr. They are about the same.
After 12 years: Officer Aircrew are on £56.5k & £15.7k Tier 2 R1 RRP(F) (which assumes it has taken 6 years to go through flying training!) and non-Aircrew Officers (excluding EngOs) are on £61.7k. The Aircrew mate is £10k better off as a Flt Lt!

Of course, after 12 years then the Officer Aircrew should be second tour complete and starting to nibble around getting promoted themselves. Further they will become eligible for the first of 2x£40k lump sums with a 3 year return of service each. So they will be streets ahead of their non-Aircrew peers from IOT/MIOT.

Thus, the statement is fake news when you look it at through this lens.

[Corporal Clott]

The B Word

Quite…….
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1537x974/img_8026_e09c662efaf70e65640830165c546882142351b7.jpeg

[Myra Leese]

The B Word

I would hope by now things are better understood but I am talking about April 18, just over a year into the new system. Facing a second month with no RRP(F) as my unit HR had no idea how to calculate it, I was passed directly to DBS. Their answer was ' we have no idea how to calculate this, if you find out let us know'. In fairness the guy placed me on a low rate to ensure that I at least got something until they could figure out how to pay someone in my position. As to SO2 Pay, they unfortunately involved a civil servant clown from 'the centre' who spends too much time sitting on his elbows. He spouted some complete horse manure about PAS and the new 2 tier system showing that he had no understanding of aircrew who had been PAS from the start in 2003. The SO2 wrote to their SO1 stating that this information was incorrect but the SO1 did not want to get involved so kicked it back to the SC for them to decide; bear in mind that the DB in my case had asked the SO2 to provide the answer as an SME which they did strongly in my favour. Unfortunately the DB was dazzled by the civil servant and totally ignored the advice of his SME and did not uphold my case.
The reason everyone struggled with how to pay us is that the policy was designed as a transition platform for those in Service at the time and I think that worked ok. However, there was no policy to cover rejoiners and there were paragraphs in JSP 754 which did not mean what they stated. Now that the transition period has ended there should be no issue but for a number of years it was pot luck on how you got paid.
I had finally had enough and chose to leave but DBS had the last laugh. As I was going out the door they decided that they had actually over paid me and wanted their money back. I appealed with the full support of my chain of command up to Gp Capt rank and won the appeal for lack of a policy to support their claim. So they took the money anyway and refused to give it back. If you think getting help from support staff is hard when in uniform, it's impossible once you leave. There is obviously much more to all of this but not for a public forum. I stand by my statement, the RAF is not a fair and equitable employer.

[alfred_the_great]

Have you contacted the Service Complaints Commissioner? She lives for cases like this…

[The B Word]

@myra - fair play. Sadly, the early days of re-joining were a little hit and miss from what I hear. There was also apparently a loose cannon giving out offers that didn’t quite stack up to pay policy (with lots of dissappointed individuals), that coupled to an allegedly poorly worded letter from an air officer that saw quite a few re-joiners vote with their feet. The system seems better sorted these days. Sorry to hear your experience - as ATG states, there is an ombudsman (not commissioner) that will look at this for you if you wish - details here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/service-complaints-ombudsman-appointment-announcement and https://www.scoaf.org.uk. Her name is Mariette Hughes.

If you believe you have been wronged, or a decision was incorrect, then it should be looked at and a further objective judgement should be independently made.

[trim it out]

The B Word

I would hope by now things are better understood but I am talking about April 18, just over a year into the new system. Facing a second month with no RRP(F) as my unit HR had no idea how to calculate it, I was passed directly to DBS. Their answer was ' we have no idea how to calculate this, if you find out let us know'. In fairness the guy placed me on a low rate to ensure that I at least got something until they could figure out how to pay someone in my position. As to SO2 Pay, they unfortunately involved a civil servant clown from 'the centre' who spends too much time sitting on his elbows. He spouted some complete horse manure about PAS and the new 2 tier system showing that he had no understanding of aircrew who had been PAS from the start in 2003. The SO2 wrote to their SO1 stating that this information was incorrect but the SO1 did not want to get involved so kicked it back to the SC for them to decide; bear in mind that the DB in my case had asked the SO2 to provide the answer as an SME which they did strongly in my favour. Unfortunately the DB was dazzled by the civil servant and totally ignored the advice of his SME and did not uphold my case.
The reason everyone struggled with how to pay us is that the policy was designed as a transition platform for those in Service at the time and I think that worked ok. However, there was no policy to cover rejoiners and there were paragraphs in JSP 754 which did not mean what they stated. Now that the transition period has ended there should be no issue but for a number of years it was pot luck on how you got paid.
I had finally had enough and chose to leave but DBS had the last laugh. As I was going out the door they decided that they had actually over paid me and wanted their money back. I appealed with the full support of my chain of command up to Gp Capt rank and won the appeal for lack of a policy to support their claim. So they took the money anyway and refused to give it back. If you think getting help from support staff is hard when in uniform, it's impossible once you leave. There is obviously much more to all of this but not for a public forum. I stand by my statement, the RAF is not a fair and equitable employer.
Yes but beards and pony tails. That's what will recruit and retain people.