YSSY single runway

[Wizofoz]

For much of yesterday, 16/12/2023, Sydney was on single runway ops because of staff shortages.

Now, while this is just outragous, it was also...well...fine.

Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions.

While of course the bussiest airport in the country should be resourced to use all it's runways, it should also be run as efficiently as possible. Yesterday showed that sensible, tactical runway use based on demand, rather than politically mandated splitting, including one of the longest taxis in the world, is hugely preferable.

It was an Emporers New Clothes moment, and it would be a shame if lessons weren't learnt.

[10JQKA]

Any idea what the average ground delay was ?

[unobtanium]

For much of yesterday, 16/12/2023, Sydney was on single runway ops because of staff shortages.

Now, while this is just outragous, it was also...well...fine.

Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions.

While of course the bussiest airport in the country should be resourced to use all it's runways, it should also be run as efficiently as possible. Yesterday showed that sensible, tactical runway use based on demand, rather than politically mandated splitting, including one of the longest taxis in the world, is hugely preferable.

It was an Emporers New Clothes moment, and it would be a shame if lessons weren't learnt.

longest taxi's in the world? Get out of you're little bubble it's not even close

[ShandywithSugar]

25 mins airborne

[shortshortz]

For much of yesterday, 16/12/2023, Sydney was on single runway ops because of staff shortages.

Now, while this is just outragous, it was also...well...fine.

Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions.

While of course the bussiest airport in the country should be resourced to use all it's runways, it should also be run as efficiently as possible. Yesterday showed that sensible, tactical runway use based on demand, rather than politically mandated splitting, including one of the longest taxis in the world, is hugely preferable.

It was an Emporers New Clothes moment, and it would be a shame if lessons weren't learnt.

So you think we should reduce Airservice staff numbers to be run Sydney more efficiently? yeah ok

[SHVC]

.

Minimal delays, short taxis, less fuel burn/emmisions.

.

Hahahahaha oh god, let’s not forget the airborne delays plus additional delays on bays at departing airports. If you’re a real believer in this climate rubbish get out of aviation.

[T54A]

SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.

[Wizofoz]

longest taxi's in the world? Get out of you're little bubble it's not even close

I said one of the longest. 18R at Schiphol is certainly longer- I've done it in LVO condition twice in the same day....

[Wizofoz]

25 mins airborne

Sure. When that's happening use both. My point is during quiet times making everyone taxi to/from the eastern runway is inefficient .

So you think we should reduce Airservice staff numbers to be run Sydney more efficiently? yeah ok

Not even remotely what I wrote . Perhaps a short course in English comprehension?

[missy]

SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.
Perhaps July for LHR and October for FRA and MUC :).
Seriously, the rosters are probably that tight that staff would be struggling to get their allocated holidays.
NATS were in Sydney back 10 years ago and most (all) of their recommendations were not acted upon.

After the introduction of the 3rd parallel runway, pre-LTOP report and I think it was from the Old Tower, we used to do 07 only on Saturday afternoons, weather permitting. Brought the crowds back.

[sunnySA]

SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.

AsA has recruited staff from all around the world. Over the past decade, SYD TWR has had ATCs on the roster who had previously worked in South Africa, New Zealand, Middle East, UK (eg LHR, LGW) and US (eg JFK, SFO). At no time did anyone sit down with them and ask them "what could we do better", or "here's a blank piece of paper, go for it" or hand them a green cap. Too many managers and ATCs with black caps, too many managers and ATCs with little or no interest in anything new or anything that involved them working harder or more creatively.

[das Uber Soldat]

I said one of the longest.
Citation needed. Because I can't think of an airport in SE asia where I've operated that didn't have a taxi route longer.

[Wizofoz]

Citation needed. Because I can't think of an airport in SE asia where I've operated that didn't have a taxi route longer.

I'm glad you've found the most critical part of my post. The ten odd minutes per arriival and departure added taxiing to the eastern runway are irrelevent because there's somewhere eles that's twelve. Thanks for putting me straight.

[neville_nobody]

It was probably ‘fine’ because it was operated at a lower capacity with flights cancelled to fit into the movement quota.

If SYD ran the normal number of movements on 1 runway it would be at gridlock.

[Wizofoz]

It was probably ‘fine’ because it was operated at a lower capacity with flights cancelled to fit into the movement quota.

If SYD ran the normal number of movements on 1 runway it would be at gridlock.
AFAIK everyone was flying a normal schedule. Satutday mid-day is actually pretty quiet.

[C441]

It was probably ‘fine’ because it was operated at a lower capacity with flights cancelled to fit into the movement quota.
…..For which the airlines will be mercilessly castigated.

[mikk_13]

SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.

They did. ASA solved staffing problems across the globe.

[das Uber Soldat]

I'm glad you've found the most critical part of my post. The ten odd minutes per arriival and departure added taxiing to the eastern runway are irrelevent because there's somewhere eles that's twelve. Thanks for putting me straight.
Don't cry at me. You made some ludicrous claim, its wrong, I'm pointing it out. Do you believe you're entitled to say whatever you want regardless of fact and we're all required to just nod in agreement?

The longest taxi route at YSSY is 5.2km.

Narita has a taxi route thats 9.5km long. Osaka, 7.5km. Singapore I've taxied DOUBLE the YSSY distance, over 10.5km when departing off 02R. 10.5x2=12 right?

There is nothing special about Sydneys taxi route.

[VHOED191006]

The difference between a 34L and 34R taxi is only 2-3 minutes. Are we seriously complaining over 2 minutes?!

[Wizofoz]

The difference between a 34L and 34R taxi is only 2-3 minutes. Are we seriously complaining over 2 minutes?!

Sure, Now compare 16L and 16R.

[Wizofoz]

Don't cry at me. You made some ludicrous claim, its wrong, I'm pointing it out. Do you believe you're entitled to say whatever you want regardless of fact and we're all required to just nod in agreement?

The longest taxi route at YSSY is 5.2km.

Narita has a taxi route thats 9.5km long. Osaka, 7.5km. Singapore I've taxied DOUBLE the YSSY distance, over 10.5km when departing off 02R. 10.5x2=12 right?

There is nothing special about Sydneys taxi route.

The point was it would be more efficient to use shorter taxis when traffic allows. You concentrated on a slightly hyperbolic turn of phrase rather than the actual point. I'm sure there is an award somewhere for being the guy that scotres the most points correcting irrelevent details.

[das Uber Soldat]

The point was it would be more efficient to use shorter taxis when traffic allows. You concentrated on a slightly hyperbolic turn of phrase rather than the actual point. I'm sure there is an award somewhere for being the guy that scotres the most points correcting irrelevent details.

If its an irrelevant detail, why did you even make up this nonsense claim, and then repeatedly defend its veracity? :D

What a bizarre thing to lie about.

Back to the thread, is this claim another 'irrelevant detail'?

Minimal delays
You sure about that? I copped a 1.5 hour COBT delay because of the 1 runway that day. Then further holding into YSSY.

[Wizofoz]

If its an irrelevant detail, why did you even make up this nonsense claim, and then repeatedly defend its veracity? :D

What a bizarre thing to lie about.

Back to the thread, is this claim another 'irrelevant detail'?


You sure about that? I copped a 1.5 hour COBT delay because of the 1 runway that day. Then further holding into YSSY.
Yeah- your tone and demeanor are REALLY motivating me to enter a productive discussion on the subject.

[VHOED191006]

Sure, Now compare 16L and 16R.
And? It's a 5 minute difference.

[SOPS]

SYD (and MEL) ATC would do well to send a team over to LHR/FRA/MUC to learn a bit. They make mountains out of mole hills and could be a lot more efficient.

And LGW to see how to use 1 runway.

[Wizofoz]

And? It's a 5 minute difference.

So do that on domestic ops- 6 sectors a day- and what do you get?

[transition_alt]

So do that on domestic ops- 6 sectors a day- and what do you get?

For that reason a SYD-MEL sector (for example) is planned with a 1hr 35min block time for approximately 1 hour flight time. It’s all built into the schedule

[VHOED191006]

So do that on domestic ops- 6 sectors a day- and what do you get?
If everything goes to plan, a schedule where I am on time, perhaps even early! Splitting ops into two different runways has to do with the flow of air traffic. It may seem quiet on the ground, but up there, perhaps not. Like what transition_alt said, the taxi times are factored into the scheduled times. If you get to you destination early, great! But chances are that you'll have to wait for your COBT, late passengers, late cargo, catering, the cleaners, or perhaps even your next aircraft for your next flight.

[RAC/OPS]

And LGW to see how to use 1 runway.

maybe send some pilots there too to see how to line up and go, and to vacate with minimum delay.

[missy]

And LGW to see how to use 1 runway.
Given both LHR and LGW are actively recruiting ATCs then there might be a few MEL and SYD TWR ATCs arranging their own visits!!

And if they did visit LGW they'd soon realise that its not a valid comparison to compare MEL 16, SYD 16R to LGW 26L or 08R.
Both 26L and 08R have taxiways that enter the runway prior to the landing threshold, so the departing is able to line up sooner than would be the case at MEL 16 B, or SYD 16R A1/B1/B2. Simple maths.
They'd see then application of meaningful COBTs, not a 20 minute compliance window (AUS -5 to +15minutes).
They'd see plenty of concrete, and very few runway crossings. They'd see tugs that move quickly.
They'd see Class D procedures.
They'd see other ATCs doing the best they can within the restrictions that they have.
They'd see a management team supportive of the line controllers.

And jet engines performing much closer to ISA 15C.

[DROPS]

Given both LHR and LGW are actively recruiting ATCs then there might be a few MEL and SYD TWR ATCs arranging their own visits!!

And if they did visit LGW they'd soon realise that its not a valid comparison to compare MEL 16, SYD 16R to LGW 26L or 08R.
Both 26L and 08R have taxiways that enter the runway prior to the landing threshold, so the departing is able to line up sooner than would be the case at MEL 16 B, or SYD 16R A1/B1/B2. Simple maths.
They'd see then application of meaningful COBTs, not a 20 minute compliance window (AUS -5 to +15minutes).
They'd see plenty of concrete, and very few runway crossings. They'd see tugs that move quickly.
They'd see Class D procedures.
They'd see other ATCs doing the best they can within the restrictions that they have.
They'd see a management team supportive of the line controllers.

They would also see ATC Planner/Assist positions manned to do the endless coord.
They would also Director Positions focussing purely on Runway sequencing instead of doing APP service, DEP service and planner position all at the same time.
They would also see computerised wake turbulence spacing with reduced separation minima (costs $$$)
They would also see aircraft being at 180KN at 20nm to touch down and pilots not whinging about it
They would also see aircraft in long level segments conifgured with power on and not whinging about it

Compare apples with apples, Any trained ATC can do that stuff given the resources and support.

[C441]

They would also see aircraft in long level segments conifgured with power on and not whinging about it
​​​​​​​No CDA?

[DROPS]

No CDA?

​​​​​​​Now thats funny!

[StudentInDebt]

CDA applied to arrivals into LHR and LGW, no level segment greater than 2nm below 6000’.

[Icarus2001]

maybe send some pilots there too to see how to line up and go, and to vacate with minimum delay.

Oh really.
When airports still build taxi exits at 90 degrees to the runway when they could build high speed exits?
When I cannot be told to line up behind the aircraft on final, I only get the line up after they pass me at the holding point.
Sure, blame the pilots.

[Ken Borough]

For that reason a SYD-MEL sector (for example) is planned with a 1hr 35min block time

It wasn't that long ago when all jet operators scheduled 1hr 20mins in each direction. We've really progressed, haven't we?

[RAC/OPS]

Oh really.
When airports still build taxi exits at 90 degrees to the runway when they could build high speed exits?
When I cannot be told to line up behind the aircraft on final, I only get the line up after they pass me at the holding point.
Sure, blame the pilots.

ATC don’t build airports you know! A few occasions when stopbars are u/s at ML we can use the conditional lineup. Quite often, in spite of having the clearance when the landing is still on final, some pilots haven’t even moved by the time the landing gets to the rapid exit - and not talking about Echo here

[transition_alt]

It wasn't that long ago when all jet operators scheduled 1hr 20mins in each direction. We've really progressed, haven't we?

They also started using 34R as the nominated northerly departure runway for Melbourne flights since then too

[Verbal Kint]

I remember it was fairly difficult to do 1:20 SYD/MEL with a 15 min taxi to 34R.

[cLeArIcE]

I remember it was fairly difficult to do 1:20 SYD/MEL with a 15 min taxi to 34R.
Its do-able high speed climb 330+ kts, cruise real low in the 200s just below vmo. High speed descent again. I've heard the fuel burn is eye watering but I wouldn't know I've never done it. :E

[DROPS]

The block time is pretty meaningless when your airline is already 90 mins behind schedule or has cancelled/consolidated your flight anyway.

Flying has become a miserable neccessity

[cLeArIcE]

The block time is pretty meaningless when your airline is already 90 mins behind schedule or has cancelled/consolidated your flight anyway.

Flying has become a miserable neccessity
Oh yeah flying domestically in this country is miserable with everyone. Its shocking to see how terrible Qantas is now too. (Who would actually pay for the service you yet in QF domestic business these days.)
But I don't care about any of that.. it's about the crew. You don't pay me for delays, so Evey minute i give to you extra is for free so... I guess fuel bill goes up instead ​​​​:)​​​​​​