Same Job Same Pay legislation

[brokenagain]

Labor’s same-job, same-pay laws pass parliament after deal with Lambie and Pocock (https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/07/labor-same-job-same-pay-laws-closing-loopholes-bill-to-pass-parliament-after-deal-with-jacqui-lambie-david-pocock)

This law looks set to pass parliament today. What effect, if any, will this have on aviation? Jacqui Lambie mentioned flight attendants as one group of workers that should benefit. Would it apply to pilots too? Hard to see any justification from Coward St why an A320 pilot should be paid any less than a 737 pilot flying RPT with a red rat on the tail.

[dragon man]

I would like to feel optimistic that it will help many in the aviation industry but feel sure that Qantas been the gorilla in the cage will have every excuse why it doesn’t apply and ultimately will go thru the court system for years as they did with the baggage handlers.

[Talkwrench]

I would like to feel optimistic that it will help many in the aviation industry but feel sure that Qantas been the gorilla in the cage will have every excuse why it doesn’t apply and ultimately will go thru the court system for years as they did with the baggage handlers.

Yep. QF will take it all the way to the high court every time. Nothing really changes much.

[Ladloy]

Labor’s same-job, same-pay laws pass parliament after deal with Lambie and Pocock (https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/07/labor-same-job-same-pay-laws-closing-loopholes-bill-to-pass-parliament-after-deal-with-jacqui-lambie-david-pocock)

This law looks set to pass parliament today. What effect, if any, will this have on aviation? Jacqui Lambie mentioned flight attendants as one group of workers that should benefit. Would it apply to pilots too? Hard to see any justification from Coward St why an A320 pilot should be paid any less than a 737 pilot flying RPT with a red rat on the tail.
Mainline SOs with different payscales in the same cockpit.

[framer]

Mainline SOs with different payscales in the same cockpit.
I can see QF arguing in court that an A-320 job in one state is different to a 737 job in a different state because there are lots of differences to point to, ( lots that the lawyers can bring up) but I can’t imagine them getting a win with SO’s on the same routes in the same metal with the same training departments and the same pay master, carrying the same pax. That really is the same job with different pay.

[ShandywithSugar]

That's why it has LINK on it.

[ewxpress]

Finally, a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. Can't we all work on a level playing field instead a Toxic one.

[ResBunny]

I think some of you have swallowed too much Government Kool-Aid.

This legislation is not about comparing pilots in one company flying a particular type of aircraft, with pilots in another company, even if they’re flying the same aircraft.

It’s about comparing pilots employed by Pilots-r-us-Labour-Hire/ Parc/Rishworth wages, with Big-Airline wages when Big-Airline wants to hire in some temps.

The temp pilot wages can no longer undercut the money paid to directly employed Big-Airline pilots (either on the Award or on an EBA).

Check with your Shop-Steward/Employment Lawyer.

Regards

[aussieflyboy]

That's why it has LINK on it.

This is the exact reason why the flash new A220 has Link on it!

[neville_nobody]

So this only affects labour hire to the mainline brand? They can outsource the entire airline, even to foreign owned carriers and that's perfectly acceptable but if you Labour hire to mainline then you have to get paid the same? How does that then affect codesharing because that has your brand on it? If an Australian airline code shares with third world country's airline with Australian flight numbers all over is that OK? Is this the new future that Labor has just created?

[hotnhigh]

And the band rolls on.
Nothing changes at QF. If you have a qantas asic, you are the enemy. They will do everything, up to including the high court, to manoeuvre around having to accept you as part of the long term vision. That strategy is about the only long term vision in the place.
Commands will remain close to 20 years forever. Short haul Qantas contracts will be managed to oblivion. As will the long haul stuff.
One only has to look at the total number of airframes international has.
At least they will be supplying full operational support to Alliance and network. In the mean time 737s depart Melbourne without any catering. Thats' what the joint has become.
Nothing changes. Qantas employee = enemy.
Once you get your head around that and accept it, you'll have a great day out.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Will this legislation put an end to the practice of growing another entity next to, say SH, and then (not) transferring business to that entity? Does this mean the wholly owned subsidiaries that already exist are the only non mainline entities from now on? Interesting legislation and it will be interesting to see how management ooze through the cracks to undermine it.

[neville_nobody]

Will this legislation put an end to the practice of growing another entity next to, say SH, and then (not) transferring business to that entity? Does this mean the wholly owned subsidiaries that already exist are the only non mainline entities from now on? Interesting legislation and it will be interesting to see how management ooze through the cracks to undermine it.

As it is reported it will encourage exactly that.

[framer]

I think the next round of the Bill ( part 2) which is being read in the New Year is supposed to deal with ‘sham’ businesses so maybe the process of starting or buying a small business with lower paid workers and then encouraging it to take over tasks that the core business historically undertook will be addressed there? It will be tricky to determine legally what is legitimate business practice as opposed to deliberately circumventing established Fair Work EA’s

[neville_nobody]

I guess the other question is how does this affect Alliance as they have a different EBA for every state and operation

[73qanda]

guess the other question is how does this affect Alliance as they have a different EBA for every state and operation
I haven’t read the bill but from what I’ve seen in the press I imagine Alliance would be ok there because the different operations have EBA’s and they aren’t bringing staff in from a labour-hire company to avoid paying the EBA rates.
The trickiest one for the Qantas lawyers will be cabin crew in my opinion. Often there will be crew doing the same job at the same time on the same aircraft but one will be on less pay because they have been employed through a labour-hire company. Jetconnect pilots may prove to be a headache because they no longer have an AOC. If there is no AOC I doubt Jetconnect can be considered an Airline, so is it a labour-hire company that this law was designed to target? The previous attempt by AIPA to bring Jetconnect pilots inside the tent might play out differently if tested in the current political environment. When they last tried Jetconnect was an actual Airline. It would be a good move to bolster SH considering the impending fleet renewal will most likely bring route changes out of NZ due to greater range capabilities of the new aircraft.

[Captain Fun]

Where is Jetconnect going to fall in the scope of this legislation given it is an NZ based employment agreement?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Where is Jetconnect going to fall in the scope of this legislation given it is an NZ based employment agreement?

I imagine if they are operating VH rego aircraft for an Australian company, there will be some restrictions.

[Beer Baron]

I can see QF arguing in court that an A-320 job in one state is different to a 737 job in a different state because there are lots of differences to point to, ( lots that the lawyers can bring up) but I can’t imagine them getting a win with SO’s on the same routes in the same metal with the same training departments and the same pay master, carrying the same pax. That really is the same job with different pay.
But the new S/O’s are working under the exact same EA as the existing S/O’s. You think the FWC going to take the new SO’s off LHEA10 and put them on what??

Even without the new pay scale, an existing 12 year A380 S/O is being paid about 85% more than year 1 380 S/O. It’s not illegal. When either of them take a promotion they will be on the same pay scale as each other for the rest of their Qantas career.

I hope the new legislation can stop Qantas’s race to the bottom, multiple subsidiary, IR tactics but the above scenario is not going to be affected.

[dr dre]

I don’t think we really know the specifics of how the new IR laws will affect the industry, they’ll take time to be embedded and then there’ll probably be lengthy legal challenges by unions against some employment practices so it’ll take take in the wash up to see what changes occur.

But in a broader sense seeing how the business lobby, the opposition and the media have lined up the attack the new laws tells me overall they must be a good thing for workers :ok:

[SweetBabyRay]

I guess the other question is how does this affect Alliance as they have a different EBA for every state and operation

Didnt QQ start “Bravo Airlines” on lower condition contracts that in turn screwed the QLD Fokker guys and girls by blocking them from moving onto the Ejet!

[framer]

But the new S/O’s are working under the exact same EA as the existing S/O’s. You think the FWC going to take the new SO’s off LHEA10 and put them on what??

Even without the new pay scale, an existing 12 year A380 S/O is being paid about 85% more than year 1 380 S/O. It’s not illegal. When either of them take a promotion they will be on the same pay scale as each other for the rest of their Qantas career.
Ahhh very good point that I wasn’t aware of sorry. I assumed ( I know I know) that the set up was similar to the cabin crew set up. Thanks for putting me straight.

[MickG0105]

Amidst the musings on this, you might just ponder what the concept of same job, same pay will do to seniority scales.

[dr dre]

Amidst the musings on this, you might just ponder what the concept of same job, same pay will do to seniority scales.

A business lobby/LNP talking point that’s been debunked (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jun/05/will-labors-same-job-same-pay-bill-hurt-more-experienced-workers-experts-respond#:~:text=It%20means%20by%20law%2C%20employers,your%20 ambition%20or%20work%20ethic.):What do employers say?According to material supporting the ad campaign launched by the business groups:
It means by law, employers will have to pay workers with little knowledge or experience exactly the same as workers with decades of knowledge and experience.

It means by law, you cannot earn better pay by working harder or longer, if your colleague does not share your ambition or work ethicWhat basis is there for the claim?The claim that workers with “little knowledge or experience” will be paid the same is extremely unlikely. Both workplace pay deals and awards contain different job classifications and grades so that more experienced workers or those exercising more skill are paid more.

The policy is directed at ensuring that people employed by two different methods – labour hire or direct employment – are not paid differently, not that all other distinctions, such as experience, are ignored.

[MickG0105]

A business lobby/LNP talking point that’s been debunked (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jun/05/will-labors-same-job-same-pay-bill-hurt-more-experienced-workers-experts-respond#:~:text=It%20means%20by%20law%2C%20employers,your%20 ambition%20or%20work%20ethic.):What do employers say?According to material supporting the ad campaign launched by the business groups:
It means by law, employers will have to pay workers with little knowledge or experience exactly the same as workers with decades of knowledge and experience.

It means by law, you cannot earn better pay by working harder or longer, if your colleague does not share your ambition or work ethicWhat basis is there for the claim?The claim that workers with “little knowledge or experience” will be paid the same is extremely unlikely. Both workplace pay deals and awards contain different job classifications and grades so that more experienced workers or those exercising more skill are paid more.

The policy is directed at ensuring that people employed by two different methods – labour hire or direct employment – are not paid differently, not that all other distinctions, such as experience, are ignored.
To paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies, they would say that, wouldn’t they.

And I am not talking about the legislation, I am referring to the underpinning concept.

Frankly, addressing a piece of reasoning as a "talking point", and then claiming to debunk it with more "talking points" doesn't evidence much in the way of critical thinking.

[dr dre]

To paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies, they would say that, wouldn’t they.

And I am not talking about the legislation, I am referring to the underpinning concept.

EAs which would be in line with legislation that doesn’t say you need to pay a 10 year pilot the same as a 1 year pilot. It says you can’t outsource to a labour hire company to pay a contracted 10 year pilot 50% of a legacy employed 10 year pilot.

Frankly, addressing a piece of reasoning as a "talking point", and then claiming to debunk it with more "talking points" doesn't evidence much in the way of critical thinking.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There is no doubt the opposition, the business lobby and the media want to kill these new laws, and they’re determined to do whatever it is to bring down the government that implemented them.

[Thumb War]

I’d guess that there won’t be any change to the 350 or 787 SO pay scales, but it might make a difference to the 380 (possibly 330) SO pay scales and the new vs old rates. Who knows. Those fleets will be gone in 10 years at the most, so not a huge difference or a saving grace for SO salaries unfortunately.

[dr dre]

I’d guess that there won’t be any change to the 350 or 787 SO pay scales, but it might make a difference to the 380 (possibly 330) SO pay scales and the new vs old rates. Who knows. Those fleets will be gone in 10 years at the most, so not a huge difference or a saving grace for SO salaries unfortunately.

At the moment the legislation only deals with work performed by other entities under labour hire agreements undercutting full time employees. It doesn’t deal with workers payed different pay scales under the same EA.

[MickG0105]

EAs which would be in line with legislation that doesn’t say you need to pay a 10 year pilot the same as a 1 year pilot. It says you can’t outsource to a labour hire company to pay a contracted 10 year pilot 50% of a legacy employed 10 year pilot.



What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There is no doubt the opposition, the business lobby and the media want to kill these new laws, and they’re determined to do whatever it is to bring down the government that implemented them.
Which part of "I am not talking about the legislation" do you seem to be having a problem with? As I stated, in what I thought was a fairly clear fashion, I was talking about the concept.

And I was not asserting anything, rather I was inviting a bit of critical thinking to be applied (tall order for some, I now know).

That concept, "same job, same pay", coupled with the fact that the award does not contemplate seniority scales for fixed wing operations other than "aerial application operations", might be cause for concern for anyone who actually thinks beyond simply parroting government talking points.

[dr dre]

Which part of "I am not talking about the legislation" do you seem to be having a problem with? As I stated, in what I thought was a fairly clear fashion, I was talking about the concept.

And I was not asserting anything, rather I was inviting a bit of critical thinking to be applied (tall order for some, I now know).

That concept, "same job, same pay", coupled with the fact that the award does not contemplate seniority scales for fixed wing operations other than "aerial application operations", might be cause for concern for anyone who actually thinks beyond simply parroting government talking points.

Then what are you talking about? Employers will suddenly realise they can eliminate yearly pay scales from EAs and demand it in negotiations in one of the best market for pilots in decades? They could’ve demanded the removal of yearly pay rates at any time in the past but that never happened. Maybe unions should push to eliminate yearly pay scales, and just go to the top rate for all employees regardless of years of service???

[MBA747]

Originally Posted by neville_nobody
I guess the other question is how does this affect Alliance as they have a different EBA for every state and operation

Didnt QQ start “Bravo Airlines” on lower condition contracts that in turn screwed the QLD Fokker guys and girls by blocking them from moving onto the Ejet!

So how is the Alliance EBA negotiations proceeding?

[BO0M]

Originally Posted by neville_nobody
I guess the other question is how does this affect Alliance as they have a different EBA for every state and operation

Didnt QQ start “Bravo Airlines” on lower condition contracts that in turn screwed the QLD Fokker guys and girls by blocking them from moving onto the Ejet!

So how is the Alliance EBA negotiations proceeding?
Last time I checked all of the ADL Fokker crews have gone across on to the Ejet on the Fokker EBA. QLD are currently negotiating a combined contract as well but as always negotiations arent going well thanks to a "draft EBA" the company tabled which was effectively a pay cut and would have failed the BOO test at FWA

[aussieflyboy]

Originally Posted by neville_nobody
I guess the other question is how does this affect Alliance as they have a different EBA for every state and operation

Didnt QQ start “Bravo Airlines” on lower condition contracts that in turn screwed the QLD Fokker guys and girls by blocking them from moving onto the Ejet!

So how is the Alliance EBA negotiations proceeding?

The company didn’t screw anyone, the Pilots that went to work on the Bravo contract did.

[Ollie Onion]

The company didn’t screw anyone, the Pilots that went to work on the Bravo contract did.

I love this attitude ^^^^^ Those already working in jobs telling people who don’t have a job that it is their fault the industry is in the shape it is, how about we see some of the A380 CPs going on strike to raise the conditions of those entering the Group? We are ALL collectively responsible for the state of the industry, you can’t blame someone for taking an inferior contract to get their foot in the door, it is not their sole responsibility to be the protectors of conditions.

[Mugsgame]

The company didn’t screw anyone, the Pilots that went to work on the Bravo contract did.

Yeah how dare we take the only job available in 2021. We should have kept packing shelves until everyone was ok with us going back to work. How selfish of me to not take the kids out of private school, and throw them into the state sytem, sell both cars, remortgage the house....

You f$$$ing muppet.

[SweetBabyRay]

Yeah how dare we take the only job available in 2021. We should have kept packing shelves until everyone was ok with us going back to work. How selfish of me to not take the kids out of private school, and throw them into the state sytem, sell both cars, remortgage the house....

You f$$$ing muppet.

I’m assuming your taking the piss!!

If not, mate a word of advise to all the unfortunate Fokker crew that have done so much for QQ for so many years, Think about what type of entitled Di@kneads you will have to fly with on the 190, the above is just an example! Plenty of options out there.
But what would I know I’m just a product of the State school system😉

[morno]

I’m assuming your taking the piss!!

If not, mate a word of advise to all the unfortunate Fokker crew that have done so much for QQ for so many years, Think about what type of entitled Di@kneads you will have to fly with on the 190, the above is just an example! Plenty of options out there.
But what would I know I’m just a product of the State school system😉

So what you’re saying is that he should have gone stacking shelves? Sounds like you’re the entitled d1ckhead. How dare he look after his family instead of ensuring your rates of pay are unaffected.

One thing I seem to notice about whinging pilots, is they seem to think others with families should be packing shelves instead of flying for what may not be the best EBA going around. But as soon as the shoe is on the other foot, jesus, you’d see them doing the exact same thing…..

[aussieflyboy]

Interesting to see some Qantas Group companies advertising to their outsourced cabin crew (Altara) to ‘bring them in’ to the Group. QF management aren’t the type to offer increased pay and improved conditions for no reason. Same job, Same pay has got them scared.