M1 Visas for gaining P.P.L in the U.S.A

[LittleRick]

On the 18/01/01 I began my journey to Florida to undertake the completion of my P.P.L. As we have naff weather over here I thought I would go to the States. When I arrived in Detroit to meet my connecting flight I had to pass through U.S Immigration.This is where my journey ended. According to the U.S Immigration officer I would not be allowed to conclude my journey to Florida because I didn't have the right Visa to undertake my P.P.L. The flying centre I was going to stated that I didn't require one and it stated this in their confirmation letter. Thankfully because there were no return flights that evening they couldn't deport me straight away! also fortunatly for me because my flight was late NW Airlines provided me with a hotel room this avoided me spending the night in a detention cell! This trip has cost me in the region £500 and I havn't even gained one flying hour.I was wondering if any one could shed some light on this situation I would be very greatful. I wouldn't want anybody to go through what I went through. My four week adventure holiday turned out to be
a 48hr nightmare.

[TBone]

I'm afraid, my friend, you are one of many unfortunate recipients of the USA's rather (over)zealous immigration policy and its enforcement.

Your school is absolutely right - you do not need any form of visa whatsoever for something like PPL training - it is, in effect, a holiday and the USA and UK have reciprocal 'no-visa' policies for short non-work visits (6 weeks or less ?).

M1 or J1 visas are only necessary for prolonged visits, the J1 allowing you to work (as a flight instructor at one of the academies that hire their graduates to offset some of the training costs, for example).

I nearly had the same happen to me many years ago but blagged my way out of it by showing a savings account book with a few grand in it (always take with you to the US), my return ticket, a credit card... I think I fished everything out I could think of to prove I didn't intend to stay. Oh, I also said I wouldn't do the flying :) Ahem. It also helps to have a residential address when you arrive - even the address of the flying school will do, and, as a last resort, say something like 'The Hilton, Detroit'.

Unfortunately, you have no right of redress in this case - immigration officials can refuse you entry because they don't like the look of your face and the law backs them up. Personally, I like the tough immigration stance of the US, but it does clobber the innocent as well as the guilty from time to time.

I suggest writing to the American Embassy at Grosvenor Square, explaining what has happened and ask for a letter, perhaps, to ensure that this does not happen again.

I'm afraid there is no rhyme or reason as to why it happened - you were just unlucky. Not much consolation, I know.

Contact the brass at....

24 Grosvenor Square
London
W1A 1AE
020 7499 9000

http://www.usembassy.org.uk/


P.S.. used to live in Frodsham meself :)

[This message has been edited by TBone (edited 22 January 2001).]

[TBone]

Further to the above..

Having peaked my interest, I delved into this a little further.

The source is http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/vwp.htm

Here's what the US Embassy has to say, and I find it somewhat confusing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Travel Without A Visa: Most visitors to the United States enter the country as tourists. With the introduction of visa free travel to citizens of 29 countries, it is now possible for many travelers, including British citizens, to enter the United States without a visa under the Visa Waiver Program (WVP). Visa free travel is also available to qualified travelers who enter the United States on business. In order to enter the United States visa free you must meet the requirements outlined below.</font>

These requirements basically state - be a conviction-free tourist or businessman.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Please Note: Visa-free travel does not include those who plan to study, work or remain more than 90 days. Such travelers need visas. If a U.S. immigration officer believes that a visa-free traveler is going to study, work or stay longer than 90 days, the officer will refuse to admit the traveler.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Nonacademic (M-1) Visa: A student wishing to pursue a course of study which is not principally academic in nature at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution such as a post secondary vocational or business school requires an M-1 visa.</font>

Does this mean you need an M1 if you are to be a student at a flight school, regardless of the length of the course, or you need an M1 if the study course is longer than 90 days ??

Strictly speaking, your immigration officer might just have been correct http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Worth finding out what the case is - M1s are easy to get anyway, and if for some reason you can't get one... well, I can't advocate lying to a customs officer, but I think your next visit should well be to Disneyland :)

[TAF Oscar]

Good Grief! There but for the grace of God etc. I went in through MCO last year, explained to Customs what I was doing and they replied "good luck with the course".

I wonder if it was only a problem because of the transfer flight? If FL customs turn you back it's lost business for FL...

Don't let it put you off Rick, try again (you will indeed be on holiday to Disneyland, won't you?) - it's absolutely well worth it.

TAFO

[Trainee pilot]

LittleRick:

Thanks soooo much for what you wrote! I am off to Florida in 2 weeks to do my JAA Night/Multi. I was told by the Flight School that you only need a Visa if you are COMMERCIAL training and that a Waiver would suffice! Now I will give customs the address of the Hotel and tell them the truth (that I am there to relax and to see the lovely sites of the good old US of A!) be it from 3000ft....all I need is my trusty VISA and a little in cash with a return ticket! Thanks for the posting otherwise I may have been returning sooner rather than later.
One question, would it be okay to say that I am just Hour building incase they see my licenses?

[mad-andy]

I agree it can be a problem.
If you intend to do a `study course` in the US as you can see from the above post you do need a Visa.I have been to the US a few times for training and hour building and I aways tell them I am here for my hols and I do intend to rent a plane at some point for the fun of it.I have been to Florida,LA,and San Diego and never had a problem yet with the flying thing.......BUT!!!.Went to the Sun and Fun Fly-in at Lakeland last April and went via Phili ,I didn`t have no intention to fly on this trip and got the 5th degree from the official.
I think the guy who said show em your cash and return tickets then tell em what they want to hear and you should be OK..God luck next time and have fun with your flying you will love it there.

[Wolf-In-Sheeps Clothing]

LittleRick,
Getting the correct Student Visa will also help if (God forbid...!) Something happens whilst you are out there. What I mean is...Hospital/Police/Fire - whatever might happen then you have your arse covered!
I really do recommend getting the correct visa, I was out in Long Beach a couple of years sgo and a fellow Brit happily came out and started training...
To cut a long story short, he got into some trouble with local law enforcement agency (I was going to say "c**tstable" but I won't!) and when it was found that he didn't have the correct Visa, some brown smelling stuff didn't half hit the fan!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

P.S Also make sure that you are correctly insured. I found out that with some Schools you were not covered when taxiing the A/C !!
Bizarre or what!? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

------------------
Watch Out....
To Err is Human....
To Forgive is not Company policy...!

[sd]

If you are hour building or PPL training it is recreational and no-one will be upset by this during the course of your stay. I have been in the US many times and never had a problem.

DO NOT be tempted with the old 'Im a pilot' line, it will impress them not one bit and will only have them ask questions and draw conclusions.

I have been asked about my flight case. They are happy that you are going to hire a plane and indeed don't give a stuff what you do with your recreational time on ...HOLIDAY.

A PPL is the same as a course in scuba diving. It is not a vocational course you are there for nor is hour building.

You are there for a holiday and to indulge in a hobby...stick by that and don't try to impress with your aspirations towards commercial flying.

GA is great over there and well worth the trip.

[slim_slag]

You don't want to get deported from the States. They have f***ing ridiculous immigration rules and the INS lost the ability to be even slightly reasonable a few years back. I had a Kiwi chum banned from entering for 10 years because she admitted having overstayed her visa when a younger lass. She admitted this to the embassy in NZ when doing the decent thing and applying for a work visa. They just barred her on the spot. She could marry a Yank and still not be allowed into the country. Some would say even if she could come in, it would be a high price to pay.

Best thing to do with the immigration boys is shut the f*** up and only answer the questions they put. Don't get cute with them and don't joke - they consider that suspicious. They are not the brightest of fellows and don't even know their own rules. They consider themselves to be the outer line of defence for the rest of the world's scum (who all want to screw the US taxpayer of course) and so you should show them the respect they do not deserve.

And remember, they like the Brits as their figures say most go home. Just imagine what they are like to some of those 'funny folk' who turn up on their borders.

[Mach.82]

Hi there,

I have been working in the states for 6 years as Director of Ops in an International Flight School that issued M-1 visa.

Reading many answers to your message, I would first of all point out that there's a mighty big difference between personal experience and the mere facts. Regardless of what might have happen to many, the US Immigration law states that you CANNOT attend any kind of school in the states without an appropriate visa.

However the degree of flexibility of their rules is in the hands of the immigration officer that that day happen to deal with you... the "ALIEN". And given the average IQ level and attitude problem it makes it a quite tricky task.

Any school that states otherwise is just trying to get more business and/or just don't know what they are talking about.

Needless to say that if you tell them that you are in vacations, while you actually go through your flight training, nobody will never know it. But without a return ticket your chances to turn off all their alarms is quite high.

If I could give you little advice call the FAA FSDO office of the area where you wish to find a school and ask them to reccomend you a good training facility, possibly a FAR-Part 141 approved. That will avoid you to bump into all the phantom schools with flashy ads but no substance, that work out of trailers and run C150 with a lawnmover engine conversion mantained by the local junkyard attendent.

The way I see it if the flight school issues M-1 visa and is Part-141 approved (even if you follow a Part-91 course) you can be sure that it has a minimum of solidity and that the FAA checks regularly their maintenance logs and their instructors' work. It might be slightly more expensive that the others but it's worth your training, your life and they are less likely to run away with your money.

Last but not least: run away from the offers that seam too good to be true. A Cessna C172 well manteined, well insured and well equipped CANNOT run for less than $60/hr wet.

That's my humble opinion, feel free to e-mail me if you need any info.

Mach.82

[Bear Cub]

Mach - what on Earth gives you the impression that LittleRick wants to do an FAA PPL?

Why do so many responses to these forums automatically assume that anyone travelling to the USA wants to go the FAA way?

Travelling from the UK to gain a PPL - not a commercial, a PPL, really does suggest that he MAY benefit from going to a school that can train him for a CAA/JAA PPL - and that would not likely be a 141 school.

By all means, promote your situation - but give both sides of the story.

------------------
Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[EX FTE]

Just like to concurr with Mach.82 on what he says. The INS guys at the airport are the final arbiters in these matters.

Some more bad news for you - you now have an entry on your INS entry record. You know when they swipe your passport through that computer? It pulls up your INS file with all the details of your visits.

I used to travel in & out of the US via Toronto on a fortnightly basis. I used to waltz through on the old I-94 waiver and a story of 'business trip'. One day I got pulled and they confronted me with my record of entries & exits and said it was clear to them that I was living or working there. They even checked my wallet for US credit cards, drivers permits etc. I was sent back and they annotated my INS file with ' Visa required for entry'. Fortunately my employers wised up and got me the H1B I needed.

That said, even now with my H1B (one down from a Green Card) I still get stopped when going in on vacation since my visa is a work visa! This happened on my last hours building trip to Florida, had to to go through Immigration twice after re-filling out the green I94 and not the white one!!

So, let me add my comment to the M1 visa debate. Technically you do need one as you are there to study and pay fees to an educational/vocational school. Yes you can get in by bluffing it BUT if something goes wrong you will be thrown out. Your travel insurance will also be void as you are there under false pretences. And finally, most airlines want pilots to have unrestricted passports. You really dont want one that says DEPORTED on it!

Schools that are approved for visa issue are easy to find. I echo Mach.82s comments on cost versus quality. I flew in some really dodgy Cessna 172s that were only $52 an hour. I left that school after 20 hours and paid the extra $15 an hour at a different school. A much better place in my opinion.

Good Luck

[britavia]

Ditto to all that has been said here. Just remember that the INS never ask innocent questions. They do have the power to send you back if they think you're trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

Dealing with them is a bit like dealing with the CAA. Too big, too much power and nobody apparently overseeing them!

[slim_slag]

Ex FTE,

Some more bad news for you - you now have an entry on your INS entry record. You know when they swipe your passport through that computer? It pulls up your INS file with all the details of your visits.

You are correct on the records they keep. I remember once entering the US and they were also able to pull up the details of my many flights around the world which got me there from London - they are sneaky little buggers. Luckily the nasty little sniffer dog they set on me had a cold that day. Its amazing what you pick up on your clothes in these cafes. True story there, a mate of mine had his insides checked after the dogs sniffed his clothes after a particulary heavy AMS trip. He's not a pilot by the way.

I don't actually reckon that LittleRick got deported though. If you promise to go quietly no black mark goes on your record. He voluntarily left the US (they let him go stay in a hotel overnight) so he could turn up the next day with a sensible story and get in. If I was LittleRock I'd tell the 'deported' story to the boys down the Local but tell another story to the scary moustached immigration officers. Anybody know why they wear sunglasses when they are inside?

[SKYYACHT]

Having worked for a major US air carrier for seven years, and having sat through numerous lectures on US Immigration policy and INS procedures, I would heartily endorse the statements that you should get a US Visa. You are embarking on a course of Study, and they are quite legitimate if they send you home. I would recommend that you use a comany such as The Visa Service based in London - it saves a hell of a lot of waiting/queueing at Grosvenor Square. You should realise that any state that asks you to declare that you have never been associated with the overthrow of a lawful government on the Visa waiver paperwork takes it all VERY seriously!

All the best

Tailwinds

:)&gt; )

[SKYYACHT]

Having worked for a major US air carrier for seven years, and having sat through numerous lectures on US Immigration policy and INS procedures, I would heartily endorse the statements that you should get a US Visa. You are embarking on a course of Study, and they are quite legitimate if they send you home. If you get sent home, then you will be flagged on their system as a deportee, and this could prejudice you in gaining future access to the US without a lOT of hassle. If you harbour dreams of joining the ranks of the professionals, I wouldnt risk it. I would recommend that you use a comany such as The Visa Service based in London - it saves a hell of a lot of waiting/queueing at Grosvenor Square and only costs a few quid. You should realise that any state that asks you to declare that you have never been associated with the overthrow of a lawful government on the Visa waiver paperwork takes it all VERY seriously!

All the best

Tailwinds

:)&gt; )