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AnotherFSO
30th Nov 2023, 05:48
Just another idle musing.

I'd not previously heard of this circumstance of a Meteor shooting down a Canberra. From Wikipedia: "During the Suez Crisis, the RAF performed high altitude reconnaissance flights over Syria by English Electric Canberra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Canberra) aircraft from bases in Cyprus. Lacking radar to track the aircraft, the Syrian Air Force developed a ground spotter network that reported information by telephone to intercept the flights. On 6 November 1956, a Syrian Meteor shot down a Canberra of No. 13 Squadron RAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._13_Squadron_RAF), which crashed in Lebanon."

Which other unusual or little-known aircraft combat combinations can you think of? I'm particularly interested in jets, but there's no need to limit it to that. Open slather please...

DaveReidUK
30th Nov 2023, 06:38
I thought the Canberra had been shot down by a MiG-17 ?

Previous thread on the topic: Operation Musketeer (Suez) - PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/227532-operation-musketeer-suez.html)

campbeex
30th Nov 2023, 09:08
Lightning vs Spitfire (https://www.key.aero/article/lightning-versus-spitfire-clash-generations)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/872x820/light_55b9f3d54b4aa4302378b0fca6a6c58bee32c0aa.jpg

Quemerford
30th Nov 2023, 10:22
Not little-known, but the Gnat/Ajeet vs Sabre and Hunter vs Sabre clashes during India/Pakistan wars are an obvious candidate.

sablatnic
30th Nov 2023, 11:11
Heard of a Piper L4 downing a Fieseler Storch on 11/4-1945, does that count as unusual?

treadigraph
30th Nov 2023, 11:21
Irresistibly reminded of Airfix's Dog Fight Double sets, though I think they were fairly sensible combinations...

Zaxis
30th Nov 2023, 12:24
How about Spitfire vs Spitfire? RAF vs Egyptian AF 1947. Last RAF air to air kill.

chevvron
30th Nov 2023, 13:58
I remember the tale of a Bf109 which was downed during WW2 - by an Avro Rota autogyro (or it could have been a Cierva C30).
Doing radar calibrations south of Portsmouth when the '109 jumped him thinking it would be an easy kill.
After trying to dodge him, the 109 dived on him, the autogyro pilot simply slowed right down very quickly and the '109 overshot him straight into the sea.

DogTailRed2
30th Nov 2023, 14:53
On the subject of dissimilar air combat (re: Lightning v Spitfire) wasn't Brazil involved in a war with a neighbour. Brazil had P51's and the neighbour had MiG 21's? The Mustangs all ended up at the CAF in exchange for T33's.
A night fighter Dornier 217 downed a Russian B25 over Germany during a night raid. B25 was on a training flight and lost.
Zero's v Piper Cubs, Pearl Harbour.
Tomcats v Zero's in "Final Countdown".

teeteringhead
30th Nov 2023, 14:59
I remember the tale of a Bf109 which was downed during WW2 - by an Avro Rota autogyro (or it could have been a Cierva C30).
Doing radar calibrations south of Portsmouth when the '109 jumped him thinking it would be an easy kill.
After trying to dodge him, the 109 dived on him, the autogyro pilot simply slowed right down very quickly and the '109 overshot him straight into the sea. Heard a similar tale about a Lysander. Had a 109 on its tail so slowed down - flaps, slats and anything else; 109 had to fly past and was hit by a Bren Gun from the Lysander's door....

Good tale even if not true.......

Dr Jekyll
30th Nov 2023, 15:02
During a Belize crisis in the 70s there was much speculation about how Ark Royal's Phantoms and even Buccaneers might be able to down a P51.

kenparry
30th Nov 2023, 15:05
Last RAF air to air kill was not a Spitfire - .............. the infamous Jaguar shootdown by an RAF Germany F-4

longer ron
30th Nov 2023, 15:34
One of the most amusing combats was Blackburn Roc v Heinkel 59,D.H. Clarke DFC,AFC wrote an autobio - it sits happily on my bookshelf :)

What were they like to fly D H Clarke DFC,AFC

“A well known engagement involved a 2 AACU (Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Unit) ROC, L3085, and Plt Off D. H. Clarke, who had painted a red ‘Saint’ (the Leslie Charteris character) in a red-framed yellow diamond on each side of the rear fuselage of his ‘own’ Roc. On 26 September 1940 he was sent out to search for survivors in the water 15 miles (24 km) south-west of St Catherines Point. With Sergeant Hunt in the gun turret – which, unusually for 2 AACU Rocs, was fully armed – he took off in the late afternoon. As he instituted a square search in the area indicated, he noticed what he thought was a Swordfish also searching about 3 miles (5 km) away.After about 45 minutes of fruitless search in the gathering gloom, he suddenly noticed that the Swordfish, now only half a mile away, was in fact a twin engined floatplane. Out of curiosity, wondering what it was, he flew towards it: and then suddenly realised it was a Heinkel He 59, a German aircraft probably on the same air-sea rescue task as himself. Unsure as to whether he should open fire on an aircraft on such a humanitarian mission, he flew across its nose with Hunt training his turret at it.

As he did so the German nose gunner opened fire with his 7.9mm machine gun, and Hunt returned fire, his tracer pouring into the Heinkel’s fuselage. After the pandemonium and shock of his first action, Clarke swung on to a parallel course, and re-established communication with Hunt , whose intercom lead had been pulled out. The Heinkel turned for France, skimming the waves. Happily the twin engined bi-plane was even slower than the Roc, with a top speed at sea level of only 137 mph (220 kph), and Clarke was able to gain on his adversary; although he was still faced with the prospect of having to drop a wing to enable Hunt to open fire, even though his propeller was skimming the wave tops.

At 300 yards range he dropped a wing, and Hunt opened fire with another broadside. The Heinkel replied from all three gun positions, nose, dorsal and ventral, a single machine gun in each, but Clarke had to lift the wing after only a few seconds to avoid side-slipping into the sea, causing the last few rounds of Hunt’s burst to shoot harmlessly up into the air. The two aircraft continued these brief exchanges of fire for about 25 minutes, until the coast of France was looming up. Both aircraft were hit, and one of the Heinkel’s gunners stopped firing; but just as Clarke was about to turn away, the Roc was hit in the engine.

It faltered, and Clarke switched to the reserve 17 gal (77 ltr) tank, pulling up and away. Just as he thought he might have to ditch, the Perseus picked up, and he nursed the damaged aircraft back to Gosport. But before he could taxi in the engine stopped, out of fuel. Clarke claimed the Heinkel as ‘Damaged’.

On his return his groundcrew found two incendiary bullets in the main fuel tank, above which he sat. They had entered low down in the petrol, which had extinguished them; slightly higher, in the explosive fuel/air mixture above, and the Roc would have been ‘missing in action’. This action was almost certainly the nearest the Blackburn Roc ever came to destroying a German aircraft in combat”.

Quemerford
30th Nov 2023, 16:26
How about Spitfire vs Spitfire? RAF vs Egyptian AF 1947. Last RAF air to air kill.

Probably not the last, but F/L John Granville-White's MiG-15 kill on 29 June 1953 post-dates the above by six years or so.

BSD
30th Nov 2023, 18:34
Wasn't there a Royal Australian Navy Se Fury that shot down an Auster which managed to get airborne without a pilot from Bankstown?

The RAN got called in after the RAAF couldn't get it in a jet fighter, IIRC.

treadigraph
30th Nov 2023, 19:24
Wasn't there a Royal Australian Navy Se Fury that shot down an Auster which managed to get airborne without a pilot from Bankstown?

The RAN got called in after the RAAF couldn't get it in a jet fighter, IIRC.
There was!

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/18328

Dr Jekyll
1st Dec 2023, 05:44
Probably not the last, but F/L John Granville-White's MiG-15 kill on 29 June 1953 post-dates the above by six years or so.

Wasn't that while flying with the USAF? RAF pilots have made kills while flying with the USAF in Korea and the FAA in the Falklands. If they count as RAF kills then the last one was 1982.

Procrastinus
1st Dec 2023, 08:40
The Russians tried to shoot down Ladislav Bezak's Zlin 226 with a jet while escaping to the West, but luckily failed. He said after - 'It was the best aerobatic display I ever flew'!

NutLoose
1st Dec 2023, 15:32
Want to watch one?

A Venezuelan Air Force F-16, piloted by Lt. Beltran Vielma, shoots down a rebel OV-10 Bronco near El Libertador Air Base during the second coup attempt of 1992, on November 27. Vielma used the M61 Vulcan cannon of his F-16 to destroy the light attack aircraft. The rebel pilot, Lt. Carlos Mictil, ejected safely and was arrested later. The Venezuelan coup attempts of 1992 were attempts to seize control of the government of Venezuela by the Hugo Chávez-led Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement-200. The first coup attempt took place on 4 February 1992, and was led by Chávez. A second coup attempt on 27 November 1992, took place while Chávez was in prison but was directed by a group of young military officers who were loyal to the Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement-200. On 27 November 1992, the OV-10s were widely used by mutinous officers who staged the second attempted coup against former President Carlos Andrés Pérez. The rebels dropped bombs and launched rockets against police and government buildings in Caracas. Four Broncos were lost during the uprising.

https://youtu.be/nDASW6X0XoU?feature=shared

DogTailRed2
1st Dec 2023, 15:39
https://www.super-hobby.co.uk/zdjecia/0/0/0/18925_rn.jpg

Mechta
4th Dec 2023, 11:29
3 May 1953 Polikarpov Po-2 vs Lockheed F-94 Starfire.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x301/po_2_0ab967841d4a9c2b00d79cd9e56ec27cd94f522c.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x405/f_94b_starfire_21dcb85f12ecf66c0de41217e34d05f5820f6e19.jpg

The biplane won!

The F-94 slowed down to keep the 94mph Po-2 in sight to get a shot, and is believed to have stalled and crashed whilst doing so.

Herod
4th Dec 2023, 13:02
Sea Fury v Mig-15

Quietplease
4th Dec 2023, 14:06
The 13Sqn PR7 was being flown by a 58Sqn crew. It was a Meteor that got them. The morning flight had been unsuccessful and they returned in the afternoon. Medium level cloud so they trying to get the pics from about 15,000 looking for the Migs coming down from Russia. Don''t think it was a dogfight, they didn't see it coming.
Pilot and nav survived but jump seat didn't.
On landing they had to persuade the Lebanese army they were not Israeli spies.
Later met the pilot who was a BCal 707 captain. He was quite surprised I knew his history. There was a D notice but the Telegraph seemed to miss it and printed a very short piece about it.
Canberra versus almost anything up around 50,000 was a winner but once you got down to medium levels the Meteor was better, you could pull so much more g and much more manoeuvrable.
Had many dogfights with this combination usually with Neill Williams.
Think the details are pretty accurate but the usual disclaimer due to passing time and senility.

Brewster Buffalo
7th Dec 2023, 11:10
The 13Sqn PR7 was being flown by a 58Sqn crew. It was a Meteor that got them. The morning flight had been unsuccessful and they returned in the afternoon. Medium level cloud so they trying to get the pics from about 15,000 looking for the Migs coming down from Russia. Don''t think it was a dogfight, they didn't see it coming.
Pilot and nav survived but jump seat didn't.
On landing they had to persuade the Lebanese army they were not Israeli spies.
Later met the pilot who was a BCal 707 captain. He was quite surprised I knew his history. There was a D notice but the Telegraph seemed to miss it and printed a very short piece about it.
Canberra versus almost anything up around 50,000 was a winner but once you got down to medium levels the Meteor was better, you could pull so much more g and much more manoeuvrable.
Had many dogfights with this combination usually with Neill Williams.
Think the details are pretty accurate but the usual disclaimer due to passing time and senility.

There is a description of this event by the pilot - Fl Lt Hunter- on the International Bomber Command Centre Losses Database....link below. The Canberra was carrying an extra crewman whose task was to keep a look out for hostile aircraft using the sextant periscope!

Loss of Canberra (https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/290293/)

Brewster Buffalo
7th Dec 2023, 11:29
3 May 1953 Polikarpov Po-2 vs Lockheed F-94 Starfire.





The biplane won!

The F-94 slowed down to keep the 94mph Po-2 in sight to get a shot, and is believed to have stalled and crashed whilst doing so.

Various aircraft were tried to try and deal with the night time nuisance raids by the Po-2 including T-6 Texans and Fireflies as well as the F-94 with little success,
The F-94 that managed to shoot down one had to deploy its undercarriage and flaps but after that success stalled and crashed. Another F-94 collided with another Po-2 and also crashed.

Quietplease
7th Dec 2023, 12:10
There is a description of this event by the pilot - Fl Lt Hunter- on the International Bomber Command Centre Losses Database....link below. The Canberra was carrying an extra crewman whose task was to keep a look out for hostile aircraft using the sextant periscope!

Loss of Canberra (https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/290293/)
The sextant was used to make sure we were not trailing. You certainly wouldn't pick up an aircraft. When we were doing the milkrun over Yemen out of Khormaksar we would head south out to sea, find the trail level and then drop down a couple of thousand feet before heading north.The Orange Putter tail warning radar never worked.

megan
8th Dec 2023, 02:29
Air America pilot Ted Moore and flight mechanic Glenn Woods were flying a Huey in Laos during the Vietnam conflict and Woods shot down a AN2 with his AK-47.

During WWII 2d Lt. Owen J. Baggett was the co-pilot of a B-24 shot down by Zeros while making an attack on a railroad bridge at Pyinmana, about halfway between Rangoon and Mandalay. Descending in his chute he was strafed and wounded, he fired four shots from his Colt .45 at a Zero that flew close by, one shot hit the pilot in the head, killing him and causing the Zero to crash. In the POW camp following capture he was surprisingly received and feted as a hero by the Japanese camp commander, a colonel, for his fine shooting at the Zero. This is an example of the Japanese military’s peculiar Bushido code, which placed great emphasis on honor and valor in battle.

teeteringhead
8th Dec 2023, 08:25
Wasn't there a Royal Australian Navy Se Fury that shot down an Auster which managed to get airborne without a pilot from Bankstown? And wasn't there a Harrier (?) in Germany that someone banged out of; Harrier continues flying East (!!!) until taken out by Lightning or F-4?

Or was that another bar room Urban Myth??

Quemerford
8th Dec 2023, 08:43
Various aircraft were tried to try and deal with the night time nuisance raids by the Po-2 including T-6 Texans and Fireflies as well as the F-94 with little success,
The F-94 that managed to shoot down one had to deploy its undercarriage and flaps but after that success stalled and crashed. Another F-94 collided with another Po-2 and also crashed.

I think one event may have been conflated into two: the F-94B which collided with the Po-2 was 51-5476, on 27 Feb 1952. 1/Lt Jack E Brindley and 1/Lt Richard D Cunningham killed (both 68th FIS). I can find no record of another F-94 loss due to Po-2 action.

dixi188
8th Dec 2023, 08:43
There was a Harrier that crashed in the Bristol Channel when the pilot was accidently ejected due to something getting caught in the seat. The aircraft flew for quite a while without the pilot.

treadigraph
8th Dec 2023, 09:04
And wasn't there a Harrier (?) in Germany that someone banged out of; Harrier continues flying East (!!!) until taken out by Lightning or F-4?

Or was that another bar room Urban Myth??
Harrier story (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/177593-lightning-shootdown-harrier.html#post1927265)...

Also a pilotless Mig 23 crashed in Belgium about 35 years ago after making its way westwards over the Iron Curtain...

chevvron
8th Dec 2023, 11:08
There was a Harrier that crashed in the Bristol Channel when the pilot was accidently ejected due to something getting caught in the seat. The aircraft flew for quite a while without the pilot.
Departed from Dunsfold on a test flight just as I went off duty. I was already out of the door when somewhere about Boscombe Down (who'd already closed for the day) the drogue 'chute on his seat deployed and took the poor pilot with it. A shepherd was vectored onto it over the Bristol Channel and confirmed the guide rail had been acitvated and the seat was empty.
Our second 'incident' of the day, a few hours previously I'd had a 'MAYDAY' from an AA5 over Basingstoke which descended on a PFL and when the instructor told the pilot to climb away the engine just quit.

Quemerford
8th Dec 2023, 12:25
Departed from Dunsfold on a test flight just as I went off duty. I was already out of the door when somewhere about Boscombe Down (who'd already closed for the day) the drogue 'chute on his seat deployed and took the poor pilot with it. A shepherd was vectored onto it over the Bristol Channel and confirmed the guide rail had been acitvated and the seat was empty.

The pilot's body was found by a gamekeeper near Winterbourne Stoke. I remember this one well.

chevvron
8th Dec 2023, 14:03
The pilot's body was found by a gamekeeper near Winterbourne Stoke. I remember this one well.
Just west of Boscombe and about half a mile south of Stonehenge.