YMML queue rwy 16 yesterday

[Dj Dave]

YMML yesterday 25 aircraft waiting for takeoff. Taxi time 90 minutes.

​​​​​​09 would have been ok , why not use it, only a few arrivals into Essendon on 17 you could send a few departures in the meantime until the next Essendon arrival comes.

what about gate holds?

Anyone from ATC able to comment?

[aussieflyboy]

90 minute taxi is an embarrassment. Why would you continue to approve aircraft to push back. Hold them at the gate! When a Jetstar lands let a Jetstar pushback, when an International lands let an international pushback ect. This would ensure 10,000+ L of fuel aren’t wasted and gates are still available when an aircraft lands.

[Slippery_Pete]

Heads need to roll at ASA management.

A mate who was involved told me they waited more than 90 minutes and there was
- a few return to blocks as people ran short of fuel
- people shutting down engines to try and scrape enough fuel together to legally depart
- 2000’ spacing between arrivals and only one departure in between if you were lucky

ATC have made it very clear in the past that they don’t use 09 for departures because they just don’t know how to, haven’t got the SIDS - nor training on how to do it.

ABSOLUTE disgrace.

[ramble on]

We need to send some ATC folk for work on exchange in the USA - LAX, ORD, NYC, DFW TWR, TRACON, RAPCON - to experience, learn and bring back better ways to deal with high density traffic and bad weather. The traffic and weather they deal with daily there are on another level.

[slice]

Hey man:E you've got to see the BIG picture! 1.5 hrs of sweet Jane Benjamin for me!:}

Oh I forgot QF SH is block time only! Sorry guys.

[das Uber Soldat]

It was a joke. Coordinator for pushback clearance, ok, we call, he gives approval. He did this despite knowing we had a 90 minute taxi delay ahead of us. Why the **** can't they just issue a start time like literally any other 3rd world country?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1824x831/planes_0d3731955a3f816e312d34cc285c0ca0a907b9ef.jpg


Take a bow Melbourne.

[Ollie Onion]

Crazy, happened to me a few weeks ago, there was no mention of delays so we pushed back and taxied for 48 minutes! Honestly, just tell me there is a fricken big queue and give me a start time so I don’t piss away 1500kg of fuel sitting in a queue.

[le Pingouin]

Where do you put the arriving aircraft if you're all still parked at the gate?

[blakemc]

We need to send some ATC folk for work on exchange in the USA - LAX, ORD, NYC, DFW TWR, TRACON, RAPCON - to experience, learn and bring back better ways to deal with high density traffic and bad weather. The traffic and weather they deal with daily there are on another level.

Airports like JFK are notorious for queues for 30+ aircraft waiting to takeoff :rolleyes:

[aussieflyboy]

Where do you put the arriving aircraft if you're all still parked at the gate?

1 for 1 champ, when one of the same flavour calls tower on final you let one of the same flavour push back.

[SHVC]

- people shutting down engines to try and scrape enough fuel together to legally depart

ABSOLUTE disgrace.

How did they start their engine again?! Where I’m at we need clearance that it’s clear behind and only way we can do that is if someone is connected or hand signal.

[le Pingouin]

You burn less on the ground than the guys going around and around in the air. Why did you decide to push back? Your company is well aware of the situation on the ground. Why are they launching flights inbound when they know the situation on the ground?

So you get an arrival and one pushes back to join the departure queue as number 19 champ?

[Bleve]

Airports like JFK are notorious for queues for 30+ aircraft waiting to takeoff :rolleyes:
My JFK record is 84, with 2 hours 40 minutes from pushback to takeoff.

[waren9]

When ATC pay the fuel bill, the fix will be overnight.

Had a large start delay out of China the other night. At least they kept us at the gate. We took off within 3 minutes of when they said we would.

[ER_BN]

In the good ole days AOI VOL 2 said ATC was supposed to be safe, orderly and expeditious.

If only you bus fliers knew the real facts…..

Just be thankful it was safe….orderly and expeditious…..ROTFALMAO

C’mon just think of it as stimulating the economy, some controllers made nearly half a million this year, so I’m told.

We all know that money compensates for a lot of fatigue.

Is it a problem that they work almost 1000 hrs of OT a year???

Y’all keep them eyes on the TCAS now.

Y’all have a good one!

[Done and done]

This has been ongoing for decades, it annoys ATC as well I can assure everyone of that...

ATC can only work with the crap infrastructure its been provided with by the @r$# clowns that lease/own the joint.

Melbourne was due a 3rd RWY before the GFC in 2008, the place has not fundamentally changed since it was built 50+ years ago.

My advice to all those out there, please complain to your company, get them to complain to Melbourne airport...if enough of that occurs they might finally do something about it...

Although the wind may have been favourable, the cloud base most likely precluded 2 RWY operations utilising RWY 09 for arrivals RWY 16 departures due YMEN operations and circling for RWY 17......

Firing adhoc 09 departures into what was occurring to the east of Melbourne would have been unhelpful and reckless, at some point workload and complexity will overwhelm an individual.

This is an infrastructure issue, nothing more nothing less.

Don't blame ATC for RWY 16 IMC, we've always been doing our best with a ****zen sandwich.

[Lapon]

Why did you decide to push back?

Because you've got to join the queue at somestage.
The whole point being discussed here is that if start times/sequences were given you would be in the queue without having to push.

Its not as simple as saying the companys know whats going on so why send aircraft inbound either. The airlines will need to make that decision a few hours prior and they won't have a clue what the departure queue is going to look like that far out.

[missy]

YMML yesterday 25 aircraft waiting for takeoff. Taxi time 90 minutes.

​​​​​​09 would have been ok , why not use it, only a few arrivals into Essendon on 17 you could send a few departures in the meantime until the next Essendon arrival comes.

what about gate holds?

Anyone from ATC able to comment?
Hi, roughly what time was this?

[aussieflyboy]

COBT for departures - it’s that simple

[SandyPalms]

Perth use COBT's for departure every morning. Why can't a place like Melbourne? How embarrassing. But Melbourne has always had crap ATC, we've had many thread about it, can't imagine why it would change now.

[Capn Bloggs]

Made it to the paper:Airservices under fire over long ground delays at Melbourne AirportAirlines are struggling to understand why dozens of flights were placed into a 90-minute queue for takeoff at Melbourne Airport on Wednesday, when bad weather reduced operations to a single runway.

Rather than keep flights at the gate, aircraft continued to be added to the queue with up to 25 planes lined up at one point.

As a result two United Airlines’ flights were cancelled when it became apparent the crew would run out of hours, and other flights had to return to the gate to top up fuel supplies. Pilots were fuming about the debacle, which came as Airservices Australia sought to increase its charges to airlines for air traffic control and fire and rescue.

“It was a joke,” said one pilot caught up in the mayhem.

“Co-ordinator for pushback clearance, OK, we call, he gives approval. He did this despite knowing we had a 90-minute taxi delay ahead of us.”

READ MORE: Airservices cans plan for ‘inclusive’ changerooms (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/airservices-abandons-plan-for-inclusive-changerooms-after-employees-express-concern/news-story/b88de011676cf3b3c9677a100683f15c)

An Airservices spokeswoman said the ground delays (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/domestic-flight-chaos-blamed-on-airspace-restrictions-between-brisbane-and-sydney/news-story/aefc099bf1f6273a10eb9fea299df99c) were “purely weather and safety-related to safeguard the travelling public”.

It’s understood strong winds made the use of the east-west runway unsafe, and low cloud limited air traffic controllers’ ability to put aircraft through on the north-south runway.

Melbourne Airport chief of aviation Jim Parashos confirmed strong wind gusts resulted in “significant delays to arrivals and departures as well as the cancellation of some flights”.

“Melbourne Airport has submitted plans to the Commonwealth government for a parallel north-south runway that will help reduce delays for airlines and passengers in circumstances such as yesterday,” Mr Parashos said.

Single runway operations were again in place at Melbourne Airport on Thursday but delays were being kept to a minimum.

The issues capped off a day of chaos for airlines and passengers, with afternoon thunderstorms in Sydney adding to the disruption.

Qantas was forced to cancel 23 flights due to weather across Qantas domestic, international and QantasLink.

Another three services and two Jetstar flights had to divert to Canberra to refuel after being placed in lengthy holding patterns over Sydney.

All made it to Sydney within 90 minutes of their scheduled arrival time.

Virgin Australia cancelled 29 flights in total but was able to recover the majority of guests on Thursday services.

A Sydney Airport spokeswoman said storm activity was the issue although both runways remained open.

The upheaval came as the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission seek the views of the aviation industry on a proposed price increase by Airservices for its air traffic control (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/all-too-frequent-flight-delays-at-sydney-airport-blamed-on-air-traffic-control-sickies/news-story/024d535667ed43b1ad19351a72abe237) and aviation fire and rescue operations.

Four price increases were proposed between April 2024 and January 2026 which would collectively increase the price for airline services by 19 per cent.

The planned hike was the first since 2015, and followed a 2 per cent decrease in 2019.

ACCC commissioner Liza Carver said Airservices was the only declared provider of air traffic control and aviation firefighting services, so any price increases must be assessed carefully.

Figures provided by Airservices Australia showed an airline flying a Boeing 737-800 from Melbourne to Brisbane currently incurred a cost per passenger of about $13.

From next April that would climb to $14 a passenger.

International flights currently incurred a cost of about $35 a passenger, which would jump to $37 after the first increase in 2024.

“We want to hear the aviation industry’s views on Airservices Australia’s proposal, in particular the domestic and international airlines that operate in Australian airspace,” said Ms Carver.

Airservices has been in the process of recruiting more air traffic controllers after repeated shortages caused major disruption for airlines earlier this year.

The recruitment drive aimed to add another 80 controllers by mid-2024.

[Mr Mossberg]

We need to send some ATC folk for work on exchange in the USA - LAX, ORD, NYC, DFW TWR, TRACON, RAPCON - to experience, learn and bring back better ways to deal with high density traffic and bad weather.

That won't work, Australian ATC's will start telling the FAA controllers how it's done in Australia.

Where do you put the arriving aircraft if you're all still parked at the gate?

This is how every Australian ATC reacts when disgraceful service is brought up, defending the indefensible.

Rest assured that Jase pockets over a million a year regardless of the service level.

The US had it's busiest day EVER a couple of days ago. Australia pulls it's dick over being at 80% over 3 years after covid, woo-hoo! Yay Australia :D

Until the airlines hold ASA to account things will NEVER change.

[ER_BN]

Ah Mr Mossberg, once again ‘bewdiful”

but we are second best, I mean a UNITED Pilot once assured us!

and ML SY BN triangle one of the densist air traffic areas in the world….

Really? MUAC in Europe ( roughly size of VIC ) moved about 5000 jets above F245 in a day

When I looked at WRA / ASP / BKE combined as an example in 2015 umm 250 ? 300 mpvements a day

Just not worth getting in a pissing contest!

[sunnySA]

Salvation (2024).

Establishment of the National Operations Management Centre (NOMC).
As part of efforts to realise airspace and network efficiencies in preparation for the arrival of the Civil-Military Air Traffic Management System (CMATS), Airservices Australia has created the National Operations Management Centre (NOMC). The NOMC will be responsible for the provision of nationally focussed network, aeronautical information and operations management.

NOMC (https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/s23-h89.pdf)

[Troo believer]

Try London to experience how it should be done. Seriously backward archaic practices here in Oz. Why the hell are we still reading back a PDC when DCL is available. The poms call you when to start. How simple is that? Even the Kiwis are way ahead with the use of DCL in AKL. The time and workload stuffing around with a PDC read back is the stuff for the third world. Oh how silly of me, that’s us.

[compressor stall]

Ah the old MEL SYD BNE is busy thing. Maybe from point to point on a nice orderly flow along pretty standard airways.

Europe with multiple airports with more movements than SYD or MEL scattered randomly anll over the place and aircraft departing all over the place. There is no comparison. SYD at it worst is tumbleweed town compared to a lot of Europe on a normal day.

And yes top marks for London controlling.

[Ollie Onion]

Where do you put the arriving aircraft if you're all still parked at the gate?

It is not hard, do what every other busy airport in the world does, have slot times, Expected Approach times and a start delay programme. At LHR they use to push us back from the gate, taxi us to a remote part of the airfield where we would shut down and await our start time..... Better than burning the gas.

[ER_BN]

Compressor Stall exactly!

A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.

But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?

I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.

Done and Done.

Perhaps you miss the point of the thread .

it wasn't ML RWY 16 IMC....it was the FAR QUEUE!

[directsosij]

Try London to experience how it should be done. Seriously backward archaic practices here in Oz. Why the hell are we still reading back a PDC when DCL is available. The poms call you when to start. How simple is that? Even the Kiwis are way ahead with the use of DCL in AKL. The time and workload stuffing around with a PDC read back is the stuff for the third world. Oh how silly of me, that’s us.

it makes a lot more sense when you consider that Australia is only good at 3 things: digging holes in the ground, making coffee and selling each other overpriced houses. As a country we’re not exactly cutting edge in any other industry.

[Done and done]

Compressor Stall exactly!

A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.

But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?

I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.

Done and Done.

Perhaps you miss the point of the thread .

it wasn't ML RWY 16 IMC....it was the FAR QUEUE!


Having to sit there and watch it is excruciating, not being able to do anything about it as an operator is infuriating.

There is a better way.

If you're waiting for line controllers to provide a solution I believe we are all just done and done to be honest.

You might suggest that Airline management is crap, you lot should try Airservices....

We're at the point we'd take on Joyce...I know, I can't believe I just wrote that!! But we are a basket case at Airservices.

[SIUYA]

As a country we’re not exactly cutting edge in any other industry.

PRECISELY :D

And you only need to look at the recent performance of Qantas, OPTUS, and the Banks to see a clear demonstration of the **** performance of big business here in the (un)Lucky Country.

[Done and done]

Yes we are DROPS, totally over it...

I'll retract that comment on Joyce, what was I thinking...perhaps anyone is better than what we've got!!

[aviation_enthus]

It’s not as simple as “blame ASA”.

Why doesn’t Melbourne have 4 runways?
(why are they debating which way a 3rd runway goes?? All that’s going to make is another Sydney - crosswind/one runway creates chaos)

Why doesn’t Perth have 2 parallel runways?
(The worst airport in Australia by far, also makes a 42% profit margin during the end of COVID!!)

Why did it take 50 years to start building Western Sydney?

Why were the Wagners (Wellcamp) laughed at when they showed a bit of vision?

Why does Melbourne still NOT have an airport train?

Why did it the initial plan for Western Sydney NOT have a train connection?


DO YOU SEE A TREND?!

We are lazy. On top of this policy does not encourage innovation or improvement. OH&S is a case in point, when was a bad “safety improvement” ever removed or reviewed as to its effectiveness?!


Change the landing fee structure so the airports have some “skin in the game”:
- first 5-10 minutes of airborne delay “free”
- from 10 minutes the landing fees are pro-rata down to $0 by 30 minutes.

Watch how fast they build runways!!
Or even high speed exits, which you’d think had never been invented….

As for ASA, build proper STARS that didn’t need the f$&@ing stupid “descend via” calls. We are all saying this but has anyone asked why?! Anyone been to the USA?
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!

[morno]

As for ASA, build proper STARS that didn’t need the f$&@ing stupid “descend via” calls. We are all saying this but has anyone asked why?! Anyone been to the USA?
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!

I have been and can assure you that you aren’t correct. Last time I went into LAX, “Descend via the XYZ STAR”.

[MickG0105]

... As a country we’re not exactly cutting edge in any other industry.
There's W² (Whinging and Whining). We seem to be routinely punching above our weight in that field of endeavour.

PRECISELY :D

And you only need to look at the recent performance of Qantas, OPTUS, and the Banks to see a clear demonstration of the **** performance of big business here in the (un)Lucky Country.
Yes, it's astounding that you never see incompetency or systems failures impacting businesses overseas.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1156x470/screenshot_20231201_093636_chrome_8854653e7bb03198107ea93e16 1e549b8d1cfc6c.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1697x473/screenshot_20231201_093940_chrome_9e922433ade60b3f34399700de e49ce48bf038ec.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1796x514/screenshot_20231201_091006_chrome_77d82983cf55add5ad2d4867ee 8ca80739bf317c.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1855x638/screenshot_20231201_091353_chrome_66e9336fcf44fc60cd15d5df57 78315b49cee27d.jpg

[aviation_enthus]

I have been and can assure you that you aren’t correct. Last time I went into LAX, “Descend via the XYZ STAR”.

Thanks for the technical correction. Yes that’s the call (it’s been a while since I went to the USA), my point remains though, they’d don’t then call you another 3-4 times to give you different altitude requirements because they’re designed into the STAR.

Why do we say “descend 9000 via the STAR” when there’s no height requirements on the chart?

We’ve already been cleared the STAR as part of the airways clearance, it’d be like requesting a level change in the cruise and ATC saying “cleared to climb FL300 via flight plan route”

Anyway, like I said, not particularly smart or efficient.

[deja vu]

Where do you put the arriving aircraft if you're all still parked at the gate?
You tow aircraft that are ready for push back from the gate to a remote stand where later push back will not be required, leave one guy on the headset until ATC give a start clearance 10-15 mins before departure.
They did this effectively at Pudong , Beijing, Chen Lap Kok and even Kai Tak over 20 years ago.

[rodney rude]

I hope this thread is drifting along the lines of "lets not blame the controllers'. I seriously think they do the best job they can do with what is available to them. They are great - its a system issue, and Australia's BS corporate culture of get less people doing more work, cut costs, up profits and reward execs. And this corporate greed culture leaves a trail of underperforming processes and practices and totally burned out workers.

Hang in there controllers.

From grateful and understanding pilot.

[SandyPalms]

I hope this thread is drifting along the lines of "lets not blame the controllers'. I seriously think they do the best job they can do with what is available to them. They are great - its a system issue, and Australia's BS corporate culture of get less people doing more work, cut costs, up profits and reward execs. And this corporate greed culture leaves a trail of underperforming processes and practices and totally burned out workers.

Hang in there controllers.

From grateful and understanding pilot.

Start clearances and COBT's are easy to implement. That wasn't done. I think ATC is to blame. Other airports do it better. Why can't Melbourne? Just wait till the greenies get involved here with all the wasted CO2 simply because ATC is too disengaged to do something. I get it, but if I just gave up because it's all too hard, what would be the predicted outcome?

[Mr Mossberg]

I hope this thread is drifting along the lines of "lets not blame the controllers'. I seriously think they do the best job they can do with what is available to them.

Apart from the brainwashing the controllers are subject to, "Guardians of the Sky" ( :yuk: ) and all the other rubbish over the years, nobody blames the controllers. ASA management will tell you repeatedly how good they are. RS and JH are masters of this garbage. You might want to have a look at those two fellows super balances.

Australia is the master of mediocrity.

​​​​​​​I'd recommend a table outside at the Proud Bird close to LAX airport at peak arrival times. That'll tell you everything you need to know about any major Australian airport.

[Awol57]

Start clearances and COBT's are easy to implement. That wasn't done. I think ATC is to blame. Other airports do it better. Why can't Melbourne? Just wait till the greenies get involved here with all the wasted CO2 simply because ATC is too disengaged to do something. I get it, but if I just gave up because it's all too hard, what would be the predicted outcome?
COBT's are not something us line controllers can just implement. But start clearances, I am not sure why that wasn't done. It's a very easy fix, or just hold people on the bay a bit longer. I wasn't there so don't know the issue but those would be 2 go to problem solvers over here in the West, and we have similar parking issues especially on the western side of the aerodrome.

[LeiYingLo]

But start clearances, I am not sure why that wasn't done. It's a very easy fix, or just hold people on the bay a bit longer.

They did start holding people at the bay, but only after someone must’ve first looked out the window and seen the carpark they’d created.

[Awol57]

They did start holding people at the bay, but only after someone must’ve first looked out the window and seen the carpark they’d created.

Yeah fair enough, I mean the build up can happen quickly if auto release was suspended or similar, especially if you already had a bunch pushed back, but the delay on a bay is our only real tool (and start clearances but that's sorta same same). Without knowing the circumstances of the day, its all just speculation on my part. No one goes to work planning to hold 25 or so at the holding point though

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

1 for 1 champ, when one of the same flavour calls tower on final you let one of the same flavour push back.
Ah, if only airline schedules worked like that.

[Lead Balloon]

This is the product of the privatisation of the airports, the ‘commercialisation’ of Airservices and the failure of the Commonwealth Parliament to do its job.

The airports are doing their jobs very well, thank you very much: Making money.

Airservices is doing its job very well, thank you very much: Just ask its highly paid executives.

The Commonwealth Parliament has failed to ensure the Airports Act is administered to achieve its objects and has failed to hold Airservices to account.

[compressor stall]

Compressor Stall exactly!
A city pair statistic conveniently becomes the world's busiest air route.
But hey why let truth get in the way of an alternative fact when you are out to impress some dumb senators?
I fondly remember in the late 2000s standing in the foothills above Geneva at dusk with a wonderful Australian controller. Marvelling at the sheer number of contrails reflected in the light.
We both burst out laughing, nothing said, as we knew we were thinking the same thing.
!
Just saw the Eurocontrol data pop up on my socials.
Europe did about 24,000 airline flights a day last month - source Eurocontrol
Australia did about 1400 - Source ASA. (and ca. 14% of those are between SYD & MEL)

Europe and Oz are about the same size.

[RickNRoll]

It’s not as simple as “blame ASA”.

Why doesn’t Melbourne have 4 runways?
(why are they debating which way a 3rd runway goes?? All that’s going to make is another Sydney - crosswind/one runway creates chaos)

Why doesn’t Perth have 2 parallel runways?
(The worst airport in Australia by far, also makes a 42% profit margin during the end of COVID!!)

Why did it take 50 years to start building Western Sydney?

Why were the Wagners (Wellcamp) laughed at when they showed a bit of vision?

Why does Melbourne still NOT have an airport train?

Why did it the initial plan for Western Sydney NOT have a train connection?


DO YOU SEE A TREND?!

We are lazy. On top of this policy does not encourage innovation or improvement. OH&S is a case in point, when was a bad “safety improvement” ever removed or reviewed as to its effectiveness?!


Change the landing fee structure so the airports have some “skin in the game”:
- first 5-10 minutes of airborne delay “free”
- from 10 minutes the landing fees are pro-rata down to $0 by 30 minutes.

Watch how fast they build runways!!
Or even high speed exits, which you’d think had never been invented….

As for ASA, build proper STARS that didn’t need the f$&@ing stupid “descend via” calls. We are all saying this but has anyone asked why?! Anyone been to the USA?
“cleared the XYZ arrival” - no other calls required because the STAR has all the height and speed requirements built in. No wasted radio calls!!
Wet aren't lazy. The working week is getting longer, not shorter.

It's the investors who are playing us for mugs. Look at the toll roads for a similar investment model. Buy a monopoly and milk it for all you can. They can't build a runway at Melbourne but they have more car parks than you can shake a stick at with all the finest flyovers and roads to conveniently drive into them.

Macquarie bank was buying up all the taxi licences. The price of a licence went from something like 150,000 to 500,000. Then Uber appeared out of nowhere to spoil their party.

[VHOED191006]

It's happening all over again!

[VHOED191006]

Why can't they use runway 27? The crosswind component would only be 15-20 knots?

[43Inches]

Anyone who has flown out of Melbourne and Sydney knows how bad Melbourne is in terms of procedures and spacing. Melbourne has much greater available airspace, but has a ridiculous set of STARs and SIDs that over complicate and hamstring the controllers. Simple fixes like having Turbo-prop SIDs that turn much earlier allowing much less spacing between jets and slower traffic. In Sydney a TP is turning over houses at 500ft AGL, usually with a significant vector that gets them out of the way of following jets, so a jet can pretty much roll as the TP lifts off. In Melbourne they have to climb to 1000ft AGL, and then usually get a vector that keeps them in the way of jet traffic for a full extra departure slot, mainly because they don't want to vector a TP over some houses. Then there's simple things like Sydney will line up and depart trafffic with half the distance on final Sydney will. Which means in general they get almost two aircraft away in a gap Melbourne can.

In short Melbourne could greatly increase the rate of departures by having more adaptive procedures for mixed traffic, and letting low noise traffic like turbo-props depart over noise sensitive areas, to get out of the way of faster traffic. Then implement Jet and Turboprop holding points so that you can pop the right aircraft into each gap, ie Jet then TP up its backside, or TP with large vector and jet up its backside, etc etc....

[keepemseperated]

ASA management will tell you repeatedly how good they are. RS and JH are masters of this garbage. You might want to have a look at those two fellows super balances.


Absolute joke. How JH remains in the defined benefit fund, when the organisation pushed hard for everyone to leave is a mystery, yet says so much about the double standards. He has been there 30 odd years, even at 5% and with a FAS circa $1M his balance would be $6M.

Nothing has improved during his reign and yet the government keeps renewing his contract.

[aussieflyboy]

They have push back clearances on.

Maybe the companies need the bays and prefer to push back

10 Bays are free in the ‘Q’ lane…

[airdualbleedfault]

25 a/c idling for 30 to 90 minutes, but hey we need to drive EVs to clean up the planet, the gummint said so. Let's not even go near the 5hit5how that is Perth atc, 100s of tons of fuel burnt unnecessarily every week and for what? Because allegedly Air lack of Services Australia won't employ enough ATCs? You honestly could NOT make this 5hit up

[gamma69]

How is the delays today? I bet horrible with the low cloud and drizzle.

[directsosij]

25 a/c idling for 30 to 90 minutes, but hey we need to drive EVs to clean up the planet, the gummint said so.

In Australia, the aviation and shipping industries generate approximately 13,910,000.00 tonnes of C02 per annum where as transport is responsible for 95,120,000.00 tonnes (2020).

https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector

[ACMS]

It took us 1 hour from pushback to airborne at 12:30 today……I’ve never seen it this slow before, Runway 27 could have been used but wasn't……. The mind boggles…..

[missy]

More concerning is who is the replacement.

If it is from within can we not just expect more of the same? Sounds like a small Australian airline we knew recently.
I'd be guessing, perhaps Vivienne King who was appointed as AsA's Chief Operating Officer in August.

[Lookleft]

It took us 1 hour from pushback to airborne at 12:30 today……I’ve never seen it this slow before

I think you will be seeing it a lot more often though. At least you can drink the water!

[cLeArIcE]

A genuine question. Number 1 at holding point. Aircraft landing and another about a 5 mile final. Why is it that some tower controllers take so long to clear you to line up? The landing aircraft is halfway down the runway before you call me and by the time we respond and get moving 30 seconds wasted. That adds up over a day.
There is 1 controller at Melbourne that won't even clear you if traffic is 6 or 7 miles out :ugh:
Admittedly, virgin taking the rapid at 10 kts doesn't help.

Secondly, why can't you line Up multiple (suitable) aircraft at once? 16 deps, 1 at E and the other at full length. Soon as one is over the fence fire the next one etc.
Not having a go or anything, just trying to understand why things take so dam long in this country (melb is by far the worst) compared to flying anywhere else.

[Awol57]

Could be a multitude of reasons, but maybe they needed to do a next call for your departure instructions, or they were waiting for a release from departures. Or they could just be slow. Hard to hang a hat on a reason, could be a mix of all of the above. 5nm I would suggest would almost always be a gap, but there could be wake turbulence, or some additional spacing required on the same SID due to varying aircraft speeds. Not really familiar with ML ops so can only give a couple of general reasons. There isn't a reason why you can't line multiple aircraft up, though if you have arrivals as well, that's a consideration. Nothing quite as exciting as having a few lined up to depart 03 at PH and having someone pop out of JT and straight onto final for 03.

[No Idea Either]

In all fairness, I think ML is ‘usually’ the quickest at departures. I routinely get a clearance to line up and depart with traffic at 3 miles. SY comes second with about 3-5 miles and BN the worst with a mighty dash at 5-7 miles and we sit there for another 3 minutes waiting……and waiting…..and waaaaaiiting for it to arrive………..

[43Inches]

In all fairness, I think ML is ‘usually’ the quickest at departures. I routinely get a clearance to line up and depart with traffic at 3 miles. SY comes second with about 3-5 miles and BN the worst with a mighty dash at 5-7 miles and we sit there for another 3 minutes waiting……and waiting…..and waaaaaiiting for it to arrive………..

Don't beleive everything you are told, Melbourne say traffic within x miles, when it's actually further out, rarely is the separation less than 4-5 miles between arrivals.

[hmmmitsjustme]

What is the staffing like in the tower? Are they short like seemingly everywhere else or is it normally fully staffed?

[Mr Mossberg]

Nothing has improved during his reign and yet the government keeps renewing his contract.

The bloke is an imbecile, surrounded by yes men and women. That airline management are doing nothing about him, i.e. insisting on some sort of performance criteria is baffling. I would suggest that they're staying quiet should their own 'performance' be brought under the microscope.

United Airlines are saying they've had their best ever year, now that is saying something. Aircraft orders and deliveries are staggering, recruitment is hammering. Yet good ole Australia will sit around, making hammering staff on conditions a priority, rather parking jets than getting them in the air making money.

Just take a look at United's flights out of Australia and tell me who our national airline is.

If you don't see how much of a joke this country's airline/aviation industry is then you're a bit dim.

[MickG0105]

...
Just take a look at United's flights out of Australia and tell me who our national airline is.
​​​​​​...

For August, there were around 410 return flights between Australia and the US - United operated 113 (27.6 percent) of those with an average LF of 75.4 percent; the QF group operated 213 (52.0 percent) with an average LF of 82.0 percent.

In terms of pax, again for August, there were in aggregate something like 134,059 pax moved between the two countries - United carried 47,218 (35.2 percent); the QF group carried 89,013 (66.4 percent).

[RickNRoll]

They had the foresight to build terminal four with a lot of shopping and parking. Best shopping and parking ever. Who needs a runway or railway.

[No Idea Either]

Don't beleive everything you are told, Melbourne say traffic within x miles, when it's actually further out, rarely is the separation less than 4-5 miles between arrivals.

TCAS is pretty close and visually I think I can tell what’s about 3 miles and what’s 5 after thirty years. And quite routinely I’m about 1000’ when a ‘TO’ clearance is issued to someone on the ground. But in any case, I think there is room for improvement everywhere. I watched a company aircraft piss around when told ‘line up be ready immediately’ and cause a go round a few years ago. A controller will only be burnt that way once………..

[GA Driver]

TCAS is pretty close and visually I think I can tell what’s about 3 miles and what’s 5 after thirty years. And quite routinely I’m about 1000’ when a ‘TO’ clearance is issued to someone on the ground. But in any case, I think there is room for improvement everywhere. I watched a company aircraft piss around when told ‘line up be ready immediately’ and cause a go round a few years ago. A controller will only be burnt that way once………..

Spot on! The mini backtrack on 16/34 is also back from a few select players…. That really helps the next aircraft.

[Lead Balloon]

A frequent contributor to this topic over many, many years has said that the primary cause of the problem is: lack of concrete. That's short hand for not enough runway, not enough aircraft gates and not enough aircraft parking area. The gist of their point is that no amount of air traffic control can cure a lack of concrete.

[Gne]

A frequent contributor to this topic over many, many years has said that the primary cause of the problem is: lack of concrete. That's short hand for not enough runway, not enough aircraft gates and not enough aircraft parking area. The gist of their point is that no amount of air traffic control can cure a lack of concrete.
You can build as many runways as you like but, at the end of the day an airport's "capacity" will be determined by the ability of the surrounding airspace (and those who "manage" it ) to deliver aircraft to those runways and accept aircraft departing from them. And that other stuff LB mentioned.

Gne

[Lead Balloon]

Just put all the extra concrete in G - like Ballina - and job done! :E

[V-Jet]

Feel for anyone stuck in that.
Someone mentioned JFK taxi times. AFAIK the record is still 8 hours taxi time. JFK-LAX taxi out with two crew, hit TOD limits before they made the runway, so it was time to return to the gate but then they were at the back of the return queue. That's quite a bit of taxi practice:)

[43Inches]

Feel for anyone stuck in that.
Someone mentioned JFK taxi times. AFAIK the record is still 8 hours taxi time. JFK-LAX taxi out with two crew, hit TOD limits before they made the runway, so it was time to return to the gate but then they were at the back of the return queue. That's quite a bit of taxi practice:)

JFK has real amounts of traffic and very bad weather including snow and ground deice requirements at times. As well as destination ports all around that suffer the same issues. Melbourne has some wind, rare fog and the odd mild thunderstorm. Most of the times you get excessive holding weather barely plays any part. Airspace wise, apart from the Essendon quadrant there is pretty much 300 degrees of open, unrestricted airspace for 100s of miles.

As said above above lack of runways, and poor airspace design and management is the problem. Theres also a distinct lack of coordination between ground, tower and departures, that leads to either no gaps for departures, or excessive gaps when no or few departures.

If you want a basic idea of lack of coordination, take LAHSO on 34. Then put all the domestic arrivals and departures on 27 and hold departures when the domestic arrivals could all be holding short while departures are unrestricted on 27. Why have most arrivals on 27 when LAHSO is in progress???

[RAC/OPS]

You tow aircraft that are ready for push back from the gate to a remote stand where later push back will not be required, leave one guy on the headset until ATC give a start clearance 10-15 mins before departure.
They did this effectively at Pudong , Beijing, Chen Lap Kok and even Kai Tak over 20 years ago.

And where do you suggest we do that at Melbourne?

[RAC/OPS]

Why can't they use runway 27? The crosswind component would only be 15-20 knots?

it was a south easterly - too much tailwind on 27. We’re constrained by the no more than 5kt on a dry runway, any at all on a wet runway….maybe the airlines should push for this to be changed. We are all for it!

[RAC/OPS]

TCAS is pretty close and visually I think I can tell what’s about 3 miles and what’s 5 after thirty years. And quite routinely I’m about 1000’ when a ‘TO’ clearance is issued to someone on the ground. But in any case, I think there is room for improvement everywhere. I watched a company aircraft piss around when told ‘line up be ready immediately’ and cause a go round a few years ago. A controller will only be burnt that way once………..

if anything we might tell you the traffic is closer than it is to get you (not you personally) to hurry up. There is such a large variation of how quickly or not different airlines (even individual pilots) line up and get going. We have to work with the lowest common denominator.

[DirectAnywhere]

if anything we might tell you the traffic is closer than it is to get you (not you personally) to hurry up. There is such a large variation of how quickly or not different airlines (even individual pilots) line up and get going. We have to work with the lowest common denominator.

Any pilot who can read their TCAS and knows that 3 degrees is 320’/Nm isn’t going to be suckered into thinking that the little white icon at +13 is 3 miles out. 😁

[RAC/OPS]

Any pilot who can read their TCAS and knows that 3 degrees is 320’/Nm isn’t going to be suckered into thinking that the little white icon at +13 is 3 miles out. 😁

so why has someone suggested that the traffic is further out? How does that help ATC?

[DirectAnywhere]

so why has someone suggested that the traffic is further out? How does that help ATC?

Not sure what you mean sorry. Just saying there’s no point you telling me traffic is at 3 miles to get me to hurry up when I can see from its profile on TCAS that it’s further out. 🤷‍♂️

[RAC/OPS]

Not sure what you mean sorry. Just saying there’s no point you telling me traffic is at 3 miles to get me to hurry up when I can see from its profile on TCAS that it’s further out. 🤷‍♂️

I’m not saying we’d say 3 when it’s 5 - more like 2.5 when it’s 3. On another point raised here we will word number one for an immediate departure hoping to get the second one away in the same gap. Doesn’t often happen. I know “immediate” means line up and take off without stopping but it seems some guys just like to admire the view.

[DirectAnywhere]

Not this guy.

I’ll call ready and taxi towards the holding point at 30kts if no-one else is holding and I can see traffic at 4ish miles in the hope that you’ll see how keen and ready I really am. 😁

[RAC/OPS]

Not this guy.

I’ll call ready and taxi towards the holding point at 30kts if no-one else is holding and I can see traffic at 4ish miles in the hope that you’ll see how keen and ready I really am. 😁

Yes! That’s what we like.

[Done and done]

Yes we do...we really like nothing more than to get you on your way....

When you approach the holding point at speed and there's one on a 2 and a 1/2 mile final....your all mine....dont give me a square turn on thats all I ask. (2 and a 1/4 from Q)

Single RWY ops is crap, YMEN operations (we love them dearly) restricts what we can do on nearly every RWY.

We're doing our best with what we've got.

[No Idea Either]

To be honest here, we get paid by the minute now!!!!!!!! I know blokes that piss around taxing as slllooooooow as possible to rack up time. They can add 3-5 credit hours per roster that way. Fu#k everyone else, I’m clawing back some money is the usual response. As a matter of course, I’m in the taxy to the holding point at speed (safely of course) in order to try and get away. I’d rather get from A to B to C (whatever) and go home. No pissing about here.

[framer]

(2 and a 1/4 from Q)
Can you please explain what the above means?
PS I like this conversation where ATC and pilots can chat like they’re in a bar. I think it’s beneficial.

[framer]

Disregard, I understand you’re talking about the taxiway Q now.

[Awol57]

PS I like this conversation where ATC and pilots can chat like they’re in a bar. I think it’s beneficial.

I do miss the bar chats I used to have when I worked at a smaller regional tower, good for improved understanding of what's happening at both ends. Sadly it happens much more rarely in a big city aerodrome, as understandably, everyone finishes up and just wants to beat the traffic and get home. But it really does help a lot in my humble opinion.

[Done and done]

Disregard, I understand you’re talking about the taxiway Q now.

...any closer and it doesn't work I'll get beaten with a stick, trust me....punitive is what we do well at Airservices.

Give me afterburners and I'm glowing...lol

[RAC/OPS]

I do miss the bar chats I used to have when I worked at a smaller regional tower, good for improved understanding of what's happening at both ends. Sadly it happens much more rarely in a big city aerodrome, as understandably, everyone finishes up and just wants to beat the traffic and get home. But it really does help a lot in my humble opinion.


any pilot is always welcome for a visit. And feel free to broach the difficult subjects - we won’t get offended. Bring chocolate though.

[framer]

Just to continue the bar room chat ….
When a pilot calculates their take-off performance figures using the Onboard Performance Tool for runway 27, they see a little note at the bottom of the page that says;
‘This runway has 90 degree line up turn’

and some of them remember back to the last time they read their Training manual to a specific sentence that says;

​​​​​​​Turns of 90 degrees or moreInitiate the turn as the intersecting taxiway centerline (or intended exit point) approaches approximately the center of the side window.

and then they start to shiver thinking about how grumpy ATC will get if they do that while someone is at 900ft on final, so that flick to the next page of the OPT to see how much fat they have in their figures.
If they are in a typical 24K 737 at 73 tonne, and the runway is wet with no wind, 15 degrees, 1013, they will see that it will take them 2330m to accelerate and then stop and that the ASDA is 2346m. They have 16m up their sleeves predicated on the 90 degree line up. They then start biting their finger nails as they balance the very low probability of having to reject at V1 against the orderly flow of traffic and attracting the ire of the controller and a weary eye roll from their f/o. It’s about this time that they remember the sentence from the Operations Manual that states;
​​​​​​​ Flight test and analysis prove that the change​ in takeoff roll ​
distance due to the rolling takeoff procedure is negligible when compared to a ​
standing takeoff. and wonder if that sentence is comparing a standing start with brakes applied v’s a rolling start from the same position, or if it’s comparing a 90degree line up with more relaxed rolling line up? The subject has never been discussed with them in all their years of flying training and they simply aren’t sure, so they take the conservative route, and the ire, and the eye rolls, and do the best they can on the day to meet their responsibilities.
Does any of that sound plausible or familiar to you guys? I think it’s the kind of balancing act that goes on and with a broad spectrum of personality types in the industry you will always get folks that are more conservative and process driven than the average. We can see it with individual controllers sometimes as well.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

And that’s why we’re known as Austronauts. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Done and done]

Thanks Framer,

Thats interesting information, again I guess another reason why operations happen at the rate they do on occasion.

Just for what its worth RWY27 only in IMC is a nightmare, and why most departures are an immediate takeoff.

With minimal spacing and the prospect of an aircraft missing the rapid, do I line one up...do I miss the gap, having a go round with one rotating is not a good prospect....and with the thought of being beaten with a stick most will sit out and the queue grows longer.

More concrete at Melbourne is a solution, realistically though it's 5 years away.

[MikeHatter732]

I never knew someone could turn a line up on a runway into something similar to launching to the moon. Austronaut indeed! What a crack up.

[Capn Bloggs]

Does any of that sound plausible or familiar to you guys?
Yep! We had some overseas-trained so and so who said just use the yellow line to line up and take off. ATC probably loved him.

​​​​​​​And that’s why we’re known as Austronauts.
The first consideration raised by Frame comes from the OPT.

That last consideration comes from Boeing. This is an early 737 FTCM; I stand to be corrected if it has been removed:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/473x163/rolling_takeoff_737_fcom_31f9ca510b9a7149476f8897544b727b3bb 43edf.jpg
So what's your "Oztronorts" point, BSS?

On "Immediate Departures", apart from the two radio calls in AIP COM, this term is not mentioned or explained anywhere. Of course, we can delay our roll by calling "Line Up XX seconds". The clear implication is that if we don't say that, then we won't be stopping. So why is "Immediate Departure" even mentioned? If there are ditherers or stoppers, then AIP should be edited to make it clearer about what is expected by ATC, or the company should be growled-at by the ATC wheels.

[43Inches]

"Line up runway xxx, expedite" is probably the better option. Once cleared for take off it should be done without delay in any case, unless a delay has been approved. The phrasiology used for takeoff and landing clearance should never be altered, there are reasons its an exact wording. If crews are taking excessive time to line up and depart then a report should be generated so that the airline can deal with that crew or procedure creating the problem.

[HEALY]

That would only work if the said acft called “Fully Ready” 😉

[morno]

Jesus, only Australians could complicate the process of taking off so much :ugh:.

[PiperCameron]

Jesus, only Australians could complicate the process of taking off so much :ugh:.

You reckon that's complicated?.. We have CASA. :)

[Mr Mossberg]

For August, there were around 410 return flights between Australia and the US - United operated 113 (27.6 percent) of those with an average LF of 75.4 percent; the QF group operated 213 (52.0 percent) with an average LF of 82.0 percent.

In terms of pax, again for August, there were in aggregate something like 134,059 pax moved between the two countries - United carried 47,218 (35.2 percent); the QF group carried 89,013 (66.4 percent

Sorry Mick, this deserved a reply.

I'm biased.

United got me home during covid when Qantas was busy ripping the tax payer off for jobkeeper payments. They got me home when Qantas couldn't or wouldn't. They got me home on a 787 not an old A330. They got me home during a particularly stressful time, unless you 'were there' you wouldn't understand what it was like (forgive me if you 'were there'). Family members were stuck in other countries for months, one of them over a year. They didn't get home with Qantas.

So United are my new national airline. OK, they broke a guitar or two, but to my knowledge their CEO isn't an insider trading thief. That's important to me.

[das Uber Soldat]

That would only work if the said acft called “Fully Ready” 😉
Whilst that is a phrase you hear sometimes and doesn't exist in the Australian AIP, just be aware that it is standard phraseology in a lot of other places, especially SE asia (eg Singapore)

Do you entirely read and comply with radio phraseology requirements of every individual foreign state you go to? I'd be impressed if you, or really anyone did. I'd probably give those blokes a break.

Separately, as for the line up orbital checklist, what the. Ozstranughts indeed. Just turn the thing and get going, its not hard. There is a hell of a lot more performance variation in the 'average passenger weights' than in worrying about 30m of lineup allowance.

[missy]

B206/23
AIR TRAFFIC FLOW MANAGEMENT GROUND DELAY PROGRAM ACT
ALL FIXED WING NON-PRIORITY FLIGHTS DEPARTING FROM ALL AUSTRALIAN
AIRPORTS ARE REQUIRED TO OBTAIN A CALCULATED OFF BLOCKS TIME (COBT)
FOR ARRIVAL INTO MELBOURNE
FROM 12 101900 TO 12 111600

YMML GDP Total ground delay = 24,407 minutes, average delay 91.40 minutes. GDP until 3am Tuesday, extraordinary.

[Transition Layer]

For anyone who may be unaware, those numbers above come from this source. I had to go and check myself to see it and believe it :eek:

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/noc/filex.asp?file=ATFM_Daily_Plan.pdf

[pinkpanther1]

To any of the ATC guys/ladies in this forum I've been wondering - what ever happened to "Behind the landing XXX line up behind".

Feels like it used to be common but now it's rarely used. Such a great way to have the next departure ready to launch the second an arrival clears the runway.

[Transition Layer]

To any of the ATC guys/ladies in this forum I've been wondering - what ever happened to "Behind the landing XXX line up behind".

Feels like it used to be common but now it's rarely used. Such a great way to have the next departure ready to launch the second an arrival clears the runway.

Pretty sure that went away with the introduction of stop bars

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

So what's your "Oztronorts" point, BSS?
It’s the difference between knowing the rules, regs, policies and procedures well enough to GTFJD in an efficient manner and sitting there sweating on the minutiae of the above while some poor sod has to go around because of you.

[missy]

To any of the ATC guys/ladies in this forum I've been wondering - what ever happened to "Behind the landing XXX line up behind".

Feels like it used to be common but now it's rarely used. Such a great way to have the next departure ready to launch the second an arrival clears the runway.
Yes, it worked well even with the extra behind added as per your example.

Stop bars didn't allow this, there were no conditionals, the traffic had to have passed before issuing the line-up clearance and dropping the stop bars. You'd think some artificial intelligence could be apply and the stop bars dropped on the lineup clearance by the system whilst the instruction to line up is given. Or a conditional clearance issued and the AI determines the condition and applies it dynamically.

[missy]

For anyone who may be unaware, those numbers above come from this source. I had to go and check myself to see it and believe it :eek:

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/noc/filex.asp?file=ATFM_Daily_Plan.pdf

Ground stop 1955 to 2115UTC, Average ground delay going forward is 165 minutes.

[PiperCameron]

Stop bars didn't allow this, there were no conditionals, the traffic had to have passed before issuing the line-up clearance and dropping the stop bars. You'd think some artificial intelligence could be apply and the stop bars dropped on the lineup clearance by the system whilst the instruction to line up is given. Or a conditional clearance issued and the AI determines the condition and applies it dynamically.

Well, it'd sure make the controller's explanation easier after a runway incursion.. "it's that **** computer's fault!!"

[Mr Mossberg]

"what ever happened to "Behind the landing XXX line up behind".

​​​​​​​Still goes on at Gold Coast.

[DROPS]

airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/runway_stopbars_presentation-1.pdf

[Capn Bloggs]

airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/runway_stopbars_presentation-1.pdf

TL;DR!

​​​​​​​Conditional clearances will not be used if stop bars are operating.

:ok:​​​​​​​

[sunnySA]

stop bars (https://airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/runway_stopbars_presentation-1.pdf)

[sunnySA]

Still goes on at Gold Coast.
Yep, and Hobart, Launceston, Mackay and lots of other places that don't have stop bars.

[Mr Mossberg]

Good, now we know its the stopbars. Who said prune was full of ****? Well, you're wrong if you did. :ok:

[VHOED191006]

Someone should stop the stopbar!

[Lookleft]

So what was the waiting time behind the stopbars at Melbourne yesterday?

[MikeHatter732]

Well well well....look at that. A 30 knot westerly in Sydney today and planes are still safely landing on the parallels (thanks to 07/25 being closed for works).

Just to prove how stupid the 20kt XW rule in MATS is which is the reason the airport grinds to a halt when 25 is available in these conditions.

[RAC/OPS]

Well well well....look at that. A 30 knot westerly in Sydney today and planes are still safely landing on the parallels (thanks to 07/25 being closed for works).

Just to prove how stupid the 20kt XW rule in MATS is which is the reason the airport grinds to a halt when 25 is available in these conditions.


I don’t know if it’s true or not but I was told that the airlines and the pilots’ union was approached about increasing the crosswind and tail wind limits and they declined.

[das Uber Soldat]

Well well well....look at that. A 30 knot westerly in Sydney today and planes are still safely landing on the parallels (thanks to 07/25 being closed for works).

Just to prove how stupid the 20kt XW rule in MATS is which is the reason the airport grinds to a halt when 25 is available in these conditions.
I loaded extra fuel expecting delays, then arrived only to find literally zero delay. Landed in full 30kts of xwind. Nobody died. Was magic.

[keepemseperated]

I don’t know if it’s true or not but I was told that the airlines and the pilots’ union was approached about increasing the crosswind and tail wind limits and they declined.
Back in the day, it was 25 kts crosswind (not much better than 20, but did make quite a difference as to how often single runway ops were required), until the local carriers got fed up of landing on a short runway with 25 kts of crosswind due to noise sharing.

The 20 kts was supposed to be introduced only for noise sharing modes, but it got f@rked up somewhere along the line and 20kts was adopted across the board.

Not sure if it was ASA/CASA/QFA or AAA - probably a combination of all 4.

[cessnapete]

Back in the day, it was 25 kts crosswind (not much better than 20, but did make quite a difference as to how often single runway ops were required), until the local carriers got fed up of landing on a short runway with 25 kts of crosswind due to noise sharing.

The 20 kts was supposed to be introduced only for noise sharing modes, but it got f@rked up somewhere along the line and 20kts was adopted across the board.

Not sure if it was ASA/CASA/QFA or AAA - probably a combination of all 4.

From this thread it appears that ATC in Melbourne tell the aircraft crew what their crosswind limit is? Surely that is a decision for the Pilot in charge, according to the aircraft certification and handling pilots qualification.

[Mr Approach]

A couple of issues perhaps worth commenting on:

1. Stop Bars - these are a great mitigator of the single point of failure, pilots lining up due to radio misunderstandings, however:In Australia, they are used without much thought for the consequences on aircraft flow (see comments about line up behind). This means they enhance safety but reduce efficiency.
The FAA took the concept but automated it so that the basic rule is correct, do not line up when the stop lights are red, but the stop lights operate off the A/SMGCS (we have this installed in MEL. SYD, BNE and PER), they do not require a controller to press a button. This means that the stop bars are only red when the A/SMGCS detects RWY activity. The system can also warn a pilot on final of RWY activity by turning the approach lighting red!2. Cross wind limits - Australia is non-compliant with the ICAO 15 Kt crosswind limit, allowing RWY nomination with a 20 kt crosswind, however:This is only an issue if airports hang onto, or are forced to hang onto (Sydney) the "old-fashioned" idea that there should be an into wind runway.
By this I mean that ATC can therefore nominate a runway with a lesser crosswind, because there is one! In Sydney and Melbourne, this often reduces the airports to single-runway operations, absolutely cruelling their efficiency.Brisbane smartly got rid of their cross-wind runway when the parallel 01L/19R was opened, hence no runway nomination problems. (Except during nighttime low wind conditions, but that is another subject)So, we are safe, but very inefficient. The airports and Airservices management don't care, because all of those aircraft will land and take-off anyway, so they get their money.
Who suffers? Airline bottom-lines, pilots, ATC's running holding patterns, the environment as more fuel gets burned - but, hey, who cares?

[cessnapete]

[QUOTE=Mr Approach;11556387]A couple of issues perhaps worth commenting on:

1. Stop Bars - these are a great mitigator of the single point of failure, pilots lining up due to radio misunderstandings, however:In Australia, they are used without much thought for the consequences on aircraft flow (see comments about line up behind). This means they enhance safety but reduce efficiency.
The FAA took the concept but automated it so that the basic rule is correct, do not line up when the stop lights are red, but the stop lights operate off the A/SMGCS (we have this installed in MEL. SYD, BNE and PER), they do not require a controller to press a button. This means that the stop bars are only red when the A/SMGCS detects RWY activity. The system can also warn a pilot on final of RWY activity by turning the approach lighting red!2. Cross wind limits - Australia is non-compliant with the ICAO 15 Kt crosswind limit, allowing RWY nomination with a 20 kt crosswind, however:This is only an issue if airports hang onto, or are forced to hang onto (Sydney) the "old-fashioned" idea that there should be an into wind runway.
By this I mean that ATC can therefore nominate a runway with a lesser crosswind, because there is one! In Sydney and Melbourne, this often reduces the airports to single-runway operations, absolutely cruelling their efficiency.Brisbane smartly got rid of their cross-wind runway when the parallel 01L/19R was opened, hence no runway nomination problems. (Except during nighttime low wind conditions, but that is another subject)So, we are safe, but very inefficient. The airports and Airservices management don't care, because all of those aircraft will land and take-off anyway, so they get their money.
Who suffers? Airline bottom-lines, pilots, ATC's running holding patterns, the environment as more fuel gets burned - but, hey, who cares?
(Quote)

What an odd concept. Here in Europe/USA a pilot has aircraft Manufacturers/ Company performance limits to work with. And of course weather minima appropriate to the landing aids/weather conditions at the time. ATC does not stop me starting an Approach due to some ATC dictat.
Also my last Type had a dry X Wind limit of 35K gusting 40, so I would be stopped from landing in Sydney if the X Wind was 20kts> ?

[Awol57]

You won't be stopped, we just can't nominate the runway. Require it all you like, no problems.

[RAC/OPS]

Back in the day, it was 25 kts crosswind (not much better than 20, but did make quite a difference as to how often single runway ops were required), until the local carriers got fed up of landing on a short runway with 25 kts of crosswind due to noise sharing.

The 20 kts was supposed to be introduced only for noise sharing modes, but it got f@rked up somewhere along the line and 20kts was adopted across the board.

Not sure if it was ASA/CASA/QFA or AAA - probably a combination of all 4.

airlines throughout the world seem to manage on parallel runways with well in excess of 20kts. I guess it’s “Australian conditions”. The wind must be tougher here.

[sunnySA]

More on Melbourne. Significant disruption. THIS ARR IS UNACHIEVABLE and is for slot manipulation only.

MELBOURNE (YMML)
TAF AMD YMML 071354Z 0713/0818
02005KT 9999 LIGHT RAIN SCT020 BKN035
BECMG 0717/0719 18005KT 9999 LIGHT DRIZZLE BKN005
BECMG 0801/0803 19012KT 9999 LIGHT DRIZZLE BKN010
BECMG 0806/0808 21010KT 9999 LIGHT DRIZZLE BKN005
FM081200 17006KT 9999 LIGHT RAIN BKN010
TEMPO 0713/0716 VRB20G30KT 1000 THUNDERSTORMS WITH MODERATE RAIN
BKN010 SCT090CB
INTER 0716/0718 4000 MODERATE RAIN SCT020 BKN050
TEMPO 0718/0803 2000 MODERATE DRIZZLE OVC003
TEMPO 0803/0807 4000 MODERATE DRIZZLE BKN006
TEMPO 0807/0812 2000 MODERATE DRIZZLE OVC003
PROB30 TEMPO 0716/0722 VRB20G30KT 1000 THUNDERSTORMS WITH MODERATE
RAIN BKN010 SCT090CB
PROB30 0720/0800 1000 MIST BKN002
RMK
T 20 20 20 20 Q 1007 1006 1006 1008
TAF3

YMML AD WRNG 1 VALID 071400/071600
AERODROME WARNING NUMBER 1 FOR MELBOURNE VALID 080100/080300 LOCAL
ISSUED 071353 (080053 LOCAL)
EMBEDED THUNDERSTORMS AND HEAVY RAIN APPROACHING FROM THE NORTH

[Lookleft]

I am very happy that today I am on the ground not even wishing I was in the air.

[1000fps]

Well it was great!
You missed a chance to demonstrate your competency to yourself.

Tanker to close to MLW, performance limited, as you calculated only to have extra passengers jump aboard.

A missed approach from 400’ agl on an RNP approach to a narrow strip back into a hold ( emergency turn if you like).
Land next approach. No ATC here.

Wait. The return needs a performance limited MTOW calculation for max fuel as destination has BKN 400’ with an Altn requirement.

Inbound holding, recalculate minimum bingo fuel. Check all weathers…oops Printer failure!

Shoot an ILS approach - visual 100’ above.

Park it, go home, satisfied that I am capable enough to best the usual problems and thumb my nose at those higher up with their gold stars trapped in their glass cages.

I am a Line Pilot!

Enjoy the challenges fellow Pilots.

[Lookleft]

You missed a chance to demonstrate your competency to yourself.

I have had plenty of days like you just experienced and no longer have to prove anything to anyone least of all myself. At the time though I felt just as you did that I was on top of my game.

[C441]

Brisbane smartly got rid of their cross-wind runway when the parallel 01L/19R was opened, hence no runway nomination problems. (Except during nighttime low wind conditions, but that is another subject)
Even if there were still a 14/32 in Brisbane, ATC probably wouldn't 'nominate' it as it was too short for most widebody ops and probably heavier weight 737/320 departures, especially as the really strong westerlies in Brissy would produce a downwind on 14. Whilst I recall it being used for arrivals, I don't recall it being used too often for departures of the airline's domestic fleets, even in a rare strong north-westerly.

[DROPS]

Even if there were still a 14/32 in Brisbane, ATC probably wouldn't 'nominate' it as it was too short for most widebody ops and probably heavier weight 737/320 departures, especially as the really strong westerlies in Brissy would produce a downwind on 14. Whilst I recall it being used for arrivals, I don't recall it being used too often for departures of the airline's domestic fleets, even in a rare strong north-westerly.
Was great for TP departures however.

And NAP Nightime freighters.

Was not supposed to close when it did. CV19 made it a carpark and BAC hastily painted out the markings, hence it remains an unused often in to wind crumbling exclamation point.

[Mr Approach]

Even if there were still a 14/32 in Brisbane, ATC probably wouldn't 'nominate' it as it was too short for most widebody ops and probably heavier weight 737/320 departures, especially as the really strong westerlies in Brissy would produce a downwind on 14. Whilst I recall it being used for arrivals, I don't recall it being used too often for departures of the airline's domestic fleets, even in a rare strong north-westerly.
Not quite correct, it could be nominated for simultaneous 01/14 arrivals and either 19 or 01/32 Departures. That allowed a lot of smaller aircraft to jump the airborne or taxiway queues.

[missy]

Perhaps the issue is the amount of on the job training being conducted on busy ATC frequencies, complex traffic including taxiway works and traffic ramping up. Continual training reduces the efficiency of operations. MEL TWR have had 8 trainees in a row have failed to rate.

MEL ATC College has Tower simulators, are these being used for basic introductory training prior to on the job training?