Navy P8 overrun into water - Hawaii 20 Nov 23

[RAFEngO74to09]

USN P-8A overshot the runway at MCAS Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii and ended up in the water

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_a2bR5WkAAv79L?format=jpg&name=medium

[RAFEngO74to09]

All 9 POB made it to land safely

[MK 4A Tank]

Be interesting to read what happened there? We operated the Nimrod MR2 on numerous occasions out of Kaneohe for several weeks at a time on Joint Fleet Ex with the USN P3's and the Japanese. I recall a great down wind visual approach and only about 7700ft of Asphalt to play with.!!:).

[framer]

I’d be interested as well. The runway is not particularly short for that machine if everything is working as advertised.

[golder]

An aerial view
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cz5IlMzrcKL/

[ORAC]

Landed (sic) runway 22 with a strong tailwind.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1088x1126/image_219a0b88a9301921af2e34303769d294a945a7da.png

[pasta]

First use of dipping sonar from a fixed-wing platform?

[golfbananajam]

Lovely golf course there, you can watch whales in the ocean while you're between shots. Also a lovely private beach for the military and their families.

[Flch250]

By HNN Staff
Published: Nov. 20, 2023 at 7:34 PM EST|Updated: 2 hours agoHONOLULU (HawaiiNewsNow) - A large U.S. Navy aircraft ended up in shallow waters of Kaneohe Bay on Monday afternoon after overshooting the runway at Marine Corps Base Hawaii.

The incident happened about 1:57 p.m. when the P-8 Poseidon aircraft was landing.

Following the incident, the plane could be seen partially submerged in shallow waters.

Authorities confirmed the aircraft had nine people on board and all of them made it to shore uninjured. The crew was conducting “routine training” at the time, military officials said.

The Boeing P8 Poseidon is described as a military surveillance and patrol aircraft.

Aircraft expert Peter Forman said the runway in Kaneohe is shorter, and bad weather and winds may also have played a part.

“The pilot probably didn’t put the plane down exactly where he wanted to on the runway,” Forman said. “It’s probably a combination of all those factors put together.”

There’s no word on how long it will take to remove the wreckage, but some residents are concerned about the environmental impact.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1047x758/img_5250_4b7a00543a3b9a3c1d537f767ee130090abb5951.jpeg

[360BakTrak]

Much deeper and they'd need another P8 to find it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Aircraft expert Peter Forman said the runway in Kaneohe is shorter, and bad weather and winds may also have played a part.

“The pilot probably didn’t put the plane down exactly where he wanted to on the runway,” Forman said. “It’s probably a combination of all those factors put together.”

How to attract the disdain of your peers by ponitificating to the media without any actual evidence in one easy lesson.

G

[Flch250]

I believe this may be about the time. Have not spotted any public or Civil approaches to this airfield.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1668x1262/img_5251_e16d3465cefc44bd10751454c15b0877c0f6f802.jpeg

[Lake1952]

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1726878180449878068?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembe d%7Ctwterm%5E1726878180449878068%7Ctwgr%5Edddcf3f9c0ea82f9c2 4a987c0a09b90e16c1f241%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsimpleflying.com%2Fus-navy-p-8-poseidon-aircraft-overshoots-runwayends-up-in-kaneohe-bay%2F.....

[LostinATX]

total loss or is anything likely to be salvageable from this airframe?

[Two's in]

How to attract the disdain of your peers by ponitificating to the media without any actual evidence in one easy lesson.

G

In fairness, he does have a lot of years of history surrounding the primary causes of runway overruns on his side...

[sandiego89]

Need to have those P-8 crews spend some time on the Southwest rotator between Burbank and Chicago Midway. Those 737 brakes seem VERY good there......

[Bksmithca]

First use of dipping sonar from a fixed-wing platform?
I was thinking being a Navy aircraft they just wanted to see it would float. Glad that all crew got off safely

[Lomon]

Glad they all got to shore safely....

[EDLB]

Wind from 070 14kn gusting 21kn and they landed on runway 22. Or did I miss something?

[island_airphoto]

total loss or is anything likely to be salvageable from this airframe?
Salt water is pretty nasty, one plane that I used to fly suffered a stupid pilot trick, landed in shallow water with no damage, and the insurance company said it was totalled anyway.
In this case since the water is not up to the cabin from the looks of it, plenty of electronic gear is probably just fine and easily reused. Reusing the entire airplane....not so sure, but it will need an epic wash and Boeshield job if they do.

[Flightmech]

Taking sub-hunting to a new level....

[A0283]

https://www.nu.nl/304345/video/amerikaans-patrouillevliegtuig-dat-landingsbaan-miste-ligt-in-zee-bij-hawai.html

[Flch250]

I looked at a one or two online charts, not a Jepp. Don’t think runway is grooved.
Runway 22 elevation 23.0 Runway 4 elevation 12.0 feet. No precision makings on RWY4.
Terrain east likely the issue.

[Capn Bloggs]

Wind from 070 14kn gusting 21kn and they landed on runway 22. Or did I miss something?
Maybe the hills and populated areas to the SW?

[Mozella]

Back in the day, if you wore Navy Wings Of Gold you were carrier qualified even if you might be currently flying a transport, anti-submarine, patrol, or other non carrier aircraft. At least you know something about landing.
But not anymore. I don't have any direct knowledge, but I would bet this P-8 pilot was not a typical carrier qualified Naval Aviator because these days it's cheaper to eliminate that phase of flight training from some groups..

Shame on the Navy for not teaching all their Aviators how to land.

[BFSGrad]

Back in the day, if you wore Navy Wings Of Gold you were carrier qualified even if you might be currently flying a transport, anti-submarine, patrol, or other non carrier aircraft. At least you know something about landing.
But not anymore.
Puzzled by that comment. Back in the day (WWII), my naval aviator father never came anywhere near a U.S. aircraft carrier and ended up flying large transports. I’m not aware that the USN every sent all of its aviators through carrier qualification. That would seem to be expensive and pointless. Don’t current P-8 pilots go T-6, T-44, P-8?

I suspect our intrepid P-8 pilots in this accident fell prey to many of the same errors suffered during the 2019 NAS Jax 737 overrun.

[megan]

I’m not aware that the USN every sent all of its aviators through carrier qualificationThey certainly did when I went through in 1967, even those destined for helicopters, who did their carrier quals flying the T-28, those going multi got two bites of the cherry, quals in the T-28 and then again in the S-2 Tracker which was the multi trainer, the carrier Lexington was dedicated full time to the training program home ported in Pensacola. No idea of the current set up.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/690x421/batc0002_05c87bb2b3863b207b7a76e40ae3c42f435465d4.jpg

[EDLB]

Who on earth makes landing training with a 737-800 on a 7700 feet runway with 20kn gusting tailwind?
That may work or may not as in this case.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Back in the day, if you wore Navy Wings Of Gold you were carrier qualified even if you might be currently flying a transport, anti-submarine, patrol, or other non carrier aircraft. At least you know something about landing.
But not anymore. I don't have any direct knowledge, but I would bet this P-8 pilot was not a typical carrier qualified Naval Aviator because these days it's cheaper to eliminate that phase of flight training from some groups..

Shame on the Navy for not teaching all their Aviators how to land.

Tosh.

Aviators the world over and every day manage safe landings, on runways, in a massive range of aeroplanes and conditions, safely, without having at any point being taught how to land on an aircraft carrier. Whatever went wrong here, and ultimately we have no idea about the details yet - I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't have been solved by this multi-engine transport aeroplane pilot knowing, or not knowing, how to land a fighter on a ship.

G

[oceancrosser]

According to some news, the crew swam ashore. With the airplane sitting in the bottom why not wait for a boat? Or perhaps no dinghy on a Navy plane?

[pax britanica]

Isnt this just another case of a 737-8 running out of runway in the wet with a tailwind. They seem to do it regularly but there are a lot of them so that probably raises the profile

[island_airphoto]

Back in the day, if you wore Navy Wings Of Gold you were carrier qualified even if you might be currently flying a transport, anti-submarine, patrol, or other non carrier aircraft. At least you know something about landing.
But not anymore. I don't have any direct knowledge, but I would bet this P-8 pilot was not a typical carrier qualified Naval Aviator because these days it's cheaper to eliminate that phase of flight training from some groups..

Shame on the Navy for not teaching all their Aviators how to land.
Maybe WAY back in the day. My naval aviator buddy who went to flight school when I did in the 80s never went near a carrier, he was off learning to fly C-130s after doing the T-34 and King Air training, neither one of which landed on carriers.
Pilots all over the world who have never been near a boat land into the wind and stay on the runway most days, this is not a skill unique to carrier ops.

[BFSGrad]

According to some news, the crew swam ashore. With the airplane sitting in the bottom why not wait for a boat? Or perhaps no dinghy on a Navy plane?
Perhaps the crew was seizing the moment to knock out the 500 yd swim portion of the navy physical readiness test. Making lemonade from lemons? Hopefully someone was running a stopwatch and remembered to also take care of the push-ups and planking (Oy!) upon reaching terra firma.

Regarding the urgency to complete the mission by sticking the landing at PHNG in adverse conditions (low viz, tail wind, contaminated runway), just around the corner from PHNG is PHNL with long runways, lots of IAP options, and full military aircraft support at Hickam.

[Not Long Here]

Regarding the urgency to complete the mission by sticking the landing at PHNG in adverse conditions (low viz, tail wind, contaminated runway), just around the corner from PHNG is PHNL with long runways, lots of IAP options, and full military aircraft support at Hickam.

There used to be quite a nice setup at Barbers Point as well

[Junkflyer]

Yes, no room for ifr approach due to terrain. Monday was a rainy trade wind day.
Ironically two airports about a dozen miles away would have worked well. One of them a former base for the P-3 which was the previous sub hunter.

[WHBM]

Isnt this just another case of a 737-8 running out of runway in the wet with a tailwind. They seem to do it regularly but there are a lot of them so that probably raises the profile
You are correct, and it seems only the 737-800 that has this overrun record, not any of the other 737 models. Someone can add up the number of runway overruns they have had in the last say 20 years, and compare that with the A320 over the same period. Because it's not just that there are lots of them, there are lots of other types as well.

[DaveReidUK]

You are correct, and it seems only the 737-800 that has this overrun record, not any of the other 737 models.

I can't say I'm too surprised that the -800 figures prominently in the 737 stats, given that there are significantly more of those in service than all the other variants put together.

[NSEU]

Environmentalist are worried about jet fuel and antifreeze leaks. Antifreeze? A couple of litres of window washing fluid?

[cncpc]

In fairness, he does have a lot of years of history surrounding the primary causes of runway overruns on his side...

Probably an unwelcome introduction of truth to the discussion.

[JanetFlight]

You are correct, and it seems only the 737-800 that has this overrun record, not any of the other 737 models. Someone can add up the number of runway overruns they have had in the last say 20 years, and compare that with the A320 over the same period. Because it's not just that there are lots of them, there are lots of other types as well.


Hummmm....a lil bit suspicious indeed... :rolleyes:

Links »»»

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?search_term=737-800+overrun&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=738+excursion&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0

[AircraftOperations]

Hummmm....a lil bit suspicious indeed... :rolleyes:

Links »»»

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?search_term=737-800+overrun&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?search_term=738+excursion&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

Be interesting in 20 years to see how many such incidents/accidents the B737MAX series will have racked up.

[fdr]

There used to be quite a nice setup at Barbers Point as well


which used to have a harpoon missile on a post out front of the O''s mess. Which did a little bit of where's Waldo?

[fdr]

Hummmm....a lil bit suspicious indeed... :rolleyes:

Links »»»

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?search_term=737-800+overrun&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?search_term=738+excursion&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=0&search.y=0)

The B737NG introduced a simplified flap system and a slight change in the inboard LE hi lift device. The outcome is a lower cost of fabrication, the bill for the flaps being about 3% of the total cost of manufacture. The "improvement by going to the fewer elements in the system was a cost saving of... 0.5% or something close to that, but a higher Vs1g, so up went the Vref and that leads to higher KE to get rid of. The HUD improves touchdown accuracy, if it isn't stowed at the time. Still, they would have had a base Vref in the '30's, plus TWC, ISA+, a GS of over 150Kts. on a wet runway, with a tailwind? did we mention a tailwind? Yes it can be done safely, but the guys have to be on the targets for every part, and it is still not without risk. Any auto function that hangs up is going to chew up runway quickly.

I'm not sure the cost saving was justified with the routine. The NG's (and MAX) CL in TO and landing configuration sucks. That can be reduced by around 13-15KTAS with a fairly straight forward mod if the fleet doesn't want to fit a hook at the blunt end. I flew this mod, bot only on the more effective CL flaps, gave a pleasant reduction in VS1g, reduced the buffet loads on the flap and most importantly the flap tracks which are a design weirdness, the track design could have lowered loads to the track, or increase them depending on a single design choice, guess what was the chosen geometry. I wasn't targeting stall particularly, intent was delayed Mcrit & Mdd to get cruise drag down and to reduce vibration. That also lowered the root bending moment, was a fun change. To STC, it's about 15 months, and needs the NG airframe and a small bag of kwon. That would cost less to certify than the damage bill to the insurers every month. It would be a UKCAA STC first up, and BIASA across to the FAA, DOD would be by M/STC.

The MAX is more of the same. The MCAS is not adversely affected by this type of mod, even with a bending relief going on, the overall effect is an improved longitudinal static stability. MCAS was a kludge fix to what could have been resolved with another simple aero mod, which involves removing something, not more baandaids.

[A0283]

Not a complete list. Overrun events vs year (so excluding excursions and others …). From the 737 events about half are -800. So -800 same as 320 total.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x636/img_8457_d65673018ff85480aa650681c34dd60b8039040c.jpeg

[ShyTorque]

total loss or is anything likely to be salvageable from this airframe?


The roof lining?

FLY NAVY!

[BFSGrad]

FDR recovered.

Navy crews recover flight data recorder from downed plane in Kaneohe Bay (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/navy-crews-recover-flight-data-recorder-from-downed-plane-in-kaneohe-bay/ar-AA1kuJ5m)

[BFSGrad]

In a 27 November update on salvage operations, navy officials said Poseidon number 561 remains structurally intact, including the aircraft’s fuel system, which has been successfully drained.

Notably, a survey by salvage divers has concluded that the jet’s landing gear remain intact and are currently supporting the aircraft body.

Lenox says, given the structurally intact landing gear, two options are being considered. The first is to use salvage floats to lift the P-8 from its resting place and push the aircraft within range of a ground-based crane, which would then lift it back onto the runway.

The second option would use salvage floats to lift the P-8, which would then be rolled to shore using its landing gear.

US Navy hopes to restore crashed Hawaii P-8 to flight status (https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-hopes-to-restore-crashed-hawaii-p-8-to-flight-status/155991.article)

[ORAC]

Video of underwater survey prior to recovery attempts.

I presume the ropes are to hold it in place rather than try to drag it out…..

https://x.com/ryankakiuchan/status/1730039089662160958?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
​​​​​​​

[tdracer]

Saw something yesterday suggesting they plan to repair the aircraft and return it to service, although I suspect the final determination of that will depend on what they find when they get it out of the water.
I suspect the electronics in the E-bay are scrap after being immersed in salt water, but much of the pricey mission specific stuff is on the main deck - most of which appears to be high and dry.

[island_airphoto]

Saw something yesterday suggesting they plan to repair the aircraft and return it to service, although I suspect the final determination of that will depend on what they find when they get it out of the water.
I suspect the electronics in the E-bay are scrap after being immersed in salt water, but much of the pricey mission specific stuff is on the main deck - most of which appears to be high and dry.
If the battery was not disconnected or switched off ASAP they will have one hell of a corroded wiring mess to deal with.

[mnttech]

If the battery was not disconnected or switched off ASAP they will have one hell of a corroded wiring mess to deal with.
I would think the wires are going to corroded one way or another :8 But you do bring up an interesting point. Turning off the battery is one thing, but I have never thought about those items on the HOT battery buss (assuming there is one) that would require the battery to be disconnected to remove power.

There is history of aircraft being re-built after a swim. JAL's DC-8 comes to mind, but that is a world of difference in electronics.

[mnttech]

I suspect the electronics in the E-bay are scrap after being immersed in salt water, but much of the pricey mission specific stuff is on the main deck - most of which appears to be high and dry.
Things we may never know.... It will be interesting to see if they can return the aircraft to service. All I can think of are all those high density connectors with salt... I wonder if they would have to just re-wire the aircraft. :eek:

[BFSGrad]

The U.S. Navy plans to use inflatable cylinders to lift and roll a jet plane off a coral reef in Hawaii before removal from the ocean waters where the aircraft crashed on Nov. 20.

Lenox said he expected the removal operation to get underway on Saturday. He didn’t want to commit to a date when the work would be done given the weather and other conditions that could affect the timeline.

Contractors began sliding the bags under the plane on Friday. When inflated, the bags will float across the water toward the runway. When they reach land, machines will pull and roll them onto and across the runway.

US Navy plans to raise jet plane off Hawaii coral reef using inflatable cylinders (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2023/12/01/hawaii-navy-plane-jet-coral-reef-salvage/a3f7f20a-90c8-11ee-95e1-edd75d825df0_story.html)

[galaxy flyer]

Maybe the hills and populated areas to the SW?

The island (Oahu) slopes up steeply south thru west, there’s an island about 2nm west of the approach to 04 that, due to noise, must not be overflown. Been there many times, TACAN 22, circle north to land 04.

[BFSGrad]

I think it moved!
--George Costanza

Removal of Navy aircraft in Kaneohe Bay has begun

[BFSGrad]

The Navy announced they ‘safely’ recovered the military plane that overshot the runway and has been stuck in Kaneohe Bay for almost two weeks.

Officials say the operation lasted 13 hours, beginning at 6:30 a.m., Dec. 2. The aircraft was floated adjacent to the runway by 10:18 a.m. And the last portion of the airframe, the nose wheel, lifted out of the water at 7 p.m., Dec. 2.

Navy ‘safely’ recovers military spy plane stuck in Kaneohe Bay for almost 2 weeks (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/12/03/navy-safely-recovers-military-spy-plane-stuck-kaneohe-bay-almost-2-weeks/)

[BFSGrad]

P-8 Poseidon Extraction Time-lapse

[WHBM]

At least being a military aircraft it won't be the subject of an insurance claim. One does wonder when the hull insurance industry will start to move on 737-800s being operated into shortish, wet runways.