S211 Down Port Phillip Bay [Archive]

fdr

19th Nov 2023, 18:03

The link to the advertisement is interesting. It's a lot of hyperbole with errors in it. I assume it's a ride rather than someone flying.

It's interesting to see this as I'm flying one of these in Texas for two days of UPRT in a couple weeks. 7500 Australian for 45 minutes w/ an exchange rate of 0.65 seems to make this about $6500 US for an hour of two airplanes. That's what I'm paying for two one-hour sorties in Texas, but I get to fly the plane.

Sad loss of plane and crew.

It's a nice little jet, underpowered but good for what it was proposed to do. That is one phat little wing on it. had one eject in front of us on an approach into Payalebar many years ago. we terminated the approach, had a lindholme in the bomb bay and dropped it about 60 seconds after the crew went in the water. Got back later the same day to find a soggy lindholme sitting beside the rear stairs. Visiting ops to FPL back to Butterworth, asked how the crew were, "what are?", "the crew that ejected this morning, from the 211, splashed into the water off Pulau Ubin there..." No, not us. we haven't lost a plane in many years". Thanks for the lindholme return. cheers. 是你!

Nice plane. Getting that canopy off for a manual bailout might be interesting. The SOG2 had an excellent mechanical system, Mr H. Robinson would have been proud. The 211 would be about as much fun to pop as the 326H was if the seats are inerted.

Hope the guys got out but a mayday call from the ding wing bird after there is a splash in the water sounds more like a loss of a stab and a prompt termination to flying events, which is not a big survival chance. Hope that is wrong and they did a controlled ditch, that plane would have a highly survivable ditching in controlled case.

P.S.: the remaining Viper handled the aftermath pretty damned well. Wash up will be interesting, but the return was pretty well handled. The aircraft condition was understood by the driver by the time he got near built up areas. A case may be made to have had a recovery to YMML not for the runway but to have some flightpaths that avoided low speed near the airport environment, remaining clear of built up areas. When ATSB looks at that sort of issue, please remember that the airports came first, the houses later, deciding to put a development proximate to an airport is not the pilots concern, that is on the developer. The safety case is pretty simple in this case, the pilot did a credible management of risk, to ALARP, that is the ICAO standard to be applied, not zero risk.

DARKMAIZE

19th Nov 2023, 18:54

Agreed. I was waiting for fuel when DQJ came back to land. I was surprised to see him.om 26 when 18 was the active, but they did change the active at that point.

Taxied out past the hangar and saw it parked up, numerous people in yellow vests standing around. I didn't know at that point and didn't hear until I landed 3 hours later. Sad to hear of the loss.

Regarding safety, o ly.other thought I would've had was AVALON was surely similar distance as Essendon, longer runways and nothing but cows and mud in the flightpath, but we do the best we can in the moment. Good job to the pilot getting their aircraft back safely, probably in a significant amount of shock. I didn't notice any emergency vehicles, so I assume that they felt controllable enough.

Squawk7700

19th Nov 2023, 19:18

Point Cook was the other less obvious choice @1371m 17/35.

Sometimes best to stick with what we know when things go bad. Easier to clear out traffic from class C rather class G if needed.

Squawk7700

19th Nov 2023, 20:28

Filming for the Any Fool Can Fly documentary series perhaps?

Unable to post the link here, however a Google search will locate it.

Looks like you were spot on.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/talented-cameraman-feared-dead-in-horrific-port-phillip-bay-fighter-jet-crash/news-story/157963c6a68b3799394799bdcabc2843

FullOppositeRudder

19th Nov 2023, 22:07

I took this photo of a sweet looking little jet at Temora back in 2015 not even knowing at the time what type it was. This morning, looking though my archives, I've discovered to my even greater sadness that it seems to be the aircraft which is lost.

RIP

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1900x1157/188a2968_ecrr_6f96db1f053c63fcbb5c73dfe5912f95769b3a84.jpg

Antsl

19th Nov 2023, 22:12

Naming a television show "Any Fool Can Fly" has to be out there with naming a passenger liner "unsinkable"; yes, it might be a great marketing idea but it is probably tempting fate too. If I was a professional pilot (which I am not) I would be taking exception to the notion that having spent thousands of hours training for a job that is relatively complex by comparison to the majority of jobs, some TV show is now going to tell me any fool can fly a plane. Seriously!? I have enough hours to be dangerous, and those hours spent training over the skies of Port Phillip Bay were enough to illustrate to me how much skill, knowledge and awareness (aka professionalism) is required to fly a plane. One of my flying instructors told me you could probably teach a monkey to fly a plane, but we all know that keeping a plane straight and level is just a fraction of the task. If the title of this show was to try and encourage more people to become pilots, then it is misguided. (...and do you want to be sharing the sky with "fools"?).

I work as a professional photographer and so my sympathies go out to the family of the cameraman (and the pilot) who have been lost in this accident. One thing I know as a professional image maker is that we are always wanting to get closer to our subject, even in air-to-air situations, just for the sake of making an image look more dramatic. My hope is that this is not the root cause of this accident... but then again, it is what professionals end up doing to keep executives on some television show happy.

PiperCameron

19th Nov 2023, 23:34

Assuming they were following their advertised routine (it would seem from the flight track they might have been), from the advert at https://www.jetworksaviation.com.au/shop/p/formation-sortie : The two aircraft will perform some air show style formation aerobatic manoeuvres before separating into the dynamic combat formation. After criss-crossing over the bay in a modern dogfight, the two aircraft will return in formation passing close to Melbourne’s beautiful skyline.

Flying out of YMMB yesterday at the time of the crash, I can say there was no visible horizon in that location at the time due significant haze, with visibility only getting worse as the day progressed and depth perception would have been really difficult to judge. Basically a really, really, sh**tty day for doing aerobatics of any kind but with the sun shining brightly it seems like they went with it anyways. :sad:

It'll be interesting to read the ATSB report when it comes out.

DARKMAIZE

20th Nov 2023, 00:31

It'll be interesting to read the ATSB report when it comes out.
I would assume if they were indeed filming, there should be some good videos for atsb investigation which may assist in identifying a root cause.

Also, you're link goes to a page that does not exist

Squawk7700

20th Nov 2023, 00:34

Assuming they were following their advertised routine (it would seem from the flight track they might have been), from the advert @ https://www.jetworksaviation.com.au/shop/p/formation-sortie:

Flying out of YMMB yesterday at the time of the crash, I can say there was no visible horizon in that location at the time due significant haze, with visibility only getting worse as the day progressed and depth perception would have been really difficult to judge. Basically a really, really, sh**tty day for doing aerobatics of any kind but with the sun shining brightly it seems like they went with it anyways. :sad:

It'll be interesting to read the ATSB report when it comes out.

I was flying at Mt. Martha shortly after the crash (as in minutes) and I had no issues with visibility, I could quite happily see the horizon.

It if was that bad, YMMB would probably have been Special VFR.

I also quite easily spotted the R44 fly through Moorabbin with no transponder from a couple of miles away. That place gets crazier every week.

PiperCameron

20th Nov 2023, 00:55

I was flying at Mt. Martha shortly after the crash (as in minutes) and I had no issues with visibility, I could quite happily see the horizon.

It if was that bad, YMMB would probably have been Special VFR.

Whilst the vis was reduced to 10 miles or so (I don't remember exactly what the ATIS said, but it was up to Xray when we were flying an hour or so later), it wasn't anywhere near bad enough to be SVFR and I've flown SVFR at YMMB in bushfire smoke haze, so I know what that's like! - but you certainly couldn't see across the bay and it only got worse as the sun got lower.

Maybe you were in a clear patch...

I also quite easily spotted the R44 fly through Moorabbin with no transponder from a couple of miles away. That place gets crazier every week.

On that we do agree! :ok:

Capt Fathom

20th Nov 2023, 00:58

Also, you're link goes to a page that does not exist

It does when you remove the colon : from the end of the link!

Here it is... (https://www.jetworksaviation.com.au/shop/p/formation-sortie)

Squawk7700

20th Nov 2023, 00:59

Just be careful with your terminology. You stated "no visible horizon" which may lead readers to believe that the flight was conducted in something other than VFR conditions.

PiperCameron

20th Nov 2023, 01:03

Just be careful with your terminology. You stated "no visible horizon" which may lead readers to believe that the flight was conducted in something other than VFR conditions.

Yep, fair enough. Point taken. It was certainly a safe VFR day, just not "visibility unlimited" that's all. :O

DARKMAIZE

20th Nov 2023, 01:22

ACMS

20th Nov 2023, 01:33

Those experts taking about other runways to land on miss the best one around. AVALON. No one to hit if you don’t make the runway and it’s bloody long with ATC and RFF. Would have been an option I’m sure. YMMB? ummmmmmm no. YMPC…no, YMML yes a good choice.

but he chose YMEN and I can’t fault him.

markis10

20th Nov 2023, 01:53

Herald Sun reporting that the owner of the business was the pilot (apologies main article is behind a pay wall it seems)

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/plane-crashes-into-port-phillip-bay-near-mount-martha/news-story/cc9fc619deda2149151583b0f5e98186

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/jet-owner-stephen-gale-named-as-second-person-missing-at-sea-after-twoplane-crash-near-victorias-mornington-peninsula/news-story/3d82dbaf0389db40d485d9ef822f9a8d#

The second person feared dead at sea after two planes collided near Victoria’s Mount Martha has been identified as police provide a sad update on their search effort.

Two ex-military jets operated by civilians collided mid-air over Port Phillip Bay about 1.45pm on Sunday before one plunged into the water while the other landed safely at the nearby Essendon Airport.

Owner of Jetworks Aviation and pilot Stephen Gale and MasterChef cameraman James Rose were the two occupants (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/masterchef-cameraman-james-rose-30-among-two-feared-dead-after-midair-plane-crash-over-victorias-mount-martha/news-story/16af3634880118c9b264ba0aec8382cf) of the downed jet who are still missing, The Herald Sun reported.

Mr Gale owns the two Viper S-211 Marchetti planes that crashed when one reportedly lost control off the coast of Mornington Peninsula.

He had joined the Royal Australian Air Force as an electronics engineer before taking up flying. Since then, he has flown jets at a number of events, including the Avalon International Airshow.

My condolences to family and friends, given they were filming I suppose vision may become available if gear is recovered for the investigation.

Chronic Snoozer

20th Nov 2023, 02:43

The aircraft type is being widely misreported as a "Viper S211 Marchetti". "Viper" is the callsign the formation was using and is not part of the name of the aircraft as far as I'm aware. One of the company's pilots being an ex-RAAF QFI probably inspired the choice of callsign.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/jet-crashes-into-port-phillip-bay-emergency-services-searching-water-20231119-p5el4e.html

Traffic_Is_Er_Was

20th Nov 2023, 03:10

...jet plunging 20 metres into the water...
If that is true, not much time to react.

spinex

20th Nov 2023, 03:42

V Sad news. Would this be an ex-RSAF aircraft? Is anything known of the aircraft that's reportedly returned to Essendon?

If that is true, not much time to react.

Nope, just the meeja getting the story crossed up again. The water is apparently around 20m deep where the bits of wreckage were found.

PiperCameron

20th Nov 2023, 04:06

Nope, just the meeja getting the story crossed up again. The water is apparently around 20m deep where the bits of wreckage were found.

Yep.. on a muddy bottom - mostly silt.

There's an eyewitness report floating around from on board a yacht up near Sandringham who saw the jets fly over and "nearly hit a helicopter".

Probably just an optical illusion given how many people were up flying yesterday, but was there any other traffic in close proximity at the time that might have resulted in momentary pilot distraction?? I doubt they were going slowly.

Squawk7700

20th Nov 2023, 04:51

So there's a curve-ball, the company was specifically formed FOR the TV show.

Jetworks Aviation (ARN757284) is a bespoke flying school specifically created for the Any Fool Can Fly (https://www.anyfoolcanfly.com/) television documentary in which some very talented individuals are taught to fly.

As the holder of a CASA 141 training approval certificate, Jetworks is capable of teaching ab-initio, formation, and aerobatic skills. In addition, the 141 certificate permits the issue of initial S211 endorsement training.

Our S211 Aircraft are Ex-Military, and as such it is important to understand that:

The design, manufacture and airworthiness of the aircraft are not required to meet any safety standard recognised by CASA

CASA does not require this aircraft to be operated to the same degree of safety as an aircraft on a commercial passenger flight.

A more detailed briefing about the safety of the aircraft will be given to the passenger before the passenger boards the aircraft.

The passenger flies in the aircraft at his or her own risk

All passengers will be required to acknowledge these statements prior to entering the aircraft.

Chronic Snoozer

20th Nov 2023, 05:24

I gather the ejection seats were neither functional nor required to be by the regulations.

Cloudee

20th Nov 2023, 05:32

So there's a curve-ball, the company was specifically formed FOR the TV show.
Does that mean they were filming the student learning to fly while travelling in formation?

logansi

20th Nov 2023, 06:14

Does that mean they were filming the student learning to fly while travelling in formation?

Doesn't sound like it. The passenger on the aircraft that returned was a current Qantas Captain and ex RAAF pilot according to reports.

I have a feeling that the filming was actually completed in the morning (seen over the city around midday) and this was more a joy flight to take one of the camera guys involved out to experience the jets.

UnderneathTheRadar

20th Nov 2023, 06:28

The passenger in the lost plane was a camera operator for high profile tv shows like MasterChef and others - so they may very well have been filming for the show

zhishengji751

20th Nov 2023, 06:41

Doesn't sound like it. The passenger on the aircraft that returned was a current Qantas Captain and ex RAAF pilot according to reports..

The Senior Instructor/Head of Operations as described on the Any Fool Can Fly page is ex-RAAF and currently with Jetstar.

DARKMAIZE

20th Nov 2023, 08:57

Doesn't sound like it. The passenger on the aircraft that returned was a current Qantas Captain and ex RAAF pilot according to reports.
I think (rumour) she might have been the instructor onboard the second jet. Althpugh strange if so the ATC mayday call sounded to be a male voice whom has not been identified yet.

Qantas pilot Joanne Mein was on board the fighter jet that landed at Essendon Airport following the tragedy.

Her recollection of what unfolded in the air before Mr Gale’s and Mr Rose’s plane plunged into the water will be central to the police investigation under way as authorities search for the bodies of the two men.

It is not yet clear whether Ms Mein was flying the plane that returned to the airport.

Squawk7700

20th Nov 2023, 09:02

I think (rumour understanding) she was the instructor onboard the second jet. ATC mayday call sounded to be a male voice whom has not been identified yet.

Maybe it was the other pilot listed on their page…

tartare

20th Nov 2023, 09:30

I gather the ejection seats were neither functional nor required to be by the regulations.

I searched the CASA website and Google - I assume the position still is that ejection seats in civilian owned ex military fast jets cannot be active due to maintenance and safety concerns?
Is there a specific regulation that refers to this?
I may have been searching using the wrong terms.

troyaviate1

20th Nov 2023, 09:35

Why didn’t they eject?

Kulwin Park

20th Nov 2023, 10:09

On their website of who their instructors are. Some names I see mentioned are the ones here:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1462x824/image_a096bfaf259bb276c02322cc6eda140e0fd18dc0.png

ahwalk01

20th Nov 2023, 11:26

Previous footage

Flying an S211 fighter Jet over Melbourne - YouTube

SpazSinbad

20th Nov 2023, 13:20

Investigations continue after two ex-military jets crashed midair off Victoria's coast
[VIDEO from Channel 9 News - some pilot audio describing crash]
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/investigations-continue-after-two-ex-military-jets-crashed-midair-off-victoria-s-coast/vi-AA1kcpXb

aroa

20th Nov 2023, 21:51

No bang seats, no parachutes either ?

PiperCameron

20th Nov 2023, 21:58

No bang seats, no parachutes either ?

Nope.. there'd be no way to use them anyway - not at the altitudes and speeds they were flying.

The passenger in the lost plane was a camera operator for high profile tv shows like MasterChef and others - so they may very well have been filming for the show

For a show like this one, they'd need to get an awful lot of 'B-roll' footage.. so that might explain the cameraman in the back seat instead of one of the punters.

SpazSinbad

20th Nov 2023, 22:43

Pilot and cameraman feared dead after ex-military plane crash [VIDEO]
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/pilot-and-cameraman-feared-dead-after-ex-military-plane-crash/vi-AA1kd6Hq
"The search to find two men who were onboard an ex-military plane that crashed into Victoria's Port Phillip Bay yesterday is being treated as a ‘recovery mission’.

Chronic Snoozer

20th Nov 2023, 22:45

Nope.. there'd be no way to use them anyway - not at the altitudes and speeds they were flying.

The Marchetti is usually fitted with MB10 seats, zero-zero capability so your statement is incorrect based on the publicly available information. Moot point if seats were in fact inert anyway.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091122052915/http://www.iapgroup.com.au/docs/s211%20jet%20trainers%20for%20sale%20x1.pdf

Squawk7700

20th Nov 2023, 23:59

Originally Posted by PiperCameron
Nope.. there'd be no way to use them anyway - not at the altitudes and speeds they were flying.

The most extreme speed they hit on the day was around 270 knots based on FR24 and the lowest altitude in the area was around 1,200ft.

The MB MK10 has a minimum height limit of ZERO feet and a maximum speed for ejection of 630 KIAS, so well within limits, IF it was indeed operative.

The issue at that height would be if the aircraft was inverted. You can indeed eject inverted, however I can't find the suggested data on the minimum safe deployment altitude for such a scenario.

junior.VH-LFA

21st Nov 2023, 00:28

The Marchetti is usually fitted with MB10 seats, zero-zero capability so your statement is incorrect based on the publicly available information. Moot point if seats were in fact inert anyway.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091122052915/http://www.iapgroup.com.au/docs/s211%20jet%20trainers%20for%20sale%20x1.pdf

He was referring to using parachutes, which is true that it's a complete waste of time going that fast and being that low. If the seat works, sure, but I am not aware of any civillian operated warbird jets in Australia with live seats.

Clinton McKenzie

21st Nov 2023, 00:29

I think we'll find that organisations with a CASA Certificate of Approval to do maintenance on ejection seats are pretty thin on the ground. The number with ITARs clearance to have access to current tech data on ejection seats manufactured in the USA would be thinner.

And the Operations Manual chapter dealing with the pre-, during and post-flight procedures for use of ejection seats in civilian operations would probably exceed the MTOW of the aircraft.

SpazSinbad

21st Nov 2023, 00:51

The most extreme speed they hit on the day was around 270 knots based on FR24 and the lowest altitude in the area was around 1,200ft. The MB MK10 has a minimum height limit of ZERO feet and a maximum speed for ejection of 630 KIAS, so well within limits, IF it was indeed operative. The issue at that height would be if the aircraft was inverted. You can indeed eject inverted, however I can't find the suggested data on the minimum safe deployment altitude for such a scenario.
PAF S-211 Flight Manual PDF (13Mb) : MIN SAFE Ejectjion Graph with the MK IT10LA Ejection Seat
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5ece8803c0e6c02242f70bc0/t/5f39c0941902447baae19c75/1597620406010/S211_PAF_flight_manual.pdf

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1775x808/s_211minaltejectinverted_1c3f635f8db30a9c75bec59be274a101962 e5918.gif

gerry111

21st Nov 2023, 00:55

And the Operations Manual chapter dealing with the pre-, during and post-flight procedures for use of ejection seats in civilian operations would probably exceed the MTOW of the aircraft.
Indeed.
(Somewhat in contrast to RAAF and RNZAF procedures for troops having flights in fighter jets, circa 1980. My preflight 'bang seat' briefings for Mirage and Skyhawk flights were each about a minute. But the really important stuff about ejecting before the pilot was well covered.)

SpazSinbad

21st Nov 2023, 01:03

Indeed.
(Somewhat in contrast to RAAF and RNZAF procedures for troops having flights in fighter jets, circa 1980. My preflight 'bang seat' briefings for Mirage and Skyhawk flights were each about a minute. But the really important stuff about ejecting before the pilot was well covered.)
Please tell us more about your 'briefings' with the RAAF Mirage & RNZAF Skyhawk. Were you in these Air Forces at the time or a civvie?

tartare

21st Nov 2023, 01:05

Indeed.
(Somewhat in contrast to RAAF and RNZAF procedures for troops having flights in fighter jets, circa 1980. My preflight 'bang seat' briefings for Mirage and Skyhawk flights were each about a minute. But the really important stuff about ejecting before the pilot was well covered.)

Same with RAF in late 90s on the Hawk... squipper ran through it all at lightning speed.
Then before brakes off was told "If we have EFATO I will call Eject, Eject. If you are still here after the second call - you will be by yourself."

Clinton McKenzie

21st Nov 2023, 01:05

Did I recently see a cockpit video of an ejection of the pilot and a troop on a jolly from an NZ Skyhawk, GIII? Flown by an erstwhile colleague?

gerry111

21st Nov 2023, 01:08

Please tell us more about your 'briefings' with the RAAF Mirage & RNZAF Skyhawk. Were you in these Air Forces at the time or a civvie?
I was a RAAF RADTECHA who worked on Mirages at WLM, BUT, RIC and EDN.

gerry111

21st Nov 2023, 01:18

Did I recently see a cockpit video of an ejection of the pilot and a troop on a jolly from an NZ Skyhawk, GIII? Flown by an erstwhile colleague?
I haven't seen that one, Clinton. Last I heard, NZ6252 was still flying for Draken in the USA as N141EM.

Chronic Snoozer

21st Nov 2023, 01:21

Did I recently see a cockpit video of an ejection of the pilot and a troop on a jolly from an NZ Skyhawk, GIII? Flown by an erstwhile colleague?

Was it the M339 video you saw?

Clinton McKenzie

21st Nov 2023, 01:29

That's the one! Mixing my Macchis with my Skyhawks...

tartare

21st Nov 2023, 01:34

That's the one! Mixing my Macchis with my Skyhawks...

Pretty dramatic video - you can hear the fear in their voices.
Back-seater was left with ongoing back issues I seem to remember - he was quite tall.

joe_bloggs

21st Nov 2023, 01:53

ABC reporting wreckage located.

Sorry, can’t add link for some reason.

Link: https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/search-continues-for-third-day-for-pilot-cameraman-missing-after-plane-crash/news-story/4eb0d8d1f3af76619fe6100323e3b4b0

DARKMAIZE

21st Nov 2023, 02:27

ABC reporting wreckage located.

Sorry, can’t add link for some reason.

Guardian.also..
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/21/port-phillip-bay-plane-crash-wreckage-ex-military-jet-found-mornington-james-rose-stephen-gale

Victoria police on Tuesday morning confirmed crews found a large part of the body of the plane off the shore of Mornington.

Police planned to search the fuselage once it was removed from the water

Desert Flower

21st Nov 2023, 05:06

Guardian.also..
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/21/port-phillip-bay-plane-crash-wreckage-ex-military-jet-found-mornington-james-rose-stephen-gale

Just watched the CH10 news & they are saying that retrieving the wreckage is going to be very tricky because the aircraft was fitted with ejection seats. It will require Navy clearance divers to do it.

DF.

PiperCameron

21st Nov 2023, 05:34

Just watched the CH10 news & they are saying that retrieving the wreckage is going to be very tricky because the aircraft was fitted with ejection seats. It will require Navy clearance divers to do it..

Even if they were inerted (ie. contain no explosives)?!?? Interesting..

Anyways, here's a good summary of what we know so far:

https://youtu.be/oxwTUW6mKa4?feature=shared

Squawk7700

21st Nov 2023, 05:44

Even if they were inerted (ie. contain no explosives)?!?? Interesting..

Anyways, here's a good summary of what we know so far:

https://youtu.be/oxwTUW6mKa4?feature=shared

Who confirmed that they are inert? That’s just hearsay.

junior.VH-LFA

21st Nov 2023, 06:05

Who confirmed that they are inert? That’s just hearsay.

Plenty of people know Stephen and the jet involved. The seats are inert.

Lead Balloon

21st Nov 2023, 06:24

We need to consult the guru: Geoffrey Thomas.

Or perhaps the MSM already have...

Mr Mossberg

21st Nov 2023, 06:26

Who confirmed that they are inert? That’s just hearsay.

Was inert when I flew in it.

Squawk7700

21st Nov 2023, 06:54

Plenty of people know Stephen and the jet involved. The seats are inert.

It wasn’t posted here until you just did, hence the comment. Surprised to hear about the Navy divers if what you say is correct.

Mr Mossberg

21st Nov 2023, 06:57

It may be that they treat it as live, even though they aren't. If I was the recovery dude or ette I'd be treating them as live.

Lead Balloon

21st Nov 2023, 07:14

Yes. As with signal flares in a sunken fishing boat, those non-existent ejection seat cartridges in a sunken aircraft should be approached with extreme caution.

We need to see an interview with Geoffrey.

Squawk7700

21st Nov 2023, 07:18

We need to see an interview with Geoffrey.

One of the Melbourne based TV networks had an “aviation expert” on after the crash and he was a little disappointing to put it politely.

Lead Balloon

21st Nov 2023, 07:21

ahwalk01

21st Nov 2023, 07:35

Squawk7700

21st Nov 2023, 07:37

Did you mean "disappointed" rather than "disappointing"? In the context of your post, the former is an observation about the expert's demeanour; the latter an observation about the expert's performance.

Yep, disappointing. As in, not a great representative of the industry.

At least GT dresses nicely and is clean shaven, he looks like he just stepped out of business class on Qantas.

Lead Balloon

21st Nov 2023, 07:47

You mean... out of the Qantas Chairman's Lounge.

Anyway, let's do an informal poll:

How many posters reckon the accident aircraft had any ejection seat explosives fitted?

VH-MLE

21st Nov 2023, 08:22

"Anyway, let's do an informal poll:

How many posters reckon the accident aircraft had any ejection seat explosives fitted?"

And the point of that is??

ahwalk01

21st Nov 2023, 08:29

"Anyway, let's do an informal poll:

How many posters reckon the accident aircraft had any ejection seat explosives fitted?"

And the point of that is??
to validate one's hypothesis

Lead Balloon

21st Nov 2023, 08:35

"Anyway, let's do an informal poll:

How many posters reckon the accident aircraft had any ejection seat explosives fitted?"

And the point of that is??Just a rough measurement and comparison of my levels of stupidity against others'.

ahwalk01

21st Nov 2023, 08:36

The ejection seat I sat on in my parachute had 'EJECTION SEAT INOP' plastered on it, so we may be splitting hairs here

VH-MLE

21st Nov 2023, 08:39

As far as investigating this accident goes, what we hypothesise is largely irrelevant. The status of the ejection seats will be ascertained before any recovery is instigated. While we're at it, how about an informal poll as to whether we believe marijuana should be legalised across the country?

ahwalk01

21st Nov 2023, 08:41

VH-MLE

21st Nov 2023, 08:41

"Just a rough measurement and comparison of my levels of stupidity against others'."

I think we know that already! :)

Lead Balloon

21st Nov 2023, 08:48

If the recovery of the aircraft and the deceased from the seabed is being delayed because of any bull**** about ejection seats on board being a danger to anyone, then we might as well delay recovery on the basis of an informal poll about whether someone's star signs are not propitious.

aroa

21st Nov 2023, 09:42

I mentioned parachutes. A couple have confirmed as worn on their flights.
Apart from a healthy altitude what did any pre flight briefing have to say about speeds ?
If the 2 Vipers were at dot feet, unuseable obviously.

Squawk7700

21st Nov 2023, 09:54

fdr

21st Nov 2023, 10:36

"Anyway, let's do an informal poll:

How many posters reckon the accident aircraft had any ejection seat explosives fitted?"

And the point of that is??

There is some ambiguity in that statement... One of my aircraft had inerted seats (FOL-1's) from 1995 when put on the FAA register. All good, inert, nice canopy jettison non explosive. 20 years later, a mechanic is over the seat removing the inert seat with a couple of other guys, and as it comes up the rail so they can get to the bits they want to do work on, the sound of a charge going off concentrated their minds. There are explosive sears in the seat as well, the "inert" didn't mean removal of all charges apparently.

The S-211 was inert when I looked at them from the guy who brought them into AUS. The canopy jettison would be the point of interest, it's a big canoe like the 326, 339, and the T1/T2s; getting out in an unsteady condition could be interesting. The L39's is better, like the SOG2, (the L39s likes coming off all by itself...) With wing LE damage, the chance that the other aircraft had tail or aileron damage is not zero, and from 2,000' there is not much time to sort out the issues when the aircraft is not responding nicely.

Sharing a cockpit from the outside at low level doesn't matter if it is a Pitts or a S-211, the potential for a bad day is substantial. ALARP applies.

SLFstu

21st Nov 2023, 11:55

Doesn't take long for the trolls to try to milk a tragedy.
Reported a random dude's FB post for mocking the female QF pilot who was in 1 of the seats in VH-DQJ.
How did he do that - by linking a short vid of a horribly bounced landing of a twin, naming her and saying it was her returning to SYD in her private plane.
Thoughtless idiot.

roundsounds

21st Nov 2023, 19:46

MJA Chaser

21st Nov 2023, 20:12

The ejection seat I sat on in my parachute had 'EJECTION SEAT INOP' plastered on it, so we may be splitting hairs here
INOP doesnt mean the explosive hazard is not present. Though I would think they coud sort that issue out in a 1 minute conversation with who ever maintains the aircraft

ahwalk01

21st Nov 2023, 20:29

INOP doesnt mean the explosive hazard is not present. Though I would think they coud sort that issue out in a 1 minute conversation with who ever maintains the aircraft

True but if there is no way for it to function surely it remains inert.

KRviator

21st Nov 2023, 20:57

True but if there is no way for it to function surely it remains inert.Not necessarily. Inop could mean no rocket motor fitted due to the original being timex, but you still have the guillotines and other not-so-nice bits in it that may still be servicable. Inert always = Inop, but not the other way around....

Fris B. Fairing

21st Nov 2023, 23:39

On the subject of ejection seats, can someone please explain the term "sear"?
Prof Google isn't helpful. I gather it's some sort of igniter.

Captain Dart

21st Nov 2023, 23:54

My understanding is that the 'sear' is a little slide-out piece of metal activated by a linkage or cable that lets a spring-loaded plunger strike the explosive charge. The Macchi MB326 seat had 7 safety pins that were removed before takeoff and one of them was a 'sear' pin to prevent the main gun from firing. That one and a coupla others were hard to get to so the 'groundies' removed them and handed them to the pilot after strap-in.

This is out of the cobwebs of my brain, so happy to be corrected.

Lookleft

22nd Nov 2023, 00:58

So was "BD" the pilot of the surviving jet? I noticed that the Guardian article referred to the Qantas spokesperson stating:

“The news has shocked the Qantas and Jetstar pilot communities and everyone’s thoughts are with these families,” the spokesperson said.

I'm interested to know why the Jetstar pilot community would be shocked.

SLFstu

22nd Nov 2023, 02:02

Re @roundsounds comment about the “thoughtless idiot” guy:

Who - my non-hero? Don’t think so, his FB profile was full of stupid memes, conspiracy theory crap and general unpleasantness. Charming, not.

But I agree with the other poster who praised the quals, skills etc of the Roulettes’ first female pilot (1999) among her other notable achievements.

Pearly White

22nd Nov 2023, 02:21

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-22/port-phillip-plane-crash-police-find-human-remains/103135486

SpazSinbad

22nd Nov 2023, 03:10

On the subject of ejection seats, can someone please explain the term "sear"?
Prof Google isn't helpful. I gather it's some sort of igniter.
The S-211 Flight Manual (details earlier for FREE download) may have more info however these two GIFs give most of the SEARing info for MB10 ejection seat with canopy breaker horns for occupants to eject through the canopy. The MB326H seat was a Mk.4 Martin-Baker with canopy breakers on the top of the seat in case the canopy did not separate. Then an interesting TIDBIT about the canopy ON THE GROUND when it cannot be opened. Heaven Forfend. Early MB326Hs did not have the CANOPY BREAKER TOOL wot was developed when a fatal crash caused by - canopy opening in flight - gave a wake up call about side opening freakin' canopies. [Also the canopy lock lever was redesigned.]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x806/s_211searsafetypintext_efd5fa6105836039db0cfa6a14eba81ccfbd7 c81.gif
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/717x1050/s_211searlocationsejectionseat_028fb0ffb826aa2e1e3749df04078 171fa1b3d42.gif
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1425x509/s_211explosivecanopygroundonly_9f9c6fe32aa6a330d268d5a45aa5d 789d8af9e43.gif

Chronic Snoozer

22nd Nov 2023, 03:21

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-22/port-phillip-plane-crash-police-find-human-remains/103135486

There but for the grace of God go I.

It is difficult for families to articulate their grief at times like this. Aviators will often reflect that a fellow aviator died doing what they loved and surely that is the case here for both Stephen and James. Contrary to what some have posted, I think we all respect our fellow professionals and their pursuit of the exhilaration of flight whatever the platform and whatever the mission. RIP.

High Flight

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, --and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of --Wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air...
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew --
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

John Gillespie Magee, Jr

Fris B. Fairing

22nd Nov 2023, 05:37

SpazSinbad and Capt Dart
Many thanks for that explanation.

miroho

22nd Nov 2023, 11:26

anyone can fly but not necessarily safely it seems

Mr Mossberg

22nd Nov 2023, 12:27

anyone can fly but not necessarily safely it seems

I'm tipping you didn't know Stephen? While the title of the show was probably tempting fate there is clear evidence that he surrounded himself with expertise (the HOO and other Instructors). He didn't skimp on his own training and obviously resourced his operation well. I doubt whether you'd have any idea on the safety aspects of this operation.

Ascend Charlie

22nd Nov 2023, 18:14

Early MB326Hs did not have the CANOPY BREAKER TOOL wot was developed when a fatal crash caused by - canopy opening in flight - gave a wake up call about side opening freakin' canopies. [Also the canopy lock lever was redesigned.]

SPAZ, we had an interesting demo at 2FTS in 1978 when a test was done on this canopy breaking tool. An unserviceable canopy was due to be tossed, so a test was devised.

Leroy the Boy was kitted up in full rig, helmet, mask etc and strapped into the seat, the canopy closed and locked, and "GO!"
He grabbed the tool, and started punching at the perspex. And punching. ...and...punching... and no damage was apparent. He ran out of puff with right hand, switched to left hand, tried over head swing, uppercut swing, and after a rest and around 7 minutes of punching, a small hole appeared top right. Lots more effort to enlarge the hole, puff puff, and finally a hole big enough for him to wriggle through was made and he squirmed out. Sadly, no film was recorded of this.

We all stood around, thinking that this magical tool was little use if he was on fire. Even less use if airborne and trying to get out before bumping into the ground.

SpazSinbad

22nd Nov 2023, 18:40

SPAZ, we had an interesting demo at 2FTS in 1978 when a test was done on this canopy breaking tool. An unserviceable canopy was due to be tossed, so a test was devised.

Leroy the Boy was kitted up in full rig, helmet, mask etc and strapped into the seat, the canopy closed and locked, and "GO!"
He grabbed the tool, and started punching at the perspex. And punching. ...and...punching... and no damage was apparent. He ran out of puff with right hand, switched to left hand, tried over head swing, uppercut swing, and after a rest and around 7 minutes of punching, a small hole appeared top right. Lots more effort to enlarge the hole, puff puff, and finally a hole big enough for him to wriggle through was made and he squirmed out. Sadly, no film was recorded of this.

We all stood around, thinking that this magical tool was little use if he was on fire. Even less use if airborne and trying to get out before bumping into the ground.
Heheh. :} Thanks - good to know - I'm glad I did not have to use it but very pleased the redesign of the canopy lock system was SAFE.

Scroll down to TWO pages of this 'PDF seen online' here for the 'MB326H open canopy in flight' (amended) story [original written by Grahame Higgs ex RAN ATC then RAAF] THE LOSS OF MACCHI A7-039:
"...On the 11th August 1970, Macchi A7-039 was returning to RAAF Gin Gin following an early instrument flying training sortie. As the aircraft came through initial (?? turning finals perhaps - tb) for Rwy 08, the canopy was seen to separate from the aircraft about halfway down the runway. A7-039 continued on to pitch just past the control tower and to impact in a clear patch of ground adjacent to the NDB. Unfortunately we lost both of the crew, the instructor in the front seat was incapacitated by the canopy departing in flight and the student in the back seat remained with the aircraft. The procedure in vogue at the time permitted the student in the rear cockpit under the instrument flying hood to slide the hood back at the end of the instrument sortie to take advantage of the visual approach and landing. In this instance there is a possibility that the student while sliding back the hood, (popularly known as “The Bag”) accidentally bumped open the canopy release handle...

...As a result of the loss of A7-039, the locking mechanism for the Macchi was redesigned and a clever cam device was introduced which eliminated accidental operation. In addition, the rear seat pilot under “the bag” would no longer slide the hood back for landing. It did mean however that in the event of ejection with the hood in place, the canopy had to be jettisoned first. When jettisoning the Macchi canopy both sides were released simultaneously which allowed it to clear the aircraft cleanly...."
Microsoft Word - Page15.doc (austradesecure.com) (http://www.austradesecure.com/radschool/Vol24/PDF/Page15.pdf)

SpazSinbad

22nd Nov 2023, 19:43

LONG STORY about RAAF Canopy Breaker KNIFE history (not in Vampires - crow bar behind right hand instructor seat):
Radschool Association Magazine - Vol 51. Page 16 (https://www.radschool.org.au/magazines/Vol52/Page16.htm)

ruprecht

22nd Nov 2023, 21:21

I'm tipping you didn't know Stephen? While the title of the show was probably tempting fate there is clear evidence that he surrounded himself with expertise (the HOO and other Instructors). He didn't skimp on his own training and obviously resourced his operation well. I doubt whether you'd have any idea on the safety aspects of this operation.

Plenty of us here are ex-military QFIs who know full well the intricacies of formation flying. If I were either of the two crew in Viper 1, I’d count my lucky stars and walk away from this entire operation.

Lookleft

22nd Nov 2023, 21:36

I doubt whether you'd have any idea on the safety aspects of this operation.

I would suggest that the safety aspects of the operation will be examined during the investigation seeing as they just had a fatal mid-air collision.

Tangosierra

22nd Nov 2023, 21:46

Hey Captain Dart
MB326H before takeoff checklist
1 - CANOPY - Closed and locked, cam on red, hanldle stowed, lanyard on, light off, Check rear
2 - PINS 6 front, check 5 rear
Its been 40 years since my last Macchi QFI sortie at 2FTS so that may be a bit cloudy as well!!
Regards

Captain Dart

22nd Nov 2023, 21:57

TS, I think you are right re the pins. Can't remember why the difference between front and back; maybe the canopy?

Why can I remember 'Speed below 150, speed brake in, landing gear down, three wheels, flasher out, fuel xxxxx threshold speed 105' but I can't remember what I had for dinner 2 nights ago??? :}

SpazSinbad

22nd Nov 2023, 22:45

Yeah memories ARE fun usually.:} Short story (with circumstances explanation missing) c.1973? Found myself lined up for take off RW 08 NAS Nowra watching the sun rise, waiting for known take off time for a Fleet Support sortie solo in a VC724 Macchi MB326H. YIKES! all the seat pins were still in the seat. Rather than a long taxi back to the line I decided to put my scoliosis to good use. Probably the straps were loosened a little and with my ease of rotating leaning left I could get at the pins, whilst rotating right was not so easy to put the pins in the slot. The MB Mk4 seat was really uncomfortable for me because it seemed to want to push me forward, I guess the parachute pack tended to do that mostly. During my Macchi flying time until mid 1974 I had permanent bruises on my shoulders from my EXTRA TIGHT need to be strapped in well. The original double visor helmets were the WORST! It tended to slip forward when under high G in the sweaty hot glass house canopy environment. GIF from RAAF Macchi MB326H Flight Manual.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/732x913/macchiseatpinsmanual_ec42d4df5118577975f6af5a57d3939ce107fe0 3.gif

Ascend Charlie

22nd Nov 2023, 22:46

'Speed below 150, speed brake in, landing gear down, three wheels, flasher out, fuel xxxxx(over 1000lb) threshold speed 105', hydraulics normal both gauges

Last used 1979, and I think it was muesli for yesterday's breakfast, not sure...

And a double visor story for Spaz:
Alfie the Knuck was in the back seat under the hood for a Staff IFR continuation trip. Cloudy day, so he didn't put the dark visor down.

A little while into the flight, the front-seater heard "F**#@! that hurt!!"
"Whatsa matter, Alfie?"
"I was checking to see if my clear visor was down, and I poked myself in the eye!"

SpazSinbad

22nd Nov 2023, 23:20

Heheh. Fun times. I knew an Allan wot became an QFI. Did he dunk a plastic parrot in the oggin at POINT COOK EFATO? Both crew OK. Meanwhile in the PDF of the MACCHI FM (gif below) the owner made the star on the new bit (marked with black vertical line) wot we did not do early on. ALL PINS in during strap in then ALL PINS handed to pilot to put into the thingo.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1497x727/interior_seat_pins_macchi_mb326h_gs_ran_raaf_jun1973_tif_468 d9de11223d75ac4c9d75cc96131e92c544c18.gif

spleener

22nd Nov 2023, 23:37

C'mon all you Maccherschmitt Aces, stop this thread drift now! :=
Have some decorum.
Else I'll give you all 10 Piggies each and a retro run to the Sight Board.

SpazSinbad

22nd Nov 2023, 23:45

MB326H canopy controls with new system [insert B].

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1631x1048/canopy_controls_macchi_mb326h_ran_raaf_jun1973_bb1d31e98ac6c 321f1f5c1ce6df1f8aee0dcceb9.gif

Ascend Charlie

23rd Nov 2023, 01:22

At the risk of heading for the sightboard, an ejection seat story. I was the Airmanship lecturer at 2FTS at the time, giving a lesson on the Martin-Baker Departure Lounge.For the ejection seat lessons, the best training aid was an actual seat, mounted on a rolling trolley. This enabled me to show how each of the timing systems was able to be armed and activated (to allow the seat to get clear of the fuselage, decelerate below 3g. and be below 10,000 feet) to open the parachute. Everything was present, except the explosive charges that fired it off.

After showing the class a film of how the seat works, and demos of strapping in and unstrapping, I called on a volunteer (“YOU! Get over here!”) and I ran through the strapping procedure again. This seat wasn’t particularly comfortable, but the longest flight was only 2 hours, so it was possible to tolerate it for that long.

The lucky volunteer had everything on except the helmet and oxy mask, so he was well trussed-up. The next part of the demonstration was for him to simulate ejection by reaching above his head for the ejection handles and pulling the face blind out and down over his face. When the blind reaches full extension and is covering the pilot’s face, the ejection sequence is triggered and (in a real seat) the first part of a three-part explosion is fired.

Well, in this case, the ground technicians who re-packed the seat after the last demonstration, put a small cartridge in the ejection gun. When the poor student pulled down on the face blind, there was an almighty BANG! which scared the crap out of everyone in the room, including me. And when the initial realisation came that the seat hadn’t actually launched through the roof, we all looked at the student, still with the blind over his face – slowly and shakily he lifted one edge of the blind and we saw a very white face emerge. Everybody broke up laughing, except him.

Captain Dart

23rd Nov 2023, 03:31

Ahhh….bungers brought in from Butterworth, lit and thrown into a full lecture room, door slammed shut, listening to the fun…

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 03:50

1900m at YMEN.
1330m at YMMB.

Makes sense. Also had more time for the dust to settle mentally. Familiar airport with better emergency and firefighting facilities and far less traffic than Moorabbin which was fairly horrid on Sunday, operating on 31/13. Would have been a cat amongst the pigeons for sure.

He was very clear about his desire to land on runway 26.

And 3048m at YMAV. But hey, overfly the city and inform the tower to watch out for anything that might fall off the aircraft.

PiperCameron

23rd Nov 2023, 04:57

And 3048m at YMAV. But hey, overfly the city and inform the tower to watch out for anything that might fall off the aircraft.

1. It would appear from his bio and the ATC audio that this pilot was not a novice and had a good understanding of the extent of damage to his aircraft.
2. From FR24 it seems the majority of his flight (a) was over water towards the city, (b) was in constant contact with ATC, and (c) did not "overfly the city" at any time.
3. YMEN is the home base for this aircraft and the pilot is familiar and comfortable with the airport environment there, with support services for his aircraft readily available.
4. YMEN also has emergency services available and a long enough runway for this aircraft to land on.

Just because something "might fall off the aircraft" is no reason for him to choose a comparatively unfamiliar airport with regular passenger operations and no support services, miles away from help. No, YMEN was as good (or better) as anywhere for him to go.

logansi

23rd Nov 2023, 05:07

1. It would appear from his bio and the ATC audio that this pilot was not a novice and had a good understanding of the extent of damage to his aircraft.
2. From FR24 it seems the majority of his flight (a) was over water towards the city, (b) was in constant contact with ATC, and (c) did not "overfly the city" at any time.
3. YMEN is the home base for this aircraft and the pilot is familiar and comfortable with the airport environment there, with support services for his aircraft readily available.
4. YMEN also has emergency services available and a long enough runway for this aircraft to land on.

Just because something "might fall off the aircraft" is no reason for him to choose a comparatively unfamiliar airport with regular passenger operations and no support services, miles away from help. No, YMEN was as good (or better) as anywhere for him to go.

The home factor is critical. Don't forget that in addition to the damage to the aircraft, the guy had just witnessed the assumed death of a good friend. In addition to support for the aircraft, I'm pretty sure all of us would want to get into the support of loved ones ASAP too.

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 05:13

So overfly densely populated area is not a problem because the flight is safe. But go to home base because it's an emergency is an issue.
I see.

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 05:15

The home factor is critical. Don't forget that in addition to the damage to the aircraft, the guy had just witnessed the assumed death of a good friend. In addition to support for the aircraft, I'm pretty sure all of us would want to get into the support of loved ones ASAP too.

An experienced pilot can't cope with landing at a >3000m N/S runway? You think he might not be able to find it?
I see.

Trevor the lover

23rd Nov 2023, 06:04

Piper - no emergency services at Essendon.

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 06:09

Piper - no emergency services at Essendon.
Why would they need emergency services?

PiperCameron

23rd Nov 2023, 06:10

Piper - no emergency services at Essendon.

Last time I checked, Essendon was between the city and Melbourne Airport. Believe me, if he'd needed emergency services, they'd be there!

Cloudee

23rd Nov 2023, 06:38

Why would they need emergency services?
Perhaps because they’ve been involved in a mid air collision?

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 06:44

Perhaps because they’ve been involved in a mid air collision?
Yes, that's my point. I'm just wondering how some people here view their own decision making.
If you listen to the ATC audio the pilot of the "Viper" aircraft tells Melbourne control that he intends to make a visual approach into rwy 26 at EN from 2500 feet and asks that the runway be inspected for debris afterwards.
Ummmm, sorry? But if that was me I would not overfly a densely built up area if I had unknown damage under my aircraft. Why not go to Avalon, and ask for whatever emergency services are required there. And while you're at it declare a Mayday for yourself as well.

Hueymeister

23rd Nov 2023, 06:49

Doesn't seem to be doing Canada any harm...or
Even the military can partake..with some stipulations...

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 06:52

Being a Jetstar pilot, he potentially knew Avalon very well !

Commercial / financial / personal / maintenance reasons frequently seem to trump the safer landing options.

Like flying past a perfectly serviceable airfield when one engine has failed, simply because “legally you can” sounds like a good idea at the time… but.

Lead Balloon

23rd Nov 2023, 07:49

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 08:08

So typical. Monday morning quarterbacks always know the safer option they would have taken after a collision in an aircraft they've never actually flown in circumstances they've never actually experienced. Let's all pile on to the surviving pilot!

It’s human nature to fly “home,” it’s human factors and we are probably all guilty of it in some circumstance at some stage of our flying. Very similar to get-home-itis. It’s in-bred and you can’t change it without a conscious effort. Airlines are good at managing this risk and cover it in their SOP’s.

Changing your planned destination can be mentally taxing under stress… you go back to what you know and it’s one of the reasons why we have so many VFR into IMC occurrences.

Lead Balloon

23rd Nov 2023, 08:24

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 08:55

So walk me through the thought processes and the timing of the processes through which you'd obtain and consider, for example, the NOTAMs for the destinations you hadn't planned to use, while flying a damaged aircraft of unverified endurance that was short on endurance during taxi before take-off. Or do you subscribe to the 'as soon as I declare a MAYDAY the closest available length of sufficiently long piece of tarmac will be safer than any other option' theory?

Avalon is class D with a tower and services large jets, so no doubt has suitable facilities. You don’t need to worry about NOTAM’s when ATC are involved. Frequency 135.7 would have meant no frequency changes to get them landed at Avalon. Avalon is probably around 5-7nm closer than Essendon too. Avalon would have far less traffic too or which likely all would be on an approach or departure versus circuits, so easy to clear out.

Moorabbin is probably another 5? miles closer, however it’s too short to add a safety margin, there’s too much traffic and it’s densely populated.

Those flying around the Melbourne basin would instinctively know these facts and I’d hazard a guess that they had some mention of this in their ops manuals, especially after what happened with the L39 operating out of Bankstown.

When Sully had his bird strike, ATC offered him multiple alternate runways to assist with his thought processes. I didn’t hear any alternates being offered in this instance.

illusion

23rd Nov 2023, 09:00

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 09:56

So typical. Monday morning quarterbacks always know the safer option they would have taken after a collision in an aircraft they've never actually flown in circumstances they've never actually experienced. Let's all pile on to the surviving pilot!

I'm not piling on the surviving pilot.

Was it the best option? Maybe, maybe not.

But on Thursday we can look at it again with a clear mind. The point is that there are Monday morning quarterquacks who pile on the idea that there is no better options than flying over built up areas after being in a midair collision.

Capt Fathom

23rd Nov 2023, 10:06

The pilot made his decision based on the information available to him at the time. He landed safely back at Essendon.

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 10:11

The pilot made his decision based on the information available to him at the time. He landed safely back at Essendon.
Yeah, that was lucky
Listen to the recording further up the thread. He also told ATC that there may be more damage to the aircraft that he knew about. So Thursday night we can listen to that recording and wonder why he didn't declare a Mayday. I guarantee you the ATSB will look at that as well.

Mr Mossberg

23rd Nov 2023, 10:12

Plenty of us here are ex-military QFIs who know full well the intricacies of formation flying. If I were either of the two crew in Viper 1, I’d count my lucky stars and walk away from this entire operation.

Well, they won't have the choice will they? The operation ceases to exist now.

Dunno what you're inferring from my original post? That the people he was working with are incompetent? Evidence suggests he was working with qualified instructors for the type of operation he was running. Are you saying some of your QFI mates wouldn't get involved in this type of flying? Is it only for military pilots? Civilian pilots aren't worthy of civilian jet formation flight?

What I know about Stephen personally was he sought the most qualified people to do his training.

Capt Fathom

23rd Nov 2023, 10:23

Yeah, that was lucky

That’s aviation. Every time you get back from a flight…. feel lucky.

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 10:27

That’s aviation. Every time you get back from a flight…. feel lucky.
Yeah, and feel like you have tried everything within your capabilities to NOT goof.
So I never kid myself that I made the best decision when clearly there was a better one. It's called learning. That's aviation.

Xhorst

23rd Nov 2023, 12:08

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 12:24

Please refrain from embarrassing Monday morning umpire opinions.

The ATC recording indicates the most professional and calm communication and decision making that I think I have ever heard in such a situation. The PIC just witnessed the possible death of presumably a best mate/business partner, and passenger/client. A lessor pilot would probably be in a blubbering mess. I probably would be. I cannot fault the decision making. The ATSB will spend their usual 2-4 years of deliberation over something he had minutes, and probably come to the same conclusion (or no conclusion, that's not really their job). In such a scenario, there is no "Mayday" requirement. There is no "Land at the nearest airport" requirement. There is no "Must avoid overflying an orphanage" requirement. It is down to the judgement of the PIC. Based on the extremely clear and concise coms with ATC and clear decision making apparent, I trust that judgement.

This was a tragic event, with a fortunate and safe outcome for one of the aircraft and its occupants.

All 4 individuals involved are very well known and respected members of the aviation and film industry.

A bit of respect, please, folks.
....and let's learn nothing in the meantime?

Imagine an alternative possible scenario. A part of the returning aircraft's airframe breaking off as the aircraft flew over Port Melbourne on its way to Essendon and the aircraft crashing in a fireball and killing a dozen people on the ground as well as the pilots on the aircraft.

If you've been involved in a midair over Port Philip Bay have some consideration of those you fly over while you're looking for somewhere to put down, and that may mean landing somewhere other than your departure airport. Is this asking too much?

Xhorst

23rd Nov 2023, 13:47

Is this asking too much?

Unless you have intimate insider knowledge of the nature of the accident and the damage to the airframe, then your alternative scenario exists purely in your imagination.

The PIC was there, and made an assessment and a decision. That was his job. There is zero evidence that the decision was a poor one. So given the tragic nature of the event, is it asking too much to keep armchair expert opinions where they belong?

WetCompass

23rd Nov 2023, 18:20

Unless you have intimate insider knowledge of the nature of the accident and the damage to the airframe, then your alternative scenario exists purely in your imagination.

The PIC was there, and made an assessment and a decision. That was his job. There is zero evidence that the decision was a poor one. So given the tragic nature of the event, is it asking too much to keep armchair expert opinions where they belong?

You really don't want to understand the point, eh?

In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday and consider alternative airports available other than just home base. That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 19:33

Unless you have intimate insider knowledge of the nature of the accident and the damage to the airframe, then your alternative scenario exists purely in your imagination.

The PIC was there, and made an assessment and a decision. That was his job. There is zero evidence that the decision was a poor one. So given the tragic nature of the event, is it asking too much to keep armchair expert opinions where they belong?

I’d be more worried about the aircraft dropping a wing due to the leading edge damage when the speed is reduced for landing. Those wings barely look like they are much more than 6ft long! It looks like a flying brick with an after-burner.

Clinton McKenzie

23rd Nov 2023, 19:44

I was fortunate enough to ask Garry Cooper some questions about his 'deadstick' landing of Mirage A3-29 into a disused strip at Tomago in May 1966 (there's a thread running with some info). I asked him whether he was supported or criticised for his decision to attempt the landing rather than 'bang out'. He said he was supported by the Williamtown hierarchy but criticised by Deaf Ear (Defence - Air Force Headquarters in Canberra).

What one person considers an extraordinary feat of airmanship another person will consider a lucky outcome despite a bad decision. It will ever be thus while pilots have opinions and feel the need to express them.

desmotronic

23rd Nov 2023, 19:48

So easy to be an expert keyboard warrior with the benefit of hindsight.

https://youtu.be/N1fVL4AQEW8?si=ByqGLk7uc0h-o1Fk

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Nov 2023, 20:14

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 20:57

How many hours in high performance jet aircraft do you have?

I know you have some kind of military exposure, however does it really matter?

Bernoulli’s principle applies regardless of the type of engine that is driving the wing, regardless of the length and size of the wing. Leading edge damage, is leading edge damage, regardless of the aircraft type.

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Nov 2023, 21:11

I know you have some kind of military exposure, however does it really matter?

Bernoulli’s principle applies regardless of the type of engine that is driving the wing, regardless of the length and size of the wing. Leading edge damage, is leading edge damage, regardless of the aircraft type.

Have you actually seen the photo of the aircraft in question?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x682/1700777249_326d23bf40b1416e905355d93f69d8a0c63f72b9.jpeg

I think you blokes are working pretty hard to find problems with something that was well handled. Anyone who knows BD will know he'd have considered the options and picked what was best on the balance of how the aircraft was handling and the other domestic considerations (including fuel state) - I am sure there was likely a cockpit discussion occuring between both highly experienced occupents as well. The aeroplane recovered safely at Essendon, a good outcome - for them at least.

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 22:32

Have you actually seen the photo of the aircraft in question?

Yes, I have also seen that grainy image that shows very little.

Fuel state is irrelevant as YMAV was closer. Also, they had literally just taken off, seemingly did their first manoeuvre and this happened. If they were short on fuel at that point, they shouldn't have been there.

It's not their fault, it's human factors. You'd probably have had to try very hard to convince them at the time that it was not a great choice. Even if ATC had offered choices, they would probably have been declined. I don't blame them, I blame human behaviours.

heretolearn

23rd Nov 2023, 22:37

In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday and consider alternative airports available other than just home base. That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.

Wet compass. It might be time to take a breath.

Do you know he didn't consider other airports?
Have you seen the damage to the returned aircraft? I have - No one here (with experience) would have had any issues carrying the problem to any airport in the Melbourne basin.
I've seen planes with hangar rash that look similar. I'd be willing to bet the damage caused no affect on how it flew. I'd also be willing to bet if handling was an issue, the nearest AD would have been sought.

Look into the difference between suitable and nearest. Certain scenarios dictate the second option, but not many.

Tracking coastal was wise.

He also had the added benefit of a vastly experienced aviator as PAX - extra eyes and ears. From both their seated positions I'd estimate they could see most of the damage and correctly assessed the problem could be carried.

Asking for a runway inspection was smart in case the landing knocked off any FOD.

I cant make any comment on their operation as a whole, but from the publicly available information, I can only hope to handle an emergency with the same level of calm and professionalism.

donpizmeov

23rd Nov 2023, 22:51

Have you actually seen the photo of the aircraft in question?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x682/1700777249_326d23bf40b1416e905355d93f69d8a0c63f72b9.jpeg

I think you blokes are working pretty hard to find problems with something that was well handled. Anyone who knows BD will know he'd have considered the options and picked what was best on the balance of how the aircraft was handling and the other domestic considerations (including fuel state) - I am sure there was likely a cockpit discussion occuring between both highly experienced occupents as well. The aeroplane recovered safely at Essendon, a good outcome - for them at least.

It is unfortunate that pilots like to eat their own.

This crew just had a pretty traumatic event, yet successfully, professionally and safely recovered their own aeroplane.

We have proof of that, because the aeroplane is parked up and the crew are helping with the investigation.

They are lots of really good learning points for new pilots in just listening to BD during his recovery. Anyone can be taught to fly an aeroplane with enough time. But not everyone can leave a traumatic event behind and concentrate on flying the aeroplane home. That's what BD did. I hope if I ever experience an adverse event I am able to step up and perform as well as this crew.

To those that seem to know better, take a step back, drop the ego for a bit, and put yourself in this crews shoes. They know the aeroplane well, as they fly it towards the edges of its envelope. They have many years of practice in higher performance aeroplanes. This isn't their first rodeo. The PIC is flying the aeroplane, he feels any vibration hears any noise can see any damage.He knows how the aeroplane is performing. He knows his fuel state. He is in a far better position to make any decision. And we have proof his decision was good enough. And that's all that is needed.

I hope that both crew members are doing well. Its never easy to loose mates.

m0nkfish

23rd Nov 2023, 22:57

You really don't want to understand the point, eh?

In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday and consider alternative airports available other than just home base. That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.

Well thats all pilots put back in their place by you then. What would actually be achieved by declaring a Mayday in such a circumstance I wonder, over and above the communication that appears to have taken place in this situation, where the pilot informed ATC of damage to the leading edge of the wing.

You must live in a strange world, or really think ATC are stupid, if you believe that 'declaring a mayday' would have changed anything. Or maybe you don't actually fly and just watch loads of flying movies.

How do you know the pilot didn't consider alternative airports?

Did you maybe consider that returning to a familiar airfield makes a lot of sense after this kind of event?

As for 'its called learning, thats aviation', the sensible people will wait for the facts before jumping to radical conclusions.

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 23:00

A decision was made that some people disagree with as being the safest course of action.

You can argue either way until the cows come home. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there's no set run-book for this, unless of course it's in an Ops manual, like it would be for an airline.

Was it the safest and most risk adverse decision? No.

Was it a decision that got them home safely? Yes.

Old Akro

23rd Nov 2023, 23:23

Was it the safest and most risk adverse decision? No.

I'm not sure about that. Essendon is in a control zone and the tower can manage other traffic. Avalon - not so much. If you have a wing that is comprimised, then you want as long a runway as possible, so that would be Essendon or Avalon only. I think there is a lot in favour of choosing to go back to home base and the airport with which you are most familiar.

There has been discussion of leading edge damage, but the photos that are publicly available don't really show it. Who knows, it may have been an initial conclusion by the pilot that turned out to be not so much of an issue. The pilot would have done an assessment of its flying capability after the touch that is better than any of us can do from armchairs.

I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.

PiperCameron

23rd Nov 2023, 23:27

Fuel state is irrelevant as YMAV was closer. Also, they had literally just taken off, seemingly did their first manoeuvre and this happened. If they were short on fuel at that point, they shouldn't have been there.

FWIW, unless fuel state was an issue (and it sounds like it wasn't), in my inexpert opinion, YMAV could be a totally inappropriate option following a low-altitude in-flight emergency near Mornington since your flight path would be (a) taking you well outside gliding distance of land and (b) from the moment you head west to get to one of the YMAV north-south approaches, taking you over deep unfriendly water a very long way from help, should you need to ditch along the way. Sure, you wouldn't kill anyone else, but staying coastal as he did makes the most sense to me.

vhjaj

23rd Nov 2023, 23:36

Squawk7700

23rd Nov 2023, 23:49

FWIW, unless fuel state was an issue (and it sounds like it wasn't), in my inexpert opinion, YMAV could be a totally inappropriate option following a low-altitude in-flight emergency near Mornington since your flight path would be (a) taking you well outside gliding distance of land and (b) from the moment you head west to get to one of the YMAV north-south approaches, taking you over deep unfriendly water a very long way from help, should you need to ditch along the way. Sure, you wouldn't kill anyone else, but staying coastal as he did makes the most sense to me.

They were well and truly already outside of gliding distance where they were operating.

If you look at the proposed flight path to YMAV it's not overly hostile. From your circuit at Moorabbin where you were looking yes maybe, but not from where they were off Mt. Martha.

Sure, you wouldn't kill anyone else

That's what this is all about.

megan

24th Nov 2023, 00:56

he was supported by the Williamtown hierarchy but criticised by Deaf Ear (Defence - Air Force Headquarters in Canberra)One can perhaps understand Canberras reticence Clinton when reading the manual, far easier to replace the aircraft than the man, can't argue with success though, great flying.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/508x555/ab266_59a4c43afc4aeec550b56067699bd85c8d830bae.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/496x1090/ab265_dffd47be474260f85215d4504048a804508729cd.png

I'm amazed that folk such as Wet Blanket think that the pilot had no mind as to what a forced landing in the suburbs might entail, been there, but over forested country.is it asking too much to keep armchair expert opinions where they belongI fear you may be asking for far too much these days Xhorst

Mr Mossberg

24th Nov 2023, 00:59

Those key heights are extroadinary.

Chronic Snoozer

24th Nov 2023, 01:05

Glides like a bunch of keys.

Clinton McKenzie

24th Nov 2023, 01:17

The landing at Tomago was not Garry Cooper's last deadstick landing in a Mirage. He walked away from a second one, albeit into a slightly better-prepared runway (Darwin).

john_tullamarine

24th Nov 2023, 01:22

Glides like a bunch of keys.

I had a back seat ride with Dave Robson, many decades ago. On the way back home to Avalon, after completing the test card, he demonstrated a flame out approach to this keen young chap ... and it was precisely as described in the post. Best flight of my little life, I have to say, and as clear a memory as if yesterday.

Clinton McKenzie

24th Nov 2023, 01:24

My two machbuster certificates are very precious to me!

WetCompass

24th Nov 2023, 01:43

Well thats all pilots put back in their place by you then. What would actually be achieved by declaring a Mayday in such a circumstance I wonder, over and above the communication that appears to have taken place in this situation, where the pilot informed ATC of damage to the leading edge of the wing.

You must live in a strange world, or really think ATC are stupid, if you believe that 'declaring a mayday' would have changed anything. Or maybe you don't actually fly and just watch loads of flying movies.

How do you know the pilot didn't consider alternative airports?

Did you maybe consider that returning to a familiar airfield makes a lot of sense after this kind of event?

As for 'its called learning, thats aviation', the sensible people will wait for the facts before jumping to radical conclusions.

Yeah, right, I just watch movies.

Go back up the thread and you see someone ask about other airports. Immediately, you experts jump on the person asking the question as some sort of personal offence. Personally, I think that was a good question. Seems that not many of you give a rats about who you are flying over. The fact of the matter is, that Avalon has a longer runway and there is no built up area to fly over to land there if there are any concerns about the integrity of the airframe and avoiding built up areas.

But hey, why give a **** about who you fly over. Make your decision to fly over as many houses as possible if you ever have an airframe problem.
Brilliant.
Now if you don't mind I have to go back to my Top Gun viewing..

SpazSinbad

24th Nov 2023, 01:59

To go with the marvellous 'megan' post above with text about a MIRACLE flameout - below is the GIF graphic. GOto for free download of the MIRACLE IIIO & IIID RAAF flight manual (PDF 70Mb): https://www.docdroid.com/MtUOJBE/australia-dassault-mirage-iiio-and-iiid-flight-manual-pdf
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x893/mirageraafflameoutpattern_8f89f23fe1c3202d5286acddfd4dbca2f8 f2c651.gif

SpazSinbad

24th Nov 2023, 02:01

Then there is the thread subject aircraft GLIDE / FLAMEOUT graphic from free source cited earlier.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/glide_flameout_s211_paf_flight_manual_919f917426c56be598f110 87c92d784ce521499d.gif

SpazSinbad

24th Nov 2023, 02:13

My two machbuster certificates are very precious to me!
Back when the earth WAS COOL that very nice ROBSON gave me a M 1 lift in the back of a MIRACLE out of NAS Nowra. I had just finished my A4G OFS when two MIRAGES came down for a few days for DACT. I flew against ROBSON in an A4G with DROP empty drop tanks and we had a stalemate with sortie ending due MIRACLE low fuel. As it happened there was an issue with the Mirages that required them to be able to divert back to WillyTown from NAS in case of an undercarriage problem IIRC. Anyhoo it was EYE-opening :} for sure to hit the burner from the back seat in my ride later that day. I was not given a certifcate (one may be found online) however my logbook entry has been cut/pasted onto it.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1629x1050/miraclemachcertificate_1dc6cfe43994faa6c6e6c7c957587dcba20da 8d1.jpg

Ascend Charlie

24th Nov 2023, 03:33

And sadly Dave Robson flamed out a few months ago, RIP.

DARKMAIZE

24th Nov 2023, 03:57

I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.

As someone with zero experience in this environment, I have to admit I have pondered this also.

One thing that many here are criticising he pilot for choosing a wrong airport, but last I checked there has been no confirmation that the two aircraft in fact touched each other, let alone what actually occurred to the returned plane. Perhaps there was a flock of birds involved and thus any damage was known to be minimal ornthe initiap call was made when they suspected damage in the heat ofnthe emergency momebt, but on second glance, all was operating as expected..

I do look forward to the official report in understanding what actually happened.

Cloudee

24th Nov 2023, 04:19

As someone with zero experience in this environment, I have to admit I have pondered this also.

One thing that many here are criticising he pilot for choosing a wrong airport, but last I checked there has been no confirmation that the two aircraft in fact touched each other, let alone what actually occurred to the returned plane. Perhaps there was a flock of birds involved and thus any damage was known to be minimal ornthe initiap call was made when they suspected damage in the heat ofnthe emergency momebt, but on second glance, all was operating as expected..

I do look forward to the official report in understanding what actually happened.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2023/report/ao-2023-057
Mid-air collision involving SIAI-Marchetti S211s, VH-DZJ and VH-DQJ, 25 km west of Tyabb Airport, Victoria, on 19 November 2023

SpazSinbad

24th Nov 2023, 04:27

And sadly Dave Robson flamed out a few months ago, RIP.
Very sorry to hear that. I believe he had an excellent RAAF career.

SpazSinbad

24th Nov 2023, 04:54

Story about Dave Robson & DELTAs Miracle team (I would guess 1970?). Alf Allen was an RAAF course mate on No.67 Pilot Course 1968.

WINGS_2022-winterWeb.pdf (wingsmagazine.org) (https://wingsmagazine.org/wings/archives/pdfDocs/WINGS_2022-winterWeb.pdf) (13Mb)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1442x809/deltamiraclesalf_robsonteam_fb5138e631636e9003bca563ec6a794f 51919fa9.jpg

1970's Mirage Display Team [10 minutes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8YvgGlXjY0

Squawk7700

24th Nov 2023, 06:00

I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.

I assumed you meant, how did Viper 1 get leading edge damage when it was the lead aircraft, meaning it should have been Viper 2 with the damage if they were holding formation according to their namesakes.

PiperCameron

24th Nov 2023, 06:55

I assumed you meant, how did Viper 1 get leading edge damage when it was the lead aircraft, meaning it should have been Viper 2 with the damage if they were holding formation according to their namesakes.

Are they not allowed to change lead to get better video?? That would be a first.. This is is a TV show, not the military.

Bleve

24th Nov 2023, 06:57

I'm still trying to figure out how the lead aircraft got leading edge damage.

The lead aircraft can be changed inflight for any number of reasons (eg training). Maybe at the time of the incident Viper 2 was leading and 1 was formatting.

I spy

24th Nov 2023, 07:44

When I listen to the recording of the comms, one of the first things I hear is "Viper 1, mayday mayday mayday". Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that he did in fact declare a mayday.
Yes, he did!

That's why I was so confused about all this bruh-haha regarding BD not declaring a mayday.....by the way, it was the most cool, calm and collected mayday call I've ever heard

Squawk7700

24th Nov 2023, 08:16

Are they not allowed to change lead to get better video?? That would be a first.. This is is a TV show, not the military.

I am very much aware of that. I was responding to a pondering.

junior.VH-LFA

24th Nov 2023, 10:35

Yes, he did!

That's why I was so confused about all this bruh-haha regarding BD not declaring a mayday.....by the way, it was the most cool, calm and collected mayday call I've ever heard

Because some people here are convinced no matter what facts are presented here that the lead pilot ****** up. One has to question what the motive is, other than the usual pilots eating their own.

helispotter

24th Nov 2023, 10:39

...last I checked there has been no confirmation that the two aircraft in fact touched each other, let alone what actually occurred to the returned plane. Perhaps there was a flock of birds involved and thus any damage was known to be minimal...

While the portion of comms with ATC (post #9) makes no direct reference to a collision, the summary of the accident on ATSB website certainly defines it as a mid-air collision between the aircraft.

ATSB also indicate damage to -DQJ as being "minor" consistent with one of the posts here. How did -DQJ sustain only minor damage while -DZJ seemingly became uncontrollable? Perhaps instead the pilot was incapacitated? That said, the recent Caboolture mid-air also resulted in only wing damage to the tow plane while the other became uncontrollable.

News reports also noted the 20m water depth (even if some articles scrambled this information). At first I thought a diving jet could easily impact the sea bed given depth is only about twice the length of the aircraft. But if it remained largely intact after water impact, it would decelerate very quickly due to its buoyancy, even from a vertical decent.

Capt Fathom

24th Nov 2023, 11:05

That is a lot of wondering!

Squawk7700

24th Nov 2023, 11:11

ATSB also indicate damage to -DQJ as being "minor" consistent with one of the posts here. It makes me wonder how -DQJ sustained only minor damage while -DZJ seemingly became uncontrollable. .

PURE speculation at it's finest, however this may answer your question as to how one aircraft can sustain minor damage and the other becomes uncontrollable. How can you end up so close? Once you add some bank angle in there on one or both aircraft, things go bad very quickly..

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/677x548/211_8f229ea247d1b7e11ad597cf872d7bf19fdac20d.jpg

helispotter

24th Nov 2023, 11:28

PURE speculation at it's finest, however this may answer your question as to how one aircraft can sustain minor damage and the other becomes uncontrollable. How can you end up so close? Once you add some bank angle in there on one or both aircraft, things go bad very quickly..

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/677x548/211_8f229ea247d1b7e11ad597cf872d7bf19fdac20d.jpg
So Squawk, realising you are speculating, are you suggesting aircraft on left would get a larger upsetting yaw moment on impact (due to contact at wing tip) sending it out of control while other maintains stable flight?

I notice ATSB summary makes reference to "formation manoeuvres" and some footage on TV also showed this before the accident, but what is to say at a later stage they were not doing simulated dogfight manoeuvres as I thought the website was indicating was offered on the regular package. The track of DQJ was certainly showing quite tight turns over the bay that I couldn't imagine would still be while in formation(?)

Afterthought: The orbits of DQJ could of course have been after the collision with pilots looking for the downed aircraft?

Rataxes

24th Nov 2023, 11:31

...In FUTURE midairs, if pilots are unsure of the extent of the damage to their aircraft, they should declare a Mayday...
If you listen to the ATC audio the pilot of the "Viper" aircraft tells Melbourne control that he intends to make a visual approach... And while you're at it declare a Mayday for yourself as well.
...So Thursday night we can listen to that recording and wonder why he didn't declare a Mayday. I guarantee you the ATSB will look at that as well.
Did you not listen to the recording? His Mayday declaration is clear as a bell.

That goes for ATC as well, perhaps they should suggest alternatives.
I doubt you'll find much support here for a pilot abdicating operational control of the aircraft to someone on the ground. I'm actually amazed you suggested it; maybe it's my fault for presuming you are a qualified pilot if you are in fact not.

Was it the best option? Maybe, maybe not....the idea that there is no better options than flying over built up areas after being in a midair collision.
There's no "maybe" about it. He landed safely and in minimal time with a level of damage he obviously took into account. He had all the available information to hand at the time; you have almost none of it to hand now. Case closed.

I thought I'd check in here for any developments and began with the last post and worked upward. There's probably much more malarkey in here than the above but by the time I got to those posts I couldn't stomach anymore. I work with pilots of many nationalities and the woeful, infantile standard of discourse in here makes me wary of admitting I'm from Aus. This is why people talk about oztronauts.

helispotter

24th Nov 2023, 11:51

That is a lot of wondering!
Solved: No more wondering after editing.

WetCompass

24th Nov 2023, 12:10

Did you not listen to the recording? His Mayday declaration is clear as a bell.

I doubt you'll find much support here for a pilot abdicating operational control of the aircraft to someone on the ground. I'm actually amazed you suggested it; maybe it's my fault for presuming you are a qualified pilot if you are in fact not.

There's no "maybe" about it. He landed safely and in minimal time with a level of damage he obviously took into account. He had all the available information to hand at the time; you have almost none of it to hand now. Case closed.

I thought I'd check in here for any developments and began with the last post and worked upward. There's probably much more malarkey in here than the above but by the time I got to those posts I couldn't stomach anymore. I work with pilots of many nationalities and the woeful, infantile standard of discourse in here makes me wary of admitting I'm from Aus. This is why people talk about oztronauts.

You can get the right outcome using the wrong process, so just reciting the outcome is insufficient.

There was a Mayday in the radio call. But for whom? Was he calling Mayday for the other aircraft or for himself? If it was for himself he didn't act like he was in any danger. So what was the Mayday for? It's the ambivalence in his behavior and the ambivalence in the discussion on this forum that concerns me. If he was indeed in danger then why fly over built up areas? If there was no danger why declare a Mayday? And that goes for ATC as well. If it's a Mayday, what's the nature of the danger? And none of this is about blaming anyone. It's about what could be done better between now and when the ATSB report comes out.

Well you can label all this "malarkey" if you like. But I have a feeling you're not really listening. All you're doing is attempting to humiliate the discussion out of existence. Why?

Checkboard

24th Nov 2023, 13:16

Because some people here are convinced no matter what facts are presented here that the lead pilot ****** up. One has to question what the motive is, other than the usual pilots eating their own.
I don't think so. This is a discussion forum. When events happen there are those who post

"Stop speculating - leave it for the official investigation." then there are those who post
"The pilot is a hero. How can you question their actions? You're being disrespectful." and then there are those who post
Hmmm. For my own education, I wonder if THIS bit could have been improved?

The first two get all emotional about it, perhaps because they know those involved. The third is simply using a discussion forum for it's very purpose - to bounce around ideas.

m0nkfish

24th Nov 2023, 17:27

You can get the right outcome using the wrong process, so just reciting the outcome is insufficient.

There was a Mayday in the radio call. But for whom? Was he calling Mayday for the other aircraft or for himself? If it was for himself he didn't act like he was in any danger. So what was the Mayday for? It's the ambivalence in his behavior and the ambivalence in the discussion on this forum that concerns me. If he was indeed in danger then why fly over built up areas? If there was no danger why declare a Mayday? And that goes for ATC as well. If it's a Mayday, what's the nature of the danger? And none of this is about blaming anyone. It's about what could be done better between now and when the ATSB report comes out.

Well you can label all this "malarkey" if you like. But I have a feeling you're not really listening. All you're doing is attempting to humiliate the discussion out of existence. Why?

Mate, you’re embarrassing yourself. If such a thing is even possible.

Squawk7700

24th Nov 2023, 19:37

WetCompass

24th Nov 2023, 19:37

Mate, you’re embarrassing yourself. If such a thing is even possible.
No argument. Just an attempt at an ad-hominem swipe and in the process dragging a professional network down to the level of twitter. Congrats

WetCompass

24th Nov 2023, 19:48

WetCompass, you are correct, the mayday call is a little strange. I guess it was a heat of the moment thing and far from rehearsed. If seems like he’s calling mayday for the downed aircraft, but realistically he’s declaring a mayday for the situation that covers both aircraft. What I do personally find a little strange (and again, with a shot of adrenaline thrown in there) is that he mentioned words to the effect of “we can see a splash mark; I don’t know what’s going on down there.” It’s just how he reacted to the situation, but it’s like he didn’t know what happened to the other aircraft.

Exactly my understanding.
Yes, there's the heat in the moment. Not blaming the surviving pilot, I might have done the same.

ATC asking him to squawk ident seems to be that ATC wants to locate the suspected crash site for a search of a downed aircraft. There appears to be no mayday action regarding the return flight, and I'm suggesting there should have been. Just like some discussion further up, the returning aircraft has been in a collision that took out one aircraft, it should not be assumed the damage to the returning aircraft is minor.

Squawk7700

24th Nov 2023, 21:04

So Squawk, realising you are speculating, are you suggesting aircraft on left would get a larger upsetting yaw moment on impact (due to contact at wing tip) sending it out of control while other maintains stable flight?

Take a close look at the image and note the critical component of the aircraft that could potentially come into contact with the leading edge of the other - the aileron. Again, wild speculation. For an aircraft to spectacularly depart controlled flight, short of a stall, it presumably has lost the ability to be controlled, and control comes from the elevator and ailerons.

Lookleft

24th Nov 2023, 22:43

For an aircraft to spectacularly depart controlled flight, short of a stall, it presumably has lost the ability to be controlled, and control comes from the elevator and ailerons.

That is a most probable scenario. Leading edge damage suggests contact with a control surface. A momentary lapse of concentration or a desire to get some spectacular footage perhaps but a tragic accident nonetheless. As to his decision to return to EN, well I would probably have done the same.

ramble on

24th Nov 2023, 23:10

Things can go pear shaped pretty quickly in close formation even from seemingly benign scenarios when everyone is not playing to the same script.

https://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publications/FinalReports/2014/Report_14_1X002_LearJet_EUFighter.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

megan

25th Nov 2023, 00:35

It makes me wonder how -DQJ sustained only minor damage while -DZJ seemingly became uncontrollableWill be answered in good time, depends on where the hits occur. Spaz can tell a story of how a youngster collided with his CO by hitting the underside of the bosses aircraft, the collision occurred to the lower aircrafts cockpit crushing and killing the youngster in the process. Caused a hydraulics failure in the bosses AC and the nose wheel collapsed when he took the arresting gear on landing.As to his decision to return to EN, well I would probably have done the same.Ditto, you make your assessments, controlability, level of known damage etc, talk of possibly crashing the aircraft in the suburbs, breaking news, it's a single engine aircraft and that could occur on any flight.

jonkster

25th Nov 2023, 01:00

There was a Mayday in the radio call. But for whom? Was he calling Mayday for the other aircraft or for himself? If it was for himself he didn't act like he was in any danger. So what was the Mayday for?

I have always understood you call mayday for your own aircraft not another. For another aircraft in distress the call would be a pan call. Has that changed or am I remembering this wrongly?

(To be honest though in the heat of the moment I can understand people ignoring letter of the law interpretations).

SpazSinbad

25th Nov 2023, 01:05

Will be answered in good time, depends on where the hits occur. Spaz can tell a story of how a youngster collided with his CO by hitting the underside of the bosses aircraft, the collision occurred to the lower aircrafts cockpit crushing and killing the youngster in the process. Caused a hydraulics failure in the bosses AC and the nose wheel collapsed when he took the arresting gear on landing. Ditto, you make your assessments, controlability, level of known damage etc, talk of possibly crashing the aircraft in the suburbs, breaking news, it's a single engine aircraft and that could occur on any flight.
Yes an horrific collision during a divisional practice bomb drop (starting from a loose [battle] formation during the start of a pull up for the dive then delayed fan into the dive) from a staggered start at the top of the dive. There is likely online info which I'll search out. The surviving A4G had the engine flameout with a good restart and a fuel leak also IIRC. Excellent airmanship on the part of the CO to recover his aircraft to a short field arrest etc.

Excellent accident report here: Skyhawk870-872Crawley.pdf (faaaa.asn.au) (https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Skyhawk870-872Crawley.pdf)

Chronic Snoozer

25th Nov 2023, 01:12

WetCompass

25th Nov 2023, 01:47

I have always understood you call mayday for your own aircraft not another. For another aircraft in distress the call would be a pan call. Has that changed or am I remembering this wrongly?

(To be honest though in the heat of the moment I can understand people ignoring letter of the law interpretations).

Mayday is for imminent danger, an immediate threat to the vehicle or life. Pan is an urgency call for assistance that is not an immediate threat or danger.
e.g. https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/about-us/our-services/how-air-traffic-control-works/in-flight-emergencies/

So a mayday call by an aircraft for another that may be unable to communicate appears to be appropriate. It sets the level of priority for calls on that frequency. However, in the case of the Vipers, it seems the emergency was focused on the aircraft that crashed in the water. The returning aircraft was treated more like I would have expected for a pan. I suppose it depends on how you perceive the danger following a midair collision. I would have thought you treat it as if an airframe failure or loss of control from the damage is imminent. Seems others on here think of it differently. As if a midair is some sort of minor occurrence.

WetCompass

25th Nov 2023, 01:53

Whilst pedants get busy debating the correctness of the distress call (only in Australia :ugh:), the incident pilots were busy collecting their thoughts having likely just witnessed their friends perish, and focussing on getting back on the ground
safely. It seemed like ATC knew what was going on so I guess that's the important thing.

Ummmm, no. It is not pedantic to review how we should use radio distress calls (and this is not just an Australian issue :ugh:). The distinctions are important. Once upon a time most pilots would have considered dipping into the fixed reserve fuel as a minor incident, probably not even worth any radio call at all. However, the international flying community reviewed it after many incidents and now it has become a Mayday call. We're seeing a gradual change in culture, believe it or not, towards taking safety more seriously. This is what a safety culture looks like.

megan

25th Nov 2023, 03:41

I have always understood you call mayday for your own aircraft not another. For another aircraft in distress the call would be a pan callI guess it's a matter of interpretation j (https://www.pprune.org/members/465334-jonkster)onkster, pertinent sentences from CASA for panMy aircraft and its occupants are threatened by grave and imminent danger and/or I require immediate assistance

I have an urgent message to transmit concerning the safety of my aircraft, or other vehicle or of some person on board, or within sight, but I do not require immediate assistance

It is also correct to use Pan-Pan if relaying a Mayday call from another aircraft or station that is out of rangeThe crashed aircraft never put out a mayday so it was not a relay, the pilots correct (my judgement) use of mayday signaled the gravity of the situation as he had no idea if the crew had survived the entry into the water, were injured etc and needed rescue or medical attention, also at the time of transmission he probably had not had time to assess his own state. Nothing wrong with calling mayday, you can always downgrade. From the ATC transmission he was aware of what might had happened and was promptly answered "Yes they're in the water". Obviously he, ATC, would then have called upon rescue services.

SpazSinbad

25th Nov 2023, 03:54

Agree. MAYDAY can be downgraded to PAN as circumstances change - I've dunnit. Meanwhile:
Police retrieve wreckage of fatal plane crash from Melbourne's Port Phillip bay
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/police-retrieve-wreckage-of-fatal-plane-crash-from-melbourne-s-port-phillip-bay/ar-AA1kuBsN

WetCompass

25th Nov 2023, 03:58

The PIC was an ex Roulette and CFS instructor, I suspect his knowledge of how to assess an aircraft’s airworthiness post trading paint might just be more than your own, or mine for that matter. I think you’re probably being a bit naive in thinking that he didn’t assess how the aircraft was handling and make a decision armed with all the information available that would achieve a safe outcome.

Yeah, nah.
How does the pilot sitting in the command seat assess the damage to the wing-spar, or tail section? Do you recall the Embry-Riddle Uni PA-28R that lost a wing during circuits? That flight had an examiner on board, he couldn't tell a fatigue crack was about to break. Why do we attribute super-human abilities of x-ray vision to pilots?

Fact of the matter is, the PIC of DQJ was concerned about something, but never actually stated the nature of his concern on the radio apart from mentioning something late in the flight about the runway needing inspection after landing. The wing had struck another aeroplane and the extent of the damage to the airframe was unknown at the time. There was a suitable airport available that did not require overflying built up areas for a landing and it was not offered up as an alternative by ATC and we don't know yet if it was considered by the crew. But there was mention of Moorabbin by ATC. Why? Well, we'll find out. But for now, not a criticism of the aircrew or ATC, but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, but we need to think about it clearly on the ground before we embark on our next flight.

smilie

25th Nov 2023, 04:55

... but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, ...

Without reviewing your CV, I'm guessing a better attitude may be, 'there by the grace of god go I.'

WetCompass

25th Nov 2023, 05:04

... but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, ...

Without reviewing your CV, I'm guessing a better attitude may be, 'there by the grace of god go I.'

Yeah, it's all about the CV, no need to consider the argument. It's just all ad-hominem attacks...

heretolearn

25th Nov 2023, 05:06

Yeah, nah.
How does the pilot sitting in the command seat assess the damage to the wing-spar, or tail section? Do you recall the Embry-Riddle Uni PA-28R that lost a wing during circuits? That flight had an examiner on board, he couldn't tell a fatigue crack was about to break. Why do we attribute super-human abilities of x-ray vision to pilots?

Fact of the matter is, the PIC of DQJ was concerned about something, but never actually stated the nature of his concern on the radio apart from mentioning something late in the flight about the runway needing inspection after landing. The wing had struck another aeroplane and the extent of the damage to the airframe was unknown at the time. There was a suitable airport available that did not require overflying built up areas for a landing and it was not offered up as an alternative by ATC and we don't know yet if it was considered by the crew. But there was mention of Moorabbin by ATC. Why? Well, we'll find out. But for now, not a criticism of the aircrew or ATC, but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, but we need to think about it clearly on the ground before we embark on our next flight.

Wetcompass - Genuine question. Are you a troll? I cant imagine anyone being so wrong so often other than on purpose?

Squawk7700

25th Nov 2023, 05:14

Wetcompass - Genuine question. Are you a troll? I cant imagine anyone being so wrong so often other than on purpose?

Where exactly are they wrong, which statement(s)?

junior.VH-LFA

25th Nov 2023, 05:46

Yeah, nah.
How does the pilot sitting in the command seat assess the damage to the wing-spar, or tail section? Do you recall the Embry-Riddle Uni PA-28R that lost a wing during circuits? That flight had an examiner on board, he couldn't tell a fatigue crack was about to break. Why do we attribute super-human abilities of x-ray vision to pilots?

Fact of the matter is, the PIC of DQJ was concerned about something, but never actually stated the nature of his concern on the radio apart from mentioning something late in the flight about the runway needing inspection after landing. The wing had struck another aeroplane and the extent of the damage to the airframe was unknown at the time. There was a suitable airport available that did not require overflying built up areas for a landing and it was not offered up as an alternative by ATC and we don't know yet if it was considered by the crew. But there was mention of Moorabbin by ATC. Why? Well, we'll find out. But for now, not a criticism of the aircrew or ATC, but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, but we need to think about it clearly on the ground before we embark on our next flight.

How to conduct a controllability check post airframe damage and what signs to look for is taught to every single military student pilot at the beginning of their careers. You keep making an assumption that no effort was made by the PIC to ascertain the status of the airframe, people here keep telling you that is probably not the case.

Of course you could be right and two ex Roueltte CFS instructors both took a heavily damaged jet that was buffeting at VREF home over Melbourne without any discussion or assessment during their emergency handling. Never say never, seems awful unlikely though.

WetCompass

25th Nov 2023, 05:56

How to conduct a controllability check post airframe damage and what signs to look for is taught to every single military student pilot at the beginning of their careers. You keep making an assumption that no effort was made by the PIC to ascertain the status of the airframe, people here keep telling you that is probably not the case.

Of course you could be right and two ex Roueltte CFS instructors both took a heavily damaged jet that was buffeting at VREF home over Melbourne without any discussion or assessment during their emergency handling. Never say never, seems awful unlikely though.

Ofcourse they could have done a controllability check post airframe damage. The PIC still had concerns about his airframe (checking for debris on the runway), and there was still a suitable airport that did not require overflying built up areas.

markis10

25th Nov 2023, 06:22

The mayday call was appropriate regardless of the condition of Viper 1, after all it was responsible for all comms for both aircraft.

mickjoebill

25th Nov 2023, 06:30

What are the regs regarding wearing of life preservers on an aircraft in this category during a short duration flight over water?

Mjb

DARKMAIZE

25th Nov 2023, 07:08

Airframe out of the water on a barge..

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1559x973/screenshot_20231125_190132_chrome_921de5f101e7e52be01078ec13 fe71e922aa1e75.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/899x508/screenshot_20231125_190138_chrome_d48d9b74a09789d3061a45aa6b e64d804ef21b38.jpg

Squawk7700

25th Nov 2023, 07:38

donpizmeov

26th Nov 2023, 01:07

Sobering pictures.

A good video here with some close formation around the 8min mark.

Note the high level of visibility of the leading edge due to the mid-wing design.

https://youtu.be/x7rfjleV5Ns?si=YHBcDOkZxl1bP043

Who would have guessed? I think a few posters have been making this point about the viability, and what the crew could see, hear and feel.

john_tullamarine

26th Nov 2023, 02:55

Oh, dear, that doesn't look to be what one might term a low energy impact .....

le Pingouin

26th Nov 2023, 03:09

The "squawk ident" was for identification purposes not for location marking.

Alice Kiwican

26th Nov 2023, 04:58

Oh, dear, that doesn't look to be what one might term a low energy impact .....

No it doesn’t! Hard to determine it was even an aircraft

helispotter

26th Nov 2023, 05:26

In Post #193 Squawk may be close to the mark: The Age article at https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/wreckage-of-crashed-jet-pulled-from-port-phillip-bay-20231125-p5emqk.html has: "Victoria Police Acting Superintendent Martin Bourke said the initial investigation indicated the wing of the plane struck the wing of another plane while they were performing tandem manoeuvres."

I also now realise 'wondering' if the jet would hit the sea bed in ~20m water depth was neither here nor there. Loads on the structure and deceleration on contact with water must have been massive given the wreckage.

Squawk7700

26th Nov 2023, 05:55

The "squawk ident" was for identification purposes not for location marking.

I've been meaning to ask about that LP... they showed up on FlightRadar 24 etc, but not on the AirServices WebTracker. Does that mean perhaps they used a SkyEcho with no mode charlie? Not relevant to the crash at all, but did notice this when I looked.

Pearly White

26th Nov 2023, 08:01

Did it have an FDR?

43Inches

26th Nov 2023, 10:09

Did it have an FDR?

I heard a snippet of news that claims the accident aircraft had multiple GoPros on it, filming the flight, so hopefully a few survived and were recovered for the investigation.

le Pingouin

26th Nov 2023, 11:53

fdr

26th Nov 2023, 12:01

Wetcompass - Genuine question. Are you a troll? I cant imagine anyone being so wrong so often other than on purpose?

Originally Posted by WetCompass
Yeah, nah.
How does the pilot sitting in the command seat assess the damage to the wing-spar, or tail section? Do you recall the Embry-Riddle Uni PA-28R that lost a wing during circuits? That flight had an examiner on board, he couldn't tell a fatigue crack was about to break. Why do we attribute super-human abilities of x-ray vision to pilots?

Fact of the matter is, the PIC of DQJ was concerned about something, but never actually stated the nature of his concern on the radio apart from mentioning something late in the flight about the runway needing inspection after landing. The wing had struck another aeroplane and the extent of the damage to the airframe was unknown at the time. There was a suitable airport available that did not require overflying built up areas for a landing and it was not offered up as an alternative by ATC and we don't know yet if it was considered by the crew. But there was mention of Moorabbin by ATC. Why? Well, we'll find out. But for now, not a criticism of the aircrew or ATC, but could we do better if it was us? Well I think so, but we need to think about it clearly on the ground before we embark on our next flight.

The ERAU accident involved a competent and professional FAA DPER, John Azma, who I knew well,, from Orlando Executive. The failure he had was not foreseeable by the crew and was not survivable, shades of a certain Macchi loss of Willie many years ago. I had a sister ship tot eh one that was lost, but was far fewer hours and cycles, and we grounded my one from testing subject to detailed inspection. Losing a wing is a permanent mess to your day.

As far as who calls what, when the exhaust system fell off Glenn Todd and Kell Aldridge's aircraft and took out my propeller and silenced Pete Nalder for most of the rest of the flight, trimming his nose somewhat, I seem to recall that I put out the mayday for both aircraft, and funny enough, no one actually complained about that at the time or subsequently. Years later, sitting around Dave Stevensons hanger at Corona ("Dave crashes better than anyone I know...") 3 of us in the hanger had lost props in flight, and not one of us was complaining about the mayday calls that we had made.

The Mayday call gets a bit of peace on the line, and gets some attention to what the guys are going to come up with next, is is supposed to.

As far as controllability checks go, they were -1 and NATOPS standard procedures, seeing is nice but the plane will talk to the driver and suggest a course of action if they have the sense to listen and apply simple "CDF" to the matter at hand.

fdr

26th Nov 2023, 12:02

Squawk7700, I'm presuming they were operating VFR so were probably squawking 1200 and given the aircraft rego was showing up on FR24 they had ADS-B. WebTrak may have been "censored" to remove the accident aircraft.

Normally only the leaser would be squawking mode A/C, the rest are squawking stay for close form. Serious question, if that has changed, I am all ears.

le Pingouin

26th Nov 2023, 14:02

For military sure, but these were civilian doing their own thing VFR OCTA.

junior.VH-LFA

26th Nov 2023, 19:46

For military sure, but these were civilian doing their own thing VFR OCTA.

this is still very much a procedure for civilian formations.

DARKMAIZE

26th Nov 2023, 20:08

I've been meaning to ask about that LP... they showed up on FlightRadar 24 etc, but not on the AirServices WebTracker.

Pretty sure webtrak must have been censored. On the day, when I landed and heard about the accident, I was looking around trying to work out what was in the area that day, and I spotted two jets headed south low level off the coast just passed Moorabbin at around the 1:15PM mark. They both didnt turn up for long as I remember (like they flew im then out of range or something). I note they no longer show up on there today.

Edit: in hindsight, that timeline doesn't quite stack up, but odd that I saw it at the time ( I sent a text to my brother discussing it, so not like memory playing tricks on me)

Squawk7700

26th Nov 2023, 20:31

It was all over the news by about 230pm so your timeline recollection is probably correct.

I was up flying and was going to head over to Drysdale from Mt Martha way and assumed some kind of SAR exercise was taking place in the danger area as there were half a dozen aircraft in the one spot.

WetCompass

26th Nov 2023, 22:09

The ERAU accident involved a competent and professional FAA DPER, John Azma, who I knew well,, from Orlando Executive. The failure he had was not foreseeable by the crew and was not survivable, shades of a certain Macchi loss of Willie many years ago. I had a sister ship tot eh one that was lost, but was far fewer hours and cycles, and we grounded my one from testing subject to detailed inspection. Losing a wing is a permanent mess to your day.

As far as who calls what, when the exhaust system fell off Glenn Todd and Kell Aldridge's aircraft and took out my propeller and silenced Pete Nalder for most of the rest of the flight, trimming his nose somewhat, I seem to recall that I put out the mayday for both aircraft, and funny enough, no one actually complained about that at the time or subsequently. Years later, sitting around Dave Stevensons hanger at Corona ("Dave crashes better than anyone I know...") 3 of us in the hanger had lost props in flight, and not one of us was complaining about the mayday calls that we had made.

The Mayday call gets a bit of peace on the line, and gets some attention to what the guys are going to come up with next, is is supposed to.

As far as controllability checks go, they were -1 and NATOPS standard procedures, seeing is nice but the plane will talk to the driver and suggest a course of action if they have the sense to listen and apply simple "CDF" to the matter at hand.

Regarding a wing falling off messing up your day, that's exactly right. But why mess up someone else's day as well? If you're in doubt, then you should act on it. So hugging the coast and asking for a runway to be inspected after landing indicates there was some doubt. Diverting to Avalon would be a way of avoiding the potential to mess up someone else's day.

Regarding the Mayday call, I agree it's quite appropriate for the lead to call Mayday on behalf of both aircraft. But in this case the focus seemed to be almost entirely on the downed aircraft. I could be wrong, but Melbourne Control advised Moorabbin of a possible emergency. No mention of Avalon as an option when there was a possibility of a damaged aircraft flying over built up areas for either Moorabbin or Essendon. I'm just saying perhaps it would have been a good idea to include Avalon as an alternative. Not sure why so many on the forum seem to have issues with keeping all options open.

FullOppositeRudder

26th Nov 2023, 23:48

Not sure why so many on the forum seem to have issues with keeping all options open.

Perhaps they don't have these issues of which you speak. We've had just over a week now to 'consider all options'. We don't know that the highly competent crew on board the surviving aircraft didn't consider all options available to them, but given their vast experience, one can be confident that that did. They settled for the best option at the time in their judgement, and it turned out to be the right one. Subsequent and frequent protests by someone who wasn't there, and didn't have the information that they did (and still doesn't), that it wasn't the right one, are rather tiring and frankly pointless, and reminiscent of the ordeal which 'Sully' had to endure after his decision making process was under scrutiny by people who likewise weren't there, but knew he should have done something different - until it was proven that the alternatives would have been catastrophic. Please cut the guys a bit of slack on this one, and hope earnestly that none of us reading this are ever put in that situation ourselves.

WetCompass

27th Nov 2023, 00:36

Perhaps they don't have these issues of which you speak. We've had just over a week now to 'consider all options'. We don't know that the highly competent crew on board the surviving aircraft didn't consider all options available to them, but given their vast experience, one can be confident that that did. They settled for the best option at the time in their judgement, and it turned out to be the right one. Subsequent and frequent protests by someone who wasn't there, and didn't have the information that they did (and still doesn't), that it wasn't the right one, are rather tiring and frankly pointless, and reminiscent of the ordeal which 'Sully' had to endure after his decision making process was under scrutiny by people who likewise weren't there, but knew he should have done something different - until it was proven that the alternatives would have been catastrophic. Please cut the guys a bit of slack on this one, and hope earnestly that none of us reading this are ever put in that situation ourselves.

Yeah, Sully, NOT. Sully could have chosen to turn back to the airport he took off from, but took the option to land in the river rather than risk crashing into a built up area.
It's not the pilot of the Viper I'm questioning, so there's no "slack to be cut". It's that people on the forum who refuse to consider the Avalon option. If you had some doubt about the integrity of the airframe you were flying, would you choose to fly over built up areas? Or would you maybe ditch in the river (like Sully)--or land at an aerodrome that didn't require flying over a built up area?

I spy

27th Nov 2023, 01:08

Yes, that's my point. I'm just wondering how some people here view their own decision making.
And while you're at it declare a Mayday for yourself as well.

A mayday was declared.......for both aircraft

Chronic Snoozer

27th Nov 2023, 01:11

It's not the pilot of the Viper I'm questioning, so there's no "slack to be cut". It's that people on the forum who refuse to consider the Avalon option.

So Thursday night we can listen to that recording and wonder why he didn't declare a Mayday.

why give a **** about who you fly over. Make your decision to fly over as many houses as possible if you ever have an airframe problem.

So what was the Mayday for? It's the ambivalence in his behavior

Sounds like you are.

Which is fine I guess in the long run but perhaps some posters prefer to gather more information about the events before judging. Perhaps the ATSB investigation will reveal more.

WetCompass

27th Nov 2023, 01:31

Sounds like you are.

Which is fine I guess in the long run but perhaps some posters prefer to gather more information about the events before judging. Perhaps the ATSB investigation will reveal more.

Am I criticizing the pilot? Or ATC for that matter? No. As you quoted me I said "here we are Thursday night", so we can look at scenarios like that and have a think about what we might do.
He did what he did and he got away with it, the wing didn't drop off over a built up area. Do we really have to wait a whole 2 years for the ATSB to perhaps have some thoughts about what we might do differently if we were involved in a midair?

PiperCameron

27th Nov 2023, 01:38

Am I criticizing the pilot? Or ATC for that matter? No. As you quoted me I said "here we are Thursday night", so we can look at scenarios like that and have a think about what we might do.
He did what he did and he got away with it, the wing didn't drop off over a built up area. Do we really have to wait a whole 2 years for the ATSB to perhaps have some thoughts about what we might do differently if we were involved in a midair?

Whilst I can't speak for others here, the chances of me ever being involved in a mid-air, in a fast jet, at low altitude, over Port Phillip, and outside of gliding range of the nearest land is lower than my chances of flying to Mars.. and for that reason I'm happy to hear the pilot in this instance made it safely back to terra firma and applaud his actions in doing so. What I (or, I suspect, you) would do in the circumstance is irrelevant.

desmotronic

27th Nov 2023, 01:41

Wetcompass,
His primary responsibility is the safety of the aircraft and passenger. Difficult imo to fault an immediate turn toward MB being closest at that point and track close to the coast. From then on AV would have been further away. You don’t know that he didn’t consider AV and decided EN was safest. You don’t have to agree with it but that doesn’t make it the wrong decision.

interesting channel 9 I think reported he was inverted when they came into contact or just before.

junior.VH-LFA

27th Nov 2023, 01:52

A mayday was declared.......for both aircraft

It's honestly bewildering how much scrutiny is being applied to a Mayday call in this thread, especially in the context of what was a calm and seemingly well reasoned series of radio calls after a fatal mid air.

itsnotthatbloodyhard

27th Nov 2023, 01:55

It's not the pilot of the Viper I'm questioning

Of course you are, you’ve spent thousands of words here doing exactly that. Apart from questioning the choice of landing field, you repeatedly claimed he hadn’t declared a Mayday, and then when it was pointed out that he had, pivoted to taking issue with the ‘vibe’ of the Mayday. If you’re claiming that this is all about ‘learning’, well God forbid we rely on learning from the uninformed opinions of random anonymous people on the internet. BTW the aircraft is not a Viper, it’s an S.211. ‘Viper’ was the formation callsign.

Your contributions here are an embarrassment and I would urge you to stop.

WetCompass

27th Nov 2023, 02:09

Of course you are, you’ve spent thousands of words here doing exactly that. Apart from questioning the choice of landing field, you repeatedly claimed he hadn’t declared a Mayday, and then when it was pointed out that he had, pivoted to taking issue with the ‘vibe’ of the Mayday. If you’re claiming that this is all about ‘learning’, well God forbid we rely on learning from the uninformed opinions of random anonymous people on the internet. BTW the aircraft is not a Viper, it’s an S.211. ‘Viper’ was the formation callsign.

Your contributions here are an embarrassment and I would urge you to stop.

Yep, and there's the strawman and the ad-hominem attack.
So rather than addressing the point about the availability of another aerodrome and how the Mayday was acted upon by Melbourne Control, you stick to interpreting me out of context and lowering my status to a "random anonymous" person.
Well done, many on Twitter would be proud of you.