CX SO Prospect

[pandaexpress]

For those of you who left CX as a SO, where are you now?
How did you log your hours as SO and how did that translate back home?

[ProgressYonder]

For those of you who left CX as a SO, where are you now?
How did you log your hours as SO and how did that translate back home?


I moved back to Australia and flying domestic. A lot more rewarding flying and less chronically fatiguing. Also nice to speak about anything other than management and the company on the flight deck.

If you looking at getting out good luck in your search. Enjoyed the some of the time at CX but glad I have left.

Logged P2X for time in seat as always translated to co-pilot time in Aus logbook as that’s how the Qantas SO’s log it.

[Dirty Lungs]

Strange question....there's only one way to log your S/O hours, its outlined in the front pages of your logbook.

[pandaexpress]

Strange question....there's only one way to log your S/O hours, its outlined in the front pages of your logbook.

I'm not a pilot and don't have a logbook. I'm just trying to pull info and options together. If I understand correctly, SO logs P2X/P2 time at the frontseat and log total time under total time col for the whole flight?

[pandaexpress]

I moved back to Australia and flying domestic. A lot more rewarding flying and less chronically fatiguing. Also nice to speak about anything other than management and the company on the flight deck.

If you looking at getting out good luck in your search. Enjoyed the some of the time at CX but glad I have left.

Logged P2X for time in seat as always translated to co-pilot time in Aus logbook as that’s how the Qantas SO’s log it.

Good to hear. Did you log total flight time under total time col as well? How many P2X hours and total time were you able to log within the first 3 years of service?

[Dirty Lungs]

Assuming you held a P2X rating and not a P1, you can only log the time in the seat. So your 12 flight to London you'll probably get six hours in the seat, that's what you can log.

[ProgressYonder]

Good to hear. Did you log total flight time under total time col as well? How many P2X hours and total time were you able to log within the first 3 years of service?

As others have said. It’s logged as time in seat. It therefore would count as total time because you are doing cruise relief ops. You are still flying the aircraft.

P2X is a contrived creation by CX and the HKCAD to try and prevent SO’s moving on before becoming FO for CX. The initial rating at CX as of Sep 2017 is the same as what a Direct entry FO would do in the simulator. Any other authority would give you a P1 rating based off your simulator training but the HKCAD requires you to complete 3 Touch and Go’s in an actual aircraft even though a level D simulator is designed to be “as close to the real aircraft.”

Cx SO’s have been able to get positions based off there P2X experience in Aus and US as you still have jet experience. Emirates don’t recognise P2X but need for experienced crew might alter that.

In 3 years you could hit anything between 800-1200 hours depending on your roster and how effectively rostering is working. You can fly a max of 900 block hours in a year. A little under half of that 900 will be time in seat if you logging accurately. (Noting time you get in and leave the seat vs taking half the flight time).

If you are not a pilot why are you interested?

[Boulanger]

Many of the SOs I know who landed jobs elsewhere had to augment their CV with some sort of past experience in addition to their P2X hours. Not saying it's not possible, but options are severely constrained with P2X alone, which unfortunately is by design. Even in places like Aus, where cruise hours straight go to the copilot column, employers will still look to see what kind of flying one actually did, and cruise hours are less competitive compared to actual P1 and and P2 hours.

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[pandaexpress]

Thanks, this is very helpful. I am a student pilot in the US with HK dual citizenship and ultimately want to become an airline pilot in the US but I'm not too interested in instructing my way to 1500 and thus exploring my options. How likely are SO hours recognized in the US especially by the regional carriers?

As others have said. It’s logged as time in seat. It therefore would count as total time because you are doing cruise relief ops. You are still flying the aircraft.

P2X is a contrived creation by CX and the HKCAD to try and prevent SO’s moving on before becoming FO for CX. The initial rating at CX as of Sep 2017 is the same as what a Direct entry FO would do in the simulator. Any other authority would give you a P1 rating based off your simulator training but the HKCAD requires you to complete 3 Touch and Go’s in an actual aircraft even though a level D simulator is designed to be “as close to the real aircraft.”

Cx SO’s have been able to get positions based off there P2X experience in Aus and US as you still have jet experience. Emirates don’t recognise P2X but need for experienced crew might alter that.

In 3 years you could hit anything between 800-1200 hours depending on your roster and how effectively rostering is working. You can fly a max of 900 block hours in a year. A little under half of that 900 will be time in seat if you logging accurately. (Noting time you get in and leave the seat vs taking half the flight time).

If you are not a pilot why are you interested?

[pandaexpress]

Many of the SOs I know who landed jobs elsewhere had to augment their CV with some sort of past experience in addition to their P2X hours. Not saying it's not possible, but options are severely constrained with P2X alone, which unfortunately is by design. Even in places like Aus, where cruise hours straight go to the copilot column, employers will still look to see what kind of flying one actually did, and cruise hours are less competitive compared to actual P1 and and P2 hours.

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How about the US and other countries if I may ask?

[Boulanger]

How about the US and other countries if I may ask?

​​​​​​In places like Canada, cruise time is somewhat recognized since Air Canada has their own relief pilots, but the job market is full of pilots who gain turboprop and other experience right out of flight school, and those people are more marketable. Plus those at AC are all generally quite experienced anyways.

In the US I'm not sure, but all carriers that operate heavier aircraft there have fully rated pilots, and there is no equivalence of P2X time. I do know of SOs who went to the US, but they all had some kind of past experience in addition to an FAA license. Flight instructing might sound undesirable, but PIC time even in a single engine piston is much more valuable than P2X time. In the past few years, the US has been desperate for pilots, but I wouldn't bet the job market to be that rosy forever.

​​Keep in mind that if you consider CX, you will also be bonded for a number of years. If you do not get upgraded to a first officer in any reasonable amount of time (which unfortunately, has been the case for many), you might still not be that marketable by the time the bond is up.

​​​​​​As a general rule of thumb, P2X time is the least valuable experience compared to all others on fixed wing aircraft. While CX does give you some competencies in managing larger aircraft, it will be harder to sell yourself due to the lack of stick and rudder time.

[Porterboy]

Thanks, this is very helpful. I am a student pilot in the US with HK dual citizenship and ultimately want to become an airline pilot in the US but I'm not too interested in instructing my way to 1500 and thus exploring my options. How likely are SO hours recognized in the US especially by the regional carriers?
Is Cathay even planning on hiring DESO's again? Last I heard, that ship has sailed and they're now filling those ranks exclusively with local cadets. i.e. your only option as someone who's trained elsewhere is to join as a DEFO. The experience you need to be a DEFO would be pretty competitive for US majors or at least the regionals, no? Not sure I'd walk away from that to go to CX.

[pandaexpress]

Thanks. I just started training and barely have 20 hours logged. DEFO needs 1500 and I don’t think I want to be instructing after flight school to get to that.

Is Cathay even planning on hiring DESO's again? Last I heard, that ship has sailed and they're now filling those ranks exclusively with local cadets. i.e. your only option as someone who's trained elsewhere is to join as a DEFO. The experience you need to be a DEFO would be pretty competitive for US majors or at least the regionals, no? Not sure I'd walk away from that to go to CX.

[dingodyle]

How about the US and other countries if I may ask?

Hi Panda express,

Unfortunately SO time is largely a Cathay construct and is not really recognized in most places around the world. This is true for the US, and also Canada, despite the post above saying otherwise. EK will not accept it, I'm not sure about Australia. UK apparently have just began to accept it at half. US regional carriers in an interview will likely have never heard of such a foreign concept, and will be skeptical of it.

Not many places will recognize it making it next to useless; that's not to say the job is uesless it's more to say being an SO for the logbook is not productive move forward. People become an SO for the promotion to FO, of which the time is very useful and valuable for applying for other jobs. The only problem with that is you have to be an SO first, and currently there are SOs at Cathay who have been stuck in that position for 8+ years so it's a big commitment to see through.

As an aside, it seems like your position is that you are a HK US dual national with the goal of a career in the US but with the option to be a cadet in HK. I would look at it as how long will it take you from Day 1 in HK to having a useful chunk of FO time in the logbook to make you marketable to US carriers, rather than gaining SO time

[rudestuff]

Any low time pilot with the right to live and work in the US who isn't building time as a CFI while applying for jobs needs their head examined. If you get a jet job outside the US then great, your piston time will put you closer to upgrade. If you don't then once you hit the magic 1500/1250/1000 you'll be in a regional jet anyway.

[H21SE]

The CFI route would probably be the quickest option. There are also other low time options.

Most, if not all of U.S. Regionals have better work rules (trip, duty, min day, DH) than CX. Many offer a flowthrough to mainline.

Seems like a no brainer unless you want to live in HKG.

[stevieboy330]

P2X time is worthless anywhere else. That's why CX did it, so they could keep their boot on the back of your neck. However the fact that you held down a job at Cathay is generally regarded as a positive. Most employers know that CX is a terrible place to work but their training & cockpit standard is world class, that will help you get a job in OZ.

[a334]

​​​​​​In places like Canada, cruise time is somewhat recognized since Air Canada has their own relief pilots, but the job market is full of pilots who gain turboprop and other experience right out of flight school, and those people are more marketable. Plus those at AC are all generally quite experienced anyways.

In the US I'm not sure, but all carriers that operate heavier aircraft there have fully rated pilots, and there is no equivalence of P2X time. I do know of SOs who went to the US, but they all had some kind of past experience in addition to an FAA license. Flight instructing might sound undesirable, but PIC time even in a single engine piston is much more valuable than P2X time. In the past few years, the US has been desperate for pilots, but I wouldn't bet the job market to be that rosy forever.

​​Keep in mind that if you consider CX, you will also be bonded for a number of years. If you do not get upgraded to a first officer in any reasonable amount of time (which unfortunately, has been the case for many), you might still not be that marketable by the time the bond is up.

​​​​​​As a general rule of thumb, P2X time is the least valuable experience compared to all others on fixed wing aircraft. While CX does give you some competencies in managing larger aircraft, it will be harder to sell yourself due to the lack of stick and rudder time.

It's still not very clear to me what exactly P2X time is, and how that time is defined in conventional ICAO terms... You mentioned Air Canada, which I always knew had cruise relief pilot (known as RP) positions. What I didn't know until recently, is that RPs at AC are issued RP type ratings, not full type ratings, which to me seems to essentially be the same thing as a CX SO type rating.

So with that said, if an AC RP can log the time while sitting in the seat during cruise as normal SIC time (P2 equivalent I suppose), I don't really see why CX SO time can't be logged the same as an AC RP with respect to ICAO standards... It's essentially the same job and type rating

[Boulanger]

It's still not very clear to me what exactly P2X time is, and how that time is defined in conventional ICAO terms... You mentioned Air Canada, which I always knew had cruise relief pilot (known as RP) positions. What I didn't know until recently, is that RPs at AC are issued RP type ratings, not full type ratings, which to me seems to essentially be the same thing as a CX SO type rating.

So with that said, if an AC RP can log the time while sitting in the seat during cruise as normal SIC time (P2 equivalent I suppose), I don't really see why CX SO time can't be logged the same as an AC RP with respect to ICAO standards... It's essentially the same job and type rating

I used "somewhat recognized" only because there is, as you say, separate RP ratings in Canada, and because pilots there would typically dump all their cruise hours into the "Co-pilot" column of their logbook. I'm not sure if an CX SO doing the same if applying for a job in Canada would have the same recognition. I'd say probably, but to not lose sight of the bigger picture, being employable is still a huge problem. This is because when an employer goes through the logbook during the recruitment process, they would assess (assuming they are doing their jobs) the kind of flying the applicant has performed. If the overwhelming majority of a pilot's logbook is cruise time without takeoffs and landings, this makes him/her far less employable than someone with actual P1/P2 time.

[controlledrest]

P2X time is worthless anywhere else. That's why CX did it.

Not true. Email the aviation regulator in the country you want to work, explain the situation ask them how to record the flight time in their logbook. An email should get you a written response. Ask the regulator, not pprune.

.... their training & cockpit standard is world class, that will help you get a job in OZ.

Not true anymore. Training cut below bare minimum. Captain PC now includes 'Landing to FO' module a bit different from the one in the command course. Objective now is to recover FO's f**ked up landing attempt and still get a landing out of it (save the cost of a go around). So, it is now acceptable to release FOs to the line who struggle to land the aircraft.

[a334]

I used "somewhat recognized" only because there is, as you say, separate RP ratings in Canada, and because pilots there would typically dump all their cruise hours into the "Co-pilot" column of their logbook. I'm not sure if an CX SO doing the same if applying for a job in Canada would have the same recognition. I'd say probably, but to not lose sight of the bigger picture, being employable is still a huge problem. This is because when an employer goes through the logbook during the recruitment process, they would assess (assuming they are doing their jobs) the kind of flying the applicant has performed. If the overwhelming majority of a pilot's logbook is cruise time without takeoffs and landings, this makes him/her far less employable than someone with actual P1/P2 time.

Fully agree with you, but what gets me is that at AC, one can go widebody RP straight to narrowbody captain (this assumes you have an atpl, which virtually all do) and it's been done before... So if an AC pilot can go captain after years of being an RP and not having landed an actual plane in years, you would think P2X time from CX would be valued the same as "co-pilot" RP time at AC.

On the other end of the spectrum, you would think an AC RP applying to the likes of EK, should not have their RP time counted since in essence it's the same as P2X time... I know we're getting a bit into semantics, but reality is, if we're counting hours logged as per ICAO, time in seat is time in seat... You sat 1000 hours in a 777, it shouldn't matter if it was done as an RP in Canada, Europe, HK, or anywhere else, if one is looking purely at hours for hiring requirements...
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[pandaexpress]

Hi Panda express,

Unfortunately SO time is largely a Cathay construct and is not really recognized in most places around the world. This is true for the US, and also Canada, despite the post above saying otherwise. EK will not accept it, I'm not sure about Australia. UK apparently have just began to accept it at half. US regional carriers in an interview will likely have never heard of such a foreign concept, and will be skeptical of it.

Not many places will recognize it making it next to useless; that's not to say the job is uesless it's more to say being an SO for the logbook is not productive move forward. People become an SO for the promotion to FO, of which the time is very useful and valuable for applying for other jobs. The only problem with that is you have to be an SO first, and currently there are SOs at Cathay who have been stuck in that position for 8+ years so it's a big commitment to see through.

As an aside, it seems like your position is that you are a HK US dual national with the goal of a career in the US but with the option to be a cadet in HK. I would look at it as how long will it take you from Day 1 in HK to having a useful chunk of FO time in the logbook to make you marketable to US carriers, rather than gaining SO time

Thanks for chiming in. Allow me to go off topic a bit, I notice there is a HKIAA cadet program and chances are cadets will also become SO in one of the three regional airlines: HX, UO, GBA. Will the SO time in these airlines be more translatable to other countries as they will be at the right seats of the narrow body, logging P2 time?

[Boulanger]

Thanks for chiming in. Allow me to go off topic a bit, I notice there is a HKIAA cadet program and chances are cadets will also become SO in one of the three regional airlines: HX, UO, GBA. Will the SO time in these airlines be more translatable to other countries as they will be at the right seats of the narrow body, logging P2 time?

If you get on with any of those carriers, you will get a full P1 rating and will log P1US and P2. You will fly the right hand seat, either as an FO or as an SO doing an FO job. The experience gained is translatable and is in fact very valuable.

The caveat is that this cadet program is self funded and a job is not guaranteed.

[pandaexpress]

If you get on with any of those carriers, you will get a full P1 rating and will log P1US and P2. You will fly the right hand seat, either as an FO or as an SO doing an FO job. The experience gained is translatable and is in fact very valuable.

The caveat is that this cadet program is self funded and a job is not guaranteed.

Yes right, have heard similar. Based on your knowledge, how many hours average will SO/FO in those carriers fly in a month? A year?

[Boulanger]

Yes right, have heard similar. Based on your knowledge, how many hours average will SO/FO in those carriers fly in a month? A year?

50-80 hours per month. 700-900 per year.

[pandaexpress]

50-80 hours per month. 700-900 per year.

Thanks. What does the SO starting compensation package look like in the carriers?