Entitlement to wear RAF 'wings'

[212man]

Watching the Remembrance Sunday parade yesterday, on TV, there was reference to an RAFA Ambassador. I was curious/nosey, so found their website and had a scroll through their list of ambassadors and came across Vic Norman: https://rafa.org.uk/about/ambassadors/#norman He is wearing a pair of wings (please don't hijack the thread with discussions about wings/brevets/badges etc!) and I was curious how he is able to wear them because, by all accounts, I cannot see any reference to him having been an RAF pilot.

[langleybaston]

Watching the Remembrance Sunday parade yesterday, on TV, there was reference to an RAFA Ambassador. I was curious/nosey, so found their website and had a scroll through their list of ambassadors and came across Vic Norman: https://rafa.org.uk/about/ambassadors/#norman He is wearing a pair of wings (please don't hijack the thread with discussions about wings/brevets/badges etc!) and I was curious how he is able to wear them because, by all accounts, I cannot see any reference to him having been an RAF pilot.

The idea of "honorary wings" [if such they are] is not entirely novel: a couple of Kings and Winston Churchill sported RAF Flying Badges.
Look no hijack!

[NutLoose]

I would say this honorary lady is a pilot but does not wear wings on her uniform


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x933/30f6ef1800000578_0_image_a_5_1454869236551_5d5cadfec32f88351 5db3b1183ce9c1ef9c91289.jpg




AP 1358, CHAP 7
Preliminary – Flying. Eagle of drab silk embroidery – on dark blue melton cloth.
(Pilot - QR 728)

0713. When entitled to wear one of the flying badges described at Para 0713, it is to be worn on the left breast of the No 1, 1A, 6 uniform jacket
immediately and centrally above the top line of conventional breast pockets (when fitted) and in a corresponding position on the heavy jersey,
women's dresses. They are not worn on No 3 Dress (CS 95, etc). When medal ribbons are worn, flying badges are to be placed directly above the
top row of medal ribbons, with a space of ¼" (6.5 mm) between the lowest part of the badge and the upper edge of ribbon(s).
a. A flying badge, being a qualification badge, is not to be regarded as either a decoration or the equivalent of a regimental badge.
Service personnel are not to wear any of the badges listed above and in QRs unless authority for them to do so has been granted in
accordance with the regulations prescribed from time to time by the Defence Council.
b. An officer, on ceasing to be employed on flying duties, and an airman on being remustered to a ground trade, unless ordered
otherwise, may elect to wear any of the badges for which he has been previously qualified./QUOTE]

https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/RAF%20Dress%20Regulations.pdf


[QUOTE]A UK military flying badge is awarded to Aircrew by a single-Service Approving
Officer once the appropriate standard on an approved training course has been met,
iaw Queen’s Regulations

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1188129/RA2101_Issue_7.pdf

[212man]

Is that Carol Vordeman? In what way is she a pilot? Not a QSP. I’m not sure your quotations have done other than strengthen my question about why Vic is wearing wings.

[Yellow Sun]

As stated above, it’s really very simple, successfully complete the appropriate course, have the stamp or certificate in your logbook and you’re good to go.

If you read Air Cdr John Clements autobiography “Electronic Airborne Goldfish (https://www.diandsaulbooks.co.uk/electronic-airborne-goldfish-by-john-clements-4390-p.asp)”, he almost certainly deserved a flying badge but never qualified for its award.

YS

[ETOPS]

In what way is she a pilot?

She has a licence and her own aircraft registered N242CV

[Exrigger]

I take it this is the gentleman in question:

https://www.aerosuperbatics.com/about-us/founder/

[beamer]

Impressive CV but no sign of any entitlement to the flying badge as far as I can see.

[NutLoose]

She has a licence and her own aircraft registered N242CV

Correct, a civilian pilot as is the person mentioned in post one. Except she does not wear any wings and I don’t think he should be either, unless he has been given specific permission, though the MOD has been diluting down their stature by flogging them off for use by various clothing brands

[RetiredBA/BY]

Honarary group captain, so who. made that promotion and why ?

[NutLoose]

The RAF did, she is the Honorary ambassador for the RAF Cadets, and does an excellent job of it.

see

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/news-archive/celebrity-aviator-carol-vorderman-receives-flying-award/

[ShyTorque]

As stated above, it’s really very simple, successfully complete the appropriate course, have the stamp or certificate in your logbook and you’re good to go.
YS

Not forgetting that the holder subsequently needs to qualify as combat ready in order to ratify the award. If not, the entitlement is lost.

[teeteringhead]

Someone should "have a word" with Mr Norman, and make an appointment with the Station Tailor. It seems clear that he is not entitled; and his wearing of the Flying Badge (or whatever you want to call it) may be seen as offensive by many.

Wearing of "Wings" is jealously guarded; I see the Prince of Wales wears RAF Wings on his Army uniform(s) - correctly - and his baby brother Harry - also correctly - wears/wore his Army wings on RAF uniform.

[Edited to add:]. Of course I apologise if I've missed something and he is entitled.......

[Herod]

I have no problem with "Honorary Air Commode" (not a misspelling), but "honorary pilot"?

[VX275]

This chap never soloed but no one was brave enough to tell him he couldn't wear the wings.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/620x413/gettyimages_515204596_1049a45_5c04555088644784f29d97fd8b160c e7bd6fa617.jpg

[212man]

Teetering, I don’t think there’s any question. He is a pilot (I knew) but not a QSP.
https://pilotweb.aero/flying/pilot-profile-vic-norman-mr-wingwalking-8413820/

[meleagertoo]

Not forgetting that the holder subsequently needs to qualify as combat ready in order to ratify the award. If not, the entitlement is lost.
I rather doubt that.
"Wings" are awarded for the successful completion of the designated military flying course. Once awarded they cannot be removed, and certainly not for failure to qualify as "combat ready" (which, after all, would be hard for a creamie or transport pilot). One assumes you meant "operational", but even so - have wings keep wings.
No one took my wings away when I was chopped on (RN) AFT - which is the course before OFT. Nor could they.
And the CAA recognised them as qualification for a CPL to boot. Without them there would have been little or no credit towards a CPL at all.

[tutgby]

I actually don’t care either way, but it was always my understanding that wings were awarded for a particular flying course but to ratify them you had to become operational on a frontline type (FJ / RW / AT / creamie etc.). Creamie because he is qualified as a QFI on type (operational).

For example. If Bloggs was awarded a Flying Badge but then was chopped on an OCU and re-branched to a ground trade he wouldn’t wear wings? Because he is not aircrew? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Gordon Brown]

I rather doubt that.
"Wings" are awarded for the successful completion of the designated military flying course. Once awarded they cannot be removed, and certainly not for failure to qualify as "combat ready" (which, after all, would be hard for a creamie or transport pilot). One assumes you meant "operational", but even so - have wings keep wings.
No one took my wings away when I was chopped on (RN) AFT - which is the course before OFT. Nor could they.
And the CAA recognised them as qualification for a CPL to boot. Without them there would have been little or no credit towards a CPL at all.

There was a pilot chopped from a FJ OCU some years ago who had his wings taken off him. Some time later he passed the same OCU as a nav and had a pretty successful career.

[BEagle]

If I recall correctly, the rules for confirmation of 'Wings' changed about 20 years ago when the 'combat ready' (or equivalent) criteria were adopted?

Didn't it used to be something like '6 months on first squadron' ?

[NRU74]

I was doing Aircrew Selection at Hornchurch in late 1960 or early '61 and I saw an SAC with 'Wings'. I couldn't ask him as he was riding a bike.

[Yellow Sun]

This chap never soloed but no one was brave enough to tell him he couldn't wear the wings.


I wasn’t aware of this:

On 1 April 1943, the twenty-fifth anniversary of the creation of the RAF, the Air Council with the King’s approval awarded honorary wings (the flying badge of the Royal Air Force) to the Prime Minister.

So there is a precedent.

​​​​​​​YS

[Ninthace]

My father was in the Royal Observer Corps and wore wings. I was giving a presentation to his Group on my war role as a Military Scientific Adviser and what I did with the information they supplied, At the end, I mentioned Dad was hiding at the back and, tongue in cheek, suggested that he might want to buy me a drink as he was incorrectly dressed since we was wearing wings with a Queen's Crown and his should have had a King's Crown. I got away with it, in fact I think he might have been a bit proud of his lad, who was a member of the horfficer class, whereas he was of the generation where you could be a pilot without having rings on your sleeve.

[212man]

I wasn’t aware of this:



So there is a precedent.

YS
Not sure the owner of a wing walking display team is in the same league as Churchill but, I guess, technically maybe there is precedent. If that’s what has happened or, as Teetering has alluded to, it may be an overzealous order at the tailors.

[Lima Juliet]

This chap never soloed but no one was brave enough to tell him he couldn't wear the wings.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/620x413/gettyimages_515204596_1049a45_5c04555088644784f29d97fd8b160c e7bd6fa617.jpg

Not so. In March 1943, the RAF was getting ready to celebrate its 25th anniversary on 1 April of that year. Given Churchill’s key role in the early development of military aviation in the UK — not to mention his other noteworthy contributions to Britain’s survival — and knowing of his earlier valiant efforts to learn to fly, the Air Ministry proposed that he should be awarded honorary pilot’s wings to go with his rank of honorary air commodore. King George VI approved of this decision, and so Churchill was informed that as of 1 April 1943, he was being given the right to wear wings on his uniform, as a special honour.He wrote a letter of thanks to the Air Ministry:

I take it as a high compliment that the Air Council should wish to give one of their honorary air commodores his honorary wings.

At this moment we may say without vanity that the Royal Air Force—taken for all in all—is “Second to None.” At this moment it is the spearpoint of the British offensive against the proud and cruel enemy who boasted that he would “erase” the cities of our native land, and hoped to lay all the lands under his toll and thrall. As the world conflict deepens, the war future of the Royal Air Force glows with a still brighter and fiercer light.

I am honoured to be accorded a place, albeit out of kindness, in that comradeship of the air which guards the life of our island and carries doom to tyrants, whether they flaunt themselves or burrow deep.

From that point on, Churchill wore his wings. It still didn’t mean he was allowed to fly RAF aircraft, though he was occasionally permitted to take the controls while in flight.

It was also reported in many newspapers in 1943 at the time. Here is the New York Times story:
https://www.nytimes.com/1943/04/02/archives/gift-of-raf-wings-honors-churchill-prime-minister-wins-coveted.html

[Old-Duffer]

Post 21 by NRU74. The man in question was a wartime pilot and he left the RAF but reenlisted in a ground trade - perfectly entitled to the flying badge.

In the years up to about 1970, there were a great many 'other ranks', entitled to wear the flying badge but sadly they are no longer around.

Old Duffer

[NRU74]

Old Duffer - Sorry - I wasn't criticising in any way !

[ShyTorque]

I rather doubt that.
"Wings" are awarded for the successful completion of the designated military flying course. Once awarded they cannot be removed, and certainly not for failure to qualify as "combat ready" (which, after all, would be hard for a creamie or transport pilot). One assumes you meant "operational", but even so - have wings keep wings.
No one took my wings away when I was chopped on (RN) AFT - which is the course before OFT. Nor could they.
And the CAA recognised them as qualification for a CPL to boot. Without them there would have been little or no credit towards a CPL at all.

Unless the regulations have changed since I left the RAF (they might have, it was almost thirty years ago), the pilot flying badge can, or could, most definitely be taken away after being awarded by the RAF.

My own "Wings" presentation (at RAF Shawbury, rotary wing AFTS, late 1970s) coincided with a Royal Visit. Teeteringhead may well recall this because he was a Wessex QHI there at the time.
Because there were only two of us who were to be awarded with the flying badge (the rest were re-roles and already had theirs), members of the previous course were called back to be re-presented by the said Royal.

Official signals were passed to said officers, telling them to return to Shawbury on said date, minus their recently sewn on wings, but with a "Velcro" patch sewn on their No1 uniform, to receive a new set. Velcro was fairly new back then. The obvious question in reply was - which half of the Velcro? A certain mischievous course member (not me) decided to get in and have fun with this and initiated a series of "spoof" signals, each contradicting the previous one, causing much confusion further down the line. On the Royal day, with hours to go, a certain pilot (who I knew from BFTS) turned up with the incorrect half of the Velcro sewn on his chest. He had to be sent off rather rapidly to get this fixed, to his great annoyance. Thankfully, said presentation went ahead without a hitch and his wings didn't fall off on the day. However, maybe it was a bad omen....

Immediately after my graduation I was posted to the Puma OCU. My predecessor on that course was said pilot with the "wrong" Velcro. Unfortunately, although he passed the Puma course, he didn't make it on the Squadron. He was grounded and subsequently lost the right to wear the wings. He re-roled and did very well elsewhere in a ground branch. I met him a few times afterwards and he definitely didn't wear a flying badge.

[Bill Macgillivray]

I seem to remember (a long time ago!), that once your "Wings" were awarded they remained provisional, until you had completed six months satisfactory operational service. Open to correction!
Bill

[NutLoose]

​​​​​​​An officer, on ceasing to be employed on flying duties, and an airman on being remustered to a ground trade, unless ordered otherwise, may elect to wear any of the badges for which he has been previously qualified.


From my earlier post

[trim it out]

I seem to remember (a long time ago!), that once your "Wings" were awarded they remained provisional, until you had completed six months satisfactory operational service. Open to correction!
Bill
Not sure on the other services but this is the rule for the Army. RN slightly different as they award Wings at the end of OCU(?)
Removal of the Army Flying Badge (Wings).
Provisional Wings are awarded on completion of FT and will remain provisional until successful completion of an initial CTT. On completion of CTT personnel will be awarded AAC Pilot status, with Wings awarded permanently. Personnel who fail to complete a CTT on an AAC current platform will have their Wings removed and will not be authorised to wear them on Service uniform until CTT (as stated above) has been achieved. If at any time the holder is removed permanently from flying or flying related duty for breaches of flying discipline or for lack of technical ability, reporting officers are to make specific recommendations within the AIS in order to action premature termination.

[Johnny Head in Air]

The award of a Pilot’s flying badge is provisional until confirmed in accordance with current rules. When I was awarded my badge it was 6 months on an operational Sqn or, for creamies award of a B1.

Currently I believe it is CR (or maybe (LCR) and B1 for creamies.

The only exception I know of is where an individual is medically downgraded, following an accident say, before they can confirm the award. This is discretionary on a case by case basis.

[megan]

Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray
I seem to remember (a long time ago!), that once your "Wings" were awarded they remained provisional, until you had completed six months satisfactory operational service. Open to correction!
BillIn my time in the RAN wings were confirmed upon the completion of an OFS, I never did an OFS and hence completed my SL time with provisional wings, that's despite having combat time and receiving a decoration courtesy of Her Majesty and two courtesy of the US. The only OFS's on offer were via Wessex, Tracker or A-4. Things fall through cracks.

[Old-Duffer]

An officer with whom I served, was one of a group of pilots who, having completed their training, were told they would not continue as aircrew and were deprived their flying badge. Some years later, the officer was on the staff of someone quite high and influential and he took up the case for those deprived through no fault of their own but were 'victims' of the system. A dispensation was obtained because of the particular circumstances and these officers were allowed to wear the badge, although they did not return to flying duties.

In another case, a Rhodesian who joined the RAF after the country became Zimbabwe, was permitted to wear the RAF badge because during his Rhodesian service he had been graded by RAF 'trappers' who visited his squadron (I think) in Aden.

Old Duffer

[chevvron]

An officer with whom I served, was one of a group of pilots who, having completed their training, were told they would not continue as aircrew and were deprived their flying badge. Some years later, the officer was on the staff of someone quite high and influential and he took up the case for those deprived through no fault of their own but were 'victims' of the system. A dispensation was obtained because of the particular circumstances and these officers were allowed to wear the badge, although they did not return to flying duties.


I heard of cases where training was terminated prior to the award of 'wings' as the war was ending hence the pilots were not needed.
I believe they were subsequently awarded a slightly different pattern of wings; may have been something to do with the Aircrew Association'?
I saw several of these wings holders in the Air Cadet Gliding movement and no, they weren't 'Glider Pilots' wings (of which I am enititled to wear the basic 'G1' badge without a crown) which were derived from the 'Glider Pilots Regiment' wings.
ADDENDUM
Looking at my logbooks, on 17 Sep 1993 I flew 3 members of the Aircrew Association in a Cyclone AX3 at Halton; they told me about their flying training and how/why it had been curtailed but were in civvies so no badge visible.

[MPN11]

In 1965 at Manby we had an SAC (Trade Assistant General) in the Guardroom with wings and a cluster of war medals. Apparently he left the RAF after the war, didn't adapt to civvy life and rejoined as an airman. Occasionally encountered him when doing Orderly Officer duties.

[langleybaston]

In 1965 at Manby we had an SAC (Trade Assistant General) in the Guardroom with wings and a cluster of war medals. Apparently he left the RAF after the war, didn't adapt to civvy life and rejoined as an airman. Occasionally encountered him when doing Orderly Officer duties.

In 1956 [about] there was an airman at RAF Uxbridge [my memory is vague but not useless] who was said to be a wartime VC. I think I was too ignorant to examine rank, flying badge [if any] and medal ribbons, so cannot swear to it, but he did indeed have a great deal of salad spread across his chest and was always pointed out to the newbies. If he had been army he would certainly have been given rank as a corporal. Nice story but I could not stand in the witness box after 67 years.
RAF Uxbridge was home [again memory strains] to the Regiment and the Central Band, also a Main Met. Office. A bit short of aircraft!

As an aside I missed National Service, to my honest regret .......... Met assistants were automatically traded as Met assistants, but my medical history rendered me a bad bet. I was genuinely p$ssed off, being RAF-mad.

No doubt this post will deleted, as most of mine are these days. Be quick or you will miss these enthralling anecdotes.

[BEagle]

In 1968 when I was a Flt Cdt at RAFC, Cranwell North aerodrome was used for Chipmunk flying. It had a small ATC cabin which was manned by a couple of rather elderly gents - one of whom sported the Path Finder Force badge as well as his flying badge and medals. He was also kindly spoken towards cadets, unlike many at the College!

[teeteringhead]

One of the strangest I recall was a pilot who left, studied appropriately and was then ordained in the C of E. A few years after that he rejoined as a Padre - and of course wore his wings! Looked very odd.......

[Union Jack]

One of the strangest I recall was a pilot who left, studied appropriately and was then ordained in the C of E. A few years after that he rejoined as a Padre - and of course wore his wings! Looked very odd.......
That's why chaplains are called Sky Pilots (https://alphahistory.com/vietnamwar/sky-pilot-eric-burdon-animals-1968/)! :ok:

Jack

[superplum]

That's why chaplains are called Sky Pilots (https://alphahistory.com/vietnamwar/sky-pilot-eric-burdon-animals-1968/)! :ok:

Jack

Any linkage there for some pilots believing they are Gods?

[langleybaston]

Any linkage there for some pilots believing they are Gods?

All the pilots I have known, neighboured, socialised with and briefed were modest, self-deprecatory, unassuming and charming.

The only lies I tell are on Wednesday afternoons.

[trim it out]

None of this changes the fact that my course and all others at that time (early '80s) "having passed to the required standard" were awarded wings on completion of the Gazelle course on 705NAS. At a Wings ceremony, presented by some Admiral or other in front of our families. That's nowhere near OCU. At the time we had about 160hrs total time, Bulldog and Gazelle.
Clearly the RAF and others (maybe even the RN) do it differently now, but that was the case back then. Having passed the course and been awarded the badge how can it be taken from you? If a submariner chose to restream as a pilot or vv would the old badge be forefiet? Surely that's as unthinkable as the Captain of the Naval Air Station who no longer flies or the Cdr posted to MoD losing his wings? It's nothing to do with currency!
The point of the Army AGAI is that your wings are provisional ("velcro" as they are pinned on at wings grad with velcro) until you qualify on a front line type. There are very recent cases where people have passed the Army Pilot Course but not completed a CTT and have therefore returned to their parent unit minus wings.

[Davef68]

One of the strangest I recall was a pilot who left, studied appropriately and was then ordained in the C of E. A few years after that he rejoined as a Padre - and of course wore his wings! Looked very odd.......

I heard once of a former USN pilot who joined in the National Guard as an enlisted man and served in Iraq, complete with gold wings

[SLXOwft]

One of the strangest I recall was a pilot who left, studied appropriately and was then ordained in the C of E. A few years after that he rejoined as a Padre - and of course wore his wings! Looked very odd.......

Further thread drift: there have been a number of booties who made the transition to 'bish', non-angel wings may look strange but a commando dagger is another level.:)

TBH its along time since I knew one and can't remember if he had it on his uniform

[trim it out]

Further thread drift: there have been a number of booties who made the transition to 'bish', non-angel wings may look strange but a commando dagger is another level.:)

TBH its along time since I knew one and can't remember if he had it on his uniform



I was reminded about the Commando Chaplains documentary a few years ago, and found this.

[Scottish_Airman]

I remember meeting an RAF Provost Officer in the early 2000’s who wore RAF Pilots wings. He said that he had been axed from the Chinook OCU but had qualified and been presented with his wings at the end of his rotary training, so still wore them.

I’ve seen photos of various RAF Police NCO’s wearing RAF Pilots Wings and Aircrew brevets. I can only guess towards the end of the war when the large numbers of surplus aircrew were reemployed in Ground Trades.

There is a current Serving RAF Doctor who wears RAF Pilots wings. He has never been a Pilot but I believe he may have served at RAF CAM and may have completed Flying Training as part of his medical requirements for studies of effects on Pilots etc.

[Mogwi]

“Flying Doctors” do train to wings level at least and some have gone on to do front-line tours of duty as operational pilots. Indeed, one even ended up on a squadron that was tasked with the delivery of nuclear weapons. Take that Hypocrites!

Mog

[Avionker]

“Flying Doctors” do train to wings level at least and some have gone on to do front-line tours of duty as operational pilots. Indeed, one even ended up on a squadron that was tasked with the delivery of nuclear weapons. Take that Hypocrites!

Mog

A bucket of instant sunshine just for being a hypocrite seems a little excessive…

[charliegolf]

A bucket of instant sunshine just for being a hypocrite seems a little excessive…

But would be effective in removing many symptoms!

CG

[chevvron]

“Flying Doctors” do train to wings level at least and some have gone on to do front-line tours of duty as operational pilots. Indeed, one even ended up on a squadron that was tasked with the delivery of nuclear weapons. Take that Hypocrites!

Mog
Mike Bagshaw was a fully qualified doctor and FJ QFI; used to run the programme for 'sickies' at the School of Aviation medicine using a Hunter. Many were the times he called me for 'recovery and immediate landing'.
I think he's a 'professor' nowadays flying a civil Bulldog out of Blackbushe..

[alfred_the_great]

KR for RAF, chapter 12 is your guide:

provisional award after completion of a prescribed course of flying training. This award is “fully earned” once successfully completing an operational conversion or equivalent course, and has joined a unit in the capacity for which the provisional badge has been awarded. “Joining” in this case is defined as:

RN - awarding CoC.
Army/RM - initial conversion to type training.
RAF - CR or B1 QFI

if an individual is withdrawn/leaves training before achieving these points, the holder may not continue to wear the badge.

[NutLoose]

That seems a strange way to do things, here are your wings as you have passed training as such, but if you fail the OCU we will take them back. Perhaps a wings with a P in the centre for provisional would be better.. ;)

So the RAF Plod mentioned earlier was not entitled to wear them having been chopped on the Chinook OCU?

I remember meeting an RAF Provost Officer in the early 2000’s who wore RAF Pilots wings. He said that he had been axed from the Chinook OCU but had qualified and been presented with his wings at the end of his rotary training, so still wore them.

Mind you I do remember a direct entry JT who was so bad, they sent him back to Halton to re-sit the final exams, as they couldn't believe he had passed the first time, he had, did again and we got him back.

[Herod]

I believe that AEF pilots are no longer exclusively current or retired RAF. Civilian pilots flying with the AEF have their own wings. Since the gentleman in question holds a civilian licence, perhaps he could be allowed to wear the AEF pilot's wings.

[teeteringhead]

perhaps he could be allowed to wear the AEF pilot's wings........ if he flies with the AEF.....

[Herod]

Agreed, Teeters. However, that shouldn't be a major problem. Just a way round these things. BTW 370 hours AEF flying in the Chippy, first as a Regular, then as VR(T)

[Dan Winterland]

My wings certificate is on the wall in front of me as I type and states ''Flying Officer Dan Winterland (name changed to protect the innocent) is qualified to wear the Royal Air Force Flying Badge with effect from......''. And I recall being told it was dependent on being ratified after being Comat Ready, or after 6 months if not in a combat role. And wings can most certainly be taken from you. One friend was chopped at TWU post AFTS and 'wings' award and because at the time there were no ME pilots slots, re-roled as a Nav, wearing the 'N' Brevet after combat ready. And another who was chopped on the Vulcan OCU, re-roled as a Nav, posted back to the Vulcan OCU who chopped him a second time. He had a successful career in the Admin Sec branch wearing no flying badge or brevet. And the badge worn depends on the service you serve. When I was at IOT, there was an officer cadet wearing RAF wings. Having transferred from the AAC to get a commission in the RAF (the Army refused him) he wore the RAF flying badge, not AAC. And another mate who was chopped on the RAF Nav course joined the Navy to become a pilot. After leaving, he joined the local AEF, and subsequently wore RAF uniform with RAF 'wings'.

[Ken Scott]

And the badge worn depends on the service you serve.

Not sure there’s a hard & fast rule on that? We had a pilot in the C130J who’d transferred from the AAC, he wore a specially-made badge on his flying suit, half AAC & half RAF wings, never saw him in No 1s but I’d guess he wore a normal pair on them but no idea which service.

There’s an ex-RN pilot in my AEF, he wears his Navy wings on his flying suit.

Then there’s this chap:


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x427/img_5174_76909471db5a57e97043a525604695632306ac45.jpeg

Not sure I’d take my lead from him though…

[binbrook]

Age plays tricks, but in the distant past (around 1970) was there not a V-Force nav, who had been GD/P but was downgraded medically, and continued to wear pilot's wings?

[lsh]

As Support Helicopter Crewmen, we wore an ALM brevet.

A trainee Crewman was awarded his brevet, passed the OCU, posted to an operational sqn.
He failed to stay on the sqn, last seen in the early 80's as an SAC AATC at Manston......wearing his brevet.

Certainly for us, that was when the system was changed. Subsequently had to be declared CR before brevet was permanent.

lsh

[teeteringhead]

A few years ago I had to research the wearing of Army/RN/RAF wings on other Services' uniforms for a real issue for regulars (no more details - it might imperil my incognito!) . The rule then - this was 20 years ago - was that RAF Wings could be worn on army uniforms and vice versa.(So Wills and Harry are both right!). The RN - unsurprisingly? - said RN Wings could only be worn on RN uniforms, and no other wings could be worn on them. Not sure where that puts RM?? Suppose the RN counts them as Navy......

[trim it out]

The transferring of service is an oddity that doesn't seem to rustle too many feathers. If you've passed the Army Pilot Course then why shouldn't you wear the Army wings regardless of the colour of hat you now wear.

The real noses are put of joint when RM transfer out of the Corps and have to wear RN or Army Commando flashes, insinuating they only did the 10 week crow to pro course rather than the full Lympstone experience :E

[212man]

The transferring of service is an oddity that doesn't seem to rustle too many feathers. If you've passed the Army Pilot Course then why shouldn't you wear the Army wings regardless of the colour of hat you now wear.

The real noses are put of joint when RM transfer out of the Corps and have to wear RN or Army Commando flashes, insinuating they only did the 10 week crow to pro course rather than the full Lympstone experience :E
That would definitely smart!

[charliegolf]

The real noses are put of joint when RM transfer out of the Corps and have to wear RN or Army Commando flashes, insinuating they only did the 10 week crow to pro course rather than the full Lympstone experience :E

What are they NOT allowed to wear? Serious Q.

CG

[trim it out]

What are they NOT allowed to wear? Serious Q.

CG
They can no longer wear their Royal Marine Commando flashes, and instead wear Royal Navy or Army Commando flashes depending on their new service.

[The Oberon]

They can no longer wear their Royal Marine Commando flashes, and instead wear Royal Navy or Army Commando flashes depending on their new service.
I understood they could still wear their "Dagger"

[Asturias56]

But they've transferred out - why keep the old badges?

[huge72]

lsh, I remember BH well, Sadly he struggled throughout his training, he was backflighted on AAITC at Finningly, held after ALM training at Brize before going Rotary, went through the OCU to end up on the Squadron. Failed to up grade to CR checked again by STANEVAL until finally moving on to ATC. I understand he carried on wearing his brevet although given a really hard time by his new peers.

The American forces take different view of flying badges as I personally know a Lt Col in the USAF who transferred from the Marine Corps. He proudly wears both sets of wings on his uniform, one above the other.

[Union Jack]

A few years ago I had to research the wearing of Army/RN/RAF wings on other Services' uniforms for a real issue for regulars (no more details - it might imperil my incognito!) . The rule then - this was 20 years ago - was that RAF Wings could be worn on army uniforms and vice versa.(So Wills and Harry are both right!). The RN - unsurprisingly? - said RN Wings could only be worn on RN uniforms, and no other wings could be worn on them. Not sure where that puts RM?? Suppose the RN counts them as Navy......

You suppose correctly, Sir, since the Royal Marines are a vital part of the Naval Service. :ok:

Jack

[trim it out]

I understood they could still wear their "Dagger"
But they've transferred out - why keep the old badges?
The dagger is still worn on their 1s/2s/Mess rig etc. The difference is a Royal Marine does the "full" Commando course, everyone else does the "short" All Arms course, and if you're now in the Army/RAF/RN rather than the Corps, it will be assumed you did the All Arms course. Similar to the way the Parachute Regiment believe everyone who isn't Reg is a Hat because they did All Arms Pre Para rather than Depot (an easy nibble to get the ex reg lads who transferred to be aircrew).

[alfred_the_great]

RM wear Army wings (but I’ve seen RM FJ wear Navy wings).

I know of zero ex-Bootnecks who’ve branch transferred to RN or Army who give a damn about some random on the internet judging them about “long” or “short” courses.

[trim it out]

RM wear Army wings (but I’ve seen RM FJ wear Navy wings).

I know of zero ex-Bootnecks who’ve branch transferred to RN or Army who give a damn about some random on the internet judging them about “long” or “short” courses.
FJ lot wear Navy wings because there is no Army FJ course.

It's banter Alfred, the AAC is a mongrel organisation. 40%, if not more, of the aircrew are not True Blue and taking the wizz out of previous capbadges is par for the course.

[BATCO]

They can no longer wear their Royal Marine Commando flashes, and instead wear Royal Navy or Army Commando flashes depending on their new service.

TIO has it right because the flash actually says "Royal Marines Commando". (my emphasis added). That it read as the wearer - who is a commando - is a member of the Royal Marines. So when/if no longer a member that particular badge is no longer appropriate. The person remains one who has passed the commando course and so may continue to display that fact (ie adopt the Royal Navy/Army Commando badge or the dagger.

Batco (on behalf of Batco Jr - a Royal Marines Commando)

[MG]

Years ago, I went to an RAF wedding between a couple of air traffickers. One of the guests was wearing a nav badge. Upon enquiring, he’d trained as a Navy observer, got the badge, but hadn’t finished Lynx conversion before transferring to RN air traffic, subsequently transferring to RAF air traffic. He’d been entitled to the observer’s ’moth’ whilst in the Senior Service but far from met the RAF’s requirements for wearing the ‘N’.

[Lima Juliet]

This is a brevet:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/780x1199/img_7752_1d1b1c52a68491e3ff395e7e7543cb978527d26e.png

These are badges (always have been since 1912 when HM The King signed the first one off - been the same in KRs and QRs ever since):
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1638x1343/img_7754_5783e90780005e18595cd859a813360872435efe.jpeg

[megan]

When the RAN closed its fixed wing down some of the A-4 chaps went to the RAAF Mirages and a couple to the RN Harrier, anyone know what wings they wore?

[Captain Dart]

I transferred RAN to RAAF and wore the ‘crab’ wings. It was hard adapting to their Fred Scuttle salute though.

[BEagle]

LJ, the OP wrote:

please don't hijack the thread with discussions about wings/brevets/badges etc!

All posters to note please!!

[langleybaston]

LJ, the OP wrote:


All posters to note please!!

battle is won anyway .
End of.

[NutLoose]

I am impressed, 5 pages in and not a mention of the W word.

Doh....

[langleybaston]

I am impressed, 5 pages in and not a mention of the W word.
Doh....
Shan't, so there

[The B Word]

He’s never been an RAF Pilot so is incorrectly dressed - if he was then his name would be in the London Gazette. It isn’t apart from his honorary appointment. Unless the Defence Council have granted him permission to wear them (which would have attracted media attention at the time) then it looks like it is pure bloating and Waltery.

You can find his Gazette entry here for his honorary appointment:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/60689/supplement/22837

His renewal is here:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/62465/supplement/20547

I can’t see a further renewal from September 2023 and so I suspect he is no longer dressing up in one of His Majesty’s finest uniforms.

[ShyTorque]

Interesting to see that publication in that those entitled to wear the wings badge aren’t doing so and conversely…..

[212man]

He’s never been an RAF Pilot so is incorrectly dressed - if he was then his name would be in the London Gazette. It isn’t apart from his honorary appointment. Unless the Defence Council have granted him permission to wear them (which would have attracted media attention at the time) then it looks like it is pure bloating and Waltery.


​​​​​​​Pretty much what I thought from the outset, but thought I’d get my facts correct before making false accusations!

[NutLoose]

The photo of him wearing RAF Wings has been removed from the RAFA site.

https://rafa.org.uk/about/ambassadors/#norman

Though he is still using it himself.

https://www.aerosuperbatics.com/about-us/founder/

[chevvron]

Can't make it out too well as I only have a small screen but it looks to me as though he is 'displaying' a KGVI wings badge with a QEII on his cap but I could be wrong.

[212man]

Can't make it out too well as I only have a small screen but it looks to me as though he is 'displaying' a KGVI wings badge with a QEII on his cap but I could be wrong.
I don’t think you are wrong. That’s the failing of Walts - they don’t seem to realise that people actually know what is correct and what isn’t. Like the Chief Constable with his Falklands medal, who was 16 at the time!

The photo of him wearing RAF Wings has been removed from the RAFA site.


Good to see