What did an airworthy P51 D cost in 1970?

[John Sauve Rodd]

Hello Ppruners and pilots and enthusiasts (that'd be me). In writing a novel with some aviation in it I need to know and in any currency of the day what an airworthy P51 D model would have cost to buy and own. I've been directed here by them that knows stuff because out there is the knowledge I can't get otherwise online. Many Thanks. John Sauve-Rodd

[meleagertoo]

You'll find the occasional advert for such aircraft for sale in archived Flight International which I believe is available though I cannot (will not) access it as they appear to operate a cookie policy that does not allow you to opt out. (I thought that was illegal?)
If you are not bothered about being surveilled then maybe have a look.

[Jhieminga]

A Spitfire Mk.IX was available for £4000 in 1965 if that helps.

[tdracer]

Slightly off topic, but a while back I saw a posting on the Commemorative Air Force website, listing the US Government prices in 1946 for various WWII Surplus warbirds. Dirt cheap would be a huge understatement - eye wateringly cheap would be closer - with most single engine aircraft going for less than $2,000. Even accounting for nearly 80 years of inflation, those prices were incredible (especially considering how valuable most of those aircraft are today).

I went searching for that post recently but could not find anything. Perhaps someone with better 'searching' skills might have better luck and can post it (or at least a link)?

[POBJOY]

Can not help you with a link, but Charles Masefield (with his pal Treffs) bought one around that time and made it pay by doing airshows.
At the time he was involved with 'Beagle' and I think it was stabled at Shoreham but either way there is an excellent article on the 'interweb' somewhere about the episode.
Just 'googled' CM mustang and several great article's out there

[treadigraph]

Charles Masefield's Muatang and a parachutist had a fortunately unfatal encounter on the ground at a Biggin Air Fair I believe.

As to the purchase cost? If you had to ask you probably couldn't afford it.

[DHfan]

I think I recall reading that Tim Davies paid about £5000 for airworthy Spitfire MH434 around that sort of time so I would assume a similar sort of figure.

[India Four Two]

I remember buying the October 1966 issue of Flying for the vast sum of 5 shillings (two pints of beer!) and seeing this ad:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/426x284/flying_oct_1966_spitfire_ad_90632c6fd0a049898d7c3c2ca69ca46f 72d021fe.jpg

That was approximately £44,000.

I seem to remember from another ad that it was G-ASJV, which didn't sell for that price and remained in the UK. It is still flying as MH434.

[dixi188]

I think that $54,000 was nearer £19,000 in 1966. ( I found an historic rate of £1 = $2.80 for 1966).

[Jhieminga]

Going through some Flight International scans from 1971, you could get a DC-3 for £9000, or £4,500 without engines. Another ad offers four DC-3s for $110,000. A Chipmunk goes for £2100. I guess the market for P-51s was not on the UK side of the pond and with Flight International catering to an international market, but very much from a UK base, there aren't any ads in there for warbirds. The ad at bottom right is the only one I found mentioning anything resembling a warbird (from December 1971):

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x783/screenshot_2023_11_08_at_09_58_09_ccbf128a59b457cadc40963522 3ea5f2f6656c8e.png

Silly thought: have you considered contacting a firm like Courtesy Aircraft Sales? They've been in this business for a while, they might be able to give you a ballpark figure: https://courtesyaircraft.com/

[treadigraph]

I think I recall reading that Tim Davies paid about £5000 for airworthy Spitfire MH434 around that sort of time so I would assume a similar sort of figure.
Tim Davies bought MH434 from COGEA in '63, sold her to Hamish Mahaddie for The BoB film, sold on afterwards to Adrian Swire. If I remember correctly, she was knocked down to Ray Hanna at the Duxford Brooks auction in 1983 for £250,000. I Imagine the value is now several million!

[ORAC]

1974 price close enough? Maybe take it down one or two K? The $15K price in 1970 was before an extensive overhaul.

https://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/survivors/serial/45-11381

“1970: N5471V, Jack Huismann / Mustang Corp, civi-paint: red bottom, white top, with black stripe
From Tom Huismann:

This P-51 was owned by my father, Jack. He originally purchased the airplane with two other pilots, each put up $5000. The airplane was based at the Waukesha County airport. A short time later, dad bought the other two pilots out. In 1971, after an extensive overhaul with the help of ex-Wisconsin Air Guard P-51 mechanics, my father repainted 71V in the colors of William Shomo's "The Flying Undertaker."

“Due to financial problems, my dad had to sell the Undertaker in 1974. Selling price at that time was $54,000.”…..

[treadigraph]

What was the $/£ exchange rate in 1970? Memory thinks it might once have been four dollars to the pound, though perhaps not as late as '70?

[ORAC]

£1 = $2.40 / $1 = 40p

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tables_of_historical_exchange_rates_to_the_United_States_dol lar

[Asturias56]

What was the $/£ exchange rate in 1970? Memory thinks it might once have been four dollars to the pound, though perhaps not as late as '70?

that was before Mr Wilson.................

[Planemike]

You'll find the occasional advert for such aircraft for sale in archived Flight International which I believe is available though I cannot (will not) access it as they appear to operate a cookie policy that does not allow you to opt out. (I thought that was illegal?)
If you are not bothered about being surveilled then maybe have a look.
Not too sure the online Flight Archive is still accessible, with or without surveillance....

[Dr Jekyll]

I remember buying the October 1966 issue of Flying for the vast sum of 5 shillings (two pints of beer!) and seeing this ad:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/426x284/flying_oct_1966_spitfire_ad_90632c6fd0a049898d7c3c2ca69ca46f 72d021fe.jpg

That was approximately £44,000.

I seem to remember from another ad that it was G-ASJV, which didn't sell for that price and remained in the UK. It is still flying as MH434.
An ex Battle of Britain MK IX would certainly be unique.

[Planemike]

that was before Mr Wilson.................
Think the pound Stg was worth about $ 3:15 just prior to the arrival of Mr Wilson. How far do you have to go back for it to be above $ 4:00 to the pound Stg ???

[ORAC]

You can see the point the government abandoned trying t9 hold a fixed exchange rate… but to answer your question, 1950.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/562x302/image_b8d20f2bc624f545a0d2386390c8858936b7e115.gif

[kenparry]

When I was a lad in the 1940s, it was $4=£1; thus a half crown (8 of those to the £, for you decimal youngsters) was known colloquially as "half a dollar".. Prior to Wilson's devaluation it was $2.80, and Wislon changed it to $2.40. My memory does not include what happened between $4 and $2.80


PS: crossed with ORAC above - that explains it!!

[treadigraph]

Thanks! It would seem my memory predates my birth by some considerable distance! :} It is actually from reading something recently, though i can't remember what and about which period it was describing.

Re the "ex Battle of Britain Spitfire IX", pretty certain Battle of Britain will be a reference to the film. Edit: it isn't is it, predates the film!

[meleagertoo]

I wonder which Lanc and Walrus were for sale bottom right corner of the image in post #10

[Planemike]

I wonder which Lanc and Walrus were for sale bottom right corner of the image in post #10<br />Me thinks there maybe some connection with Charles Church. Purchaser...??

[treadigraph]

<br />Me thinks there maybe some connection with Charles Church. Purchaser...??
Sabre G-ATBF, Walrus G-AIZG and Lancaster G-ASXX all Bill Fisher/Historic Aircraft Preservation Society would be my guess. Spitfire might be Seafire VP441.

[Mechta]

Sport Aviation, the magazine of the American Experimental Aircraft Association may be a better place to look for a Mustang for sale. There was already a fledgling warbird movement, and pdfs of the magazines can be seen here Sport Aviation back issues (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/news-and-publications/eaa-magazines-and-publications/eaa-sport-aviation-magazine/sport-aviation-archive/sport-aviation-browse) by EAA members. The likelihood is some of the articles from time would give a good insight into restoring and operating WW2 fighters at the time.
It would also be worth researching Cavalier Aircraft and the Cavalier Mustang, as the company was refurbishing and updating P-51s for use as executive transports and counter insurgency aircraft around that time.
Wison 'Connie' Edwards said he never paid more than $15000 for any of his Mustangs (some from Guatemala). The article doesn't say if they were airworthy or not, nor what it cost him to get them to the USA. The one in question last flew in 1983. $15000 Mustangs (https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/february/26/the-last-mustang-up-for-sale)

[Jhieminga]

1974 price close enough? Maybe take it down one or two K? The $15K price in 1970 was before an extensive overhaul.
I had a look around at that site but couldn't find a page with a relevant price, good find!
Interesting to see that $15K in 1971 is about $94K today (https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1974?amount=15000). I think most people would jump at the chance to purchase an airworthy P-51 at that price 😉

Edit: I could not remember what the other big warbird broker was apart from Courtesy, it's Platinum of course: https://www.platinumfighters.com/fighters/ I see that I need to save a bit more... $3,5M for a P-51B...

[Geriaviator]

Maybe stretching the warbird definition, but ex-RAF Tiger Moths were available for £50 each in 1946. My father remembers them tipped on their noses and packed into a hangar like sardines -- which is why most of the Tigers I encountered had dented chins.

[treadigraph]

My father remembers them tipped on their noses and packed into a hangar like sardines

Sounds like A J Whittemore and then Rollasons at Croydon - there were around 200 originally, many picketed outside and some of which blew away in a gale. I've seen pics of them wingless and nose down in the hangar and I think Rollasons were still turning them out with CofAs into the '60s; some went to the US eventually and others into Europe, the delightful I-BANG being one of them - returned to Redhill for the Tiger Club show circa 1987. The Tiger Club operated quite a few of them and still has G-ACDC (well a many times rebuilt airframe painted as G-ACDC :p)

[Sue Vêtements]

Cheap back then? Isn't there a story of someone going to the boneyard and asking for a B17? They told him to chooe one and take it round the pattern to check it out. Apparently he'd never flown (doubtful) or maybe had only flown single engine, but gave it a try anyway. Unfortunately he smacked it up on landing, so they said "Not a problem sir, We'll just put that down to wind damage. Go get another one"

I've seen the pics of B17 tails as far as they eye could see and they'll just make you want to :{



https://www.airplanes-online.com/images/boneyards/walnut-ridge-airfield-boneyard-aerial-november-1945.jpg

It's heartbreaking

[Planemike]

Wow..........they will make a few saucepans.....!!!

[Discorde]

That's uncanny, Ken! Here's my post from November last year:

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/650063-inflation-how-does-work-long-term.html#post11338956

[POBJOY]

An ex Battle of Britain MK IX would certainly be unique.

They will be talking about the film !!!

[moss_cohen]

According to Wikipedia, it cost around $51,000 in 1941. Using the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator, that would end up around $136,000 in 1970. Granted, that doesn't take into account what market demands would be for an antique WWII era plane in 1970, but that does seem to be a decent dollars for dollars comparison.

[DHfan]

As the advert was 3 years before the film was released, I think not.

[pax britanica]

re the 'stored ' B17s . Not heartbreaking at all . One can look at them and say with pride that they won the war for us or alternatively better in a scrap yard than dropping bombs.

Like the B52s etc today a monument to Americas amazing capacity to mass produce even complex things .at quite extra ordinary rates , Liberty ships almost daily , B17s /24s thousands and thousands
DC3s , largest number ever made for a commercial aircraft? Sherman tanks, inferior to the panzers but not when its five versus one. Looking back with hindsight the factories of America (inc dockyards ) pretty much won WW2

[Commander Taco]

I remember seeing an advert back in 1970 for a P-51D for sale at Toronto Island Airport. The aircraft needed an overhaul of both engine banks but was otherwise airworthy. Asking price was CAD$11,000.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

that was before Mr Wilson.................
"This will not affect the Pound in your pocket...." (or words similar to that!) 🤭🤣

[Dr Jekyll]

re the 'stored ' B17s . Not heartbreaking at all . One can look at them and say with pride that they won the war for us or alternatively better in a scrap yard than dropping bombs.

Like the B52s etc today a monument to Americas amazing capacity to mass produce even complex things .at quite extra ordinary rates , Liberty ships almost daily , B17s /24s thousands and thousands
DC3s , largest number ever made for a commercial aircraft? Sherman tanks, inferior to the panzers but not when its five versus one. Looking back with hindsight the factories of America (inc dockyards ) pretty much won WW2
What is a bit heartbreaking is how valuable even one of them would be now, if only as a source of spares. If only people had realised how scarce they were becoming just a few years earlier than they did.

[chevvron]

P-51Ds were still in use with the air force of the Dominican Republic into the '60s. Don't know how they were disposed of when they were retired.

[treadigraph]

P-51Ds were still in use with the air force of the Dominican Republic into the '60s. Don't know how they were disposed of when they were retired.

Dominican Mustangs were acquired by several American organisations/individuals between about 1970 and 1985, notably Brian O'Farrell in Miami,.Gordon Plaskett in California and Cavalier Aircraft in Florida.

The Nicaraguan P-51s and P-47s were acquired by Will Martin of Illinois in the 1960s; his book "So I Bought Myself an Airforce" is a terrific read, several aircraft didn't survive the various ferry flights, though I think all the pilots did. Must read it again.

[ahwalk01]

"This will not affect the Pound in your pocket...." (or words similar to that!) 🤭🤣

Nothing like what Brexit did to it.

[Sailvi767]

An ex Battle of Britain MK IX would certainly be unique.

Please keep quiet about this! It was a very secret program to send aircraft back in time. How do you think the Battle of Britain was actually won?

[Sailvi767]

re the 'stored ' B17s . Not heartbreaking at all . One can look at them and say with pride that they won the war for us or alternatively better in a scrap yard than dropping bombs.

Like the B52s etc today a monument to Americas amazing capacity to mass produce even complex things .at quite extra ordinary rates , Liberty ships almost daily , B17s /24s thousands and thousands
DC3s , largest number ever made for a commercial aircraft? Sherman tanks, inferior to the panzers but not when its five versus one. Looking back with hindsight the factories of America (inc dockyards ) pretty much won WW2

In 1944 the US was producing 263 aircraft a day. In 1939 they built 8 per day! In 1942 they did not have enough airframes and borrowed Spitfires from Britain for North Africa and rebuilt wrecks in Australia to fight the Japanese.

[longer ron]

The Nicaraguan P-51s and P-47s were acquired by Will Martin of Illinois in the 1960s; his book "So I Bought Myself an Airforce" is a terrific read, several aircraft didn't survive the various ferry flights, though I think all the pilots did. Must read it again.

As you say - a terrific read with some lovely colour plates included - including a couple of beach pics with force landed P51 and P47 a/c.Out of the 26 ? a/c he purchased (+ 2 from Costa Rica) - 5x P51's + 2x P47's were force landed/crashed due to mechanical failures.
Will Martin originally was not going to fly any of the warbirds himself but due to difficulties finding reliable pilots for the ferry trips he eventually taught himself to fly them and flew many back personally.I think it took him 2 years to complete the contract for various reasons,definitely an unusual book :).

[treadigraph]

I've plucked my copy from the bookshelf for my bedtime reading when current tome is finished. Incidentally, it's "So I Bought an Airforce", my memory added in an errant "myself"!

Two of them made their way to the UK, one as G-SUSY with Charles Church, now in Germany, and the well known N1051S/Sunny VIII with Spencer Flack, destroyed in an airshow crash after it returned to the US. Some of them have been lost subsequently and at least two were sold on by third parties, returning South of the Border to the Bolivian AF in 1966!

[DogTailRed2]

Are there two questions being answered here?
1) How much did it cost the US Government to purchase a P51?
2) How much has it cost since?
I would be interested in the answer to 1 and a comparison with say an F35 (the modern day equivalent) . The answer to 2 I guess is "How much you are willing to pay?".
Didn't the CAF swap jet aircraft for P51's in the 80's? So you could say the exchange rate is one Jet aircraft. My dad said there was a time when you could buy a surplus Spitfire just for the tailwheel.
The reason I'm interested to the comparison with the F35 is if we (the UK etc) could actually afford to have a war on the scale of WW2 today? But that is a digression.

[sycamore]

The `Latin American Aviation Historical Society` website has a lot about ferrying Mustangs and Jugs to S America...

[megan]

It cost the British $14,746,964.35 for the initial 320 aircraft which includes 20% for spares, crating spares $96,231.35, crating $675 per aircraft. ie $46,084.26 per aircraft. Did not include radio or armament

Without the spares and crating charges an aircraft cost $37,590.45

[longer ron]

I've plucked my copy from the bookshelf for my bedtime reading when current tome is finished. Incidentally, it's "So I Bought an Airforce", my memory added in an errant "myself"!


Moi Aussi Treadi - dusted my copy off from the bookshelf where it has sat for about 9 years :)
It is a very interesting read - am enjoying it more at the 2nd reading :) - just over half way through as of yesterday afternoon !