Runway incursion at Sunshine Coast

[PiperCameron]

Here's an interesting one just posted: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2023-023 (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2023/report/ao-2023-023)

How is it possible to do a major upgrade to the runway and taxiway at a major regional airport and for Airservices to screw up the paperwork so royally?

[Capn Bloggs]

Entirely understandable. ATC should not have confused the issue by saying "hold short runway 31" when the student was already doing so.

As for the 737, they would be crossing the threshold at a published eye height of 69ft on a vis app (main wheels around 45ft), so they wouldn't have hit the lighty even if they had continued the approach.

How is it possible to do a major upgrade to the runway and taxiway at a major regional airport and for Airservices to screw up the paperwork so royally?
I see no indication that that chart was the current ASA chart, only that it was the chart used by the flying school (obviously woefully out of date; Google Earth indicates the works were finished in Oct 2021):
The information relating to the runways and taxiways contained a graphic of the runway and taxiways at Sunshine Coast Airport (Figure 8) prior to the runway extension and taxiway Foxtrot completion in 2021. The map showed only 2 runway holding points: A1 and A2.

Figure 8: Sunshine Coast Airport map used in the operator airport briefing for students.

If you're referring to the CASA chart then yes, I agree it's inaccurate, but I doubt it would have misled the student because the shows 31 starting at F, so the stud wouldn't have moved from F when they were told to hold short of 31. AS it was, it appears he did know where 31 was because they moved toward it when told to hold short.

Sounds/reads like non-compliance with current rules/practices; was there any need to do most of that extra stuff?

[Ascend Charlie]

To further improve the visual characteristics of the runway holding position markings at Foxtrot, the airport has installed mandatory instruction markings pursuant to Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) Manual of Standards (MOS) Part 139 section 8.40 - Mandatory Instruction Markings (https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020C00797/Html/Text#_Toc49957629).

So it wasn't even marked properly?

And why, oh why, did they not extend Twy E all the way to the threshold 13 to avoid the time wasted at the holding point halfway down the runway, waiting for others to backtrack, turn around, and launch?

[Capn Bloggs]

did they not extend Twy E all the way to the threshold 13
Good question, Airports aren't designed by pilots, unfortunately. Full-length parallel taxiways are one of the greatest safety enhancements a busy airport could have IMO, Broome, Newman, Ballina (based on reading) being cases in point.

[PiperCameron]

I see no indication that that chart was the current ASA chart, only that it was the chart used by the flying school (obviously woefully out of date; Google Earth indicates the works were finished in Oct 2021):

I was thinking of the Manoeuvring Map: It appears as if CASA/ASA don't know where the holding point is either!! :ugh:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/656x642/screenshot_2023_11_02_141206_da6aaa8adf277767e10774d398d0095 ba1cddb0e.jpg

The Report goes on to say: "The pilot was familiar with the runway configurations at Sunshine Coast Airport having flown to the airport previously. However, having never used taxiway Foxtrot..." ...so it sounds to me like you really need to do your research before flying in to some of these places - but then I don't really understand why the 737 was asked to go around either, unless that was linked to some doubt in the mind of the Tower Controller about the student's grasp of their situation at that point??

[nomorecatering]

Why on earth don't we have the same markings as the USA and increasingly europe?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/370x260/1952b_airport_runway_road_marking_paint_white_red_yellow_man ufacturer_traffic_a79d68c522f9df0b6b5fb7584600510841910280.j pg

[Capn Bloggs]

The pilot was familiar with the runway configurations at Sunshine Coast Airport having flown to the airport previously. However, having never used taxiway Foxtrot...

so it sounds to me like you really need to do your research before flying in to some of these places
The fact that they hadn't used F before is irrelevant. They obviously knew where the F holding point was because they taxied there, and held there, as instructed. The problem was when ATC threw a spanner in the works with "remain clear of 31". For example, having held at a HP, do we get a clearance/instruction later cross it when going someplace else such as lining up or crossing a runway? No. We just do what we're told. In this case, Bloggs, who was already stopped holding at the F HP, was told to remain clear of 31. "OK, I'll do that", they think. "Since I'm departing off 31, I'll move forward towards 31". 132 hours, still a student, combined with an ambiguous call from ATC = result.

I doubt Bloggs would have thought of the 31 scenario he was put in: holding at an HP and then being told to "hold short". I certainly wouldn't have. But hopefully, I would have said "err, der, I already am holding short, please explain what you meant". :)​​​​​​​

​​​​​​​Why on earth don't we have the same markings as the USA and increasingly europe?
ICAO markings are used here, are they not? Curiously, those red boxes are called "Mandatory instruction markings" but the MOS says "may" and "should" regarding their use.

There is no need for the CASA chart/diagram to even exist IMO. It shows nothing extra compared to the ERSA diagram and is simply another pathway to incorrect information when not maintained/updated.

[Kundry]

Why does FTA so eagerly use the term QFI??

[Ascend Charlie]

Qualified Flying Instructor, a military term. Unlike the Yank usage of CFI, normally reserved for the lofty position of Chief Flying Instructor, but over there it is given to the lowly creatures known as certified flying instructors.

[Clare Prop]

QFI used to be the higher of two grades of instructor under the old UK CAA system
You started off as an AFI, Assistant Flying Instructor, roughly equivalent to a Grade 3, then when you had the hours and the CFI said you were ready you could upgrade to QFI Qualified Flying Instructor.

[Clare Prop]

The pilot held a student pilot licence. They commenced training on 12 September 2022 at Brisbane West Wellcamp Airport. At the time of the occurrence, they had a total flying experience of 132.5 hours

There is no such thing as a Student Pilot Licence, hasn't been since Part 61 came in.

132.5 hours and still not licenced? Is this what the future holds?

[Lead Balloon]

Good points, Clare! Bloggs may have been a student pilot, but there is no such thing as a student pilot licence any more. And 132.5 hours in the logbook and still a student?

[Clare Prop]

A full time course but averaging just under four hours a week of flying.
I wonder how much debt this poor stude was in :(

[BEVLY9]

132.5 hours and still not licenced? Is this what the future holds?

An integrated course does not require the candidate to have an RPL/PPL prior to sitting for the CPL test.

[Gne]

Good question, Airports aren't designed by pilots, unfortunately. Full-length parallel taxiways are one of the greatest safety enhancements a busy airport could have IMO, Broome, Newman, Ballina (based on reading) being cases in point.
Over the years since you and I were often on the same UHF frequency Bloggsy, I've grown tired of trying to convince airport designers worldwide to listen to operational folk before the concrete pours begin and batching plants are erected.
Sunny Coast is a classic example - I still have the emails and briefing docs on file.
The other issue is that, when the bleeding obvious becomes an operational and safety necessity, there is operational disruption while the "fix" is effected. Putting it there in the first place would have been cheaper and completed while there were not operations to disrupt. .

All controllers and most pilots can point to a taxiway that is useless and a place where there should be a taxiway at airports they frequent.

Gne.

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

Training under a Part 142 only requires 150 hours total time and the first time you do a test is for the CPL if you wish. So 132.5 hours is not out of the ordinary with no licence. Some schools do like to get a student to do a PPL to get them used to the testing environment and also so they can sign the daily, carry pax etc.

[Lead Balloon]

But wouldn't the candidate want a licence to be able to go flying for fun in their own time, along the way? Or are they 'not allowed to'?

[PiperCameron]

But wouldn't the candidate want a licence to be able to go flying for fun in their own time, along the way? Or are they 'not allowed to'?

LB, under the regimes spoken of above the candidate is told that, sure, they could get a license along the way if they wish to.. but it will cost them $$$ for the exam and flight test that would be "better spent" on achieving their goals. :rolleyes:

Most flights schools I know of encourage their students to get their hours up doing circuits, but given FTA don't appear to be based anywhere close to Sunny Coast, I wonder if these guys are encouraged to get their hours up flying interstate!! If so, poor buggers..that's certainly one way to get hours on the flight switch but not much use for proficiency

[BEVLY9]

but given FTA don't appear to be based anywhere close to Sunny Coast, I wonder if these guys are encouraged to get their hours up flying interstate!! If so, poor buggers..that's certainly one way to get hours on the flight switch but not much use for proficiency

They have a base at Wellcamp which is about a 45-60 minute flight away from Sunny Coast

[Clare Prop]

All that aside, there is still no such thing as a Student Pilot Licence.
Nor is there any such thing as a QFI.
So what other inaccuracies are there in the report?
From my experience of the ATSB they make things up as they go along.

[Lead Balloon]

Clare: There shouldn't be much to make up here. Capn Bloggs nailed the nonsense.

For all the thousands of pages of regulations and AIP material and guidance material, this is where we are in 2023:The ERSA and the DAP diagrams for the Sunshine Coast Airport did not include holding point locations. While the ERSA was not required to show the locations of holding points, inclusion of this information reduces the potential for confusion or ambiguity around their position. Also, the marking used on the runway diagram to depict the take-off distance available was not accurate. Additionally, the CASA aerodrome manoeuvring map for Sunshine Coast Airport did not give an accurate representation of the holding points or the runway and, if compared to the ERSA, would increase confusion for pilots.And the pilot was confused by a poorly worded and unnecessary ATC instruction.

2023.

[Clare Prop]

Most flights schools I know of encourage their students to get their hours up doing circuits, but given FTA don't appear to be based anywhere close to Sunny Coast, I wonder if these guys are encouraged to get their hours up flying interstate!! If so, poor buggers..that's certainly one way to get hours on the flight switch but not much use for proficiency

I'd have thought that flying interstate would be much more valuable in gaining proficiency in command skills than bashing circuits for hours on end?

[2b2]

Toowoomba is not that far!

[Capt Fathom]

Toowoomba is not that far!

What’s Toowoomba got to do with it?

[Checkboard]

There is no such thing as a Student Pilot Licence
Yes there is. I've got one in front of me. Issued 4/2/87. :D

[Clare Prop]

Indeed but this stude started training 8 years after they were abolished!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

ICAO markings are used here, are they not? Curiously, those red boxes are called "Mandatory instruction markings" but the MOS says "may" and "should" regarding their use.
Because the "Mandatory" is not pertaining to their installation. It refers to the information they portray. They "may" (there's no "should" that I can see) be used as an adjunct to MAGS that display Mandatory Instructions (as opposed to ones that are Information Only ones). The MAGS have rules as to where and why they are installed. (Section 8.79 (3) & (4))

[Mr Mossberg]

132.5 hours and still not licenced? Is this what the future holds?

Even I worked out that this student is on an integrated course.

But wouldn't the candidate want a licence to be able to go flying for fun in their own time, along the way? Or are they 'not allowed to'?

Nup, you want to get the course finished ASAP, so you can move straight on to MEIR and ATPL's. If you want to muck around and enjoy the scenery, do a non-integrated course.

​​​​​​​Most flights schools I know of encourage their students to get their hours up doing circuits

Most schools? How many? The one school you have trained through? You need to get out more, talk to a few more schools OR publish your research.

[Mr Mossberg]

I've grown tired of trying to convince airport designers worldwide to listen to operational folk before the concrete pours begin and batching plants are erected.

You can talk to them:

Until you're blue in the face
Until the cows come home
Until hell freezes over
Until the Eels win another premiership (the sun will burn out before that happens, about 5 billion years)
Until the sun burns out

But no runway builder in Australia will build a full length taxyway. An accident with similar deaths to Teneriffe would not convince them or CASA or ATSB.

[Clare Prop]

.



Most schools? How many? The one school you have trained through? You need to get out more, talk to a few more schools OR publish your research.

An example of n=1

[2b2]

What’s Toowoomba got to do with it?

FTA - Qantas - Based at Wellcamp. That's where the DA40 was from.
Standard Navex

[Lead Balloon]

For the slow learners, the first sentence of the ATSB Exec Summary explains that the flight was "from Sunshine Coast Airport, Queensland to Brisbane West Wellcamp Airport, Queensland."

"Brisbane West Wellcamp Airport" is located at a place called "Toowoomba".

An air operator called "Qantas" has appointed an organisation called "Flight Training Adelaide" (FTA) as the training provider for Qantas's Toowoomba site.

Don't obsess on the "A" in "FTA". FTA isn't sending students on NAVEXs from Parafield to Sunshine Coast and back each day.

[donpizmeov]

Was inside of 4nm on the RNAV 13 when ATC had a QF 737 at the holding point enter to line up runway 13. Passing 1000 feet asked the FO to enquire ATC about their intentions, and they said to continue number 1. I asked if the 737 still slowly taxing to the threshold might be a factor, and ATC asked very nicely for us to go round.
A few weeks later, same runway, same position for us, ATC cleared a single engine trainer to join base in front of us. TCAS showed him pretty close, so I called our distance, to which ATC sent the trainer back to downwind heading.
The tarmac area is a disgrace of a design. Any one aircraft pushing onto taxyway B closes the whole area. During CTAF QF and those 717s push without a CTAF call, blocking everyone else for considerable time.

Horrible design and at times lazy ATC.

[Clinton McKenzie]

ASD-B IN will cure all that, and baldness. ;)

[Mr Mossberg]

It's a weird arse airport, that's for sure. It really wants to be a big airport but doesn't quite seem to get there. There's no reason it couldn't be a Gold Coast but there'll be problems if the movements increase, on all fronts. The terminal is crappy, the apron is **** and the airspace design is crap as well.

The ATC there is usually pretty good, apart from don's issues of course.

[PiperCameron]

It's a weird arse airport, that's for sure. It really wants to be a big airport but doesn't quite seem to get there. There's no reason it couldn't be a Gold Coast but there'll be problems if the movements increase, on all fronts. The terminal is crappy, the apron is **** and the airspace design is crap as well.

Agree on all counts. It seems to me the top-brass stationed there are completely unable to both (a) obtain good advice and (b) make good decisions, probably preferring to spend their time at the beach instead. It could be soo much better.. but. Coolangatta it ain't.

[Mr Mossberg]

It's a typical Australian airport. They'll come, then we'll build it. At the lowest possible cost and tart the little piggy up to look like a real airport. And while we build it we'll stuff around as many people as humanly possible.

[Pastor of Muppets]

How difficult can we make this game for ourselves?
Royal commission thanks…..

[aroa]

Why waste money on a Royal Commission. Any recommendations would be noted, filed and ignored. Airfields are designed by road “expert” engineers without knowledge of aircraft usage.
At YMBA after completion and the final party millions had to be spent uprooting culverts and reshaping the slopes off the taxiway. And they couldn’t even make that straight or minimise the turn angles. At the western end the holding point is in the wrong place and allows only a look for traffic one way.
It used to be so flat you could use anywhere.. not any more. A Suez canal with launching bund to the south and drains and ditches everywhere else.