Chopper reported missing, NSW

[AnotherFSO]

The ABC is reporting a search is underway for a missing helicopter and pilot.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-27/helicopter-search-man-dog-port-stephens-nsw/103029672

[MagnumPI]

Wonder if it was this helicopter - timing lines up with the article: https://www.flightradar24.com/KFT/32956030

[MagnumPI]

The article reports that some debris (unconfirmed if from accident aircraft?) was found by a fisherman, and that the search didn't start until 10pm - so 12 hours later! Doesn't sound good... :uhoh:

Given that it seems they were tracking the Williamtown coastal northbound VFR route, surely a controller would have had them under surveillance?

[le Pingouin]

Initiating SAR action on an unknown VFR conducting unknown activities dropping off radar without any other information available? They'd be initiated potentially 100s of times per day across Australia.

[MagnumPI]

Thanks le Ping, wasn't throwing shade, was just curious - I have no idea how it works as a controller.

Does it make a difference if, for instance, you had requested clearance from Williamtown Clearance Delivery and were reporting to them all the way to Anna Bay? Wouldn't it have looked odd to the controller that you disappear off surveillance over water shortly thereafter?

[Squawk7700]

This sounds like history repeating itself.

[le Pingouin]

Probably not unless there is some other information indicating a crash. Transponders fail or get inadvertently switched off, aircraft fly in and out of radar coverage, suffer electrical issues, etc far more often than they crash. I'm not familiar with Willimatown but would flight following be an option if an aircraft is wanting a SAR service?

[Squawk7700]

Wonder if it was this helicopter - timing lines up with the article: https://www.flightradar24.com/KFT/32956030

Interesting, some of that flight was at 200ft. Take that with a grain of salt though at it will no doubt be based on 1013.

Very close to where the Huey went in at Anna Bay in 2019, but in the dark.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Initiating SAR action on an unknown VFR conducting unknown activities dropping off radar
But Dick said we'd all be safe if........

[belly tank]

Interesting, some of that flight was at 200ft. Take that with a grain of salt though at it will no doubt be based on 1013.

Very close to where the Huey went in at Anna Bay in 2019, but in the dark.


The WX was awful here yesterday, cloud around 3-400' up the coast and a stiff southerly at 30kts. Also the pilot had a dog on board the aircraft.

Search has resulted in debris found so far washed up on shore.

[Squawk7700]

Assuming it was the flight listed above, in the final stages it has climbed 200ft in 20 seconds and dropped 23 knots. This is like the Cirrus at Gundaroo all over again :-(

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1397x423/kmt1_dd2f6516b318b319de83daf0fc6d4387a8241dcc.jpg

[Lead Balloon]

By my maths, 200' climb in 20 seconds = 600 fpm climb. Doesn't strike me as a World Record.

Reduction in GS of 23 knots in 20 seconds by a helicopter? Won't be causing any gasps in any action movie.

Still, FCST and reported WDSPRED SHTTY doesn't augur well.

[Dick Smith]

Traffic. Yes I was chairman of CAA when mandatory 30 minute full position reporting for VFR was removed

Saved the industry over a billion since then.

It will be interesting to see if a return to full position reporting could have prevented this fatality. If so it will be a first in 30 years.

[Squawk7700]

Reduction in GS of 23 knots in 20 seconds by a helicopter? Won't be causing any gasps in any action movie.

Except that moments later it presumably fell from the sky very quickly.


As a wise pilot said to me tonight, the forecast was for VFR into IMC.

[Capt Fathom]

Maybe not so wise…. perhaps VMC into IMC.

[Squawk7700]

Maybe not so wise…. perhaps VMC into IMC.

It's a play on words, but I get your point.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

full position reporting
That wasn't what I was referring to.

Besides which, it was only mandatory for VFR in some circumstances, and this wasn't one of them anyway

[Eurofox2133]

Dick, the decision to remove Full SAR position reporting nearly cost me my life after a serious crash in an unpopulated area during a flight on SARTIME. Had it not been for some fortuitous intervention by an observer I would have bled to death before the SARTIME expired.

So despite the savings, from a personal perspective I cannot thank you for removing the option of FULL SAR.

[Dick Smith]

What then are you referring to with your statement. . " but Dick said we will all be safe -if"

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

That a controller had them under surveillance ie using radar coverage to low level. As Le Ping said, as if ATC have nothing else to do but watch unknown returns wander around and disappear and reappear all day.

[Dick Smith]

Euro. Even when they had full reporting for VFR they normally did not start a search until the reported fuel had been exhausted.

This was because reports were sometimes missed because of human factors and faulty radios.

And you could still operate full position after the changes- simply file an IFR plan!

[Pseudonymn]

ABC now reporting wreckage found off Yacaaba but no bodies located.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-28/missing-helicopter-wreckage-found-in-nsw-hunter-region/103035584

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

...they normally did not start a search until the reported fuel had been exhausted.
But they at least had an idea where to start that search, plus the SAR actions had been steadily ramping up ever since the missed report. People were trying to find out where you might be, even if a formal search hadn't been initiated yet.

[Dick Smith]

As I have said. -let's wait and see if this fatality could have been avoided if we still had mandatory full position reporting for VFR.

[Cloudee]

Dick, the decision to remove Full SAR position reporting nearly cost me my life after a serious crash in an unpopulated area during a flight on SARTIME. Had it not been for some fortuitous intervention by an observer I would have bled to death before the SARTIME expired.

So despite the savings, from a personal perspective I cannot thank you for removing the option of FULL SAR.
Eurofox, there’s nothing stopping you using VFR flight following, I’ve never been refused it. These days a family member can follow you’re flight on OzRunways or similar also. I for one don’t miss the previous rigmarole at all.

[KRviator]

Eurofox, there’s nothing stopping you using VFR flight following, I’ve never been refused it.Spot on with FF. I religiously use it if I'm going somewhere and can't recall being refused on initial contact, though I have had it terminated due surveillance coverage multiple times, though even in most of these cases, the controller has usually said something like "You can expect to be back in coverage at 65 miles to run <waypoint>".

I'll defer to Le Pengion as to whether most controllers actually prefer you to be under FF if you're up high and their workload permits it, but I'd like to think they would, as they know straight away they can talk to you if there's an upcoming conflict or question rather than the oft-heard "Aircraft 50 miles east of Upper Bumphuck at 8,500, do you read?" with silence being the only reply...

[Mr Mossberg]

Full VFR position reporting is ridiculous in the extreme, although it does meet the Australian Nanny State mentality.

There are about 3000 other things you can do that would meet the same level of safety at a fraction of the cost, but that would mean taking some responsibility and that definitely goes against the present Australian MO.

[BEACH KING]

Full VFR position reporting is ridiculous in the extreme, although it does meet the Australian Nanny State mentality.

There are about 3000 other things you can do that would meet the same level of safety at a fraction of the cost, but that would mean taking some responsibility and that definitely goes against the present Australian MO.
Exactly right.
Technology has changed a great deal since the flight service days. Naips/Oz runways etc apps, Spot tracker, mobile phone coverage, portable elt etc.
If you practice a professional approach to your aviation activities and have people who care about you and are intertwined in your lifestyle, they will raise an alert far faster than mandated reporting ever would.
Anyhow, I feel very sorry for the family and friends associated with this latest unfortunate incident as well as those of several lately.
Unfortunately transport of any type is dangerous.

[601]

Exactly right.
Technology has changed a great deal since the flight service days. Naips/Oz runways etc apps, Spot tracker, mobile phone coverage, portable elt etc.
You don't need technology all the time. If you are flying somewhere, there is generally someone expecting you.
A simple text message to whoever is at you destination is all it needs, even when you are travelling by vehicle.

[Cedrik]

Was the aircraft avoiding Williamtown airspace?

[MagnumPI]

Was the aircraft avoiding Williamtown airspace?

Based on the track from FR24 (https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-kft#32956030) it seems the aircraft was tracking the coastal VFR route. It runs from Nobbys to Seal Rocks as can be seen on the Newcastle VTC (https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aipchart/vtc/Newcastle_Williamtown_VTC_15JUN2023.pdf), and requires a clearance from Williamtown to enter the CTR.

It's been a while since I flew this route so can't remember if it's commonplace for Williamtown to cut you loose before the end of the route at Sugarloaf. I do remember them requiring reporting Anna Bay etc. Is this still the case?

If, as has been reported on ABC, the aircraft went down near Port Stephens - would a controller have been expecting another report from them further N?

[JamieMaree]

The aircraft has to be flown according to the condition at the time.
Full reporting or the alternatives are about where/ when they will find the wreckage and/or if the prang is survivable, can they find the accident site before the survivors perish.

[Cedrik]

Are you blokes seriously suggesting to go back to full reporting for private aircraft? RAA aviation activity too? Hang gliding? Gliding?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

No one is suggesting, just refuting the contention that it was a bad thing. Certainly technology has moved on. Thirty years ago, entirely different story. Plus SAR alerting was not its only purpose...back then.

[Squawk7700]

It was suggested to me by a local pilot that this area is extremely turbulent. Low level down the beach but nearby there are 1,000ft cliffs that cause the equivalent of mountain waves. Same turbulence exists in the area of where the Huey went in.

Once the rotors are found, a lot more will be discovered.

[Capt Fathom]

there are 1,000ft cliffs that cause the equivalent of mountain waves.

Where are these 1000ft cliffs?

[helispotter]

Where are these 1000ft cliffs?
With wreckage found near Yacaaba headland based on earlier link at #22, that still rises to 210 to 218 m depending on where you look for data. Not a 1000 ft cliff but quite lumpy all the same.

[helispotter]

It was suggested to me by a local pilot that this area is extremely turbulent.... [terrain] that cause the equivalent of mountain waves...

If so, reminds me of the helicopter accident that killed Shirley Strachan accident highlights mountain wave dangers | ATSB
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2001/release/2001_21

[Squawk7700]

Second hand story. 200+ metres is still high when you’re flying at 500ft.

If we knew the QNH you could convert the ADSB graph to show actual altitude, not what looks like scud-running.

[Capt Fathom]

The 9am QNH was 1021mb. That puts the chopper at around 900ft.

[helispotter]

Second hand story. 200+ metres is still high when you’re flying at 500ft...
I was in agreement with the observations you shared. Air flow over a 218m (715 ft) peak could surely still influence a helo flying at say 900ft noting there are further (lower) peaks in that area. Unless other factors become obvious, ATSB would presumably consider this.

[Squawk7700]

Spot on, apologies if I gave the wrong impression.