ATC glider solos

[DaveUnwin]

Evening All, I don't suppose any of you might have an idea as to how many first solos in gliders the ATC achieved in (A) 1953 and (B) in its busiest-ever year?

[bobward]

You could try asking HQ Air Cadets at Cranwell, Dave. They are supposed to be running the show, I believe.
Sorry I can't help you - I did my solo's in Feb 68, at 611 GS, Swanton Morley. 'A wild and lonely place, ye ken....'

[chevvron]

In the era '64 to '70 there were many plans hatched to 'beat' the records but what the results were I don't know. Certainly many schools in that period set themselves a target of equalling the number of launches as their school number ie '6XX'; I can remember seeing a 'plan' at my school (613 Halton) to try to do it so maybe somebody at HQAC suggested it and they all gave it a go.
I doubt that HQAC or 2 FTS as it's now called would keep records going back that far; they're notoriously bad at collecting statistics like that let alone storing the records somewhere and don't forget HQAC has moved several times since the '50s; I remember it as being at White Waltham until the early '60s, then it went to Brampton then Newton before finishing up at Cranwell and it's easy to 'lose' a filing cabinet of records in these moves.

[sycamore]

Dave,you can bet it was probably 100x what it was 60 yrs later.....

[VX275]

they're notoriously bad at collecting statistics like that let alone storing the records somewhere

​​​​​​​And that includes the paperwork to keep a fleet of aircraft airworthy.

[DaveUnwin]

Sycamore and VX you're not wrong. I was flying WT900 for Loughborough Uni freshers all last Sunday, and all the students really really enjoyed it. As we were putting WT900 away that evening I couldn't help but reflect.....
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_0244_copy_8190c61621e6851d0345fab661d40f5313ab2a7f.jpg

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

What a lovely photograph !

[sycamore]

A quick glance at the photo,and I thought` Shoot` they`re fitting RATOG to gliders now``...just that white blur under the fuselage....
I wenton an ATC gliding course at RAF Newton in Jan or Feb`59..as expected it blew,rained,occasional snow flurries,and was `effing cold`..Nobody was `soloed`,as it would be deemed`unfair` to all ,due the conditions and it was just as cold in the `accomodation`...still,it was `fun`when you are about 15,and away from home..
Then in mid `68 whilst doing ETPS,did 2 trips in `Barge WD920` at Upavon,sent solo in OlympiaVV400 for 10 mins,,then 1h20 m soaring.;couple of weeks later ,1h soaring in Sky XA876.Then relegated to `tug-pilot` in the Chipmunk,for having `hogged` the soaring bit...great `fun `again...

[chevvron]

I wenton an ATC gliding course at RAF Newton in Jan or Feb`59..as expected it blew,rained,occasional snow flurries,and was `effing cold`..Nobody was `soloed`,
My brother went to Hawkinge in December '61 for a one week course; not surprisingly he didn't solo either and neither did any of the course then the airfield closed at the end of '61 and the gliding centre moved to Swanton Morley.
As we were only 10 miles from Halton, he soloed a few months later but you have to wonder was it 'productive' to send cadets away at that time of year?
Approaching my 16th birthday, I asked my CO for a gliding course as soon as I was old enough and got one commencing just after my 16th, soloing in about 5 weekends and attending both sat and sun.

[VX275]

A quick glance at the photo,and I thought` Shoot` they`re fitting RATOG to gliders now`

Maybe not 'now' but back 'then' they did.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1739x822/image0112_8b80c0ee14e8ba4394adbaef251c286f251d9e5f.jpg
​​​​​​​

[chevvron]

What a lovely photograph !
But he's using the spoilers so he's cheating.

[longer ron]

Hi Dave cannot help with 1953 but In The Gliding Book Chap 3 (Nicholas Kaye Ltd 1965) - Alex Watson writes that in 1963 the Air Cadet Gliding movement was responsible for training 2043 Cadets to A&B standard (3 solo ccts at that time) for a total of 136,345 launches.
There was an A4 pamphlet/booklet called The Way We Were? published in the 1990's/early 2000's ? which covered Air Cadet Gliding during the wooden years,there may have been some launch/solo statistics in that but the lord only knows where my copy went :(

Any particular reason for being interested in the 1953 stats ?

cheers /regards LR

[DaveUnwin]

Thanks Longer Ron, '63 is perfect. '53 was when WT900 was built, but '63 is 60 years so a nice round number when I write my column. Over 2,000 solos eh? I wonder if the ATC did 20 this year???? Thanks for all the other comments guys - much appreciated! You know, it was a beautiful day last Sunday, and perfect for winching. With one of the lighter girls I got to 1600ft (the average was 1400) and the view was amazing. Two of the students told me it was "the most amazing thing they'd ever done" and everyone of them absolutely loved it. I think quite a few of them will be back.

[UV]

Alex Watson writes that in 1963 the Air Cadet Gliding movement was responsible for training 2043 Cadets to A&B standard (3 solo ccts at that time) for a total of 136,345 launches.
LR

That works out at 66 launches per solo which seems a little high.

I wonder if he was including Air Experience flights in the total of 136,345?

[longer ron]

That works out at 66 launches per solo which seems a little high.

I wonder if he was including Air Experience flights in the total of 136,345?

Hi UV yes almost certainly including AEG launches in that total - Alex did not elaborate on the number/breakdown of launches.
Hey even I went solo in 21 launches at 644 in the summer of '69 :)

[chevvron]

I think the switch to a single solo flight from three happened in about 1980 or thereabouts, roughly the same time that Ventures were introduced.
If you did a weeks course (sun to sat), you were bound to go solo quicker because of the continuity ('right laddie, just like you did yesterday').
I was a weekender so with 5 days at school between each session, you had to do a bit of revision plus sometimes you 'lost' a day due to bad weather (it was October) so it took me a total of 39; that last day I did 6 with my instructor plus 2 with the CO as check pilot then my 3 solos all in a Mk3 so each launch lasted just 3 or 4 minutes.

[ShyTorque]

Aah, RAF Swanton Morley. I did the week long course there in 1972 and went solo just 5 days after my 16th birthday.
I've still got my little green "licence" certificate booklet with a plastic cover, as issued back then and marked up with A and B endorsements.
Done a few flights since. Maybe I should have another go at it, now that I'm not flying for a living.

[bobward]

When I did my gliding course in Feb 1968, it ended with three solo's. I was told that I had to do at least one left tun, and one right, in whatever order to qualify for the A and B certificates.
However, this might have been an evil staff cadet winding up a nervous student! In any event, it was a fantastic experience for this 17 year old. At the time I was probably the only one in my schooll of 400 or so to have done something like that.
I can also remember 611 doing a 'longest weekend' session in the early 1980's, when they tried to make 611 launches.
When I read your initial request, Dave, did wonder if you were going to do a ' that was then, this is now' comparison.....

In any event, thank you from this ex-student to all who made it possible then and now.

[ShyTorque]

It wasn't an evil staff cadet, it was definitely a requirement to do turns in both directions for the A and B. With a 270 degree turn off the top of a winch launch in a not very efficient glider it needed a relatively tight circuit to avoid brown trousers for a young air cadet with a limited but still developing judgement of glide angle.

[DaveUnwin]

In case anyone's wondering I have asked various sources for how many cadets were sent solo this year - no joy.
Wrote to ATC HQ. My query was confirmed, forwarded and then nothing. BTW if you go on their web site/contacts it's quite interesting.
Spoke to acquaintance who flies at major ATC site. Claimed the site had sent cadets solos in 2023, unable (unwilling?) to provide actual numbers.
The only solid intel was from someone who is the CO of an Air Cadet squadron. None of his cadets have flown a glider solo in 2023.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1520x1068/394557191_3035878643211445_8268360345696561229_n_3cc5f394bb6 f1fe199062e99fd57654a5722180d.jpg
Last launch for the Freshers.

[POBJOY]

Hi Dave, Nice to see that the 'best value for money training machine' ever built (TMK3) still going ok. Your info 'quest' can be narrowed down as follows.
The Tot no of launches in 63 would include a hefty amount of AE input as this was a normal 'task' for schools by by then and eventually getting more efficient when the retrieve trolleys started to appear.
The 'schools' mainly ran w-end operations, plus continuous courses (usually Easter and summer) as staffing allowed.
The two Gliding Centres ran week long A&B courses as the norm, plus occasional instructor upgrades and training.
The peak years would have been before the intro of the Venture, and when the two centres were still operating, and also before we started to loose ATC airfields around the country. 63 would have been a good average that may have improved, as with more AE flying Cadets were exposed to Gliding earlier than before and consequently encouraged to do the A&B course plus the chance of advanced flying at Halesland.
As the Cadets usually claimed the Cert and enamel broach from the BGA this would also be a source of info.
Re the actual 'numbers' for the prescribed 3 solo's (A&B) I seem to recall the min required for the ATC was 19 training and 2 check flights, then you did 3 solo's on the trot. That was based on a 'continuous' situation, as w-end training was far more spread out with weather and availability plus 'gaps' for other reasons and could easily be over 30 launches for the same Cadet capability. I was lucky with Kenley (still going 615) being my local 'school' and can remember being quite shocked when we lost Tangmere, Manston, West Malling, Old Sarum, Weston, in a seemingly downward spiral. What we never lost was the legacy of being the best World Class basic training operation in the world (run by volunteers). Never to be repeated or improved upon. Not to mention those NAFFI pies at the winch end.

[longer ron]

Lovely picture Dave :)
I have just checked my old logbook and see I actually started my w/e course at 644 Spitalgate on 29th march '69 with 4 Lchs,then 3 Lchs on April 20th followed by some really consistent flying in June - interestingly I see I had 3 solo check flights towards the end of june but I guess that might have been to bring my dual flying up to min number of Launches for solo.
I remember some things about the course very clearly but other stuff very hazy - I remember the song played ad nauseum on the naafi juke box by the u/t WAAF's was 'Breaking up is hard to do' :rolleyes:,looking at the dates I guess I stayed over in one of the barrack blocks a couple of times.I really cannot remember how we travelled up to Spitalgate from Peterborough as we did not have a sqn minibus,I do remember a couple of trips with our CO as he had access to cars from his car dealership but don't think they were gliding related trips,one of those car trips was to Cottesmore for some reason.
As to cadet solo numbers I do remember that the majority of our older/senior/staff cadets had gliding 'wings' and of course in those days they were all awarded for actual solo flying not just for training courses.I think the only senior cadet without wings had a slight eye problem - although I do not remember any sort of medical examination before the gliding course ?

[Mechta]

We had an ex-Air Cadet instructor in our gliding club who said he had logged 13000 launches in Mk3s.

[chevvron]

I was lucky with Kenley (still going 615) being my local 'school' and can remember being quite shocked when we lost Tangmere, Manston, West Malling, Old Sarum, Weston, in a seemingly downward spiral. What we never lost was the legacy of being the best World Class basic training operation in the world (run by volunteers). Never to be repeated or improved upon. Not to mention those NAFFI pies at the winch end.
Kenley is now the ONLY school/VGS/Sqdn still operating in the south east of England; the others are all gone:
612: Originally formed at White Waltham as HQAC Glider Flight before HQAC moved to Brampton in about '71; spent a short while as a detached flight of 613 (Halton) and moved to Benson shortly before being assigned its number. When Abingdon closed, the UAS and AEF moved to Benson displacing 612 to Halton for about 2 years thence to Abingdon until it was disbanded 2016.
613: Based at Halton from the '40s and operated the aforementioned D/F at White Waltham along with occasional detachments to Bovingdon where I got my 'C' cert; operated alongside 612 before that school moved to Abingdon and then disbanded in 2016.
614: Wethersfield. Disbanded.
615: Operating again as normal.
616: Based at Henlow; disbanded 2016.
617: Originally based at Hendon. When this airfield closed, moved to Bovingdon and when that airfield closed, moved to Manston. Disbanded 2016.
618: West Malling. When that airfield closed a few abortive tries were made at re-establishing it at local civilian airfelds notably Challock but then moved to Odiham. Disbanded 2016.
623: Tangmere. Originally based at White Waltham but disbanded in 1960. Resurrected at Tangmere in 1963. Appears to have ceased operations in 1975.
By no means an exhaustive list; many VGS disbanded in the south east hence a massive 'hole' in potential catchment areas as well as a loss of all that knowledge and experience.
Others I know about:
622: I believe this Sqdn is operating once again at Upavon.
637: In the mid '60s we at Halton were offered the chance to help form a new GS at Gaydon and when that airfield closed 637 moved to Little Rissington which by this time was Army. Billeted at South Cerney for accomodation and messing but did not operate with the resident 621 VGS. Now re-formed at Little Rissington and operating alongside 625(?) which was displaced when Hullavington closed.
Having been a Staff Cadet/G1 grade pilot (P2 at it used to be), I was appointed WGLO between Herts & Bucks Wing ATC at 612 VGS, then took over responsibilites for 613 and for a short time for 616.
Any corrections/amendments please feel free.

[DaveUnwin]

Thanks for all the feedback folks, still nothing from ATC HQ though. For everyone who had a go in a '31, here's a great Keith Wilson pic from a photoshoot we did a few years ago.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/40_9292_wt900_slingsby_t_31b_tandem_tutor_saltby_17_08_2018_ dps_lead_copy_04f021f68ccc19e068444e214d945f92e1a2c5e4.jpg
It'd never been so high!

[chevvron]

The RAFROs who mostly operate HQAC are only there for a few years then move on to other things so there's a constant turnover of staff hence there is no 'pool' of memories from the past.
I presume there are records kept somewhere but where they are kept (Kew?) and how often they are 'purged' of dead wood there is no way of knowing. To illustrate, we all know that GRP glider servicing records were only kept by SERCO for a couple of years before being destroyed.

[POBJOY]

Thanks for all the feedback folks, still nothing from ATC HQ though. For everyone who had a go in a '31, here's a great Keith Wilson pic from a photoshoot we did a few years ago.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/40_9292_wt900_slingsby_t_31b_tandem_tutor_saltby_17_08_2018_ dps_lead_copy_04f021f68ccc19e068444e214d945f92e1a2c5e4.jpg
It'd never been so high!

Been there, but not at such altitude !! Great image of a Fantastic machine.(and in the proper scheme)
Anyone in management needing 'decision making training' just give them a few rides in one of these, and then some low level cable breaks to sharpen up the process. Better than a uni course. PC (The advanced training could include a fire warning bell and red light) just to keep them alert. We had it and chucked it all away.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

What a wonderful photograph.......

[chevvron]

What a wonderful photograph.......
Harumph.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?':E Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley. The base of controlled airspace at Kenley nowadays is 2,500ft amsl; when I got my 'C' at Bovingdon in 1966, you could fly up to 5,000ft amsl overhead but only if VFR, the base of controlled airspace was 1,500ft amsl
POBJOY: I would imagine that the medium cable break at Kenley would be the 'stinger' with such a small airfield; a low one shouldn't be so much of a problem.

[longer ron]

Don't know if this article is of interest Dave but it does give some Stats for No1 GC (Swanton Morley)
Excerpt from this website .....
https://hang-out.co.uk/uploads/RAF-Swanton-Morley-Gliding-Instructions.pdf


NO 1 GLIDING CENTRE

No 1 Gliding Centre was originally formed at Detling, Kent, as Home Command Gliding Instructors' School. Its task was to train instructors for all the Air Training Corps weekend Gliding Schools at the time of the expansion of the organisation. With completion of that task, the Unit moved to Hawkinge in 1956, taking on its present commitment, and came to Swanton Morley in January 1962, when Hawkinge closed.
The Centre is not only responsible for training ATC and CCF Cadets to the ATC Proficiency and Advanced Gliding Standard each year, but also trains gliding instructors required by the weekend Schools.
In addition, each Gliding School in the Southern half of England is inspected at least three times a year, and all their instructors tested to see that they maintain safe standards. Finally, one Primary Glider Instructors' Course is run each year.

​​​​​​​ In the fourteen years ended 31st December 1969, the unit completed the following:-

Launches - 228,563
Flying Hours - 228,563
Cadets Trained - 5,088

[longer ron]

Some familiar nemes from No1 GC staff :)

Sqn Ldr Curtis did my check for P2 during a 'trapper' visit to 613 Halton - a really nice guy :)
I also met Robin Miller but never flew with him.

YOUR INSTRUCTORS
Sqn Ldr D.J. CURTIS, MBE Officer Commanding, A flying instructor since 1944, instructing on fourteen different types of aircraft ranging from Tiger Moth to Hunter Mk VII including Mosquito, Meteor and Varsity. Arrived No. 1 Gliding Centre January 1970 from No. 21 Squadron Air Support Command flying Pembroke and Devon aircraft.
Flt Lt I.LADLEY Chief Flying Instructor. Wartime Fighter Pilot. Flying Instructor since 1949. Flown gliders in Germany and Canada. Joined the Unit in 1954. Flt Lt D.G.KING Wartime service pilot. Has flown gliders in Germany, Canada and Spain. An ATC Gliding Instructor since 1949.
Flt Lt N.J.MACLEOD OC 'B' Flight. Wartime Transport Command Navigator. Began gliding in Germany 1949. ATC Instructor since 1950. OC No.663 Gliding School Abbotsinch prior to joining this Unit.
Flt Lt S.J.EASTON OC 'A' Flight. Started gliding as ATC cadet i n 1956. Staff Cadet at 616 Gliding School 1958. Instructor with 616 from 1960 until appointed to the staff of No. 1 Gliding Centre in 1966.
Flt Lt R.W.A.MILLER Learned to glide as cadet at No. 613 Gliding School, Halton, in 1957. Staff Cadet and then instructor until 1967 when appointed to the staff of No. 1 Gliding Centre.

Flt Lt A.C.POND Began gliding in 1945 as Subsequently served with Nos. 129, 142, 614 School as Instructor until appointed to No1 GC n 1967.
Between them, the Instructors of the Unit have completed over 105,000 launches.

[Frelon]

Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley.

I was a Staff Cadet and then an instructor at Kenley from 1960 and remember flying a Sedbergh (rarely called a T21 by the Air Cadets) at 4500' feet over Croydon airport havng been launched from Kenley. My passenger was Chief Tech Tom Clinton who was in charge of our MT Servicing at RAF Biggin Hill. He had become bored with quiet weekends in the Sergeants' Mess at BH so somehow managed to get attached to 615 as a supernumary, very useful to have our own personal MT support person on-site!

It was rather a strange (and unusual) feeling being so far above the sights of London, I remember seeing a VC10 below us on it's way into Heathrow! With 20/20 hindsight it was probably a good (and safe) idea to introduce the height restriction for Kenley!

On the rare occasions when we were on the rota to have the Swallow and trailer we decided to make good use of it and carry out instructor flying mid week. I successfully managed my Silver C distance flight by flying between the London and Gatwick zones down to Lasham.

Great picture Dave, brought back so many memories.

[longer ron]

Sedbergh (rarely called a T21 by the Air Cadets)

Yep - usually referred to fairly universally as a 'Barge' - very rarely heard anybody calling them a 'Sedbergh',which incidentally was my Dad's old boarding school :)

[chevvron]

Some familiar nemes from No1 GC staff :)

Sqn Ldr Curtis did my check for P2 during a 'trapper' visit to 613 Halton - a really nice guy :)
I also met Robin Miller but never flew with him.
Never met Sqdn Ldr Curtis; Dougie King did all our checks at Halton in my day (1964 to 1971) and he also brought the T53 in for us to have a go in..
Of course I knew Robin Miller very well and flew with him frequently especially after I was a 'bad boy' and landed '275 in the small field (the one on the right as you approached from the main camp) next to the airfield; my check flight with Robin (CFI as I remember after Phil Plows retired) was carried out in silence apart from remarking when he got out 'speed was only 43 kts on final'. You also had to make sure when flying with Robin that you got the stick well back for landing; god forbid you let the main skid touch the ground!

[POBJOY]

Harumph.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?':E Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley. The base of controlled airspace at Kenley nowadays is 2,500ft amsl; when I got my 'C' at Bovingdon in 1966, you could fly up to 5,000ft amsl overhead but only if VFR, the base of controlled airspace was 1,500ft amsl
POBJOY: I would imagine that the medium cable break at Kenley would be the 'stinger' with such a small airfield; a low one shouldn't be so much of a problem.

Well Chev when it was your base site it was the norm. But Kenley was quite small by most RAF station standards (not suitable for Jet extension) and on a medium break it was as I recall quite important to turn in the correct direction. We did reduce the chances of a CB on a first solo by always using a new cable for this purpose, hence by dint of common sense and experience 'we actually performed a safer operation' now called ALARP 'as low as risk possible'. Quick thread creep as at this time watching a program on the Pegasus Bridge Glider assault. Never mind ALARP those guys were just B.......Good, and got it spot on first time out, in an amazing show of precision flying that has little equal in the Gliding assault world.

[DaveUnwin]

Couldn't agree more Pobjoy. Here's my Pilot column from a few month's ago.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1400x2000/screenshot_2023_11_08_at_00_33_46_b3eb057f9e1241fe6f5d7102d5 dd5a8a42064b8d.png

[Krystal n chips]

It wasn't an evil staff cadet, it was definitely a requirement to do turns in both directions for the A and B. With a 270 degree turn off the top of a winch launch in a not very efficient glider it needed a relatively tight circuit to avoid brown trousers for a young air cadet with a limited but still developing judgement of glide angle.

That's true, hence my second solo resulted in an unplanned arrival on a "well stocked " ramp at Burtonwood, albeit despite its many merits, the Mk3 would happily demonstrate its ability to sink when it encountered such, which contributed to my first "field landing " as it were.

I am still awaiting my "Good Show " from Wing Commander Spry for this feat of airmanship..

However, I would like to mention "other VGS's were available " , away from the South, such as Sealand and, as above, Burtonwood. ;)

[Yellow Sun]

Some familiar nemes from No1 GC staff :)

Flt Lt N.J.MACLEOD OC 'B' Flight. Wartime Transport Command Navigator. Began gliding in Germany 1949. ATC Instructor since 1950. OC No.663 Gliding School Abbotsinch prior to joining this Unit


There’s a name I haven’t seen mentioned for over 60 years, the “ Loud” Macleod. I flew with him at Abbotsinch a couple of times before doing my 3 solos. Many years later my last flight was GLA-LHR, Cadet Mk3 to Airbus flown one you’ve flown them all.

YS

[Bill Macgillivray]

Just found my old BGA logbook (price 2 shillings!) and saw I did first solo in T31 on 19 Dec. 54. This was at Exeter and I cannot find the School number anywhere. I am sure it is long gone but it would be nice to know for the ancient memory bank!! Brilliant pics - thank you! Bill

[ShyTorque]

I discovered my long lost CCF Record of Service book under a pile of papers in a drawer last night.

My first glider flight was on my 16th birthday and as I previously mentioned went solo five days later. After a grand total of 1 hour, 26 minutes of flight time. Mind you, each flight only lasted 3 or four minutes…. :p

[chevvron]

However, I would like to mention "other VGS's were available " , away from the South, such as Sealand and, as above, Burtonwood. ;)
I deliberately steered clear of most other sites because I only knew the south east although I do remember :
Kirton in Lindsey; a VGS co located with No 2 Gliding Centre before that moved to Spitalgate.
Catterick Right next to the A1 and deliberately ruined by the army building houses close to the runway.
Lindholme only in use for a short time.
Wittering mooted as a VGS but then the AEF/UAS people moved in.
Binbrook Closed when the RAF disposed of it.
and many (too many) more.

[Prangster]

Early Feb 1963 643 GS Kirton in Lindsey. Course been staggering on through foul and fouler weather since before Christmas 1962. C.O getting fed up with the sight of us miserable reprobates 3 in number who seem to becoming permanent fixtures and decides todays the day. Mates scramble 3 solos in deteriorating weather, snow flurries etc making life difficult. I scuttle 2 solos then sit in the cockpit for 40minutes waiting for a decent break in the clag. Suffice to say the last one was hairy in the extreme (I finished up sandwiched between two cloud layers) Age 16yrs and 2 months. Join the ATC and be frightened witless! Somehow groped back down whistling Dixie.

[Clyffe Pypard]

At 125 Gliding School Langley it took me 1hour 25 mins to get to first solo.

Clyffe Pypard
age 90

[ShyTorque]

At 125 Gliding School Langley it took me 1hour 25 mins to get to first solo.

Clyffe Pypard
age 90

I obviously was an hours hog….:p

[POBJOY]

I well remember the 'briefing' at Swanton in 63 for a continuous A&B Course on the Monday morn.
Given by the 'Boss' who was sporting a DFC still a Flt Lt.
' The Airfield is all yours this week I dont care where you land on it but keep it on the Airfield.' !!!

[Quietplease]

Did my A&B certificates 11/03/54 at 105 GS Cambridge in a Cadet Mk1.
Did my last solo August last year in a DG500 along the South Downs ridge. Had hoped to make 70 years but decided to be old not bold.

[chevvron]

My '16th' was midweek so I commenced my course asap on saturday 3 Oct 1964 . Attended weekends only (mostly saturdays) until 7 Nov with a couple of days lost due bad weather: 35 launches incl solo checks then my final 3 solos so 38 in total; time overall was 1 hr 56 min.

[longer ron]

I well remember the 'briefing' at Swanton in 63 for a continuous A&B Course on the Monday morn.
Given by the 'Boss' who was sporting a DFC still a Flt Lt.
' The Airfield is all yours this week I dont care where you land on it but keep it on the Airfield.' !!!
Presumably K. E. BAILEY, DFC (156694) ?
I think Ian Ladley perhaps had the dubious distinction of being the oldest Flt Lt at one time ?

But by the 1950's/60's most of the full time Gliding Centre Instructors held possibly RAFRO 'J' class commissions ? perhaps with the CO and Adj still being regulars ?
Ian Ladley ceased being a regular in 1954 (medically unfit) according to London Gazette,unless he was reinstated later - no mention of that in the LG but LG search results are patchy at the best of times.

regards LR

[chevvron]

Presumably K. E. BAILEY, DFC (156694) ?
I think Ian Ladley perhaps had the dubious distinction of being the oldest Flt Lt at one time ?

But by the 1950's/60's most of the full time Gliding Centre Instructors held possibly RAFRO 'J' class commissions ? perhaps with the CO and Adj still being regulars ?
Ian Ladley ceased being a regular in 1954 (medically unfit) according to London Gazette,unless he was reinstated later - no mention of that in the LG but LG search results are patchy at the best of times.

regards LR
Ian Ladley signed my P2 chitty on 30 Jul 1966.

[longer ron]

Ian Ladley signed my P2 chitty on 30 Jul 1966.


Yep David Ince DFC and Derek Piggot also lost their RAF Aircrew medical category but it did not preclude them from Gliding (istr they were both sinus related but have not read their autobios for many years).

[POBJOY]

We had good weather on my March 63 course so no chance for any chat about Typhoons or Tempests, but during a tea break IL caught me looking at the Very Pistol and I got a mild rebuke, until I pointed out I had unloaded it before inspection, and normally 'played' with a Lee Enfield .303. We had a great course, and all of it out on the field other than the first day when we had the :- Please land on the airfield bit. In the evenings the Norfolk and Norwich Aero club were flying Tiger Moths, and I could not wait to order that little blue enamel badge from the BGA. It was a fabulous start in aviation and of course the organisation was at its peak. Having 'Soloed' on the Tues I thought that was my lot, but on the Friday I was put back in MK3 as I was 2 launches short of the min required. I was allowed the launches but then Douggie King took over and proceeded to have a 'time warp' moment and thought he was back in the 2nd TAF. The second launch was a repeat but included a mock rocket attack on the main hangar followed by a rather low level turn to land by the doors. In my 3822 I recorded this as ground attack practice, and a couple of years later back at Kenley after a rather 'spirited' P2 'mission' was accosted by the B Cat (not Frelon) and had the cheek to say I had been checked out on this exercise by one of the 'Gods' at the centre (and got away with it) !!! My goodness we had some fun, which (in the summer) included stripping everything off our MK 1 SWB Landrover, folding the screen down and having a real hoot (up to lunch time when we were told to put it all back again) by the 'seniors'. Our escapades in the evening after most had gone home, and we were finished with checking the cables for the next day, are still covered by the official secrets act and will not be released until 2030. 'Bill Bailey' later turned up running a Pub in Thornton Heath, (I think the DFC was on Lancs) but we never saw him at Kenley, (which was a shame)

[DaveUnwin]

Thanks for all the feedback boys - and I hope you'll all be pleased to hear that WT900 flew 12 launches (mostly Loughborough 'freshers') at Saltby last Saturday.

[paulross]

Yep David Ince DFC and Derek Piggot also lost their RAF Aircrew medical category but it did not preclude them from Gliding (istr they were both sinus related but have not read their autobios for many years).
If I remember Derek Piggot earned a place on the Empire Test Pilots School but his medical showed him to be high tone deaf (like many wartime pilots) so he went to ATD Gliding at Detling.

[longer ron]

If I remember Derek Piggot earned a place on the Empire Test Pilots School but his medical showed him to be high tone deaf (like many wartime pilots) so he went to ATD Gliding at Detling.

Thanks for the correction Paul,I did ponder after I posted that it might be deafness,as I said - I have not read the book for some years.
ISTR it was similar for David Ince - I think he had actually completed the ETPS course when he found out about his sinus problem,I should have a check through his book,but it is a little late now and I do not want to disturb the boss as she is at work early tomorrow.

regards LR

[sycamore]

D H G INCE,RAF ,No4 Cse,ETPS 1946......Nothing on Piggott; H C N Goodhart RN ,Same Cse.

[chevvron]

Thanks for all the feedback boys - and I hope you'll all be pleased to hear that WT900 flew 12 launches (mostly Loughborough 'freshers') at Saltby last Saturday.
Only 12?
More than once I flew 8 AEG trips in a Mk3 in about 1.5 hours, then other pilots would take over and do the same until dark.
That was the thing with Air Cadet gliding; get as many people airborne as possible but by all means do a bit of soaring if the chance occured. I did try a few civil clubs but it was so slow and time wasting I couldn't be bothered.

[DaveUnwin]

We did have quite a few other gliders out as well Chevron! With only one winch and one tug you just have to wait your turn for a launch.

[76fan]

My '16th' was midweek so I commenced my course asap on saturday 3 Oct 1964 . Attended weekends only (mostly saturdays) until 7 Nov with a couple of days lost due bad weather: 35 launches incl solo checks then my final 3 solos so 38 in total; time overall was 1 hr 56 min.
I have no record of the number of launches or flight time during my training at Hendon in 1960 but it must have been similar to yours, all done in the Mk3. Winch, crosswind, downwind, base leg, finals, spoilers out, land .... no time for anything else and definitely no soaring. How on earth did you record your airborne time, with a stopwatch with a second hand? I wish that I could remember the maximum height we achieved, I seem to remember about 600ft and I doubt it could have been more than about 800ft., but it was a long time ago.

[chevvron]

I have no record of the number of launches or flight time during my training at Hendon in 1960 but it must have been similar to yours, all done in the Mk3. Winch, crosswind, downwind, base leg, finals, spoilers out, land .... no time for anything else and definitely no soaring. How on earth did you record your airborne time, with a stopwatch with a second hand? I wish that I could remember the maximum height we achieved, I seem to remember about 600ft and I doubt it could have been more than about 800ft., but it was a long time ago.
Don't know what system was used at other schools but at Halton, White Waltham and Bovingdon there was a log sheet which had to be filled in then initialled by the pilot before takeoff along with takeoff and landing times which were recorded at the launch point. Most instructors/AEG pilots also noted their times on their own kneepads in order to cross check.
As for maximum height in the circuit, the proximity of Hendon to Runway 23L approaches at Heathrow and Runway 25 approaches to Northolt would put stringent limits on that irrespective of cloud base or height gained off the launch and it would also limit Runway 05R departures from Heathrow and Runway 07 departures from Northolt; the height limit I mentioned earlier regarding Kenley (5000ft amsl if VFR) would not have applied at Hendon as it was in a different type of airspace where IFR control started at the surface.

[POBJOY]

As far as Kenley was concerned a MK3 jaunt was normally booked as 3 miins and the T21 poss 5 (The BGA used to describe our activity as Aerial Tobogganing but were happy to take our money for the Badge and Cert). Frelons 'escape' to the west was a rare one, and indeed I do not recall ever seeing a chart at Kenley let alone a briefing on airspace. The usual issue for us was traffic heading for Biggin Hill which was getting very busy after it replaced Croydon for club flying. Kenley was not really the ideal spot for an 'out landing' but again I do not recall ever having a briefing on that situation and indeed I had decided that if one got clobbered by some severe 'sink' it would be down the hill to land on the Whyteleafe common (or cricket pitch) and then flee the Country. Local knowledge would have made this a safe option but no doubt excommunication from the system would have followed,(after 'the system' recovered from such an event). It was interesting visiting other local units :- Tangmere, Manston, and West Malling, as it brought home how 'quaint' Kenley was compared to these other 'Jet Fields'. Actually Whyteleafe Cricket pitch had featured in Reach for the sky (filmed at Kenley) so my defence would have revolved around that. As Chev remarks Kenley 'is not large', so why did the nerds at HQ allow a substantial wooden fence to built on the peri track as this reduced its safety margin even more, it beggars belief.

[treadigraph]

I look at Reach for the Sky now and then stand on Whyteleafe Rec and marvel that it's the film's cricket location. The near bare hill side of the film is covered with impenetrable scrubby hazel, blackthorn and whatever else!

Anybody who didn't quite make it back in a Viking could probably squeeze it in between the play pen and the tennis courts but there ain't much room, and trees along the railway embankment. Nowhere else in the valley, though the northern half of Bourne Park might just be doable. Early decision and land on Riddlesdown above the quarry (or Farthing Downs if southwest of the airfield)! I've never seen anyone get that low though.

Speaking of T-21s, Surrey Hills had one a few years ago, remember watching it overhead, nearly stationery in a strong north-easterly, and I could hear the control surfaces creaking from a few hundred feet below!

[chevvron]

As far as Kenley was concerned a MK3 jaunt was normally booked as 3 miins and the T21 poss 5.

It was interesting visiting other local units :- Tangmere, Manston, and West Malling, as it brought home how 'quaint' Kenley was compared to these other 'Jet Fields'. Actually Whyteleafe Cricket pitch had featured in Reach for the sky (filmed at Kenley) so my defence would have revolved around that. As Chev remarks Kenley 'is not large', so why did the nerds at HQ allow a substantial wooden fence to built on the peri track as this reduced its safety margin even more, it beggars belief.
Looks like it was 'rule of thumb' for times then because at Halton, if in doubt we also booked 3 min in a Mk 3 and 5 in a Sed.
As for the wooden fence recently constructed round Kenley, surely it needs to be 'frangible' so that if anyone overruns they won't cause too much damage but having said that, there are probably idiots living in the vicinity (no I'm not talking about you treadigraph) who think it's perfectly safe to wander all over the airfield irrespective of the fact it is active with cable launching 7 days a week and there are warning signs posted.
I only encountered 617's operation at Manston briefly when I ran an Easter Camp at Manston in 1988 however I understand in spite of all that space, their operations were restricted to a small area called the 'Northern Grass' which was north of the public road running across the airfield; this even applied when the main grass strips south of the road were in use for Chipmunk and PPL flying. Of course this may have all changed after RAF moved out in 1999 and the airfield was 'privatised'.

[longer ron]

Speaking of T-21s, Surrey Hills had one a few years ago, remember watching it overhead, nearly stationery in a strong north-easterly, and I could hear the control surfaces creaking from a few hundred feet below!

I had a couple of flights in a privately owned T21 at Kenley in 1992,we even 'got away' from a bad launch (logged as 600') for a 12 minute evening flight - not bad little trip with a cosim vario on which the 'green ball' was not working at all :)

[chevvron]

Speaking of T-21s, Surrey Hills had one a few years ago, remember watching it overhead, nearly stationery in a strong north-easterly, and I could hear the control surfaces creaking from a few hundred feet below!
I did similarly from Halton back in the '90s while flying 3 - axis AX3 microlights. Surface wind was around about 20 kts so I flew overhead at about 2000ft agl into the headwind and reduced air speed until my groundspeed reduced to zero, about 35 kts indicated, stalling speed being about 26kts. No creaking of control surfaces; all you could hear was the Rotax 2 -stroke just above tickover!

[treadigraph]

As for the wooden fence recently constructed round Kenley, surely it needs to be 'frangible' so that if anyone overruns they won't cause too much damage but having said that, there are probably idiots living in the vicinity (no I'm not talking about you treadigraph) who think it's perfectly safe to wander all over the airfield irrespective of the fact it is active with cable launching 7 days a week and there are warning signs posted.

Saw a kid run out onto the airfield a few years ago while launching was taking place despite the implorings of his elderly granddad. I had my bike with me and sprinted round to the launch point... also saw a pair of rottweilers chase a very low and high speed Viking rounding off the days gliding with a sizzle across the airfield. Then there were the kite fliers just off the airfield, and under the approach, someone from 615 arrived there just before I did!

[brakedwell]

My gliding experience is extremely limited! In 1961 I returned from RAF Bahrain and joined the Coastal Command Comunications Flight. In November 61 I was given a secondary duty! O/C Coastal Command Gliding! I tried to escape the duty because I knew nothing about it, but I failed and I was sent to RAF Hawkinge in December to learn how to glide! I did not know Hawkinge was the WRAF Officer Cadet training base, so I was outnumbered by female Officers when having a pint in the evening! My one week gliding course was a total disaster! I think I did three launches and spent the rest of the time sheltering from the wind and rain! The Officers mess was a very lonely place for a young Flying Officer and I was glad to get back my proper job! I also managed to shed my secondary duty!

[chevvron]

My gliding experience is extremely limited! In 1961 I returned from RAF Bahrain and joined the Coastal Command Comunications Flight. In November 61 I was given a secondary duty! O/C Coastal Command Gliding! I tried to escape the duty because I knew nothing about it, but I failed and I was sent to RAF Hawkinge in December to learn how to glide! I did not know Hawkinge was the WRAF Officer Cadet training base, so I was outnumbered by female Officers when having a pint in the evening! My one week gliding course was a total disaster! I think I did three launches and spent the rest of the time sheltering from the wind and rain! The Officers mess was a very lonely place for a young Flying Officer and I was glad to get back my proper job! I also managed to shed my secondary duty!
You may have been on the same course as my older brother who was also sent to Hawkinge in Dec '61 but as a cadet; he too did about 3 launches then the airfield closed at the end of that month and No 1 GC re-located to Swanton Morley.
As you were at Bovingdon, you could have finished your gliding training at nearby Halton like my brother did; we lived in Chesham at that time.

[Warmtoast]

My first solo was in 1952 at 5 FTS, R.A.F. Thornhill (Rhodesia) whilst a member of the R.A.F. Thornhill Gliding Club.

The R.A.F. Thornhill Gliding Club was formed with the object of bringing glider flying to those stationed at R.A.F. Thornhill. Two second hand gliders a “Tutor” and a “Primary” were bought from the Rand Flying Club, Johannesburg, and these eventually arrived at Thornhill in 1951. They were assembled, and successfully test flown in March 1952. The club was then in business. The PSI/Station supported the club by allocating a 15cwt truck for glider towing duties, but otherwise the club was self-supporting with funds raised from members. The club had a joining fee of £1 and a monthly subscription of 10/- (50p). There was a further charge of 1/- (5p) for each launch.

Gliders were launched by being towed across the airfield by the truck, using a towing cable of steel wire, up to five hundred yards long. With this method, it was possible to launch the gliders to heights of over a thousand feet.

In the first stage the “Primary” was used and the towing speed kept too low for it to become airborne, but as the pupil became familiar with the controls as it “slid” across the airfield he would after a very short time find himself flying across the airfield, in full control, first at only a few feel, then at greater heights as he gains experience and learns to control the glider in turns. Promotion to the “Tutor” followed with further training in easy stages, leading up to the red-letter day when he soars successfully.
Looking back in 1952 the “Primary,” was probably the most elementary form of flying machine still flying; I’m sure the Wright Brothers would feel very much at home flying it!

I joined the Club in late 1952 and my first ‘flights’ in the “Primary” were hair-raisingly scary. There was no two-seat version so initial “flights” took place as one was tugged along the ground at 30-40 mph, having been told to keep the stick forward to keep the glider on the ground and wings level with the ailerons and use the rudder to follow the towing truck. With only a couple of inches between the seat bottom of the “Primary” and the baked-hard Rhodesian airfield surface, avoiding bumps on the ground, including nascent ant-hills (and there were many) was as much as part of learning to fly a glider as actually getting off the ground. With no instructor alongside to get you out of trouble it was all a bit scary, but one could rely on the duty instructor yelling into a megaphone to shout instructions from the ground!

With eighty or so aircraft on the airfield we regularly ‘acquired’ petrol for the tow trucks by draining a little from an Anson or a Harvard or two! High octane aviation spirit and low-compression vehicle engines which in Rhodesia in 1952 would probably run on fermented porridge juice just don’t mix, with the result that the high-octane aviation spirit played havoc with the low-compression engines of the towing trucks; burnt valve seats etc caused lots of un-serviceability. Luckily two Gliding Club members worked in the MT Section and repairs were usually quickly resolved.

Later as one progressed to short hops things improved and even more so when the instructors allowed flights up to a couple of hundred feet or so: cast off and then do a series of ‘S’-turns, real flying at last, but still very primitive, no ASI, just a piece of string or a ribbon on the spar in front of one’s eyes, as long as it was fluttering in the slip-stream one was OK, however when it stopped fluttering it was time to put the nose down. Unforgettable, but sadly in my case I never did get to fly the ‘Tutor’ as the Rhodesian Air Training Group started to close down shortly afterwards and the Club assets were sold-off. But it was all good fun with fond memories.

Here’s what I looked like in one of my first flights.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x498/primary_glider_airborne_d82ce8ee18313b1f48a25260ec415c9f829d 8aea.jpg
Primary in 1952

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x500/tutor_glider_0ee097a0a5b95718cf17f2409b261f0e8a17f7a1.jpg
Tutor Glider copy from RAF Thornhill's BUKA magazine

[POBJOY]

Hi Chev 'The Fence' around the Kenley peri track is 'substantial' and not glider friendly. Treads will know but there are a multitude of gates built in which are supposed to be locked when gliding takes place. Apart from it being a danger for overruns it defaced the original wartime peri track which served through the BoB until they built the B..... fence. Nerds in control again, had Kenley stayed in Surrey it would not have happened. Surrey was proud of Kenley (A common that became a battleground ) 'especially on 18th Aug 1940'. History has shown us that the B O B was a defining point in WW2 because its outcome determined all that followed, and Kenley was an example of how fragile our defences were, relying on prewar stations with few defences or bomb proof buildings. Well, Kenley survived 1940, and then hit back in 41 on when we started on the over the channel raids. It deserves better.

[treadigraph]

Kenley's fence can be seen during its erection in 2018 in this thread: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/538497-air-cadets-grounded-117.html#post10334658

Thought I had posted some more recently but can't find them...

[POBJOY]

Kenley's fence can be seen during its erection in 2018 in this thread: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/538497-air-cadets-grounded-117.html#post10334658

Thought I had posted some more recently but can't find them...

Now that was a thread that did not pull any punches. (still going ) unlike most of the 'Schools'

[chevvron]

Kenley's fence can be seen during its erection in 2018 in this thread: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/538497-air-cadets-grounded-117.html#post10334658

Thought I had posted some more recently but can't find them...
Obviously designed as a deterrent measure rather than a preventive one; you can easliy climb over the fence ignoring the prominent notices.
I presume it was installed by MOD and no 'hazard analysis' was carried out because the CAA would never have allowed it without proper airside/groundside demarcation probably including a 2m high fence much further away from areas to which aircraft have access.

[treadigraph]

There are plenty of gates in the fence which are left open when there is no gliding - currently 615 generally fly Saturday and Sunday, Surrey Hills GC on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursdays (there's an unfortunate acronym for that!); otherwise the general public are welcome to wander hither and yon. Signs remind them to clear up after their canine companions but I gather that doesn't always happen...

Fence certainly MOD installation, the airfield is still Defence property, most of the area outside the peritrack belongs to Corporation of London as part of Kenley Common, other than the SE corner where the hangar and new ATC building is. If gliding ceases, the rest of the airfield returns to common land; however the area around the derelict Officer's mess is subject of a planning application. Or that's my understanding...