Tui runway excursion at Leeds Bradford 20/10/23

[SRMman]

Tui flight from Corfu off the runway at Leeds Bradford.

[80P]

Hopefully everyone ok.

[ETOPS]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x1267/dfb3e777_a485_418e_9e76_c2e288f06d31_a1fa7b891cff1d9ea982291 a34bcd9431d675307.jpeg

[SRMman]

From FlightRadar looks like it was getting rather close to the end of the runway.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x2000/screenshot_fr_29df38d6de3b28d61a8e1915d8e282ddf8cf81c4.png

[timmcat]

Heavy rain at the time. Reports suggesting no injuries.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/444x330/_t03ijm_63a6a71727db009c4294dc0cdf0998790fbac132.jpg

[buzzer90]

Read that they decided the grass was a better option than over running.

Sound plausible?

[orgASMic]

Leeds METAR showing 17-30kts crosswind. Tricky

[7of9]

Boeing 737-8K5 TOM 23C (BY3551) G-TAWD landed 13:53.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-67174117

[Speedywheels]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x720/img_0433_addaaa08ead1aa966648b25e0f175dcfaad28ec8.jpeg
Looks like it might take some digging to get it out

[Sonorguy]

The weather in Yorkshire, as elsewhere in the UK, is atrocious at the moment.

[rkenyon]

An ignorant question... it doesn't look like there was an emergency evacuation (no slides). Is that normal in an incident like this?

Or is it better to keep everyone in their seats if there is no imminent danger?

[TCAS FAN]

According to NOTAM C5926/23 the airport closed until 0100 BST Saturday. At this early stage this may be a bit optimistic, unless removal equipment, including that needed to make a temporary stable surface to get the aircraft back onto the asphalt, is readily available.

[grizzled]

is it better to keep everyone in their seats if there is no imminent danger?

Generally, yes (my bolding to emphasize the key part of your question).
And it's a good question.

[FLCH]

Keeping them in their seats is good, as dragging your suitcase in the mud is not optimal.

[ShyTorque]

Apparently it’s just “moved off” the runway. Best not use any stronger language such as “skidded off” or “departed from” so as not to frighten the kids…

Hopefully no injuries other than to trousers.

[grizzled]

FLCH: Well done! :ok:

[TCAS FAN]

Apparently it’s just “moved off” the runway. Best not use any stronger language such as “skidded off” or “departed from” so as not to frighten the kids…

Hopefully no injuries other than to trousers.

That's as it may be, the problem is what it "moved off" into, very soft ground?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Air bags, diggers and lots of steel matting required.

[thnarg]

Generally, yes (my bolding to emphasize the key part of your question).
And it's a good question.

And a good answer. Slides don’t behave well in strong winds, and pax don’t behave well when let loose.

[toratoratora]

Looks like a G/A on 14, and possibly one on 32 as well…

[SWBKCB]

Looks like a G/A on 14, and possibly one on 32 as well…

I can only see one approach using ADSB data

[jackharr]

I was based at LBA for several years but managed to get posted away before I went off the runway. I never came THAT close to going off, but did ruin a set of tyres staying on the hard stuff.

[toratoratora]

Flightradar playback seems to show otherwise, but that could well be my interpretation…

[monkey.tennis]

Flightradar playback seems to show otherwise, but that could well be my interpretation…

One procedural approach. Look at the altitude data.

[Plane Speaker]

Looking at the photo of the wing in Post #4 it appears that the mud has been sprayed over the wing by the engine cowl and what ever is remaining of the LH MLG, which I presume departed the aircraft? Pure speculation here, on my part.

[Flying Hi]

Looking at the photo of the wing in Post #4 it appears that the mud has been sprayed over the wing by the engine cowl nd what ever is remaining of the LH MLG, which I presume departed the aircraft? Pure speculation here, on my part.
Presume MLG bogged down deep in the muck.
That'll need more than a quick jetwash!

[Jonty]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/d87628fb_1bd5_41b7_b282_3d697673dea7_e6b04f806f7d77f8f95989c deb89cdc2d68c4da9.jpeg
Everything is still attached. I’m sure it will be fine.

[SQUAWKIDENT]

From BBC News:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-67174117

"The TUI flight from Corfu "moved off the runway whilst landing" at Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA) on Friday afternoon, the firm said."

That's one way of putting it :)

[toratoratora]

One procedural approach. Look at the altitude data.
Thanks, Monkey-now seen.
Did think the profiles looked a bit odd.

[Bradley Hardacre]

Bet it left a few skid marks

[Planner01]

Throw the reversers on and back her out. Might need to rock back and fourth on the clutch a bit first. What possibly could go wrong.
Then a quick trip and £10 in the local scratch and shine to get the of the muck off.

[LBIA]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/received_1405590573500659_3b108d7c75f7f4edcbbe71009bdf96ea3a 7903d9.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/received_342925208393117_2e17e58a8def3db85fbdb16f9913bbbff0c 4c068.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/received_3740236272878781_dc853f59d366b4cbc577b23f2e861aac22 a4ab36.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/received_1002242711081989_757395b37a742d54d18e67cea34f9b3873 c216fe.jpeg

[reverserunlocked]

Where’s Joe Patroni when you need him? Seriously though looks like everyone lived to tell the tale and as long as they can dig it out without collapsing the gear then it’ll be right as rain. LBA in a 737 NG in crappy WX isn’t much fun!

[Planner01]

Bet it left a few skid marks
I'm sure the two seats will need a wash

[Rarife]

Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea what did they do on arrival? I'm not familiar with Leeds.

[Apron Artist]

Another 738 departs the paved surface. Add it to the long list of others. In 13 years at LGW, 738s were more often than not the ones that suffered big problems on landing - from the Turkish that buckled the right MLG and sat on stand 102 for weeks awaiting repair, to, more recently one of TUI's 73Ms that knackered its NLG, round about lockdown time 2020. Seen plenty of Airbus touch-and-go last minute go-arounds but none damaged or causing lots of disruption. Apart from the Titan with the excess biocide in the fuel.

[Trossie]

Another 738 departs the paved surface. Add it to the long list of others. In 13 years at LGW, 738s were more often than not ...
LBA is not the same as LGW. Especially on a wet and windy day.

[Planner01]

Another 738 departs the paved surface. Add it to the long list of others. In 13 years at LGW, 738s were more often than not the ones that suffered big problems on landing - from the Turkish that buckled the right MLG and sat on stand 102 for weeks awaiting repair, to, more recently one of TUI's 73Ms that knackered its NLG, round about lockdown time 2020. Seen plenty of Airbus touch-and-go last minute go-arounds but none damaged or causing lots of disruption. Apart from the Titan with the excess biocide in the fuel.
I flew the -200 and -300 and found them easy to land. 75 a bit heavy but still easy to lay down smoothly. Could place the A330 down with my eyes closed. Now back on the 73 but -800 and that extra length does make it tricker those final few ft. Will be interesting to have a go on the MAX10; the few videos out there of it shows a shallow flare and firm landing. Could hand fly a -200 like a PA28.

[Apron Artist]

LBA is not the same as LGW. Especially on a wet and windy day.

I'm fully aware of that, but even Wizz manage to plonk their A321s down without too many dramas. The 738 is a pig. Shame, Boeing used to make the best aircraft in the world.

[jackharr]

Come on guys. Some sympathy. It could happen to anyone. There are those who have been off the runway and those who haven't YET. (I retired before the YET!)

[Planner01]

Come on guys. Some sympathy. It could happen to anyone. There are those who have been off the runway and those who haven't YET. (I retired before the YET!)
Guilty. 1981 during PPL solo circuits in C150. Came in too fast, had a crosswind and discovered the 150's off-roading capabilities.

[Steve1968]

Snow foam might be of use here, prior to a good deep clean.

[Steve1968]

Come on guys. Some sympathy. It could happen to anyone. There are those who have been off the runway and those who haven't YET. (I retired before the YET!)
It cant just happen to anyone, and I dispute the "those that have and havent been end of the runway" as i discuss the outcomes in marginal weather with the First Officers and what it will read like on PPrune. careful planning and knowing when to press the TOGA button.

[Lyneham Lad]

A case of 'Pressonitis" as Air Clues used to say?

[FUMR]

It cant just happen to anyone, and I dispute the "those that have and havent been end of the runway" as i discuss the outcomes in marginal weather with the First Officers and what it will read like on PPrune. careful planning and knowing when to press the TOGA button.

There is so much wrong with your post that it is difficult to believe that you are a pilot, let alone a captain!

[Equivocal]

Just looking at those pictures makes me wonder whether if it had been a MAX, would the cowls have dug in the mud?

[DaveReidUK]

Read that they decided the grass was a better option than over running.

Sound plausible?

Frankly, no.

[toratoratora]

Attempting to do a 135 degree turn onto Delta?
Wouldn’t want to do that any more than 10 kts in the wet-maybe less….

[safetypee]

While waiting for definite information, read up on the issues with landing in the reported conditions.

'Lateral runway excursions upon landing'
https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/3834.pdf Page 15 -

Leeds:
'Short', Wet runway
Gusting crosswind

Landing perf at or near limits; runway condition, braking performance, need to cancel reverse then reapply - landing perf near limits, … …

[Trossie]

I was based at LBA for several years but managed to get posted away before I went off the runway. I never came THAT close to going off, but did ruin a set of tyres staying on the hard stuff.
Come on guys. Some sympathy. It could happen to anyone. There are those who have been off the runway and those who haven't YET. (I retired before the YET!)

Two posts from someone who has flown into LBA.

[Steve1968]

There is so much wrong with your post that it is difficult to believe that you are a pilot, let alone a captain!
Well I'm the one eating my dinner comfortably at home and not having to explain what the hell Ive done coming of the runway.

[Trossie]

Another 738 departs the paved surface. Add it to the long list of others. In 13 years at LGW, 738s were more often than not the ones that suffered big problems on landing - from the Turkish that buckled the right MLG and sat on stand 102 for weeks awaiting repair, to, more recently one of TUI's 73Ms that knackered its NLG, round about lockdown time 2020. Seen plenty of Airbus touch-and-go last minute go-arounds but none damaged or causing lots of disruption. Apart from the Titan with the excess biocide in the fuel.

It cant just happen to anyone, and I dispute the "those that have and havent been end of the runway" as i discuss the outcomes in marginal weather with the First Officers and what it will read like on PPrune. careful planning and knowing when to press the TOGA button.
Two people who have not flown into LBA.

[Trossie]

The fact that this has not happened for a long, long time says a lot for the skills of those who have flown into there for so long. It can be hard work! Rather than anyone think to criticise those who have been unfortunate today, we should admire those who land regularly in those conditions, after long days and after busy years. Yes, I know there are "the numbers" that you must fly to, but those last minute gusts do not read the same books.

[DaveReidUK]

Attempting to do a 135 degree turn onto Delta?
Wouldn’t want to do that any more than 10 kts in the wet-maybe less….

They passed Delta at 70 kts, so probably not attempting to exit there ...

[lederhosen]

Flew into Leeds for a couple of years on the NG and it can be a tricky place. The runway is not well aligned with the prevailing winds and there was a phenomenon on short final where the speed would be all over the place. I think the Jet 2 guys called it the knot gobbler. The TAF today had pretty much complete crosswind and the initial procedural approach onto 14 looks like they never got close to being stabilised. The second time looked more promising although the ground speed looks like they had a generous Vref add on and possibly a bit of a tailwind.

[Magplug]

This is why we have crosswind limits. When you have full rudder in and it's still heading for the runway edge you are just another passenger.... It's too late to intervene.

[blue up]

Split-Scimitar wingtips limit the crosswind, IIRC. I assume this one has (had?) them? Hard to tell.

[Apron Artist]

The fact that this has not happened for a long, long time says a lot for the skills of those who have flown into there for so long. It can be hard work! Rather than anyone think to criticise those who have been unfortunate today, we should admire those who land regularly in those conditions, after long days and after busy years. Yes, I know there are "the numbers" that you must fly to, but those last minute gusts do not read the same books.

I wasn't questioning the flight deck performance, just pointing out that the equipment does seem to have more than its fair share of scenic tours away from the tarmac.

[MerseyView]

God's own country but the devil's runway!

If ATC gave out gusts on approach, no one would be in limits to land there. Anyway, the wind's completely different by the time ATC have finished reading it out.

[plg101]

I'm not a pilot but have used LBA for 35 years, and in the autumn/winter it's an absolute bugger as a passenger. I don't recall how many go-arounds or diversions I have been subject to but it's a shocking airport for weather due to location... highest in England.

I'm glad all are okay but slightly miffed that I'm supposed to be on the 7:45 to Faro in the morning and now I guess Brum or Manchester beckon...

[charliegolf]

Where’s Joe Patroni when you need him? Seriously though looks like everyone lived to tell the tale and as long as they can dig it out without collapsing the gear then it’ll be right as rain. LBA in a 737 NG in crappy WX isn’t much fun!
Excellent! My very first thought after seeing the pics- I just couldn't remember his name.

CG

[lederhosen]

The crosswind limits are for steady wind not gusts. Its impossible to know the actual crosswind at point of landing in a 737 NG. You use the tower reported wind. Today the wind was gusting and I would be very surprised if the reported wind was outside the operations manual limitations. It will be interesting to see the final report but I seem to remember that you were supposed to cancel reverse if you were having directional problems on rollout. This is not intuitive on a short wet runway.

[MerseyView]

The crosswind limits are for steady wind not gusts. Its impossible to know the actual crosswind at point of landing in a 737 NG. You use the tower reported wind. Today the wind was gusting and I would be very surprised if the reported wind was outside the operations manual limitations. It will be interesting to see the final report but I seem to remember that you were supposed to cancel reverse if you were having directional problems on rollout. This is not intuitive on a short wet runway.

Maybe in your airline, but not in mine, crosswind limits include gusts.

[Harry Grout]

4 pages of mostly utter drivel. I’ll wait until the professionals at the AAIB have done their work for the facts.

[AdamB28]

I’m only a lowly PPL living near LBA but surely this could be any of us, one day, if the circumstances conspire against us?

[Planner01]

4 pages of mostly utter drivel. I’ll wait until the professionals at the AAIB have done their work for the facts.
It was because of the coriolis effect. Very strong at Leeds.

[lederhosen]

There are differences not just between airlines but also manufacturers regarding crosswinds. I was a captain for quite a while on the NG and my memory without digging out the manuals was that these were demonstrated not hard limits. There was quite a lot of judgement necessary at times not least because the tower in certain places would report winds that were not always plausible. I used to have the readout on the FMC open with the wind value. We have discussed on other threads why this value is not always to be relied on but combined with the visual picture it can inform judgement. What I would say is that having been to Leeds quite a bit on the 737 you need your best game on days like today.

[hec7or]

The outbound originated from MAN, is it possible the crew were not LBA based?

[Andrew Heard]

I was based at LBA for many years, including a stint as Base Captain for a former UK regional airline. In that latter role I was, along with other airline representatIves, once sent a letter asking how runway markings and lighting could be improved. I replied that the only way to make the runway better would be to slice off the threshold of RW 32 (along with a bit of the local golf course), flip it over to the threshold of RW 14, demolish the terminal and rotate the whole runway, so that it pointed into wind. A facetious suggestion since there isn’t room, but it amused me for a while. I also suggested that concrete was not a good runway surface because it doesn’t drain. Needless to say my advice was not heeded.
Joking apart, LBA’s runway is shamefully inadequate, and a challenge even for experienced pilots in moderate weather. It annoys me intensely that plans for new terminals (see recent press releases) with shiny shops have always been such a misplaced priority.

[Lazyturtle]

luckily no one seem to got injured. Thoughts either way with the Crew involved they must be going through a hard time

[Cannylad]

Can’t see what Steve1968 said to which you took exception. You are not safely landed when the wheels touch the tarmac, and careful briefing of possible scenarios can only prepare you for possible problems.

[suninmyeyes]

It looks like the wind was 070/17 gusting 30 and wet. They landed on Runway 14.

I remember when the Airtours Tristar went off the end of runway 14 in May 1985. I flew into LBA the following day in a Fokker F27 and had to land on the cross runway 28 which I see no longer exists. We had to do a water methanol takeoff to get airborne on 28.

The following is just a possibility. The Tui landed with autobrake selected. The far end was coming up a little faster than they would have liked and the handling pilot took out the autobrake to apply max manual braking. He would have needed quite a lot of right rudder to avoid weathercocking into wind. It is hard to apply full braking evenly when you have a boot full of rudder applied, especially on the pedal furthest away from you.

[benish]

I’ve read on socials that the pilot came out and said he thought he was running out of runway so took it onto the grass.

An LTE airbus did the same back in 2005. The crew mentioned not seeing the end of the runway due the dip.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050518-1

You can’t see the end of 14 as you approach Delta, it goes up hill then dips away again.


A Ryanair planted his nose gear in roughly the same spot a year or so ago, he though was attempting the turn to Delta at high speed and balls’d it up.

Tui don’t have a base at Leeds so it certainly was an out of base crew.

2 heavy lifting cranes are on site to try shift it.

[DaveReidUK]

A Ryanair planted his nose gear in roughly the same spot a year or so ago, he though was attempting the turn to Delta at high speed and balls’d it up.

June 2022:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1259x535/ryanair_leeds_20220605a_b4ea1a37e64ec944b2d251dbd8c6e9e44c24 280b.jpg

https://twitter.com/legger2011/status/1533431795156500481

[skua]

It's all a cunning plan by Tui to prevent a better airline operating over the weekend from its home base.

[speedrestriction]

LBA is maybe the most challenging (non island) runway that sees scheduled jet CAT traffic in the U.K. I have operated three different airliner types into Leeds over the past two decades. It can be very challenging in stormy weather and for someone who is unfamiliar with the runway profile, it can catch you out. It is definitely not somewhere you want to spend an extended time in the flare enjoying the view.

As mentioned above, the AAIB report is the only public source where there will be enough detail available to reach an informed opinion.

[Capt Scribble]

4 pages of mostly utter drivel. I’ll wait until the professionals at the AAIB have done their work for the facts.
If you want the AAIB report you are on the wrong site; in about a year you will get the report. Until then, this area is for general discussion where there is plenty to learn from the experience and thoughts of others.

[ETOPS]

Hey la

God's own country but the devil's runway!

You owe me a keyboard :yuk:

[BFSGrad]

Where’s Joe Patroni when you need him?Today’s fixer would be Justine Patroni sporting a nose ring, vape clenched between her teeth, and a neck tattoo reading “let’s make some noise.”

[Loose rivets]

Rivets, also 84, has a memory of LBA that's so vivid it's as though I'm replaying the tape. 80's, in an F27. Night schedule.

Being checked by charming Chas from ABZ I'd been using huge handfuls of power during the approach onto 15. I recall telling our regulars that there was no bad weather about, it's just high winds coming off the hills that's making the air curly and if it exceeds certain limits I'd buzz off to Teesside. I was so full of BS.

Everything seemed okay when I landed - except the end of the runway was racing towards us in a strange an unnatural way. Tower's comment about 60 kts on the rear quarter just added to the dreamlike state. On the centreline. Pulling on the power levers fit to pull them out by the roots. Years on 1-11's counted for nothing. The reversers just were not working . . . or even fitted. :p

We were told to keep an eye out for the airstairs, last seen tumbling into the darkness. Our little girl needed Elastoplasts and Dettol, and a bloke hauling on smaller stairs was dispatched.

Immages of my memories still flood in. In the moments before coming to a standstill, I'd been recalling what the lighting poles look like when approaching from the other direction. How tall they were, and how tangled up one would be if subsiding onto them. These are just the kind of thoughts that could tempt one into taking a heavy bit of kit into the mud.

[roundwego]

“The TUI flight from Corfu "moved off the runway whilst landing" at Leeds Bradford Airport (LBA) on Friday afternoon, an airport statement said.”

It always amazes me the way the PR cretins come up with such drivel.

[wowzz]

Sorry to intrude, but in the early 1980s I flew (as SLF) out of LBA on numerous occasions, mainly to Glasgow on a twin turbo prop (?).
The locals would have me believe that in adverse wind conditions, traffic lights held road traffic at the end of the departing runway, as a precaution in case the departing aircraft was struggling for height.
I know it sounds far fetched these days, but was there any element of truth in that story ?

[Captain Beef]

Bet it left a few skid marks
On the inside AND outside

[Moonraker4]

It cant just happen to anyone, and I dispute the "those that have and havent been end of the runway" as i discuss the outcomes in marginal weather with the First Officers and what it will read like on PPrune. careful planning and knowing when to press the TOGA button.

And see despite all this careful planning, it still CAN happen to anyone. No profesional crew set off that morning intending on having an incident. You can involve TEM all you want at the planning stage and guess what? That’s not enough sometimes to prevent undesirable states. Press TOGA? Why? On an approach that was undoubtedly stable at the gate, performance calculated for and aware of the current/big picture. Do you really think for one second that they thought this was the likelihood of continuing an approach?

Your attitude absolutely stinks and I’d seriously recommend paying some attention at your next CRM day. In the meanwhile, look at some case studies and that might hopefully start to shift that dangerous attitude of ‘it won’t happen to me’

[Count of Monte Bisto]

There but for the grace of God go I. I have nothing but sympathy for the Captain - it could just as easily have been me.

[jackharr]

Notable difference in the comments between those who think LBA is just "another airfield" and those (like me) familiar with LBA who know that it can be an utter bastard.

One little quirk is (was) the threshold of R/W 32. It has a (or had) a significant slope so as you taxied on and stopped briefly prior to take off, there was a tendency for the aircraft to want to roll BACKWARDS especially in a strong wind. As a training captain I would always advise catching that with power, not the brakes, which would possible tip the aircraft off the nosewheel.


The media still keeps saying "it skidded off runway". Maybe the term "weathercock", with those naughty four letters, wouldn't get past the censors. There are common species of birds that are sometime blanked out for similar reasons.

[Steve1968]

Two people who have not flown into LBA.

Ive flown into LBA many times and its not a pleasant place, careful planning and knowing limitations.

[sangiovese.]

Whoever it was. It happens. Everyone is ok just a bit muddy. There but for etc. please don’t beat yourself up. They’ll fix the jet.

[Jonty]

There but for the grace of God go I. I have nothing but sympathy for the Captain - it could just as easily have been me.

Yep, could have been anyone.

I have limited experience of Leeds, but what experience I have tells me it’s not an easy airport, and one that needs to be treated with respect. Much like Bristol. I imagine those that operate in there all the time will scoff at that, but familiarity breeds contempt.

Hopefully TUI management will be sympathetic to the crew after a bad day in the office.

[Mr Good Cat]

The problem with heavy rain at Leeds, is that even if you can land comfortably in the 115% Factored LD, the technique for recovery from loss of directional control creates a huge decision problem:

We are supposed to release the brakes and cancel reverse to idle, then get back on the centreline and apply full braking and reverse.

Is the 115% enough to cater for this momentary drop of all retardation until control is regained? Personally I say not. We don’t practice in the sim for it (not at my company anyway) and a lot of captains are not even aware of the required technique (not their fault it’s just not reinforced or covered). Also, the startle factor takes a huge chunk out of capacity and reaction time when it hasn’t been drilled in to the brain.

Whenever I go to contaminated runways (such as the arctic circle) I always apply a massive increment to LDA if there’s a crosswind. The issue of course, is whether we have the balls to offloads bags etc to reduce weight before we depart.

As mentioned earlier, anyone criticising the crew this early hasn’t really been into Leeds in this weather.

[DaveReidUK]

It would appear that Joe Petroni has been located:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/628x837/lba_c1de6c7fe64e4faca4898ade17333c6cee5c091e.jpg

[toratoratora]

They passed Delta at 70 kts, so probably not attempting to exit there ...

Thanks, Dave. Couldn’t find a detailed overlay…

[RetiredBA/BY]

Yep, could have been anyone.

I have limited experience of Leeds, but what experience I have tells me it’s not an easy airport, and one that needs to be treated with respect. Much like Bristol. I imagine those that operate in there all the time will scoff at that, but familiarity breeds contempt.

Hopefully TUI management will be sympathetic to the crew after a bad day in the office.
Hear , hear to that !
I took 73s and 75s into. LBA on several occasions., and treated it with the greatest respect even on CAVOK days. Certainly a very challenging landing in strong, gusting crosswind, pouring rain and wet runway. I remember the TriStar runway departure too well !
And that sloping horizon can be very misleading.

[Lazyturtle]

The problem with heavy rain at Leeds, is that even if you can land comfortably in the 115% Factored LD, the technique for recovery from loss of directional control creates a huge decision problem:

We are supposed to release the brakes and cancel reverse to idle, then get back on the centreline and apply full braking and reverse.

Is the 115% enough to cater for this momentary drop of all retardation until control is regained? Personally I say not. We don’t practice in the sim for it (not at my company anyway) and a lot of captains are not even aware of the required technique (not their fault it’s just not reinforced or covered). Also, the startle factor takes a huge chunk out of capacity and reaction time when it hasn’t been drilled in to the brain.

Whenever I go to contaminated runways (such as the arctic circle) I always apply a massive increment to LDA if there’s a crosswind. The issue of course, is whether we have the balls to offloads bags etc to reduce weight before we depart.

As mentioned earlier, anyone criticising the crew this early hasn’t really been into Leeds in this weather.

Absolutely spot on.

[Discorde]

Before its extension in 1982 runway 33/15 (as was) was only 1650 metres long and the traffic lights at the NW end kept road vehicles clear of the runway end, to protect the overrun area (R33) and road vehicles from jet blast or propwash (R15). Ops into LBA could be quite thrilling - low cloudbase, howling crosswind (no headwind to reduce groundspeed), short runway . . .


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/926x1322/06a8d4ca_05de_4049_a771_78ed9ca9fbf6_d10142d6df05f3ff1e2fdef ee0f71ce191eb66a2.jpeg

[Airbanda]

As a spotter in the years 74-78 and living in Guiseley I was back and forth along the A658 Harrogate Road on a regular basis. As was my Mother who taught at the Special School in the corner of Whitehouse Lane and Scotland Lane whom we accompanied from time to time.

I don't think there were permanent traffic lights, in fact I'm sure there were not. They may have been used temporarily on certain occasions.

There was an incident in the late sixties or early seventies when a Viscount approaching 15 clipped the top of the boundary fence. Nobody was aware until the outbound crew's walkaround found tyre damage.

There were also occasions when the airport sent a vehicle out to warn off people standing on street furniture watching take offs as the jets were running up against the brakes and they could be skittled over or suffer FoD.....

[WHBM]

Sorry to intrude, but in the early 1980s I flew (as SLF) out of LBA on numerous occasions, mainly to Glasgow on a twin turbo prop (?).
The locals would have me believe that in adverse wind conditions, traffic lights held road traffic at the end of the departing runway, as a precaution in case the departing aircraft was struggling for height.
I know it sounds far fetched these days, but was there any element of truth in that story ?
Yes, LBA was like that at the time, before the 1984 runway extension opened. Several UK airports had such traffic lights at the time, operated from the tower, and a couple still do, as the road is regarded as in the runway overrun area. Also avoids propwash/jetblast from departing aircraft departing in the reciprocal direction impacting light vehicles.

[treadigraph]

Traffic lights on the A road passing the 25 threshold at Northolt as I recall.

[EIFFS]

Leeds Bradford International airport is amongst one of the most challenging in the UK in adverse weather, its altitude means that it is often shrouded in cloud (often referred to as high speed fog) the bigger problem is the runway alignment is not toward prevailing winds, westerly or easterlies and that is down to its history as a departure airport for 2nd world war bombers at the factory (now warehousing) to the North of the airfield.

The runway dips up and down and in places has a cross slope, a combination of strong winds, cross slope can result in standing water, the aquaplaning speed (9 x square root of tyre pressure) would be below the touch down Vref of the event aircraft.

Looking at the pictures it would suggest that the mud all over the left wing could only have occurred due to full reverse thrust until a full stop, full reverse can lead to control difficulties in strong winds.

The Boeing V Airbus debate has some merit, but only in so far that landing weight on a like for like comparison will result in a Vref about 10 knts faster for the 737 because the tail clearance is significantly less on the 737 than the airbus.

The AAIB will confirm pilot experience levels, Tui have moved a lot of pilots onto the 787 and have been heavily recruiting new pilots onto the 737, the sim centres at Gatwick and Burgess Hill have been full of Tui TR courses (and still are) since Xmas

The winds on the day were generally from 070 degrees, given the runway was 14 and they have gone off to the left, then it looks like control difficulty during reverse thrust, hopefully auto brakes MAX had been selected and they didn't cancel it? very difficult to apply max manual and apply rudder inputs at the same time

[Silvershadow]

Glad everyone was ok.
Best thing they can do at LBA is build houses on it!

[monkey.tennis]

Airport now open according to LBA website

[wowzz]

Yes, LBA was like that at the time, before the 1984 runway extension opened. Several UK airports had such traffic lights at the time, operated from the tower, and a couple still do, as the road is regarded as in the runway overrun area. Also avoids propwash/jetblast from departing aircraft departing in the reciprocal direction impacting light vehicles.
Thanks for the confirmation.

[beamer]

Daft place to have an airport even if it has been there since at least WW2. And there is Finningley, still in God’s Own County, sitting unloved and unwanted !

[Equivocal]

Daft place to have an airport even if it has been there since at least WW2.Not the only city like that. When Bristol chose a site for its airport it picked Lulsgate Bottom, an airport developed during the war to teach instrument flying largely because of its poor weather record. By coincidence, or maybe not, it too had traffic lights (strictly speaking, more like level crossing light) on a road which passed close to one end of the runway back in the 70s for a good few years. I worked there for a while and remember that it could be a bit embarrassing is you forgot to let the traffic go wafter the aircraft had done its thing.

[pax britanica]

I was wondering when someone would mention Bristol.
They of course had an aifield with long runway on flat ground but built houses on it and moved the airport to the oddly named Lulsgate bottom , odd because its on the top of a hill . A shorter runway than LBA but more aligned to the prevailing winds but it does suffer from low cloud . being in th South West wind and rain are pretty common.

As anewcomer to the area it seems to em the sie was chosen when it was sleepy place but now serivnga big city and a propserous surrounding area it has far mor movements than anyone envisaged . Of course being in the Sw there are few options as almost all of it is hilly and if it isnt hilly its likely to flood.

The airport is almost all 737-8 and A320 series , any one with experience from the front seats wiling to give a view on its 'trickiness' or not. I know the 737-8 has a bad reputation in wet windy conditions.

Of course moving here from near LHR everything looks tiny by comparison (including the planes)

PB

[Midland 331]

https://live.staticflickr.com/6158/6186307712_60dd7356c2_b.jpg

Leeds & Bradford Airport | A different point of view by Mark Winterbourne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lbaviation/), on Flickr

It's still a nasty piece of concrete, stuck up in the weather, pointing the wrong way, with a reputation for slipperiness.

Not my photo.

[DaveReidUK]

Several UK airports had such traffic lights at the time, operated from the tower, and a couple still do, as the road is regarded as in the runway overrun area. Also avoids propwash/jetblast from departing aircraft departing in the reciprocal direction impacting light vehicles.

Rwy 13 at Edinburgh was a prime example of that, with traffic lights on the (then) A9..

[CaptainActor]

LBA is a horrible airport in bad weather. I have had some tricky times landing there over the years.

A thought for the Captain and FO who will no doubt not in the greatest spirits. Flying can be a cruel.

[Akrapovic]

LBA is a horrible airport in bad weather. I have had some tricky times landing there over the years.

A thought for the Captain and FO who will no doubt not in the greatest spirits. Flying can be a cruel.

Indeed, and they are likely reading this knowing exactly what happened - yet having to trawl through some of the drivel on here.

Leave it to the professionals - TUI are a very decent airline and no doubt their culture will ensure that the crew will be treated fairly and returned to flying duties in due course.

[B888]

“ The problem with heavy rain at Leeds, is that even if you can land comfortably in the 115% Factored LD, the technique for recovery from loss of directional control creates a huge decision problem: “

Not judging here but :

Part of the FAA SAFO 19003 States :-
Subject: Turbojet Braking Performance on Wet Runways.
Purpose: This SAFO cancels and replaces SAFO 15009 and warns airplane operators and pilots that the
advisory data for wet runway landings may not provide a safe stopping margin especially in conditions of
Moderate or Heavy Rain.
Background: Landing overruns that occur on wet runways typically involve multiple contributing factors
such as long touchdown, improper use of deceleration devices, tailwind and less available friction than
expected. Several recent runway-landing incidents/accidents have raised concerns with wet runway
stopping performance assumptions. Analysis of the stopping data from these incidents/accidents indicates
the braking coefficient of friction in each case was significantly lower than expected for a wet runway as
defined by Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 25 § Section 25.109 and Advisory
Circular (AC) 25-7D methods.
These incidents/accidents occurred on both grooved and un-grooved runways. The data indicates that
applying a 15% safety margin to wet runway time-of-arrival advisory data, as recommended by
SAFO 19001 (or current guidance), may be inadequate in certain wet runway conditions. Takeoff and
Landing Performance Assessment (TALPA) procedures implemented by the FAA on October 1, 2016,
added new insight as to how flightcrews can evaluate runway braking performance prior to landing.
TALPA defines WET as “Includes damp and 1/8-inch depth or less of water,” while CONTAMINATED is
“greater than 1/8-inch of water.
”
Discussion: These overruns have occurred on grooved and smooth runways during periods of moderate to
heavy rain. Analysis of these incidents/accidents indicates that the braking coefficient of friction in each
case was significantly lower than expected, and that 30 to 40 percent of additional stopping distance may
be required if the runway transitions from wet to contaminated based on the rainfall intensity or reported
water contamination (greater than 1/8-inch depth). For the operational in-flight landing assessment,
determining whether the runway is wet or potentially contaminated is the pilot’s responsibility.
The FAA recommends that airports report “Wet” conditions. However, airports are not required to report
when a runway is only wet. Further, an airport may not be able to generate a Field Condition NOTAM
(FICON) for sudden rain showers that result in water on the runway more than 1/8 of an inch in depth
(contaminated). Rainfall intensity may be the only indication available to the pilot that the water depth
present on the runway may be excessive. The 1/8-inch threshold that separates a wet runway with a
RWYCC of 5 from runway contaminated with water depth greater than 1/8-inch a RWYCC of 2 is based
on possibility of dynamic hydroplaning. This can be especially true in moderate rain if the runway is not
properly crowned, grooved, constructed with a porous friction course (PFC) overlay, or when water run-
off becomes overwhelmed. During heavy rain events, this may be true even on a properly maintained
grooved or PFC runway.
The TALPA RCAM recommends using landing performance data associated with medium to poor
braking or RwyCC of 2, if greater than 1/8-inch of water is anticipated to be on the runway. When
planning to land on a smooth runway under conditions of moderate or heavy rain, or when landing on a
grooved or PFC runway under heavy rain, pilots should consider that the surface may be contaminated
with water at depth greater than 1/8 inch and adjust their landing distance assessment accordingly.
Pilots should use all available resources to determine what condition they may expect upon landing to
include Air Traffic Control (ATC), FICONs (as some airports do report Wet conditions), flight
visibility, and/or onboard weather radar.

[tolip1]

I was wondering when someone would mention Bristol.
They of course had an aifield with long runway on flat ground but built houses on it and moved the airport to the oddly named Lulsgate bottom , odd because its on the top of a hill . A shorter runway than LBA but more aligned to the prevailing winds but it does suffer from low cloud . being in th South West wind and rain are pretty common.

As anewcomer to the area it seems to em the sie was chosen when it was sleepy place but now serivnga big city and a propserous surrounding area it has far mor movements than anyone envisaged . Of course being in the Sw there are few options as almost all of it is hilly and if it isnt hilly its likely to flood.

The airport is almost all 737-8 and A320 series , any one with experience from the front seats wiling to give a view on its 'trickiness' or not. I know the 737-8 has a bad reputation in wet windy conditions.

Of course moving here from near LHR everything looks tiny by comparison (including the planes)

PB

BRS 09 is tricky. Need to put it down just on the crest of the hill; land short and it will smash on the upslope, land long and the runway disappears beneath you quite quickly.

The wind whipping up and over the surrounding hills makes it doubly tricky. It's an unusually difficult place to operate from, given how many movements there are a day.

[Information Unicorn]

LBA is maybe the most challenging (non island) runway that sees scheduled jet CAT traffic in the U.K. I have operated three different airliner types into Leeds over the past two decades. It can be very challenging in stormy weather and for someone who is unfamiliar with the runway profile, it can catch you out. It is definitely not somewhere you want to spend an extended time in the flare enjoying the view.

As mentioned above, the AAIB report is the only public source where there will be enough detail available to reach an informed opinion.


I would suggest BRS 09 with 150-180/15+ kts up there with the most challenging in UK…

[2Planks]

Beamer, Indeed. And Finningley also had traffic lights, but they were called signals, used to stop the trains on the track in the undershoot of 20. And, if one of my instructors is to be believed, to stop the Vulcans taking off on 20 at full power blowing them off the embanked track.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

The writing for LBA should have been on the wall when Doncaster opened. Someone at DSA should have 'phoned Jet2 with an invite for Dinner - somewhere nice - for a serious discussion along the lines of "How much would it cost us to have you move your centre of operations from that ludicrous place you're at to our new, less challenging, and more operationally effective location here?"......

[Airbanda]

The writing for LBA should have been on the wall when Doncaster opened. Someone at DSA should have 'phoned Jet2 with an invite for Dinner - somewhere nice - for a serious discussion along the lines of "How much would it cost us to have you move your centre of operations from that ludicrous place you're at to our new, less challenging, and more operationally effective location here?"......

That has an air of possibility about it. How come Peel couldn't pull it off?

There were plans for a new airport for Yorkshire on what was termed Thorne Waste in seventies. Nothing came of it.

[L337]

Does anyone have what was on the ATIS at the time the accident occurred?

[Doors to Automatic]

Does anyone have what was on the ATIS at the time the accident occurred?

I did see one somewhere -it was along the lines of 070 at 18kts gusting 30kts, low cloud around 400ft and rain.

[beamer]

I’m not sure just how many ‘current’ professional pilots actually look at this particular site anymore. They invariably have their own Company and Union forums to discuss issues rather than be subject to some of the drivel on here from spotters, wannabes and retired old gits like myself !

[pug]

That has an air of possibility about it. How come Peel couldn't pull it off?

There were plans for a new airport for Yorkshire on what was termed Thorne Waste in seventies. Nothing came of it.

Thorne plans were rubbished as it wasn’t viable. In the middle of nowhere and remote from large urban areas. Similarly this has blighted Doncaster (just a few miles south of Thorne, ironically) and Peels attempt to usurp LBA. Let us not forget that airlines need passengers to fly with them otherwise they don’t last as airlines for very long.

Peel had tried to get Jet2 into Doncaster from day dot. Jet2 were not interested then and I doubt they’d be interested now. When PM decided to start a low-cost airline, he chose LBA as its launch base for a reason. Whilst it might be a pig of a place and wholly inadequate for the cities it serves, I can’t see any alternative plans being drawn up to flatten Barnsley and put an airport in its place any time soon, so stuck with LBA we are as it’s in the middle of and urban area containing something like 2.5 million people - something that Finningley cannot boast unfortunately, in spite of its superior infrastructure.

Pointless speculating as to what might have occurred on this occasion, but with the happy news that there were no injuries, I sincerely hope the crew are ok! Clearly the authorities will be going through all this with a fine tooth comb, including matters pertinent to LBA.

[airsound]

Pug LBA .... it’s in the middle of something like 2.5 million people - something that Finningley cannot boast unfortunately, in spite of its superior infrastructure. Possibly because Finningley (sorry, Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield, or some such snappy title) came to be the way it is because it was a cold war V-bomber station, and I guess you wouldn't want to have one of those in the middle of 2.5m people.

airsound

[phantom menace]

It looks like the wind was 070/17 gusting 30 and wet. They landed on Runway 14.

I remember when the Airtours Tristar went off the end of runway 14 in May 1985. I flew into LBA the following day in a Fokker F27 and had to land on the cross runway 28 which I see no longer exists. We had to do a water methanol takeoff to get airborne on 28.

The following is just a possibility. The Tui landed with autobrake selected. The far end was coming up a little faster than they would have liked and the handling pilot took out the autobrake to apply max manual braking. He would have needed quite a lot of right rudder to avoid weathercocking into wind. It is hard to apply full braking evenly when you have a boot full of rudder applied, especially on the pedal furthest away from you.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x407/img_1258_1f9dcdf0b51ac5f34c38da652b2a43efd2214c1e.jpg
The Tristar overrun in 1985

[NoelEvans]

Well done to Leeds Airport for getting the airport back up and running when they did, in obviously very challenging conditions. And also well done for clearing the site. When I landed there at 1515Z (the airfield re-opened at 1300Z), there was very little sign that there had even been an incident there which will be very good for the "clueless customers" or SLF!.(Unlike LHR where the wheel tracks of that B777 short of 27L were still clearly there quite some time later.)

God's own country but the devil's runway!

...

By far the BEST comment on here!!!

[timmcat]

It's just taken some digging out, but there was another, similar incident in 2005, which I witnessed (I think my description is the second post in the thread).

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/175302-a320-off-runway-lba.html?

[NoelEvans]

It's just taken some digging out, but there was another, similar incident in 2005, which I witnessed (I think my description is the second post in the thread).

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/175302-a320-off-runway-lba.html?
Not similar. That one only had the nosewheel go a yard or two onto the grass.

(It landed directly after us.)

[NoelEvans]

I was wondering when someone would mention Bristol.
...

I used to fly a schedule LBA-BRS-LBA... 'fun' both ends! (But it was on an aeroplane that could handle it best.)

[Krystal n chips]

Well done to Leeds Airport for getting the airport back up and running when they did, in obviously very challenging conditions. And also well done for clearing the site. When I landed there at 1515Z (the airfield re-opened at 1300Z), there was very little sign that there had even been an incident there which will be very good for the "clueless customers" or SLF!.(Unlike LHR where the wheel tracks of that B777 short of 27L were still clearly there quite some time later.)



By far the BEST comment on here!!!

With the above statement in mind, from an engineering perspective and thinking about the Vulcan last year, does anybody know what recovery method(s) were used please ?

[DaveReidUK]

With the above statement in mind, from an engineering perspective and thinking about the Vulcan last year, does anybody know what recovery method(s) were used please ?

I was wondering that too. There was initially talk of cranes (à la Trabzon), but I suspect that wouldn't have been accomplished so quickly. So my money would be on pulling hard, perhaps accompanied by a bit of levitation.

Either that, or Mr Hailey's bulldozer ...

[silverelise]

With the above statement in mind, from an engineering perspective and thinking about the Vulcan last year, does anybody know what recovery method(s) were used please ?

They put boards down infront of it and 3 HGV recovery trucks pulled it out of the mud on to the boards then on to the runway and then a tug took it away.

[WHBM]

They put boards down in front of it and 3 HGV recovery trucks pulled it out of the mud on to the boards then on to the runway and then a tug took it away.
The road HGV recovery contractors are past masters at how to pull heavy trucks out of all sorts of unfortunate positions in extremely short time - overturned across a motorway, down an embankment, etc. Just stuck in the mud would be one of the easier recoveries. Big-engined truck to do the pulling, ancillary truck carrying the cables, boards, tools etc. All they need is a strong point to attach to. Did the vehicles actually pull, or did they use their winches ?

[DaveReidUK]

All they need is a strong point to attach to.

Main gears presumably - trying to pull a bogged-down aircraft out by the NLG is likely to end in tears.

[silverelise]

The road HGV recovery contractors are past masters at how to pull heavy trucks out of all sorts of unfortunate positions in extremely short time - overturned across a motorway, down an embankment, etc. Just stuck in the mud would be one of the easier recoveries. Big-engined truck to do the pulling, ancillary truck carrying the cables, boards, tools etc. All they need is a strong point to attach to. Did the vehicles actually pull, or did they use their winches ?

There was a wagon and drag with a Hiab for the boards on it. Looked like each MLG had a winch cable to a recovery truck and the nosewheel had a blooming great strop to another recovery truck to pull it out.

[ShyTorque]

I used to fly a schedule LBA-BRS-LBA... 'fun' both ends! (But it was on an aeroplane that could handle it best.)

The best aircraft for LBA is a helicopter, so you can land across the runway.

As an aside, from a passenger point of view, LBA is my least favourite in U.K. Dreadful journey to even get there. DSA was my favourite and closest so it’s one extreme to the other.

[LBIA]

Some pics of yesterday recovery.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/fb_img_1697896105698_ecf21cf6ce2cafb19b545424f02237459b96b5c e.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1279x960/fb_img_1697896095110_5213227774c2cbaa0b647c84c16559f00dfe0b7 4.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1119x540/fb_img_1697883371271_7472027e77b0b1c66fdfacc4f6fe915a558fa30 0.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/fb_img_1697887625268_defc3708bd0145d7dcaaa12e7154bde9ed3e496 2.jpg

[G SXTY]

I love the ‘holier than thou’ comments from one or two professional colleagues.

In 8000 hrs of airline flying, the roughest approach I have ever had - anywhere on the planet - was into LBA. We were the last crew daft enough to land that day, and it’s right up there with Kabul & Kathmandu as a place I never, ever want to go back to.

It doesn’t matter how good you are: LBA on a nasty day could catch out the world’s greatest SkyGod.

[AdamB28]

I love the ‘holier than thou’ comments from one or two professional colleagues.

In 8000 hrs of airline flying, the roughest approach I have ever had - anywhere on the planet - was into LBA. We were the last crew daft enough to land that day, and it’s right up there with Kabul & Kathmandu as a place I never, ever want to go back to.

It doesn’t matter how good you are: LBA on a nasty day could catch out the world’s greatest SkyGod.

I feel bad for this crew.

Easy for us to sit in our armchairs and assume this and suggest that.

They probably had a matter of a few seconds to try and make the best of the situation that unfolded in front of them. And they did just that.

[kit344]

I'm not a pilot but have used LBA for 35 years, and in the autumn/winter it's an absolute bugger as a passenger. I don't recall how many go-arounds or diversions I have been subject to but it's a shocking airport for weather due to location... highest in England.

I'm glad all are okay but slightly miffed that I'm supposed to be on the 7:45 to Faro in the morning and now I guess Brum or Manchester beckon...
If only there was a longer runway available somewhere nearby.
Somewhere like Doncaster or Sheffield perhaps !

[B888]

Is the Runway at Leeds Grooved ?

[TCAS FAN]

Is the Runway at Leeds Grooved ?

According to the UK AIP, yes.

[pax britanica]

Noel E

Aren't you going to tell us what you flew on that round trip which must have been a hard days work (or part of a day)-in the winter.

PB

[pilotmike]

Does anyone have what was on the ATIS at the time the accident occurred?
The METAR

[rodan]

If only there was a longer runway available somewhere nearby.
Somewhere like Doncaster or Sheffield perhaps !

Yes, such a thing could never happen at Donny. Wibble.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x409/0_pay_arp03_doncaster_plane_closure_0f93426306eedeae46d98157 026686101c6d0344.jpg

[14stickandrudder]

I often wonder about the detrimental effect of tyre rubber (scrubbed off by landing aircraft) has on braking action especially in wet conditions. A quick look on Google earth confirms there could be significant rubber laid down in the area the aircraft came off. Researching “Airfield Rubber Removal” on Wikipedia gives some interesting reading. I wonder if LBA have a rubber removal program?

[silverelise]

Some pics on social media of an engine and one of the wheel wells.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/393313643_10160000293106452_1672422613492026934_n_7e0aee213d e43a88980e7d7feffbcd8898e2b394.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/394041849_10160000297701452_6911487613400841561_n_2703b81bae 5da32896662b0860f4ec797679d106.jpg

[H Peacock]

So did they drag it out by pulling on the nose leg?

[davidjpowell]

Yes, such a thing could never happen at Donny. Wibble.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x409/0_pay_arp03_doncaster_plane_closure_0f93426306eedeae46d98157 026686101c6d0344.jpg

To be fair the circumstances are very different. That was a pilot cocking uo his 180 and putting gear on the grass, LBA is a plane that has either been blown off the runway, or the pilot made a conscious decision to dive off the hard stuff...

[speed13ird]

or the pilot made a conscious decision to dive off the hard stuff...

Onto the grass where the RWY Condition Code is what? I doubt anyone would deliberately leave the paved surface.

[pug]

To be fair the circumstances are very different. That was a pilot cocking uo his 180 and putting gear on the grass, LBA is a plane that has either been blown off the runway, or the pilot made a conscious decision to dive off the hard stuff...

How do you know the circumstances are different? Are you the AAIB or company Safety Investigator? Nobody knows the exact cause of Fridays event yet.

There’ll have been a lot of TUI and Jet2 mates running PERF calcs with the METAR for their interest over the last couple of days, that’s for sure. Not a nice day in the office for the crew, but learnings will be made available in due course.

[NoelEvans]

I love the ‘holier than thou’ comments from one or two professional colleagues.

...

It doesn’t matter how good you are: LBA on a nasty day could catch out the world’s greatest SkyGod.
Correct!!

Noel E

Aren't you going to tell us what you flew on that round trip which must have been a hard days work (or part of a day)-in the winter.

PB
BAe J41.

Part of a day, on the back of LBA-ABZ-LBA.

(One of the fun bits was going from dispatchers with Yorkshire, to Aberdonian, to Yorkshire, to West Country accents and back within a few hours! Oh, and the weather at each end and in between could be 'fun' too!)

[DaveReidUK]

So did they drag it out by pulling on the nose leg?

Do you have a reason not to believe the previous account of how it was done?

[NoelEvans]

I wonder if there is going to be any parallel between this incident and the AirUk F27 incident at Guernsey, both having gone off the runway in very wet and windy conditions:

"Averaging wind indication systems" having replaced "traditional display equipment giving instantaneous readings" (see that AAIB Report, page 11) has limited ATC's ability to give information that could be extremely important/valuable to the pilots on the approach in such conditions. I remember having a discussion with ATCs who were unhappy with the information that they could give being limited in this way... and that was a short while before that F27 went off that runway. So, as with the F27 incident, was the wind information available to the pilots (and available to ATC to give to the pilots) the actual wind when they landed? Especially if it was really gusty? Are pilots all aware of this situation with available wind information? From that F27 AAIB report "The commander could not have known the local wind conditions affecting the aircraft at the time of touchdown". The reports given to him on the approach (the last being 19 seconds before touchdown) were all within the aeroplane's crosswind limits. However, anemometer recordings showed that the wind gusted more than the aeroplane's crosswind limits around the time of touchdown. Was it similar here? I await the AAIB Report with interest.

I was briefing a student about crosswind limits just last Tuesday...!

[N707ZS]

Do you have a reason not to believe the previous account of how it was done?
Did I once read somewhere the Boeing procedure for extracting aircraft. Does it exist?

[MerseyView]

I love the ‘holier than thou’ comments from one or two professional colleagues.

In 8000 hrs of airline flying, the roughest approach I have ever had - anywhere on the planet - was into LBA. We were the last crew daft enough to land that day, and it’s right up there with Kabul & Kathmandu as a place I never, ever want to go back to.

It doesn’t matter how good you are: LBA on a nasty day could catch out the world’s greatest SkyGod.

Mine too. I remember being switched to tower frequency and the first thing I heard, and it was the first and only time I have heard it, was the controller passing the aircraft type making the approach to the Fire Department! We landed, but I still don't know how! If I ever hear that again, I will divert.

[Flying Hi]

You couldn't make it up, could you?
Oh wait !
https://youtube.com/shorts/PeEXhFCI9qk?feature=shared

[aeromech3]

"Recommended by ICAO Annex 14, airports should develop a disabled aircraft recovery plan." As I recall the responsibility for recovery rested with the Airport and Owner, though the Airport could take the lead and in the incidents we experienced, the Fire services were initially in command, as our over eager CEO was to find out.
As part of the management of the maintenance facility at an international Airport, we were required to participate in the aircraft recovery meetings.
Lists were made of heavy crane operators in near vicinity and the nearest stored air bag systems, if none were on the aerodrome, as an example.

[hobbit1983]

I feel bad for this crew.

Easy for us to sit in our armchairs and assume this and suggest that.

They probably had a matter of a few seconds to try and make the best of the situation that unfolded in front of them. And they did just that.

This!

[reverserunlocked]

I’m guessing if you stuffed up and blocked the runway in a way that made recovery of the aircraft a lengthy process, then the airport reserves the right to do whatever it takes to get the runway open again?

Kai Tak blowing the tail off the 744 that went into drink in the 90s springs to mind. I’m sure reading somewhere if they’d not done that, it might have been salvageable as it was almost brand new.

[davidjpowell]

How do you know the circumstances are different? Are you the AAIB or company Safety Investigator? Nobody knows the exact cause of Fridays event yet.

There’ll have been a lot of TUI and Jet2 mates running PERF calcs with the METAR for their interest over the last couple of days, that’s for sure. Not a nice day in the office for the crew, but learnings will be made available in due course.

True; perhaps the Tui Pilot was trying to do a 180 turn while still proceeding down the runway at some sort of speed. Should not make assumptions.

[speed13ird]

True; perhaps the Tui Pilot was trying to do a 180 turn while still proceeding down the runway at some sort of speed.
a professional pilot would never do something so unprofessional

[RetiredBA/BY]

True; perhaps the Tui Pilot was trying to do a 180 turn while still proceeding down the runway at some sort of speed. Should not make assumptions.
What an utterly crass comment, I do despair if some of you muppets !

[EIFFS]

Not many, haven't been on here for years but this was at a former home base before I woke up and smelt the coffee and moved south.

[ZeBedie]

I can remember a 737 going off the runway at BCN because of a birdstrike to the nose leg which interfered with the steering. Who knows what happened this time.

[hans brinker]

“ The problem with heavy rain at Leeds, is that even if you can land comfortably in the 115% Factored LD, the technique for recovery from loss of directional control creates a huge decision problem: “

Not judging here but :

Part of the FAA SAFO 19003 States :-
Subject: Turbojet Braking Performance on Wet Runways.
Purpose: This SAFO cancels and replaces SAFO 15009 and warns airplane operators and pilots that the
advisory data for wet runway landings may not provide a safe stopping margin especially in conditions of
Moderate or Heavy Rain.
Background: Landing overruns that occur on wet runways typically involve multiple contributing factors
such as long touchdown, improper use of deceleration devices, tailwind and less available friction than
expected. Several recent runway-landing incidents/accidents have raised concerns with wet runway
stopping performance assumptions. Analysis of the stopping data from these incidents/accidents indicates
the braking coefficient of friction in each case was significantly lower than expected for a wet runway as
defined by Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 25 § Section 25.109 and Advisory
Circular (AC) 25-7D methods.
These incidents/accidents occurred on both grooved and un-grooved runways. The data indicates that
applying a 15% safety margin to wet runway time-of-arrival advisory data, as recommended by
SAFO 19001 (or current guidance), may be inadequate in certain wet runway conditions. Takeoff and
Landing Performance Assessment (TALPA) procedures implemented by the FAA on October 1, 2016,
added new insight as to how flightcrews can evaluate runway braking performance prior to landing.
TALPA defines WET as “Includes damp and 1/8-inch depth or less of water,” while CONTAMINATED is
“greater than 1/8-inch of water.
”
Discussion: These overruns have occurred on grooved and smooth runways during periods of moderate to
heavy rain. Analysis of these incidents/accidents indicates that the braking coefficient of friction in each
case was significantly lower than expected, and that 30 to 40 percent of additional stopping distance may
be required if the runway transitions from wet to contaminated based on the rainfall intensity or reported
water contamination (greater than 1/8-inch depth). For the operational in-flight landing assessment,
determining whether the runway is wet or potentially contaminated is the pilot’s responsibility.
The FAA recommends that airports report “Wet” conditions. However, airports are not required to report
when a runway is only wet. Further, an airport may not be able to generate a Field Condition NOTAM
(FICON) for sudden rain showers that result in water on the runway more than 1/8 of an inch in depth
(contaminated). Rainfall intensity may be the only indication available to the pilot that the water depth
present on the runway may be excessive. The 1/8-inch threshold that separates a wet runway with a
RWYCC of 5 from runway contaminated with water depth greater than 1/8-inch a RWYCC of 2 is based
on possibility of dynamic hydroplaning. This can be especially true in moderate rain if the runway is not
properly crowned, grooved, constructed with a porous friction course (PFC) overlay, or when water run-
off becomes overwhelmed. During heavy rain events, this may be true even on a properly maintained
grooved or PFC runway.
The TALPA RCAM recommends using landing performance data associated with medium to poor
braking or RwyCC of 2, if greater than 1/8-inch of water is anticipated to be on the runway. When
planning to land on a smooth runway under conditions of moderate or heavy rain, or when landing on a
grooved or PFC runway under heavy rain, pilots should consider that the surface may be contaminated
with water at depth greater than 1/8 inch and adjust their landing distance assessment accordingly.
Pilots should use all available resources to determine what condition they may expect upon landing to
include Air Traffic Control (ATC), FICONs (as some airports do report Wet conditions), flight
visibility, and/or onboard weather radar.

sorry, but what does FAA stand for?

[hans brinker]

Not the only city like that. When Bristol chose a site for its airport it picked Lulsgate Bottom, an airport developed during the war to teach instrument flying largely because of its poor weather record. By coincidence, or maybe not, it too had traffic lights (strictly speaking, more like level crossing light) on a road which passed close to one end of the runway back in the 70s for a good few years. I worked there for a while and remember that it could be a bit embarrassing is you forgot to let the traffic go wafter the aircraft had done its thing.

Valladolid airport.... Located a few miles away in a little town called Villanubla.
(Cloudy Town) Probably should have said that aloud a few times before locating the airport there.

[B888]

sorry, but what does FAA stand for?

FAA :
Federal Aviation Administration ( Regulator for USA)

[BSD]

I very much subscribe to the "there but for the grace of God, go I" theory. I feel for the crew, who as others have pointed out, hadn't started the day planning an excursion snd were just caught out.

However, i wonder if the "aft-loading" of the aeroplane may have been a factor, which worked against them.

If the CofG is deliberately aft (holds 3 & 4 fllled in an attempt to reduce cruise trim drag), does that reduce the nose wheels ability to counter the weather cocking tendency on the runway?

An aft CofG, an upslope on the runway (a feature of that runway at LBA) thereby further unweighting the nosewheel, the 737's very tall fin and rudder may have made the gusty conditions worse and hence reduce steering ability. And, with speed reducing, diminishing rudder/fin effectiveness the crew were not well placed.

Also, the 737's CofG can move aft for landing compared to takeoff under some fuel load combinations.

As far as I'm aware, Tui had such a policy (of aft loading) which, if still being followed, may have worked against their crew in this case.

Now, my fellow armchair experts, and Monday morning quartebacks, what say you?

[Trossie]

I can remember a 737 going off the runway at BCN because of a birdstrike to the nose leg which interfered with the steering. Who knows what happened this time.
Very unlikely that any birds were flying at the time with that weather!

[Uplinker]

Seeing several comments about 115% LDR: The factor for wet runways for dispatch is 1.92, (FAA and EASA). Correct me if I am wrong, but the 1.15 factor is only for in-flight calculations, and emergencies, is it not ?

I don't have access to a Boeing landing distance calculator - is a wet Leeds runway with significant crosswind and a 1.92 factor long enough for a 738 dispatch ?

Perhaps with somewhere like Leeds, EGNM, where you have:-

Out of wind runway, leading to significant crosswinds, AND

Significantly humped runway surface, AND

Challenging turbulent wind conditions common on approach. AND

High, exposed position, subject to more common and more intense adverse weather conditions, AND

A non grooved runway surface,

........Then perhaps a factor larger than 1.15 should be mandated ? (Especially when the visibility is also close to the limits.)


I operated into Leeds in Bombardier Dash-8s, back in the day. Plenty of ALD for those smaller craft, but it was usually very erm........exciting, even so !!

[TCAS FAN]

Seeing several comments about 115% LDR: The factor for wet runways for dispatch is 1.92, (FAA and EASA). Correct me if I am wrong, but the 1.15 factor is only for in-flight calculations, and emergencies, is it not ?
................................
A non grooved runway surface,
................


According to the current UK AIP the runway is grooved, may not have been in your day.

[davidjpowell]

a professional pilot would never do something so unprofessional

I quite agree. My comment was in reply to Pug who was suggesting this was very similar to an incident involving a 747 at DSA where a 747 driver miscalculated doing a 180...

Whatever the cause was, I don't think it's the pilot trying to do a 180...

[speed13ird]

Very unlikely that any birds were flying at the time with that weather!
The bird strike occurred on departure

[Jonty]

I do wonder if this runway was contaminated rather than just wet.

[pug]

I quite agree. My comment was in reply to Pug who was suggesting this was very similar to an incident involving a 747 at DSA where a 747 driver miscalculated doing a 180...

Whatever the cause was, I don't think it's the pilot trying to do a 180...

I quite clearly did not suggest that. I said we do not know the cause of this incident. Suggest you re-read the thread, and maybe the room too whilst you’re at it.

[Helen49]

Just for everybody's information, there were NEVER any traffic lights on the main road at Leeds Bradford. Reduced declared distances took care of the road obstacle.

[Chesty Morgan]

a professional pilot would never do something so unprofessional
Unlike driving off the end of NCL's runway and being a gnat's cock away from leaving the tarmac altogether. No, nothing so unprofessional would ever happen...

[Trossie]

I dislike all the "smart Alecs" who have 'something to say'.

THAT is really unprofessional.

[Uplinker]

According to the current UK AIP the runway is grooved, may not have been in your day.

:ok: My bad.

[Fursty Ferret]

However, i wonder if the "aft-loading" of the aeroplane may have been a factor, which worked against them.

Unlikely, I think, as both spoilers and brakes will provide a good load on the nose gear.

[Mr Good Cat]

Seeing several comments about 115% LDR: The factor for wet runways for dispatch is 1.92, (FAA and EASA). Correct me if I am wrong, but the 1.15 factor is only for in-flight calculations, and emergencies, is it not ?

I don't have access to a Boeing landing distance calculator - is a wet Leeds runway with significant crosswind and a 1.92 factor long enough for a 738 dispatch ?



192% dispatch limitations are for planning though, using max manual braking without reverse. Once in flight, you can land using your preferred auto brake setting if it meets the 115%. I'm not sure of the TUI 737 performance on the day as I fly an Airbus.

As has been mentioned, the condition of the runway may well have reported as wet, but with a higher level of contamination. The only requirement (as far as I'm aware of TUI's policies) is to make a MED/POOR calculation if heavy rain is reported. Consistent moderate rain that doesn't drain from the runway in sufficient time could reduce the BA I guess?

It's also worth mentioning Boeing's interpretation of crosswind limits - something along the lines of steady wind affects the limit but gusts only increase the workload. The NTSB's investigation of the B737-500 excursion of Continental at Denver should have dispelled that myth, but seems nothing has changed! I'll certainly keep this incident in mind now.

[midnight cruiser]

Of course, the temptation is to add extra knots onto the VApp in windy, gusty crosswind conditions, but unless there is a headwind component, there shouldn't be any addition

[Mr Good Cat]

Of course, the temptation is to add extra knots onto the VApp in windy, gusty crosswind conditions, but unless there is a headwind component, there shouldn't be any addition. I wonder what the speed at threshold and touchdown was, and indeed touchdown point.

But they didn't overrun, they departed the edge. And I don't think it was deliberately done to aid stopping.

[midnight cruiser]

Yes, probably. That relates to the comments above, not necessarily to this incident. The other thing of course, is "fly" the aeroplane, right until its stopped, and don't let the wind get under the upwind wing, or it'll get very squirrelly. Again, not necessarily wrt this incident (although I vaguely recall in the press, an eyewitness comment that it looked like a hard landing, and the wings were not level, or something to that effect.)

[42go]

In a wind from the left the veering may moderate the crosswind component. Sounds like a load of coriolis to me :-)

[Discorde]

You may be right! I've deleted the post you quoted. Internet research does not strongly support the veering of increased gusts theory.

[Chesty Morgan]

I dislike all the "smart Alecs" who have 'something to say'.

THAT is really unprofessional.
It's not really though is it. None of us are commenting in a professional capacity.

[ehwatezedoing]

I’m guessing if you stuffed up and blocked the runway in a way that made recovery of the aircraft a lengthy process, then the airport reserves the right to do whatever it takes to get the runway open again?

Kai Tak blowing the tail off the 744 that went into drink in the 90s springs to mind. I’m sure reading somewhere if they’d not done that, it might have been salvageable as it was almost brand new.
A few years ago in Abuja, Nigeria they gave us one hour to remove our aircraft (DC3T) Blocking a taxiway with a flat tyre otherwise they would, Quote: "Bulldoze it away!"

So here you go :p

(It was moved in time)

[reverserunlocked]

A few years ago in Abuja, Nigeria they gave us one hour to remove our aircraft (DC3T) Blocking a taxiway with a flat tyre otherwise they would, Quote: "Bulldoze it away!"

So here you go :p

(It was moved in time)

Thankfully LBA gave TUI a bit longer than that to move their 738 but it’s an interesting one. I guess if you’ve really stuffed it up and wrecked the airframe/engines then it doesn’t really matter if you get the bulldozer out.

[DaveReidUK]

Thankfully LBA gave TUI a bit longer than that to move their 738 but it’s an interesting one. I guess if you’ve really stuffed it up and wrecked the airframe/engines then it doesn’t really matter if you get the bulldozer out.

Bulldozing a 737 would be rather more of a deal than shifting a DC-3. :O

Though it didn't stop Arthur Hailey's airport manager from threatening to do the same to a (IIRC) 707, before Joe P stepped in and saved the day. As engineers often do, and not just in films. :O

[bentley01]

Of course, the temptation is to add extra knots onto the VApp in windy, gusty crosswind conditions, but unless there is a headwind component, there shouldn't be any addition

Not true 1/2 the headwind and all of the gust factor upto +15 or placard-5. So you could have + 15 added to VREF on a gusty day.

[Piltdown Man]

Leeds is not your average airport. I regularly used to operate into LBA and was based there for a few years. It points the wrong way, it’s high up, the runway surface is rough as guts and the alleged runway gradients don’t really match reality. Combine that lot with the local topology which means that whenever there is any wind it’s horrible. This airfield was probably the most difficult I’ve flown into (inc. LCY & FLR). I was very fortunate that the aircraft I flew into LBA were easy to fly and handle on the ground. They also didn’t require much runway. The Jet 2 and Ryanair crews used to make landing there look simple although they did use most of the runway (why waste it) to rollout. But even these guys had to work hard on windy days (which invariably meant gusty crosswinds and turbulence.

What really surprises me about LBA is why there haven’t been more near misses and runway excursions. My suggestion would be build over the place and move it lock, stock and barrel to either Finningley or somewhere flat on the Vale of York that’s flat and points the right way. Maybe somewhere with proper road and rail connections, like a real transport hub?

[midnight cruiser]

Not true 1/2 the headwind and all of the gust factor upto +15 or placard-5. So you could have + 15 added to VREF on a gusty day. Oh dear!

Crosswind, not headwind! If there's no head component, (90° across), then i you should NOT be adding an approach speed wind additive, and if you do, you are operating completely outside your performance calculation and risk an overrun (you can manually increase from the +5kt on the Boeing opt vref entry if you insist on adding speed anyway, but even that, I think it's supposed to be washed off prior to touchdown, from memory).

[pug]

What really surprises me about LBA is why there haven’t been more near misses and runway excursions. My suggestion would be build over the place and move it lock, stock and barrel to either Finningley or somewhere flat on the Vale of York that’s flat and points the right way. Maybe somewhere with proper road and rail connections, like a real transport hub?

Such a solution would make far too much sense Piltdown Man. Afraid a one Yorkshire airport was mooted in the 60’s during the motorway building phase and never stuck. Then the attempt at DSA by the private sector also didn’t work, jury still out whether it will return but last time the airlines didn’t buy in for the most part. As West Yorkshire is one of the country’s most densely populated conurbations, and its topography doesn’t exactly lend itself to airport development, I think we’re stuck with what we have. Will be interested whether the AAIB, when it publishes its report, will have anything to say about LBA and its unsuitability to commercial aviation.

[DaveReidUK]

Will be interested whether the AAIB, when it publishes its report, will have anything to say about LBA and its unsuitability to commercial aviation.

I'd be surprised - the AAIB knows which side its bread is buttered on, particularly now with a military man at the helm.

Expect any references to the challenges of operating at LBA to be very oblique.

[Gordomac]

Retired over a decade ago and even forgetting to match me socks these days , B o r t , who "categorized" airfields in the past ? Was it the UK CAA, Aerad/Jep etc.. I seem to recall Cat A meant you just went in & out without much bother. Cat B required a full crew brief and Cat C required special training, airfield visit plus check ride.

Places like Kathmandu, HK (in the really old days) etc were Cat C.

Leeds should have been Cat C these days given the foregoing discussion and history.

My co-jo days on Viscounts were tough enough and Captains giving the inbound leg away, quite rare, until they got to know you,. Oh, AND liked you. (I hardly ever got an inbound leg. Actually, even outbound was rare......Mmmmmmmmmm.........

My fave employer required verbal briefing on all airfields but moderated the content depending on degree of difficulty.. Cat C was no messing,like Funchal.

Fave FO was ex RAF LIghtenings. Listened to me going on & on about a CAT A place and when I finished with "Any Questions", exhausted, he just offered;" Oh, blimey, can't we just go in and Land ?" - !

Ok, decided not to wear any socks today.

[OTA Warrior]

Oh dear!

Crosswind, not headwind! If there's no head component, (90° across), then i you should NOT be adding an approach speed wind additive, and if you do, you are operating completely outside your performance calculation and risk an overrun (you can manually increase from the +5kt on the Boeing opt vref entry if you insist on adding speed anyway, but even that, I think it's supposed to be washed off prior to touchdown, from memory).

Incorrect. FCTM clearly states add all gust factor up to 15 knots for a gusty cross wind. Maintained until touchdown.

[punkalouver]

Incorrect. FCTM clearly states add all gust factor up to 15 knots for a gusty cross wind. Maintained until touchdown.

One needs to ask themselves why an increase in speed is being added for gusts and why you would suddenly not do it just because it is a cross wind. Do those variations in airspeed suddenly stop happening? As for it being a very challenging airport, one might want to plan in advance to lower their own personal limits at this location(asuming they are aware of it's difficulty in advance). Heavy rain and strong crosswind.....that's an issue at any airport.

[Discorde]

The add-ons are designed to counter horizontal windshear effects (wind strength decreasing as the ground is neared) and apply only to headwind component to counter loss of lift resulting from slow change to 'inertial' groundspeed.

My co-jo days on Viscounts were tough enough and Captains giving the inbound leg away, quite rare, until they got to know you,. Oh, AND liked you. (I hardly ever got an inbound leg. Actually, even outbound was rare......Mmmmmmmmmm.........

In the company I worked for landings on the unlengthened runway were 'captains only'. So once in the LHS your first LBA landing was your first ever as handler.

Exciting times!

[SpamCanDriver]

Interesting to see different interpretations of the application of Gust additives.

From the FCTM
"Add 1/2 of the reported steady headwind component plus the ​​​​​​full Gust increment above the steady wind to the reference speed"

"1/2 half of the reported steady headwind component can be estimated by using 50% for a direct headwind, 35% for a 45⁰ crosswind, zero for a direct crosswind"

For those saying you shouldn't use the Gust correction for a 90⁰ gusty crosswind, tell us where that is mentioned in the FCTM?

And how would apply corrections in the following scenarios

Rwy 36
Wind 089/10G20
&
​Wind 090/10G20

[bobradamus]

Any news on repairs to TAWD?

[Jump Complete]

As of the early hours of Saturday morning, it’s sitting on a stand at LBA awaiting a double engine change. Engineer I was talking to said there’s too much grit and stones to wash then out (Boeings suggestion, apparently) without risking damage.

[bobradamus]

As of the early hours of Saturday morning, it’s sitting on a stand at LBA awaiting a double engine change. Engineer I was talking to said there’s too much grit and stones to wash then out (Boeings suggestion, apparently) without risking damage.
haha - amazing, thanks!

[DaveReidUK]

haha - amazing, thanks!

On the contrary, I'd have said (after seeing the photos) that the need to change both engines was entirely unsurprising.

[bobradamus]

On the contrary, I'd have said (after seeing the photos) that the need to change both engines was entirely unsurprising.
Absolutely!

[midnight cruiser]

The add-ons are designed to counter horizontal windshear effects (wind strength decreasing as the ground is neared) and apply only to headwind component to counter loss of lift resulting from slow change to 'inertial' groundspeed.! Thank you; that's certainly my interpretation, and though it could be interpreted either way, logically a perpendicular gust or ground effect variation in windspeed is not going to affect the IAS, so there shouldn't be an addition. (In practice, of course a couple of knots for mum, or more empirically, a knot or three for the sin of the crab angle, same thing. but ref+ 15, fluctuating+20 and you're in trouble on a short wet runway with no head component..

[Krystal n chips]

On the contrary, I'd have said (after seeing the photos) that the need to change both engines was entirely unsurprising.

Quite so. You wouldn't even begin to think of running an engine with that amount of debris shown plus whatever may have been ingested before shut down.

Which leaves the u/c. Given you can't jack the aircraft outside presumably a gear down and locked one flight only to base where this can be accomplished for retraction checks should also be unsurprising ....probably won't stop reggie spotter ( c/o Uncle Roger) posting on YT screaming about "crashed jet landing gear doesn't retract !" however,

[dixi188]

Who said you can't jack an aircraft outside? (Not wise if it's likely to be windy). However I expect there will be a gear down ferry to a maintenance base.

[Jump Complete]

I was told it was due a C Check this week, somewhere abroad, but will now stay in the UK, so I guess a gear down ferry fits with that.

[DaveReidUK]

Who said you can't jack an aircraft outside? (Not wise if it's likely to be windy). However I expect there will be a gear down ferry to a maintenance base.

Some airlines forbid it, some don't, I suppose depends on their safety standards.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x315/china_southern_777_jacked_up_outside_65e1842cc2f9938b77acec8 6e730aeddc0403bb3.jpg

I wouldn't be walking underneath that one. :O

[bentley01]

Thank you; that's certainly my interpretation, and though it could be interpreted either way, logically a perpendicular gust or ground effect variation in windspeed is not going to affect the IAS, so there shouldn't be an addition. (In practice, of course a couple of knots for mum, or more empirically, a knot or three for the sin of the crab angle, same thing. but ref+ 15, fluctuating+20 and you're in trouble on a short wet runway with no head component..


Boeing give the same advice as we used to give as an aircraft manufacturer. You can have zero headwind component but a gust factor addition. They even have a table that I was going to post but I am unable to until I reach 8 forum posts. It gives an example of runway 36 and a wind of 090 15 gusting 25 and shows an approach speed of VREF+10. Hope this helps.

[Discorde]

Thanks bentley01. The guidance we were given in the past has perhaps been superseded. The complication is that the higher speed may cause floating during the flare, which will prolong exposure to the crosswind and increase the LDR - critical on a short runway.

[bentley01]

I agree particularly when the guidelines state maintain the gust factor addition until touchdown. I can’t speak for Boeing test procedures but when I was involved in performance testing to revise AFM figures for short runways in tropical conditions we set a minimum VREF - speed which was the minimum touchdown speed which still provided tailstrike protection and also guidelines on the maximum touchdown speed in relation to VREF. The figures work until combined with a few extra knots, 60 ft over the threshold and a prolonged flare without maximum braking until too late. Late applications of lift dumping devices and reverse have a huge impact as well.

[tdracer]

Who said you can't jack an aircraft outside? (Not wise if it's likely to be windy). However I expect there will be a gear down ferry to a maintenance base.
That is (or at least used to be) a regular occurrence on the Boeing Flightline in Everett.
Although it can still end it tears - about 30 years ago we had a big windstorm move through the area (gusts near 100 mph) - did lots of damage, including blowing an aircraft on the Boeing Flightline off its jacks.
Reportedly instructions had been issued to de-jack the aircraft before the storm hit, but someone dropped the ball and it didn't happen :ugh:

[punkalouver]

That is (or at least used to be) a regular occurrence on the Boeing Flightline in Everett.
Although it can still end it tears - about 30 years ago we had a big windstorm move through the area (gusts near 100 mph) - did lots of damage, including blowing an aircraft on the Boeing Flightline off its jacks.
Reportedly instructions had been issued to de-jack the aircraft before the storm hit, but someone dropped the ball and it didn't happen :ugh:

Any Pics TD?

It is quite amazing sometimes to hear things like this story and to not had someone follow through to make sure it is being done. Sometimes, you have to do things yourself(in terms of making sure precautions are taken) as no one else will. A local warbird place on occasion puts a bunch of their extremely expensive aircraft out on the ramp. Yet no one seems to keep an eye on the weather even though it is thunderstorm season. More than once, I have had to let them know that the aircraft may get very wet(or worse) as I was the only one bothering to check the weather radar.

[LBIA]

The TUi Boeing 737-800, G-TAWD is flight planned to leave Leeds at 17:00 as TOM958P heading out to Warsaw.

[jethro15]

The TUi Boeing 737-800, G-TAWD is flight planned to leave Leeds at 17:00 as TOM958P heading out to Warsaw.
​​​​​​​Doesn't appear to have happened.

[LBIA]

Yeap it's still at LBA on stand 15,. They did do some engines runs earlier this afternoon though..
​​​​​​
​

[Trossie]

Now 1000Z on 31 October.

[Jonty]

Have they changed the engines?

[Uplinker]

I hope they got all the gravel and xxxx out of the main wheel bay - don't want a stone jamming the mechanical flight control runs or autopilot mechanisms.

[SWBKCB]

Well it's on its way now!

[silverelise]

Does anyone know the logisitcs for the engine replacement? Did they swap in a couple of engines from something already in maintenance or have they had to obtain two new/used replacements ?

[OwnNav]

On the ground in WAW now.

[Trossie]

I was told it was due a C Check this week, somewhere abroad, but will now stay in the UK, so I guess a gear down ferry fits with that.
FL410 at 470kts groundspeed didn't look much like a "gear down ferry"!

Good to see an aeroplane (any aeroplane!) flying again.

[EmmaMac]

For a non-professional, for pilots who have this kind of non-standard landing, is there any procedure that would happen after it? Like a debrief or assessment?

[Jump Complete]

FL410 at 470kts groundspeed didn't look much like a "gear down ferry"!

Good to see an aeroplane (any aeroplane!) flying again.

That was an assumption based on the line engineer we handed our aircraft over to in the early hours of Saturday morning saying he thought it was now going to Luton (I think he said) rather than Poland. Perhaps they decided it was safe to to raise the gear and take it that far after all.

[DaveReidUK]

Does anyone know the logisitcs for the engine replacement? Did they swap in a couple of engines from something already in maintenance or have they had to obtain two new/used replacements ?

Plenty of spare CFM56s knocking around, I doubt they had any problem sourcing a pair.

[beamer]

To reply to EmmaMac and her query regarding the ramifications to the two pilots involved.

Putting aside for a moment this particular incident, it very much depends upon the culture of the airline involved. There is an old adage of ‘guilty until proved innocent’ in the airline industry and it is common practice to suspend pilots whilst enquiries are made and interviews carried out. When pilots simply get caught out by a combination of circumstances, they will be back on line pretty quickly with maybe a quick session in the sim. If it is a matter of flagrant abuse of rules then things become more difficult with possible disciplinary proceedings at which point Union/Legal representation may be required. Obviously there are myriad situations between these two quoted examples. I once worked for an airline which had a very robust safety culture bordering on fear which after a merger became more relaxed and more productive for management and pilots alike.

Anyone who has operated into LBA will know that weather conditions can make it one of the more challenging airfields in the UK. Other than what I have read elsewhere regarding the weather on the day, I have no idea as to the exact circumstances and as such I will not speculate as to the cause of the incident.

[alfaman]

I'm not sure the "guilty until proven innocent" applies in the UK - suspension isn't about guilt or otherwise, it's to ensure there's a proper investigation to establish what happened & why, & to ensure they have time to recover from the shock & trauma of it, & are fit to return to duty. If there are failings in the way the crew operated the aircraft, that may be addressed with retraining; if it's a technical issue, then that's no reflection on them, anyway.

[beamer]

I'm not sure the "guilty until proven innocent" applies in the UK - suspension isn't about guilt or otherwise, it's to ensure there's a proper investigation to establish what happened & why, & to ensure they have time to recover from the shock & trauma of it, & are fit to return to duty. If there are failings in the way the crew operated the aircraft, that may be addressed with retraining; if it's a technical issue, then that's no reflection on them, anyway.

In theory you are quite correct but that is why I used the term ‘adage’. In my experience, both Civil and Military, pilots and other aircrew, as appropriate, will invariably feel that they are required to prove their innocence as the Operators and Manufacturers will move heaven and earth to prove that their organisation or product was not at fault.

[YRP]

So what happens to the incident engines after something like this? Are they cleaned out and overhauled and put back into service? Or will they be scrapped?

Given the amount of stuff, gravel or what, that went in with the engines running, there must be lots of damage / nicks to fan blades and things.

That second photo of the wheel well (Post 143 (https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/394041849_10160000297701452_6911487613400841561_n_2703b81bae 5da32896662b0860f4ec797679d106.jpg)) looks like some post-apocalyptic art of abandoned equipment that's been left for decades!

[DuncanDoenitz]

Scrapped? Extremely unlikely.

Like any other piece of equipment; dismantled to its constituent parts, each one cleaned, inspected to established criteria, repaired or replaced as necessary. Then rebuild.

With the amount of dirt and rubbish seen on the photos there is a high probabiity of damage to the later compressor stages, and contamination of primary and secondary air paths.

[Flying Hi]

Scrapped? Extremely unlikely.

Like any other piece of equipment; dismantled to its constituent parts, each one cleaned, inspected to established criteria, repaired or replaced as necessary. Then rebuild.

With the amount of dirt and rubbish seen on the photos there is a high probabiity of damage to the later compressor stages, and contamination of primary and secondary air paths.
Can't have been as bad as it looks. Remember it flew out just a few days later.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Can't have been as bad as it looks. Remember it flew out just a few days later.
My understanding is that the engines were replaced, and I responded to YRP's question on that basis. In which case, however bad the engine damage, it's in a container on its way to an overhaul shop and becomes someone else's problem.

[Airbanda]

Replacement engines were fitted along with wheels/tyres and probably brakes. There are pictures on LBA enthusiasts pages of the work being carried out including the engines under wrappings.

Once they're back at the workshop then there will be a process of examination and replacement of damaged parts. Engines around the world suffer foreign object damage on a daily basis and the drill for dealing with them will be well rehearsed.

[DaveReidUK]

Can't have been as bad as it looks. Remember it flew out just a few days later.

Maybe better to wait and see how much longer it spends at WAW before drawing any conclusions about how much work needs to be done.

[WillieKingAir]

Because Peel didn't ever intend to make Doncaster work as an airport. They only bought it as a cheap piece of land, got a local grant to build a nice new access link to the motorway and suppressed any chance of commercial aviation success by charging over the odds for any airline operators that tried it. Then they could 'justify' closing it and turning it into a nice profitable business park.

[Doors to Automatic]

Does anyone heard anything about what actually happened? Was it a mechanical failure causing loss of directional control at the end of the landing run?

[DaveReidUK]

Does anyone heard anything about what actually happened? Was it a mechanical failure causing loss of directional control at the end of the landing run?

Loss of directional control: clearly, yes
Mechanical failure: unlikely

[MAC 40612]

One thing that has not been mentioned anywhere in the thread [that I've noticed anyway] is that the 'crash recovery team' of ground engineers that facilitated getting this aircraft out at LBA were a British Airways team of crash recovery engineers that had travelled up from London on the day of the incident by road with the required equipment to get the aircraft out.

[Krystal n chips]

One thing that has not been mentioned anywhere in the thread [that I've noticed anyway] is that the 'crash recovery team' of ground engineers that facilitated getting this aircraft out at LBA were a British Airways team of crash recovery engineers that had travelled up from London on the day of the incident by road with the required equipment to get the aircraft out.

Did they manage a two line entry in "Pravda", hidden in the adverts ?.

[MAC 40612]

Did they manage a two line entry in "Pravda", hidden in the adverts ?.

No, not even that. Given that all the members of the BA crash team are volunteers, who are part of the regular ground engineering team who undergo training on the various equipment/techniques required to recover aircraft, get no 'call-out' money for attending such incidents what they did 'get' was in my view [other views may differ ;)] an insult...a nomination for a 'bronze' in house award....bronze being the lowest category and to put it into perspective, if you get nominated for such bronze awards you can choose a bronze level 'prize' an example in that category being a mobile phone charging lead!
Yes, BA highly regard their engineers :mad:

[NoelEvans]

One thing that has not been mentioned anywhere in the thread [that I've noticed anyway] is that the 'crash recovery team' of ground engineers that facilitated getting this aircraft out at LBA were a British Airways team of crash recovery engineers that had travelled up from London on the day of the incident by road with the required equipment to get the aircraft out.Well done to that team for such a very good job done so quickly in clearly difficult conditions. That the aeroplane flew, 10 days later, across Europe (reported at FL400+ and 400+somethingKts groundspeed) shows how carefully it had been done. I landed there twice a little over 24hrs after that unfortunate incident and the fact that there were very few physical signs of it shows what a very good job was done by all involved.

(I hope that all involved in the incident are doing OK.)

[Airbanda]

Does anyone heard anything about what actually happened? Was it a mechanical failure causing loss of directional control at the end of the landing run?

Almost certainly a wind gust that turned the a/c into a weather vane.

ISTR an Aer Lingus Fokker 50 going off piste at LBA in similar conditions aeons ago. Taxiing for take off via the N/S taxiway on the line of the old 01/19 runway when it weathercocked into wind.