EBA negotiations...a hypothetical?

[TrashDash]

Imagine an EBA negotiation situation where a long standing member is voted off the committee because the pilot group believes they are out of touch. Then due to pilots moving on to other airlines, spots open up and this pilot is now back on the committee. Then this pilot suddenly becomes the lead negotiator that allegedly no one wanted.

Then imagine if a committee was to conduct negotiations but doesnt provide specific details to the pilot group because they dont want to give anything away to the company. It would be crazy right if they didnt ask the group what they wanted, but instead pushed for changes that could potentially benefit an individual's rank and base the most?

imagine coming to an agreement with the company that means 2am reserves are now a thing, but knowing you will never have to fly that early because your base doesn't operate those flights.

Imagine accepting a duty hours deal that doesn't benefit most bases, but benefits your own base because you historically get more trips per roster. Imagine giving up a 50% increase to the duty hour allowance just so you can get paid while sleeping in a hotel (while most bases do day trips or minimum rest overnights).

Imagine selling out the unborn with three junior FO scales to help fund a 15 year captain scale.

Imagine supporting a type freeze so pilots wont be able to change bases.

Imagine supporting a deal that is going to help the company win the war against those pesky WA pilots.

[HappyBandit]

Imagine an EBA negotiation situation where a long standing member is voted off the committee because the pilot group believes they are out of touch. Then due to pilots moving on to other airlines, spots open up and this pilot is now back on the committee. Then this pilot suddenly becomes the lead negotiator that no one wanted.

Then imagine if this pilot conducts negotiations but doesnt provide specific details to the pilot group because they dont want to give anything away to the company. It would be crazy right if they didnt ask the group what they wanted, but instead pushed for changes that benefit their rank and base?

imagine coming to an agreement with the company that means 2am reserves are now a thing, but knowing you will never have to fly that early because your base doesn't operate those flights.

Imagine accepting a duty hours deal that doesn't benefit most bases, but benefits your own base because you historically get more trips per roster. Imagine giving up a 50% increase to the duty hour allowance just so you can get paid while sleeping in a hotel (while most bases do day trips or minimum rest overnights).

Imagine selling out the unborn with three junior FO scales to help fund a 15 year captain scale.

Imagine supporting a type freeze so pilots wont be able to change bases.

Imagine supporting a deal that is going to help the company win the war against those pesky WA pilots.

Are you sure its a hypothetical? Or a rhetorical?

[neville_nobody]

Well it proves the old adage that the world is run by those who turn up.

Rather than complain on here why don’t you get on committee and stop it happening in the first place.

End of the day just vote no

[dragon man]

Sounds like similar things that happened with Qantas long haul pilots where said pilot gets a job negotiating for the company.

[Lapon]

As scummy and believable as it that sounds, Its ultimately up to the pilot group to vote for or against anything that gets negotiated.

[KRUSTY 34]

As scummy and believable as it that sounds, Its ultimately up to the pilot group to vote for or against anything that gets negotiated.

Yup.

You get the Government, or in this case, the EBA you deserve.

[tliyatlplledqosgki]

The word of the day is: Solidarity

Pay no mind to these naysayers TrashDash - Sunnie's and Eastern's negotiators have overpromised and underdelivered.
As long as 51% of the pilot body don't have rocks for brains you'll have the chance to take the PIA you've always wanted.

Toodle pip!

[CaptainInsaneO]

The majority of the group votes on the EBA, not one person. Sounds like someone has an axe to grind and an anonymous post here is best thing they could think of..

[TrashDash]

Time to end the old boys club. Imagine belittling FOs who can barely pay their mortgage not to take call ins. Easy to say when you've been on a captain salary for decades, must be good to dial in for pilot updates from overseas trips.

The argument was better FO pay was needed to attract and retain, but then sold them out to fund a higher Captain scale. Multiple FO pay scales just creates more division and anger.

[high_flyer747]

Makes you wonder is Qantas the place to be….

[Ollie Onion]

No matter what you think of the negotiators, it is impossible for them to do what you say, they can put forward a new EBA following the process you say but guess what? The pilot body can just vote no! Keep voting No until the pilot body gets what they want, the negotiators can’t just do nasty little back room deals.

[Irritable Poultry]

Hi TrashDash

Can I suggest you actually talk to someone on the negotiating team as your post is full of inaccuracies.
Rumours and gossip do not serve anyone well.

[Ghostrider94]

I signed the contract for the shiny turboprop, with a training bond to start in 6 weeks. Now I have a offer for a shiny jet. Question is if I haven't started yet with the shiny turboprop, can I start on the shiny jet without paying the bond, for the shiny turboprop?

[hillbillybob]

looks pretty accurate and if the council/neg team want to rebut then you know where the reply button is

[Lapon]

Question is if I haven't started yet with the shiny turboprop, can I start on the shiny jet without paying the bond, for the shiny turboprop?

Yes.

At least with every operator I've been involved in that bonds for training. Afterall, you haven't received any training anyway.

[Aimpoint]

Hi TrashDash

Can I suggest you actually talk to someone on the negotiating team as your post is full of inaccuracies.
Rumours and gossip do not serve anyone well.

Judging by the crew room discussions and the group chats, memes and videos doing the rounds the last few days, I'd suggest it's actually the union and negotiating team that need to talk to the pilot group.

The view out there is you have not actually listened to what the pilot group wants and you act like you know what's best for all of us. You had one roadshow months ago that didn't cover the specifics of the in-principle deal you've done. You're going to struggle to get this one voted up.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1079x614/screenshot_20231022_082256_gallery_a84cb1058cb6b20bae3179999 b9ae628d856b9d9.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1079x618/screenshot_20231022_082320_gallery_fdd0e2f8e395c63907479d50f 25feff09e6092c6.jpg
Screenshots of one of the videos doing the rounds.

[hillbillybob]

They will steadfastly refuse to engage on any form of social media while running around and blaming it for rumours and misinformation

[Ollie Onion]

Easy, vote no.

[okrookbutnottoook]

If anyone is supportive of the recent offer, and brave enough to own up, could you discuss what's good about the offer?

[hillbillybob]

If anyone is supportive of the recent offer, and brave enough to own up, could you discuss what's good about the offer?

given that complete radio silence has descended again I don't think even the negotiation team are willing to take up your offer

[Aimpoint]

Overall, are pilots going to make more money? Yes. But was this the agreement that the union was prepared to go down the PIA path for? Debatable. There are also some concessions that are going to be an issue.

Pay - 3% backdate to start of 2023, then 3% (+ 5% first year), 3%, 3% increases. I get that's an improvement, but doesnt really address the backwards steps the pilot group has taken in recent years. Nor does it attract or retain people to the airline (which was one of the union's main arguments for increased pay). Plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds showing how we are going backwards. Pilots will keep going to Alliance, Virgin and others.

15 year scale - helps the guys that have been around for years. Instantly get a bump from a 10 year scale to a 15 year scale. This is good for senior pilots, but at what cost? See next...

FO tiers - "A new low time pilot separate pay scale based on flight time to be implemented". Three different scales keep wages down. You are either an FO, or you are not, so pay them appropriately. This scale doesn't help the FOs, and makes them feel they've been sold out to get a 15 year Captain scale. Plus the base wage is only 3% above the award - are you kidding?! Again, the argument was we need to attract new pilots, then this terrible FO deal has been pencilled. Pilots aren't applying for QLink jobs because of the low wages, having an E scale $2000 p.a. above award won't attract them. Just hold off for the QF job or take Alliance instead.

Duty hour allowance - now paid for the whole time from commencement to sign off at home base. So it means you get paid for the overnight. This again means more money, but it seems like the wrong path has been taken, which is causing all the angst amongst the bases. Apparently Easterns were offered a big duty hour allowance increase (50% perhaps), but was for the time you were actually on duty (so you didn't get paid while off duty in a hotel). However, most QLink duties are single day duties, or a minimum rest overnights (usually one a week). So simple maths shows that most pilots would benefit from an increase to the current DHA structure rather than implementing the new DHAA structure at a lower rate. Again plenty of spreadsheets doing the rounds with current rostering proving this. The only base that benefits from this scheme is the Cairns base, which has double the overnights of other bases, including many three day trips. The argument is the union wants this to avoid the company rostering big trips in the future. I'm not convinced it will make a difference, and most bases lose out on the higher rate and structure that was a possibility. Overall, the company dodged a financial bullet by not having to accept the AIPA Eastern DHA deal.

18/24 month type freezes. This will affect anyone wanting to go from the classic to Q400. This does not affect the Cairns base - they are all Q400s. However, it stops Adelaide pilots getting to Brisbane. If you take an Adelaide base, you are stuck there. Good luck getting people to apply now! Eastern will have to fall in line with Sunstate for their EBA, which means they won't be able to upgrade to the Q400. Plus, what happens if you take a Sydney classic job, but want to transfer to Brisbane (like many new FOs). Again, you cant do this with a type freeze. Overall, there is no benefit to the pilot group for this concession - only career and base stagnation, but this benefits the company big time with reduced training and relocation costs. But if you live in FNQ you wouldn't be aware of this problem...

2am sign ons - another concession to 'fund' this average EBA. Again, this doesn't affect Cairns pilots. But Brisbane pilots will cop it because they do the early FIFO charters. The union claims they want lifestyle, this absolutely ruins lifestyle even if it's only a couple of times a roster.

10 days off a month. Seems pretty good but there are some massive question marks. The company can buy back one day at roster publish. So if I bid for days off, and get awarded them, can the company force a buy back one of these? If so, that's not what I'd want as it ruins the bidding system. They need to only be able to buy back non requested days off. The devil is in the detail, hopefully the committee thought of this.

The buy back is at a day's rate. Sounds ok, but it's only half a current day off payment. So FOs will get an extra $300 pre tax a month, and Captains $600 (approximately depending on scale). "The undertaking from the company is to resource to a level where all pilots receive 10 days off at roster publish". Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, are you kidding? This will never happen due "resourcing or operational constraints".

Overall, the in principle agreement is going to create massive division. Back to the bad old days where Eastern pilots hate Sunstate pilots because Sunstate took a selfish and turd deal. But now Sunstate pilots will also resent Sunstate pilots - the agreement benefits Cairns pilots the most and it's almost like the committee forgot there was an Adelaide base. And when the lead negotiator is a senior Cairns pilot, you can see why some pilots believe, correctly or not, that the agreement has been developed to benefit certain individuals the most.

The silence from the union and committee has been deafening. The pilots are seething but once again the union isn't communicating with the members to explain the benefits or structure of the deal. We got one catch up to discuss the negotiation months ago, but none of the "in principle" details were discussed. Pilots are going to vote no just to show what they think about the committee's leadership.

[framer]

Sounds like it will be a no then. This is the most favourable circumstances I’ve seen since the 90’s to get some gains into a contract ( as opposed to nearly keeping up with inflation) so if you don’t vote for a contract that makes you smile this year, you probably never will.

[Mr Mossberg]

so if you don’t vote for a contract that makes you smile this year, you probably never will

Most pertinent and erudite comment regarding the Australian aviation industry post covid :ok:

[Callsign Please]

Excellent summary Aimpoint.

A little further on the duty hours issue:
Classic guys and gals don’t like it. I haven’t seen any of those spreadsheets but I have seen a lot of FOs particularly banding together on this and putting their own ideas forward.

In Sydney the classic fleet does bugger all overnights compared to the 400, and almost exclusively 9hr min rest. The feeling is that the overnight bump is not as equitable an idea as a straight increase, and rewards a fleet that’s already paid more.
In Melbourne there are more hotel trips, and a whole lot more drivers that miss the six blade days. A bit of attraction and retention focus there and in Adelaide wouldn’t go astray either. No one would need a fleet freeze if there wasn’t two pay scales for the same job.

I don’t know what the best answer is this time around, and personally that’s my irritation: none of these ideas have been sold to the group, just slapped on an email that says we’ve agreed.
I don’t think half of them were on the survey, whenever that was.

[FO NappyBum]

Company Rules of Engagement Handbook:

Rule 4 - identify who are on the council, identify their needs and reward them.

The proposed EA rewards the life linkers. That’s always been the case at Sunstate probably Eastern as well.

While the majors are recruiting LINK will always bleed pilots. For the young kids watching, apply for a jet gig while you can. You’ll be earning bare minimum to pay rent in Sydney at LINK. Most FOs have side gigs and looks like that won’t change any time soon …

Rex is your quickest way to a Qantas Group Jet gig. The numbers are there to prove this.

Only 6 months ago - CP quote : “QantasLink will be the only way pathway into mainline”. Ironic how there is a mainline job advert for externals as we speak.

[Going Nowhere]

As someone in the 10 year plus bracket, the immediate pay bump is about the only benefit to this proposed EBA and if I was selfish, I’d vote yes based on that alone. I do high duty hours but little overnights so the DHAAAAAAAAA rate means 4/5 of **** all to me.

There appears to be close to zero in it for 80% of the pilot group. The boost in pay to the F/O’s will only get them above the award for a few years and then they’ll be back to where we are now.

The company can’t even recruit to fund the current 8 days off a roster, so you’re never going to see 10 days off. They’ll just accept the extra 8 hrs pay a roster and move on.

I’ve only heard one person openly say they support the proposed agreement. ADL base and just about every F/O appears to be in the ‘No’ camp.

Voting this up will be a wasted opportunity as it’s never been a better time to make significant inroads into years of eroded conditions. That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA, but the negotiating team need to go back to the table and they need a clear mandate from a united pilot group to do that.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA

It’s the only language these IR practitioners understand. They will laugh at you until you take the PIA bat to them.

[okrookbutnottoook]

given that complete radio silence has descended again I don't think even the negotiation team are willing to take up your offer
Yeah, I was hoping that someone could mansplain it for me, but the reality I can see is that this agreement is bad for everyone but a select few.

Current rumour I've heard is that this will delay our usage of PIA past an expiry date of the vote, and we'll have to vote again to undertake PIA, can anyone confirm?

[okrookbutnottoook]

Voting this up will be a wasted opportunity as it’s never been a better time to make significant inroads into years of eroded conditions. That doesn’t mean we need to go straight for the pitchforks and flaming torches style of PIA, but the negotiating team need to go back to the table and they need a clear mandate from a united pilot group to do that.

I honestly thought that the survey was clear that we need a significant increase in base pay, this agreement is not that, where is the disconnect in the bargaining team?

[Fonz121]

EBA time always used to frustrate me to no end back in my Dash days. IMO every proposed change always seemed to be of benefit to a handful of people who ran the show and there really wasn’t any point proposing anything else at the info nights as everything anyone suggested got shot down by old mate.

Everything always annoyingly got voted up first time under the threat of removing backpay/one off payments, as there were so many people planning to go elsewhere that they didn’t really care about a lot of the detail, just getting their payments before pissing off.

[okrookbutnottoook]

The company can’t even recruit to fund the current 8 days off a roster, so you’re never going to see 10 days off. They’ll just accept the extra 8 hrs pay a roster and move on.

Have to agree, this is a massive piss take. If it's a day off, they can pay the double-time rate. "Buying it back" at a days pay means it was never a day off to begin with.

It's disappointing that the bargaining team have accepted "we'll do our best".

[hillbillybob]

so we have someone who is looking to move from a base of 144% of the award to 151% of the award telling people that 103% of the award is good enough for new starters, when the new starters pay scale was bought in it was 108% of the award

[717tech]

If the individual is a union rep, couldn't the pilot group show a vote of no confidence? Or something along those lines?

[hillbillybob]

If the individual is a union rep, couldn't the pilot group show a vote of no confidence? Or something along those lines?

not sure if there is scope for a vote of no confidence but from the AFAP rules an extraordinary general meeting can be called

6. MEETINGS AND NOTICE OF MEETINGS
(a) The Committee of a Council may, at its discretion, convene an Annual Ordinary General Meeting at such date, time and place as shall be prescribed by the Committee of the Council.
(b) All other meetings held during the year shall be called Extraordinary General Meetings.
(c) The Committee of a Council may whenever it thinks fit, convene an Extraordinary General Meeting, and the Committee shall, on the requisition in writing of at least fifteen of the Members of the Council, or 5 percent of the Members of the Council, whichever is the less, forthwith proceed to convene an Extraordinary General Meeting of the Council.
(d) The requisition shall state the objects of the meeting, and shall be signed by the requisitionists, and deposited with the Secretary of the Council.

[Callsign Please]

there really wasn’t any point proposing anything else at the info nights

Oh boy you got an info night? Those would’ve been the days :}

[hillbillybob]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x429/844i8u_3cab15b561af7e82da378b3337ce03fdb8132bbb.jpg

[HappyBandit]

Out comes the 🍿

[TrashDash]

According to last night's email, a class 'A' Q400 FO will earn $14000 less PA than a 'normal' FO. By year 4 the gap will be nearly $16000.

You've sold out the FO ranks and future pilots.

Fleet freeze of 18 months from check to line or 24 months from employment/award, whichever occurs first. This applies to new hires only.

Anyone applying to QantasLink should be very concerned about this. Do not accept a base you cannot see yourself living in for 24 months. This clause only benefits the company, and seems to forgot there's an Adelaide base. Adelaide is a great place to live but new hirers that want Brisbane should not apply for that base if this EBA gets up. You will be stuck on the Q300 and therefore can't move to the Q400 which is a Brisbane base. You've given the company a massive training cost saving with this clause.

Minimum guaranteed 12 hours between shifts at home base. Whilst this is in current FRMS it was never in our EA. This is now locked in. If the company changes this in their FRMS we will be protected.

Committee pretending this is a win they achieved is laughable. CASA would never allow this FRMS time off period to be walked back.

The current DHA is only payable for duty hours whereas the new DHAA is payable on all hours from sign-on at home base to sign off at home base. This means that DHAA is payable for all duty time and time away from home. In that regard DHAA is a significant lifestyle protection/compensation for those who are taken away from their home and family for work. The company needs to start to honour the EA rostering agreement letter. There is now a significant cost associated with continuing to roster pilots in a non-regional lifestyle pattern. We would hope that over time it helps drive less wasted time at hotels away from home base, less multi day trips and better regional pilot lifestyle. We also hope it will eventually make the rostering of overnights a bit more equitable across the different bases. ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

First, if the company isn't honoring the current agreement, then what the actual F has the committee been doing the last few years?

And how does this make rostering of overnights more equitable across different bases? The nature of Cairns flying means you will get the most overnights and make more money. Adelaide get stuff all overnights, which are usually min rest or close. So certain bases are clearly going to make more money.

Come clean and explain what the original DHA offer was. Word on the street is AIPA were offered a 50% increase, which meant more money overall in everyone's pockets.

[okrookbutnottoook]

And how does this make rostering of overnights more equitable across different bases? The nature of Cairns flying means you will get the most overnights and make more money. Adelaide get stuff all overnights, which are usually min rest or close. So certain bases are clearly going to make more money.

An FO in Sydney on the classic fleet will be hard up making it week to week. They don't get many overnights at all, and you can guarantee that they will be taking any gig as soon as it comes up. There won't be many long term classic drivers at this rate.

[TimmyTee]

Ahh, QantasLink and side letters. A match made in non-legally-binding paradise.

[Great bear lake]

You have to remember this is the same AFAP mafia that brought Sunstate and Eastern pilots the ‘Spill and Fill’, remember that? Where all pilots Rank, Base and Type was magically dissolved for 10 days, whilst the AFAP and the company reordered your life.

The same characters in a conflicted drama that involves using Sunstate, Eastern and Network pilots as canon fodder in a Qantas subsidiary PIA strategy. Nothing to do with flexing muscle to AIPA pilots in the vein hope for membership at Qantas, with Short Haul EBA open and Long Haul soon to be.

Isn’t the President of AFAP a Sunstate Committee member and the approval process for PIA requires AFAP Executive voting from pilots that work for competitor airlines? Sound like a conflict of interest? Surely not…

How do Bargaining Reps working for the Sunstate and Eastern pilots fail to take a $17 an Hour DHA (50-60%) increase offer from the company in favour of the Lead Negotiators DHAA lifestyle enhancement. Taking money out of the pockets of members who pay for that privilege.

Now there are no Roadshows, we are in a rush to avoid scrutiny and blow back from the pilots around FO pay and DHA. Dial in to your committee…is what you get for your membership.

This treatment of hard working Sunstate pilots by the same characters trying to take advantage of their work mates has a long history. Australian Industrial Relations Commission; AFAP V Sunstate 1996 (N5169).

[hillbillybob]

You have to remember this is the same AFAP mafia that brought Sunstate and Eastern pilots the ‘Spill and Fill’, remember that? Where all pilots Rank, Base and Type was magically dissolved for 10 days, whilst the AFAP and the company reordered your life.



the committee's behaviour around the spill was shameful, a beautiful case of doesn't affect us, so you are on your own. especially for those that were going to be forced out of their base

[Great bear lake]

And don't forget those captains that lost their rank, yes they were Direct Entry captains (ex-sunnies in at least one case) but they had legally enforceable contracts that would have been upheld at the FWC...but for some unexplained reason the AFAP and Sunstate committee chose to endorse the arrangement. Rumour has it that a particular senior Cairns based captain was the architect of the 'Spill'.

[DuckTales1983]

I’m completely confused. I got an email saying we had to show the company how angry we are, then all of a sudden a short message that we were going to be in principle and now radio silence.

It seems almost everyone in ADL feels like they have been completely forgotten about again. The unborn will get their 18 months freeze and won’t be able to bid across to Qld. Combine that insult with DHAA which will only really benefit CNS more than anyone. Apparently Eastern were offered a DHA increase of 50%, ADL would have every right to be upset. A lot of drivers in BNE seem unhappy as well and I’ve heard the classic drivers in SYD are fuming that it wasn’t taken.

Such a divisive payment, surely it’s not going to change any rostering practices?

[717tech]

I don't want to hijack this thread. Can anyone point me to any info about this "spill"? It's the first I've heard of it and interested to see what happened.

[Brakerider]

I don't want to hijack this thread. Can anyone point me to any info about this "spill"? It's the first I've heard of it and interested to see what happened.

short of it is, every EAA and SAA pilots position was “dissolved” or “spilled” and pilots were required to re-bid for a position. Several bases changed their fleet makeup.

This meant some DECs became FOs. Some people were forced to move base. Captains were demoted from the Q400 to the Classic and in some cases to FO.

[mince]

Why did this happen?

[TrashDash]

Why did this happen?

COVID in 2020. To save money the classic fleet wasn't needed in QLD anymore, so they needed a way to work out how to reassign the Sunstate seniorty list because the Briz base was going all Q400. Similar thing with Eastern because they took the Q400s out of Victoria.

[dejapoo]

And don't forget those captains that lost their rank, yes they were Direct Entry captains (ex-sunnies in at least one case) but they had legally enforceable contracts that would have been upheld at the FWC...but for some unexplained reason the AFAP and Sunstate committee chose to endorse the arrangement. Rumour has it that a particular senior Cairns based captain was the architect of the 'Spill'.

I reckon I know who it is.... once filled a Macair saab with fuel from his own VISA?

[Going Nowhere]

Been very quiet since the email late two Saturday’s ago which pretty much said “Hurry, hurry! We’ll get the zoom meetings organised so you can all vote yes and get your money!”

[hillbillybob]

we did just get the September minutes of the committee meeting, these things take time. it did quietly announce the new committee rep that has magically appeared though

[DuckTales1983]

Been very quiet since the email late two Saturday’s ago which pretty much said “Hurry, hurry! We’ll get the zoom meetings organised so you can all vote yes and get your money!”

Agreed. The radio silence has been deafening. I’ve heard from one of my mates down there that apparently down south 15-20% of Eastern is AIPA now and their bargaining reps are still trying for more. Something more is definitely needed, the mood around this deal doesn’t seem great.

[Ultra]

No surprise about how the AFAP treats its members..sacrificing the v. many to benefit the v. few, has long been in its culture.

This would be o.k. if "the few" were "needy underdogs", (in typical Aussie tradition) but in their case, THEIR few form their "top elite"...

Shame on you AFAP....have you not learned anything in your long and once proud history of the true values that set you above all other unions? Your back door deals, brown paper bags and bully-boy tactics make you no better than blue collar unions these days.

How can you promote, without any check-measure, the imbecilic, misguided and disturbed ideals of one irelevant old-timer to the exclusion of the new-generation of pilots?

Aren't you ashamed and embarassed that it is only the MBF that now gives you any credibility or appeal? Remove this and membership would leave in droves..

You are so overdue for self-reflection..

[TrashDash]

Agreed. The radio silence has been deafening. I’ve heard from one of my mates down there that apparently down south 15-20% of Eastern is AIPA now and their bargaining reps are still trying for more. Something more is definitely needed, the mood around this deal doesn’t seem great.

Now would be a great time for AIPA to start a Sunstate committee. Plenty are over AFAP and planning on voting no to the EBA. And plenty leaving for mainline the next 2 years so can take their membership there.

[717tech]

short of it is, every EAA and SAA pilots position was “dissolved” or “spilled” and pilots were required to re-bid for a position. Several bases changed their fleet makeup.

This meant some DECs became FOs. Some people were forced to move base. Captains were demoted from the Q400 to the Classic and in some cases to FO.

Thanks Brakerider. I'm utterly disgusted to hear that's happened. More so it was endorsed by the AFAP.

[Karak]

Only time will tell if the EA's get voted up!

What it will bring to the fore is which union provides better service to its members.

AFAP have long ridden on the coattails of the MBF which no doubt is great benefit to those pilots who are able to receive a refund of the contributions made by the company (capped at 65K) upon reaching 20 years in the fund.
Union fees 1%
Legal is outsourced

AIPA Union fees 0.88% (FOC until CTL)
Established in house legal team with experience in negotiation of multiple QF agreements.
Stayed at the table during negotiations.
Keep working towards an effective agreement that wouldn't discriminate between pilots who preferred to do day duties rather than overnights.

Sure PIA gets managements attention, but given that they were quick to jump on an in principal agreement after getting a whopping vote to proceed with PIA I'm sure some of the AFAP membership will be a little disappointed with the outcome.

Both unions have their good and bad points it will be interesting to see if the membership leans from one side to the other in the wash-up !

[Big Silver Spoon]

Remember the union is as good as its members.

It’s company reps who negotiate the agreements. The union is a collective of other pilots. The union with the most members and deeper pockets has the most clout when taking on a legal behemoth like Qantas.

So if it’s a bad result, it’s the company volunteers in the union. Not the union itself.

[hillbillybob]

After old mate kept the long of claims Supa secret it was funny to hear that the bravo afap committee just sent their log of claims to all their members. Slightly different degree of accountability there

[DuckTales1983]

Now would be a great time for AIPA to start a Sunstate committee. Plenty are over AFAP and planning on voting no to the EBA. And plenty leaving for mainline the next 2 years so can take their membership there.

I think it would require a few of us to vote with our feet and take up membership there. I wouldn’t be surprised if some from ADL lead the charge, AFAP have forgotten there is even a base there. They have every right to feel this in principle is to suit an individual’s needs. Word around the traps is they are all leaning towards a no vote.

[RollThroughApproved]

I think it would require a few of us to vote with our feet and take up membership there. I wouldn’t be surprised if some from ADL lead the charge, AFAP have forgotten there is even a base there. They have every right to feel this in principle is to suit an individual’s needs. Word around the traps is they are all leaning towards a no vote.

Is that the AIPA who’s Eastern rep went to RSA to help the company undercut Australian pilot’s terms and conditions by recruiting foreign pilots?

The timeless AIPA v AFAP argument is wasted time. Its not the name on the door (the door we fund, mind you) of the organisation that matters. It’s the people who sit on your council who will make a difference in the negotiations. Rather than splitting into two unions - which undermines your power….. Get a bunch of smart people together and replace the current dead wood with pilots who won’t just look out for themselves.

Make the company negotiate against people who can hold them to account - or even better, who aren’t too proud to call on a professional negotiator for help!

That’s how you will get change.

[Karak]

Unlike the slow horses at AFAP too busy patting themselves on the back after signing up to an in principle agreement that discriminated against pilots with DHAA, It looks like AIPA after continued negotiations with the company have gained a valuable concession to allow an "Opt in system" for DHA or DHAA depending on the lifestyle choices of the pilot. Well Done AIPA for holding firm for what is in the best interest of ALL pilots.

[Ultra]

Is that the AIPA who’s Eastern rep went to RSA to help the company undercut Australian pilot’s terms and conditions by recruiting foreign pilots?

The timeless AIPA v AFAP argument is wasted time. Its not the name on the door (the door we fund, mind you) of the organisation that matters. It’s the people who sit on your council who will make a difference in the negotiations. Rather than splitting into two unions - which undermines your power….. Get a bunch of smart people together and replace the current dead wood with pilots who won’t just look out for themselves.

Make the company negotiate against people who can hold them to account - or even better, who aren’t too proud to call on a professional negotiator for help!

That’s how you will get change.


Roll Through...,

It's a pity that you've allowed your opinion to become so jaundiced by the ranting of a few angry old men (in the AFAP). It's also a pity that your opinion lacks a good measure of understanding. I guess you're just young.
Here are some verifiable facts:
1. Experienced Check and Training Pilots (not line plots) were sought from the RSA to maintain the operation. No C & T pilots = no line pilots = no operation.
2. Why was this necessary? There seems to be a lack of type-experienced C &T pilots here.
3. Why do I believe this? The perpetual E o I for C & T pilots that has been published internally for some time with little success.
4. Why little success? (and I'm sure this is the single point on which we will continue to disagree), because LIFESTYLE (not insufficient financial reward) is more important it seems, to our local qualified pilots that could be applying for those C & T positions.

Don't criticise the AIPA rep leader for going to the RSA in search of qualified pilots to sustain our operation. The same operation that now employs, trains, pays and enhances yours and your cohort's future employment opportunities. He did the same thing many years ago WITH THE AFAP's BLESSING after extensive mutual consultation between AFAP and management.
Why him and not someone else? Because he has had a long association with the RSA through many early-career flying years there and some ongoing connection.

In other words, please put away your knife and stop playing the man, because he's earned his stripes in this company and this industry and he deserves better treatment.

"Its not the name on the door (the door we fund, mind you) of the organisation that matters. It’s the people who sit on your council who will make a difference in the negotiations." "Get a bunch of smart people together and replace the current dead wood with pilots who won’t just look out for themselves."

On these points, you and I are in complete agreement. That's why, after decades of AFAP membership, I (and my smart-old-men cohort) voted with our feet and left for better pastures with AIPA. We had become so disillusioned by (and mistrusting of) the AFAP's divergence from its early values and beliefs. They have become a lazy organisation that's now top-heavy and with no real direction about promoting pilot interests - compare the size of their executive and management team to the number employed in AIPA...it's telling.
Why has this happened? Because the MBF is its enabler - lulling pilots into overlooking its bad behaviour during their career, through the promise of a sizeable nest-egg at the end of their career.

I understand your optimistic sentiment about unity and scale. Unfortunately, I'm old enough to know that it's a youthful pipe dream that won't ever be achieved - too many different personalities and too many different priorities out there. Best we can hope for is that the most number of people find benefit with the least amount of imbalance or inequality
I tried to stay on and to believe in the AFAP and even once tried to persuade their leadership into a realignment of their divergent path. That sage advice fell on deaf ears. They are too comfortable in their current culture.

I was around when AIPA split from the AFAP around 1980. Like you, I also thought the breakup was a selfish act by an elite group of self-interested pilots and that it would ultimately undermine pilot interests industrially. Fact is, it didn't. It just established 2 distinct groups of pilots that have different views on how things should be run - with the benefit of some years and a change in personal outlook, it was a perfectly reasonable and sensible democratic action to take.

I believe in a single representative body for all Qantas-group pilots - not because I'm a "Qantas Sky-God", (not even close flying a Dash 8 in regional ops!), but because I trust the organisation to promote and support my interests and to do so fairly and intelligently.

[RollThroughApproved]

Roll Through...,

It's a pity that you've allowed your opinion to become so jaundiced by the ranting of a few angry old men (in the AFAP). It's also a pity that your opinion lacks a good measure of understanding. I guess you're just young.
Here are some verifiable facts:
1. Experienced Check and Training Pilots (not line plots) were sought from the RSA to maintain the operation. No C & T pilots = no line pilots = no operation.
2. Why was this necessary? There seems to be a lack of type-experienced C &T pilots here.
3. Why do I believe this? The perpetual E o I for C & T pilots that has been published internally for some time with little success.
4. Why little success? (and I'm sure this is the single point on which we will continue to disagree), because LIFESTYLE (not insufficient financial reward) is more important it seems, to our local qualified pilots that could be applying for those C & T positions.

Don't criticise the AIPA rep leader for going to the RSA in search of qualified pilots to sustain our operation. The same operation that now employs, trains, pays and enhances yours and your cohort's future employment opportunities. He did the same thing many years ago WITH THE AFAP's BLESSING after extensive mutual consultation between AFAP and management.
Why him and not someone else? Because he has had a long association with the RSA through many early-career flying years there and some ongoing connection.

In other words, please put away your knife and stop playing the man, because he's earned his stripes in this company and this industry and he deserves better treatment.

You’ve made my point.

Lifestyle is a big part of the conditions associated with a regional airline, so when we talk improving ‘conditions’ we are absolutely talking about lifestyle. I totally agree that a lack of training staff will put pressure on the company faster than any other position, especially when the company is bleeding pilots because it is not an employer of choice as a result of its poor conditions - you need to train hard when everyone starts leaving. The fact that the company was looking to RSA to fill those positions is telling on how much pressure they were under. This was a significant opportunity for the pilot group to exploit.

Instead of using the current position the company is in to the pilots advantage to improve both lifestyle and financial position, someone went overseas to help dig the company out of the position they have gotten themselves in. The company got themselves into that position by wearing down the conditions to the point that a C&T position (which should be a sort after position) is only attractive to pilots looking to escape South Africa. You have to agree that at best the trip is a bad look.

I’m sure he has a long association with RSA, and would have been really helpful for the company to make connections and find pilots in RSA - but that’s not the job of a union rep. His job is to represent the interests of the pilots he represents. This junket to RSA is not in the interests of the pilots. Telling me that ‘AFAP endorsed it last time’ isn’t a positive point for your case either….

Also, as an aside, it’s not just the financial and lifestyle side that stops people from becoming checkers and trainers at Qlink. The perception that was built by AY and his cronies that the best way to become a Qlink hostage is to put your hand up for a C&T role. You can watch your trainees get their start date at QF/JQ while you spend years training QFPP cadets to land in hot gusty conditions at LRE waiting for a start date in the next decade. How many time have you heard in the crew room ‘I’m not taking a command because I want to go to Mainline?” - C&T is no different. At least the last CP tried to fix this by making the releases more transparent - but I think there is still a big stink attached to C&T roles.

[TrashDash]

The EBA was released today. Thank you to every one who posted on the thread. It caught the attention of the negotiating team (despite them claming we are wrong) when we were given no formal feedback opportunties. The opt in for DHA vs DHAA is a good outcome that acknowledges different bases have different flying. Hopefully we finally get communication from the committee to understand their reasoning for the changes.

[framer]

Glad to hear it Trash.
Is anyone able to post a link to the EBA or give a basic rundown of how it’s going to look?
Cheers

[HappyBandit]

The EBA was released today. Thank you to every one who posted on the thread. It caught the attention of the negotiating team (despite them claming we are wrong) when we were given no formal feedback opportunties. The opt in for DHA vs DHAA is a good outcome that acknowledges different bases have different flying. Hopefully we finally get communication from the committee to understand their reasoning for the changes.

Yes I think the option of DHA vs DHAA is good, however I think this is where the positives end. Ive done various calculations and its still well below where it should be with a very modest 4% increase per year factoring in pay freeze etc. This assumes the propoaed % increase of 5 and 3 per year alomg with dha increase.

The union reps have already begun their pounding of the chest everytime they step into the crewroom. No one even needs to ask how the negotiations are going, they'll tell you.

You can probably assume where my vote will be going. I understand most just want this sorted, as do I, however it also needs to be worthwhile. In its current state, I don't personally believe it is.

[hillbillybob]

they should be a bit embarrassed shovelling an extra 7+ grand in their own pockets while abandoning new starters but im sure the chest beating will continue

[DuckTales1983]

It sounds like the DHA vs DHAA opt in was demanded by AIPA to get them on side and that has been passed on to our EBA.

Apparently AFAP were laser focussed on DHAA?

I wonder if the higher DHA rate will get the ADL crew across the line now?

[RollThroughApproved]

they should be a bit embarrassed shovelling an extra 7+ grand in their own pockets while abandoning new starters but im sure the chest beating will continue

Let’s be totally honest, Qlink is the new GA/hour building job in Australia - not my opinion, that’s what the proposed EBA is yelling to the industry.

The union reps are all “Link for Life”, it’s only fair that they are happy/chest beating at the new EBA. It’s probably fair that they have feathered their own nests - they will be in it for the rest of their careers and they’d want to have a good deal to turn up every day and fly with 250 hour pilots day in, day out.

[DuckTales1983]

So I got to read the latest muscle flex AFAP sent the eastern pilots, someone showed it to me during tiday’s outung.

I’m bemused by their continued jabs at “the othe bargainig union”. So apparently at eastern they are frowning upon bargaining reps refusing to take the first offer on the table and continuing to bargain?

[hillbillybob]

it has been childish since the start (or even before) some of what was written in the airpilot rag about pilots going to another union was Year 12 mean girls level sad

[Callsign Please]

Only three pages after the whining about staying single union strong, was the new mainline council column asking to spread the word about switching over and getting numbers up…

[BoomTimes]

the dung has been voted up. Enjoy the stench.

[CaptainInsaneO]

You get a car! You get a car! You get a car!

But I don't like the colour of my car...

[DuckTales1983]

You get a car! You get a car! You get a car!

But I don't like the colour of my car...

So Eastern got voted up with even bigger numbers. The new thing floating around is that it’s the fault of “the other bargaining group” whose members were apparently in the crew room in their own time supposedly talking to pilots about the vote that it didn’t get rejected.

I’m sorry but to me it sounds like they had the guts not to hide in the shadows.

I didn’t see any of our reps up here explaining it all!