VB's new EBA

[Jimmy Neutron]

VB’s long awaited EBA has been posted out by mail to all tech crew. It will be decided by vote. This will give all interested parties a sneak preview!

[Keg]

Hardly think the results will be scientific considering I just voted no to VBs EBA!! :D

[Interceptor]

VB management is about to receive a very strong message from the troops. That is that the VB pilots will not allow management to denigrate the profession of pilot any further by accepting such a ridiculous offer.

[digi2]

Int you should have thought about that a long time ago, the die is now cast by those that claim to hold the high moral ground.

[sprucegoose]

The high moral ground.......? Given that this is the first insight we have had to the guts of this EBA one would have to conclude that the "yes" box on the ballot isn't going to get much of a work out this time around.

[right side up]

lets face it. the large majority of pilots at DJ are the throw aways of aviation. Guys who could never get a start with a "real" airline, and had to go and buy a job and lower pay stanbdards through the industry.

They might act all tough with the EBA but we all know that no one else wants them, so they will take whatever.

Loosers

[Aussiefly]

Are you allowed to post any specifics? Has your pay increased etc
Just being nosey and will give a good indication on what they will propose for the international runs( interesting with a buisiness class product to enter the star alliance?):D

[Ramboflyer]

Off to the sin-bin for you Ramboflyer

[Lusimtingting]

Woomera

Can you do something about this idiot "Ramboflyer" poisoning everybody's threads ?.
:mad:

[Ramboflyer]

Im with right side up on this one, well done .....:confused:

[taiwan bound]

right side up. don't forget there are a lot of ex AN CX guys there remember.

While I agree woth you on the remainder of guys there, is there any need to call them throw aways?

Perhaps just unlucky would have been better. But I suppose they are all happy there. Not everyone can reach the 'majors' but DJ is a good next option dont you think.

[backspace]

Anyone care to show us what the EBA looks like?

[phuqmeded]

loosers
Actually, right side up , as they are virgins they are probablytight ers. If one were to lose at something, one would be a loser (single o). Get it right, dickwad.

[Al E. Vator]

Rambo, right-side-up.......when you sit down at your computer and think "great, what can I type to wind-up these Virgin losers" do you ever stop to think for a minute you sound just a bit pathetic?

Visualising you sitting there hammering away with all you aggro you seem rather sad.

PS: Your logic is also somewhat worrying re pilots not flying for 'majors' being losers. By that logic does that mean an instructor, charter pilot, helicopter driver, Citation captain, SAAB 340 F/O or unemployed AN pilot etc is also a loser?

My goodness you are a bitter little pair? Wind-ups can be fun but unless done intelligently the wind-up-er can look like a complete t-w-a-t. Suggest you 'two' come perilously close to that definition.

[KaptinZZ]

rsu,

I don't agree that they're the throwaways of aviation.

Sure, they might not have cracked AN or QF, or even mightier, CX etc., but missing out doesn't mean that were never good enough; just not good enough on the day, i.e., there were applicants with more desirable quals and experience in the batch they went through with.

The airlines are full of people who were just good on the day.

[T53C]

I don't think they are the throwaways either at DJ. Going out on a limb here, but I'd say if QF got some of their older Captains to go and sit all the stage one process, im sure we'd be in for a suprise. I'd also suggest ex AN pilots also who joined many years ago before all the hurdle jumping at joining level, wouldn't go overly well either. Just my humble opinion. :confused:

[Ramboflyer]

The dickwads are the 6 people who voted yes!:o

[sprucegoose]

You know, if I had to do a month in the sin bin these two should be hung.

[Route Discontinuity]

Can't get into the majors????

I joined VB with the great OZ lifestyle in mind. As did many of our ex-EM,CX,QF drivers.

For those of us with families, lifestyle outways financial gain.

It would be interesting to see the background of these so called pilots throwing mud in DJ's direction...... I tend to think that the most recient endorsement on thier licence would be say a
C-172..... Which they probably paid for!!

Awaiting an interesting comeback......

[T53C]

Until Woomera makes a decision, I think we should all not get our backs up over the radical few. They are sitting back enjoying the antagonising they are casting amongst the forums, and wanting bites out of any of us. The maturity of some of these individuals has a lot to be desired.

[farrari]

If one looks at this with a level head, VB pilots are doing well compared to say Eastern pilots. Both fly aircraft, so what if you have 50 or 150 behind you,and i say the eastern guys work harder due the ports they go into.Ok they do not make as much as say QF domestic, again so what, money is not everything.

[Wizofoz]

I think Rambo and Right Side are both ex AN guys, and as one myself all I can do is sincerely apologise to all and assure you that these D#### Heads are not typical of our number.

I'd like to appeal to both of them. We've all had a tough 12 months, but that's no reason to act like complete tossers. Talking such **** about DJ does nothing to denigrate them, but rather makes YOU and by association your former work-mates look like bitter jerks.

For all our sakes pull your heads in.

[digi2]

By responding to these two clowns we are only keeping them alive.

[SOPS]

:) Guys, with regards to them, I think its time to chill a little:p

[CallButton]

Spruce - If the EBA gets voted down, what is the next step?

[sprucegoose]

Not exactly sure Cally, Some effort to find the out what the sticking points were. Not that it would be hard to guess. More negotiating and eventually arbitration if theres no joy. Having had the great debate in a previous post about rostering and CAO 48.1 have to admit my personel suprise at the very recent amendment to CAO 48.1. Suddenly that whole thread is somewhat irrelevant. The EBA flight and duty limits now, on first and cursory inspection, appear somewhat better than the straight CAO 48.1. I'll be looking closer enroute to LAX tonight. In fairness however I think we should be allowed to hear the presentation from VB and the AFAP on the EBA over the next two weeks AND stand to be counted for any issues of disagreement and concern, then vote, which is the only real voice there is, before we get all fired up and vitriloic. This is a normal process and it should be given it's due course to run.

[Ramboflyer]

Im sure Wizofoz is with me on this one, but you would have to be one ****ed up human to leave CX and go to Dj especially the way thing are looking.
When you look at the poll the 6 yes voters will be the only pilots left after the mass exodous to new Ansett and good on you people for sticking it back to VB.
Godfrey is a weak **** and is living in denial if he thinks SIA is just joking around.
The only advice ive got is for the junior F/os at QF who want a command better get there applications out now to AN, Dragon, EK, gulf air Qatar china , CX etc.... and beat the rush, also i wont be an s/o for as long, help me .....:rolleyes:help me f

The 6 pilots left could do round Australia charters in the last VB 737 selling mobiles on overnights and records on board, and on international charters they could sell f/a 's to the arabs for a real pretty penny you guys are gonna do ok....
Good luck to all im not hanging it on VB just stating the facts. :(

[tightcannon]

Ramboflyer

Be very careful there is now a group of us who nearly have you worked out

We are just going to finish off what the kids in grade six started
"does that ring any bells" if not then look up september 1992'

[747-400 F/O]

Looks like we have inspector sherlock on the case boys!!!

[Wizofoz]

Rambo you are a goose and a blight on the good name of your former work-mates.

Why would you wish the agony we have been through on more fellow pilots (including a bunch of ex AN guys!!)

Can it mate! You are doing nothing but making youself look stupid and all of us look like spoilt kids.

[TIMMEEEE]

Right Side Up - a brave man indeed to label an entire pilot group as aviation wash-ups.

I've met a few VB guys who may come into that category but by the same token I happen to know quite a few outstanding aviators that work for VB also.
My wife and kids would be safe on their aircraft any day of the week.

With regard to the EBA I know of no real details but what did make me laugh was some talk on this forum some time back about a 20-30% pay rise or some such thing.

In all honesty if you were Brett Godfrey and were responsible and accountable to Chris Corrigan and/or Richard Branson why would you propose such a pay rise????
In Branson's eyes it would almost be blasphemous!
I think those rumours were wishful thinking at their best and unrealistic by all accounts.
Anything above a CPI pay rise is in stark contrast to what appears to be the Virgin doctrine of a low cost airline.

If anything why dont you guys band together to see if rostering principles can be changed so that if you go to work at least 5-6 hours are flown each day, you fly about 15-18 hours for say a three day trip and more days off are had rather than going to work for only 2-3 hour session.
Its realistic in my opinion and I'm sure morale would improve if you guys get say 12-14 days off per month without productivity being compromised.

Realistic?
It worked well for QF Dom and AN.

[Wizofoz]

One thing I am very interested to know, where does JR stand on all this?

Instrumental in the '89 fiasco, still bitter enough to deny employment to his erstwhile foes, where would he stand if the same thing happens at DJ?

[CAYNINE]

RSU and Rambo, did you guy's get knocked back by a VB Flighty or worse at the Hamo during happy hour?

Man bitterness like that will only drag the whole list of pruners your way in a not very freindly manner.

All companies have good and bad, but to label the guys at Virgin losers big call!!!

[bentandtwisted]

I have heard that there is a clause in the new EBA that allows the company not to pay the second 3% if any new or eatablished airline(ie Alliance, REX etc) start operating on the SY-ML-SY, SY-BNE-SY routes.

[Home Brew]

Basically, this EBA is a CPI (3%) increase for accepting the ano excemption with regard flight & duty limits - which allows 4 plus late night flights a week! With the large number of a/c parked around the country each night, I can't see the number of nights away from Vegasville reducing below the current level of 14 plus-a-month. So the current life style of DJ pilots will NOT improve one little bit!!!

As for the second 3%, it's based on a profit figure, so don't go asking the bank manager for a bigger mortgage.

I understand that EBA's never go to arbitration any more, unless they directly effect the national economy. So if no agreement is acceptable by either party, then the current EBA stays in force, then at least the drivers will have the protection of the current ANO 48 limits.

[Sopwith Pup]

Home Brew considering that Virgin is one of the two main airlines in OZ, then if the pilots took industrial action it would end up in arbitration.

[747-400 F/O]

Sounds to me like DJ is well and truely stuffed! But that is what you get for accepting bad conditions from day one. Good luck to all.

[Capt OverUnder]

Careful 747 F/O , the "bad conditions" as you call them were start up concessions for the 1st 2 years of operation even though some may deny that now. As Home Brew & Interceptor have said I feel a message will be sent to management in a week , one word "LifeStyle!"

[CallButton]

Yup that's right the current EBA remains in force but there are also no pay rises, even CPI. This helps no-one.

[Sopwith Pup]

Capt OverUnder how confident are you that things will change from the "start up concessions" that the pilots have worked under for the past couple of years? What are you expecting?

[747-400 F/O]

I truely hope they do improve. But realistically with a 3rd airline looming, I don't think DJ management is going to play ball.

My simple statement still remains, the guys should not have taken on the job with those conditions. It has set the standard for Australia.

Now unfortunately for anyone else who joins the 3rd airline when it come I'm sure they will get the same rap.

It is a shame. We do a very rewarding and difficult job at times being pilots, but when guys take low conditions what do you really expect?

Guys coming through the GA ranks now cannot look forward to the nice pay (appart from QF etc), but the joy of flying a jet is still their drive.

I understand however that there were a lot of guys who came from large airlines overseas to get home. And the majority of pilots at DJ could not get into QF, CX etc. So the fact of lower pay doesn't bother them at start of employment with DJ.

But if it never started that low perhaps Australia could have been immuned from the global problem of low paid pilots.

[50 Cal]

Don't flatter yourself 747 f/o....have you ever contemplated the thought that not everybody wants to work for Qantas. They are not the best carrier in the world my friend, only one of many airlines in the pacific region. Qf are very lucky to have inherited a debt free start, so I guess you wouldn't be so arrogant if all of a sudden QF had to restart as a low cost operation.

Just be thankful that you earn excellent wages [ as compared to most australians], and leave the DJ guys to get on with their world...

Oh just for the record, I have never applied to QF. !!:D :D

[Capt OverUnder]

747 F/O , Arent QF setting up Australian Airlines with "lower pay and conditions" right now. It is happening in your camp as well my friend , is your mainline operation next?
PUP , Lifestyle is my main issue with the proposed DJ EBA , nearly 1 month of overnights in 2 months is something that should be addressed but the document falls very short.:(

[Boeing Belly]

QF have been involved with low cost operations that are, and will continue to, degrade future prospects for QF pilots for ages, long before Australian Airlines came on the scene, ie National Jet and Impulse. As long as it doesn't affect the 747-400 Captains, AIPA will do nothing!!

[Geddy]

Can someone tell me, are they offering a pay increase above the increment?

[CAYNINE]

1 month of overnights in 2!!!

Are all the pilots in DJ single? Or are they heading that way?

"Remember if the horse pulls the plough all day long, by the end of the week he doesn't want to do it anymore."

[Interceptor]

As well as a strong message about to be sent to VB management regarding lack of lifestyle and pathetic remuneration on the proposed EBA, there will be an equally strong message sent to the AFAP that they are on notice to do what they are being paid to do. That is to negotiate a reasonable deal for its paying members or face the consequences of a diminished membership base.

[right side up]

50 Cal you are FULL OF IT!!!!

Never applied to QF what a load of it.

It is more likely you do not have the requirements to work for QF, or as I presume you failed your interview.

For someone to say they have not wanted to work for Qantas I think we all know is a lot of B/S.

You make me laugh. I bet you work for Virgin yourself and are all upset because you couldn't play with the big boys you looser.

[Keg]

Geez, lots of positive comment going on here at the moment! :rolleyes: :(

[Chimbu chuckles]

Right side up,

There are a lot of us out here who have never and will never apply to QF...long haul is not a pleasant way to make a living...just ask someone who's been at it a while.

Oh and in case you're wondering whether i have what it takes to be, at least, interviewed..10000+hrs, 7000+ command multi(4000+ turbine), 3000+ jet, including command/C&T/International ops...so how about you stop dictating how people who probably have a lot more flying experience, let alone life experience, should think.

You sound like a wannabe who has not worked out the reality of this profession.

No insult intended to current, past or future QF pilots:D My dad was one until retirement in '87...so I know of what I speak.

As far as VB is concerned...notice how few people who actually work for them, if anyone, is complaining about pay?

Chuck.

[AlbertRoss]

Chuck, I work for them. The pay sucks. However, as far as I'm concerned, lifestyle is the bigger issue. Not having a whinge as I knew what was on offer when I signed up, however, just wanted to let you know that our percieved silence on pay doesn't mean we're happy with it.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yep...but as you say lifestyle is more important...and far more subjective.

I would say, at a guess, that you'd be more impressed if they halved your overnights than if they increased your pay.

Chuck.

[gaunty]

Chuck

You took the words right out of my mouth :D

Having earned several PhDs from the UHKE I can attest that we all take directions in life for reasons that may make others with different aspirations shake their head in wonder.

I bailed out of Medicine several years in and knocked back a potential career in QF to the disbelief of many and might I say the short term disappointment of my family.

The reasons were well thought out, but I will admit in the harder times of my life that I might have happily reviewed them, but I have never ever regretted the results.

Way less than half my Med course are still practising, the others followed their dreams mostly in completely different areas, and, at the end of a long flight, I affirm that it wasn't for me, as someone who has the attention span of a gnat.
I have a very very great respect for the long haul pilots ability to stay "on the ball" professionally under those circumstances.
My personality type would almost certainly have gotten me into trouble of some sort of the other, out of sheer boredom.
And before every body gets into me about suggesting that long haul pilots are boring, read the above. It just requires a completely different type of person and a mindset than I possess.

People have always been my bag and that's the life I have followed, it's been good enough to educate my three children through private schools ( there went my 46' Bertram :rolleyes: ) :) and uni and live a very comfortable lifestyle by any measure. Big and little risks, big and little failures and successes.
You only need a little more of one than the other, for it to go either way.
Risk is the nature of the beast.
If you wish to trade off some risk for some certainty, then it is axiomatic that the rewards will vary accordingly.

What's this got to do with an EBA.??

You can only make the best of opportunities that are presented to you and that you are able to create.
There are no others.
What could or should have been are simply that.
You have no "rights" to a particular life or job, life will serve up whatever and however it comes.
Becoming bitter about what you think you deserve or what might or could have been will only prove destructive to you and those around you.

We are all where we are because we are, we can only change that by accepting that as a starting point and move on from there.
We ALL have the option to sit on the pot or get off, we can make changes at the margin and within the bounds of what is possible, but not WHOLEsale ones without changing the WHOLE thing.

And then, we risk the WHOLE thing. ;) and that applies equally to QF and VB.

[tightcannon]

Questions?
1. PAY INCREASE : If the problem with SACL is a non documented handshake deal then is it not the same for crew ie pay increase after company establishment and a rosy looking future
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

2. BASEINGS : If the problem with SACL is a non documented handshake deal then is it not the same for crew ie basings in Melb. after company establishment and a rosy looking future
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

3. LIFESTYLE : Everybody craves lifestyle (other than right sideup who must love ST Kilda, The Cross and San Fran.). why is it that the VB takes 12 months to implement a new roster system yet can spend $$$$ on a birthday party, new a/c and new terminals.
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

4. ROSTERING: why is it that the poor overworked rostering staff keep getting shafted. They are not allowed vistors now because that might distract them. The rosters are stuffed because managment keep moving the gold (sorry goal) posts.
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

5. OVERNIGHTS: Why is it that crew who want to go to home bases never seem to overnight there????
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

6. CALL OUTS: Why is rostering asking someone to work on their last day of annual leave and when the pilot refuses beacuse of prior commitments, a note is made on geneva that he/she refuses to work on a day off.
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

7. BASES: At a pilots forum 12 months ago everybody was told to expect a new base by the time VB had 28 a/c. guess what VB now has 28 and not even a pinch or whiff of new bases.
? Lets get the crew "divide and conquer worked in 89" ??????

So there you go this is not about airing dirty laundry, I suggest that those of you who work for VB not pay any attention to the negative idiot posts here by the well payed and ill informed.

I never applied to Ansett or Qantas purely based on the facts and education by 89ers. Yes right side up I was well qualified.

So in every war there are always intellegence units on both sides. In this war VB has three generals with previous trench and fox hole experiance, that they now direct artilliary needs to be remembered.

If anyone at VB needs further reading I suggest

Meloz and 89

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66062

Oh and one last question is it true that the 73-800's of qantas are now limited to 300kt

[oldhasbeen]

:confused:

[Home Brew]

Interceptor, the AFAP is only going to be as effective and stong as the commitment and input of all its members. Its only by DJ pilots giving an input into the Feds (or any other organisation) that changes can be achieved. As "tightcannon" says "Divide and conquer" is an effective management tool.

However, I suspect that a lot of newer guys are relectant to be noticed, by the "Valley Castle", taking a stand here. While this EBA states grounds for dismissal, etc, its so easy to forget the basic rights of every worker in this country of three written warnings, before dismissal. Also the right to challenge every warning, with some representative present when asked to "please explain".

As for the EBA, yes I to was hoping the money would improve, but all that is being offered is to give up the protection of ano 48 and embrace the excemption for a CPI increase. But somehow I don't see that (the excemption) reducing the rediculious high number of nights away from home (for a domestic operation that is).

[Z Force]

CAO 48 exemption equals at least a ten percent pay rise. Don't get sucked in like the Ansett wallies who took two percent for the exemption. With the exemption, the company makes enormous financial gains.

[laydown]

________________________________________
There are a lot of us out here who have never and will never apply to QF...long haul is not a pleasant way to make a living...just ask someone who's been at it a while.
________________________________________

hello? heard of shorthaul?

[EPIRB]

Yeah Laydown, what's wrong with ten days on and twenty off too?

[Offchocks]

Chimbu Chuckles quite a sweeping statement, it's horses for courses..... some like long haul and others prefer short haul.
Having done quite a bit of both, I prefer long haul.:)

[Tankengine]

tightcannon:
Interesting that you did not apply to Qantas due 89ers advice,
If you were really informed you would know that Qantas was not part of 89 and we have quite a few 89ers with us! :rolleyes
If you wanted shorthaul and refuse to fly the 737 due to some of it's Captains being from Australian/TAA from 89 then there is the 767!
On the relative merits of longhaul/shorthaul it is horses for courses and a change is as good as a holiday! [after the last 6 years on the 400 I am training on the 737 for a change!]:D
Not endorsed on 800 yet but there is some speed restrictions on the use of speedbrake etc. They are from BOEING therefore affect
Virgin as well as any other 800 operator. :cool: :

[Interceptor]

Home Brew,

I agree with all that you have to say.
However there is no denying that the AFAP has done serious damage to it's credibility by recommending at pilot forums that pilots should accept the EBA while full well knowing that it is a poor document in all respects as well as being against the general wishes of the majority.
One has to ask why they have done this ??
If this EBA is voted in there will be absolutely nothing left in the future to bargain with as everything would have been given up this time around. And for what ?, 3 % !
The time is now to make the votes count by letting VB management and the AFAP know, NOT HAPPY JAN !

[tightcannon]

Hey Tankengine well i stand corrected
i always thought that qantas bought a Tatas. As for the advice go read that thread ,all that stuff happened, I have seen what it did to people and thier families. just remember that your wages now are the result of bargaining power and if you give that power away mate you never get it back. (well its only taken ford and holden 30 years to produce super cars again after the powers that be told them to stop)
As to the 737 try this thread

http://home.primus.com.au/qf737/

and

http://www.b737.org.uk/

you will find good stuff there.

I am aware of the 300kt sb limit but heard a rumour that Qantas are limiting to 300kt overall not just s - brake?????
im not talking about the 270 de-ice limit either

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well offchocks I'm very happy for you:D

I personally believe that any aircraft with more than 2500nm range with alternate and IFR reserves is badly designed:D

I remember going Hyderabad - Singapore in the Falcon thinking "if this is what long haul is like you can shove it" :(

A good mate flys a Canadair Global Express out of HK. When he told me about the flying ANC-CLK and arriving with 4+ hours in the tanks I was almost ill....mind you the crew rest in the Global was as flash as M Jackson:D

Anyway back to the thread

Chuck.;)

[Hugh Jarse]

Sorry to go off topic, but I feel I had to post a reply, considering my pilot group is going through an EBA at the moment....

However there is no denying that the AFAP has done damage to it's credibility by recommending at pilot forums that pilots should accept the EBA while full well knowing that it is a poor document in all respects.

A few weeks ago, we had meetings with the AFAP that presented a package on offer. Our pilot council (well, the members of same that had any balls) were against said offer, where a certain AFAP "big gun" suggested that this is as good as it gets. The membership were almost universally disgusted with both the offer and the assertions of the AFAP.

The key issues were lifestyle. Herein lies an uncanny parallel with DJ pilots, it seems.

Fortunately, those on our Pilot Council with balls saw fit to go back to the negotiating table with the aim of sorting this out...

Well, things didn't go so well, and we ended up with a stop-work meeting.

Once again, we stood almost unanimous with regard to those lifestyle issues that you too are faced with.

Those people went back to the Company again, and it appears a satisfactory solution may be forthcoming.

The point I am making is threefold:
1. The AFAP is gun-shy (which I have alluded to in other threads) and does not appear to have their customers' interests (YOU) at heart;
2. The key to successful negotiations is having strong representatives on your pilot council;
3. You guys (as we are) are paying a premium for union representation. Unions are a service industry. If they are not meeting your SERVICE expectations - find another.

[hvy 18 wheeler]

I pay 4 % to my union to represent my interests.
Maybe you should form your own union and stop buying bad help from the one you mention here.


Money well spent i think.

:o

[Dehavillanddriver]

Apart from lifestyle problems I wonder what DJ and Eastern have in common - G...... I wonder?

[Interceptor]

Not sure of the details but have just heard that the EBA has been withdrawn by the company/AFAP on finally realising and acknowledging of the immense dissastisfaction with the document amongst the VB pilots.

[Home Brew]

Interesting story Interceptor. Parts of the management are sounding more "asian" everyday, as it would be a big "loss of Face" to have the eba document soundly rejected. As a lot of us have worked on contracts before, we all read the bottom line, and "good intentions and best endevours" don't come into play!!

[Interceptor]

Very true Home Brew.

Talk about jumping off a losing horse.

Whilst it now may appear that the concerns of the VB pilots will be addressed by rewording parts of the EBA, one cannot be distracted from the overall picture as to why the EBA was soundly rejected.

The two main issues which are the most important are:

1. Quality of lifestyle through decent rostering and time off.

2. Proper financial reward to reflect the true status of professional airline pilots.

Once again, it is important to stay focused on the important issues and not to be distracted by the "negotiation tactics" of management.

Lastly the AFAP still remains on notice to provide the service that they are being paid to do. And that is to negotiate the best possible deal in the best interests of it's members.
Unless they do this they will certainly have a doubtful long term future in Australian aviation.

[Bugsmasha]

I wish it were that simple homebrew. Unfortunately the main sticking point, (the money,or lack of it) isn't going to be addressed. This was set by the board and they are just going to tidy up the wording on a few things. Will hardly be a dramatic change. I would suggest they dont waste there time rewording, as it will not change what the pilot group think of this agreement. May as well count up the votes then start afresh:confused: