RAF 1980's Victor K2 Co-Pilots

[COYB]

I have had an interest in this venerable aircraft, ever seeing one at an airshow as a teenager, in particular the K2 tanker variant during the latter part of the types career.

After listening to a recent podcast on the Black buck mission, I was taken to thinking about the route a pilot would take to become a HP Victor Co-Pilot during the 1980's?
Would you have gone via the jetstream at Finningley or by the Hawk fast jet route at Valley?

How long would the conversion course have taken at 232 OCU / Victor Training Unit and hour many hours the student would have flown.

[pr00ne]

I have had an interest in this venerable aircraft, ever seeing one at an airshow as a teenager, in particular the K2 tanker variant during the latter part of the types career.

After listening to a recent podcast on the Black buck mission, I was taken to thinking about the route a pilot would take to become a HP Victor Co-Pilot during the 1980's?
Would you have gone via the jetstream at Finningley or by the Hawk fast jet route at Valley?

How long would the conversion course have taken at 232 OCU / Victor Training Unit and hour many hours the student would have flown.

Depends upon when you got chopped from the Fast Jet Stream!
All pilots were recruited with the intention of being Fast Jet.
You could get chopped, sorry streamed, at many stages, from EFT through BFTS, AFTS, TWU or even on a Fast Jet OCU.
Depending on the level of performance you would be reroled Multi-Engine, Rotary or, as a sort of half way house, you could be chopped onto Canberra’s and maybe given a second chance at Fast Jet after a tour.

[BEagle]

Streaming from RAFC (and I guess lesser BFT schools) was mostly to multis before about 1973 - of a course of 10 successful JP pilots, it would probably 3 to Gnats, 6 to Pigs and 1 to Whirlwinds. But the massive cut backs to the transport fleets in 1973 pretty well stopped ME training for a while, which corresponded with the worthless Jetstream coming into service. They were then put into storage. ME refresher training continued using the Beech Baron under civil contract; a few pilots deemed unsuitable for fast jet training trained on the Andover, others did a JP course and an asymmetric Canberra lead-in for their ME OCUs. As pr00ne has indicated, in around 1976 the only chance of being restreamed to ME would be to have made it most of the way through TWU.

The wretched Jetstreams were disinterred in 1977 and post-BFT ME training began again, but whether many pilots went to the Victor OCU from ME training, I don't know.

[Get me some traffic]

Hi BEagle, you don't seem very enthused with the Jetstream. As an Air Trafficer I saw lots of them in the 80s etc and they seemed pretty reasonable unlike some. (E110, ATP, SH330/360 etc). I realise that watching is not driving but at least they could climb/descend when asked. What was wrong with them?

[Union Jack]

Perhaps Tankertrashnav has some helpful recollections?

Jack

[chevvron]

Hi BEagle, you don't seem very enthused with the Jetstream. As an Air Trafficer I saw lots of them in the 80s etc and they seemed pretty reasonable unlike some. (E110, ATP, SH330/360 etc). I realise that watching is not driving but at least they could climb/descend when asked. What was wrong with them?
Did an hours circuit bashing in the back of one at Leeming in '79 and they seemed OK.
EXCEPT the Chiefy told us he'd had instructions from Turbomeca to change the oil from 90 to 80 weight and they'd had one or two problems straight away.

[WHBM]

If it's the original Handley Page Jetstream with the Turbomeca engines, experience with the (few) USA commuter operators was it was a maintenance and support nightmare and is felt to have led directly to the failure of some operators.

The substantially reworked aircraft with Garratt engines and other refinements, built by BAe at Prestwick, was a completely different case, and sold several hundred in the USA alone, as well as many more elsewhere.

[deltahotel]

Astazou engines

[BEagle]

Terrible engines, absurdly complicated systems and abysmal handling qualities.

As Gp Capt Tom Eeles wrote: "The engines were far too complex, controlled by a myriad of micro-switches. It was difficult to land and very noisy inside. The view from thr flight deck, whilst adequate for take-off, transit along an airway and landing, was not really good enough for lookout in a busy circuit or during general handling. It was far from ideal as a multi-engine pilot training aircraft."

An ETPS chap once said the "The Hercules would make an ideal training aeroplane for Jetstream pilots".

It truly was abysmal!

[Herod]

Whereas the Varsity was truly a "Gentleman's Horseless Carriage"

[Get me some traffic]

Thanks for that BEagle. GMST

[Innominate]

The view from thr flight deck, whilst adequate for take-off, transit along an airway and landing, was not really good enough for lookout in a busy circuit or during general handling. It was far from ideal as a multi-engine pilot training aircraft.

Another case of the government buying something from a British firm to try to keep the manufacturer afloat? It was never designed for pilot training.

[culloden]

I completed training on Jet Provost Mk 3 and 5 then the Varsity before being posted to Victor Mk 1 tankers in 1972 if that is of interest?

[India Four Two]

then the Varsity before being posted to Victor Mk 1 tankers

The only thing I can think off that they have in common is asymmetric thrust capability. Otherwise they couldn't be farther apart!

I had a ride in a Varsity in 1967 from Binbrook to Shawbury. The navigator was using Gee for our airways crossing! He was getting complaints from ATC because his fixes didn't match with the controller's radar picture.

[WHBM]

As Gp Capt Tom Eeles wrote: "The engines were far too complex, controlled by a myriad of micro-switches. It was difficult to land and very noisy inside. The view from the flight deck, whilst adequate for take-off, transit along an airway and landing, was not really good enough for lookout in a busy circuit or during general handling. It was far from ideal as a multi-engine pilot training aircraft."

I recall being seated just behind the semi-divider on an American Airlines Jetstream into LAX, joining the intense throng there under radar vectors. The FO was nearly twisting his neck off keeping a very good lookout all round for what might be in conflict. It was the BAe rejig with different engines and systems, but the same airframe design.

The James Bond skydive in Moonraker is actually from an original Turbomeca Astrazou-powered Jetstream, of Apollo Airways, a onetime California commuter operator, used in the film without changing the branding. A contact used to work in the office for them, and their successor, Pacific Coast, and said both lost their investment and went out of business mainly due to tech issues with the Jetstream's engines. There are photos of the filming, and a discussion by onetime pilots, here :

James Bond Locations: Back from the African job - Apollo Airways (https://jamesbondlocations.********.com/2012/10/back-from-african-job-apollo-airways.html)

[bean]

Another case of the government buying something from a British firm to try to keep the manufacturer afloat? It was never designed for pilot training.
The Jetstreams were bought after the demise of HP

[rolling20]

I completed training on Jet Provost Mk 3 and 5 then the Varsity before being posted to Victor Mk 1 tankers in 1972 if that is of interest?
Seeing as there has been thread drift, I'd like to hear about the Victor MK1.
Ok the thread is about MK2's, but it's a step in the right direction.