Seat and Seniority

[BOING]

I need comments from pilots who are paid by seat and seniority about how well it works. Specifically, did anyone work for an airline when the transition was made from the traditional pay scheme to S&S? How was the transition period handled? What was the final comparison between top pay under the traditional scheme and the same job under the new scheme? How were pensions calculated under the S&S scheme? In your individual position was it a good thing or bad thing for you?

Would really appreciate any input at all. Please coment on this forum or to my e-mail address if you think it more appropriate.

[Otterman]

Sorry, but the question is not quite clear to me. Not sure what a traditional pay scheme is or what S & S means to you. I have only flown for the this one airline, and that makes their scheme traditional I guess.

My airline has different “brands” serving different segments of the market. At our mainline operation the cruise relief pilots and F/O’s up to (not including) wide-bodies are paid according to their seniority. They are split into four pay-segments, and your seniority determines the pay you get. The wide-body F/O’s are split into two groups, seniority determining the pay you get. Among the Captains it is strictly the aircraft that you are on which determines your paycheck. This explanation oversimplifies our pay-scheme a bit, because things like age, years of service, and daily allowances also play an important role in your final paycheck.

Our pension starts with a basic pension (really low) and to that is added a payment based on your years of service; it increases by 2.25% per year based on that year’s salary. So my pension = base pension + (years of service x 2.25% x average pay during my career). Most of our pilots are able to get in around 32 years of service. It is guaranteed, and as per law in our country, totally independent of our company. Works out to around 60% of your final pay for an average career. For me about a 110,000 Euro pension starting at age 56. For guys out of the Air Force starting in their early thirties it works out to about half that amount (but they have an Air Force pension as well)

The way we are paid seems to work quite well. Although as usual there are people who would like to see it changed. The junior guys are stuck at a pay level that they consider too low for too long, during periods of stagnation. And some of our more senior 737 Captains (most of whom are still there, because they develop sleep problems on the intercontinental fleet) would like to see a scheme introduced which would see you purely get paid by seniority and function (Captain’s one pay, F/O’s and S/O another). But that is more than normal, can’t please all of the people all of the time.

At our large charter subsidiary pay is strictly along the lines of Captains and F/O’s, regardless of the type you fly. I know our union has looked at this scheme for the mainline operation and has time and again come to the conclusion that it is not the right way to go for that side of the business. Hope it helps a bit, got luck with the search for answers. Regards, Otterman.

Ps. would be more than interested in a website that would present a true independent and up to date benchmark for our industry.

[BOING]

Thanks for the reply Otterman. I suppose I have been in what I call the "traditional" pattern so long I forget people may have joined in the "Seat and Seniority" system.

"Traditional" to me is when pilot pay depends upon your position, your seniority and the aircraft type you fly. To me "Seat and Seniority" is when your pay only depends upon your position and your seniority. For example, a 15 year captain on a 737 has the same base pay as a 15 year captain on a 767. It looks as though your charter operation is what I would call "Seat and Seniority".

At our company we get massive swings in training volumes every time we change business plans, costs are massive. Also, as with your company no doubt, pilots must change aircraft to make higher pay. I cannot help thinking there must be some trade off between the company saving training costs and the pilots getting an easier life which would make "Seat and Seniority" beneficial to both.

[Otterman]

Thanks Boing that makes it clearer for me. I guess my company does a bit of both then. Using the “seat and seniority” scheme for the F/O’s (Europe) and S/O’s being lumped into one group. The F/O’s (wide-body) into another, in both seniority determining the pay you get.
After that it is more traditional with the Captain’s being paid strictly along type (regardless of seniority). I fly for the mainline at a major European carrier, and like I said; at our other subsidiaries I know that different models are used. As a frame of reference we have around 2200 mainline pilots, maybe that makes a difference as to what system is used. Can't complain. Regards, Otterman.

[Zico]

My company has about the same number of mainline pilots as that of Otterman. Also a major european carrier.
We use strictly seat and senority.
Both Capt´s and F/O´s are paid according to years of service. Separate payscales of course. But pay has nothing to do with type.
We have a payscalesystem of 29 years. So after 29 years of service your pay doesn´t increase anymore.
Pension is a percentage of salary. All paid by company.
This system suits me perfect. I like shorthaul, and I don´t feel any need to move into longhaul, to up my pay.