Air NZ RPPP (regional pilot priority process)

[Skankhunt]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the Rppp at Airnz. Will it last? Is it worth staying or is the side door still the best option if a new hire? Hearing mixed reviews.

[KiwiAvi8er]

It would depend what your goals are? How far down the RSL you sit etc.

If your goal is to get in to a jet asap then obviously you would look at other operators. If you’re wanting reasonable career stability then the Regionals have a few things going for it; you’ll likely get a command in any base you wish once you’ve reached the hour requirements. Job security is decent (for aviation) and if they eventually get rid of that B-scale blended pay then the $$ you’ll earn will be reasonable (just maybe not for Auckland).

Plenty of speculation on the longevity of the RPPP. It definitely has its flaws. If they scrap it then ideally they’ll scrap the 8 year lock out from direct entry jet which is way too extreme.

[ElZilcho]

The numbers already show the Links will be unable to supply enough Pilots next. If FO's start leaving for jobs in Aussie this will only exacerbate things. If Air NZ use "Tag and release", they'll quickly find the pool of externals will dry up as it did last time. No one wants to Join a slow progression Airline behind 100 reserved numbers.
Secondly, we currently have more Pilots on performance reviews and gardening leave than ever before. Nothing against Regional Pilots, most of them have no issues transitioning to Jet, however, some of them do and with the filter removed a small minority are becoming a huge problem.

Reality is, the RPPP is an absolute mess but none of us know how long the Company is going to persist with it nor what things will look like next.
There's a few rumors floating around that this new "Low hour Pilot program" is going to result in another push for Cadet SO's.
Rumor also has it the yanks are going to start offering Visa's to Kiwi Pilots, if so, that'll really shake things up down here.

In my day, I took a quick Command in an undesirable base then left 6 months later once my bond was done. Several years later Air NZ was looking for externals and I got a call. If they didn't call, or if the interview didn't go my way, I had ~2000hrs Jet Time and was 12 months from a Command. A much better position to be in than the LHS of a Dash with another 1500 hrs T-Prop time that no one cares about. But of course, in my day there was no 8 year stand down to consider, which would of caught me out.

Leave or stay, either way you need accept the consequences of that decision if things don't go as planned. More than a few Link Pilots have left with the express intention of skipping the queue (before the 8 year stand down) and are now having to live with the consequences. Some of them lost their jobs over COVID and never recovered.
With Hindsight my career path would of looked very different over the past 20 years, but sometimes it's best to just have a stable job and not overthink things.

[MikeHatter732]

If they are struggling to fly a jet, how the hell were they flying a turboprop?

[ElZilcho]

If they are struggling to fly a jet, how the hell were they flying a turboprop?

Not sure if this is a serious question. Turbo-props might be considered “harder” day to day because of more visual approaches to non-ils equipped regional ports, but that has very little to do with anything.

Jets are less forgiving and whatever the underlying reason, some just struggle to transition.
Landing is a common theme, either flaring too high or not at all. Flying the Jet like they’re still in a T-Prop.
Some struggle with energy management. You can’t just “disc up” a Jet if you get hot and high. Turn off the automatics and SA goes out the window in some cases.
In other cases, it was sheer arrogance (or laziness). Not doing any prep work or study because “I’ve been flying up and down NZ for 10 years” apparently translates to flying 240 EDTO up to LA.

It can be easy to sit back and scratch our heads as to why, but the truth is it’s a different skill set and some just can’t adjust be it age, ability or simple laziness.

[Ollie Onion]

Having trained many Turboprop drivers onto a jet it normally has more to do with age that aircraft. Someone who has spent the last 20 years flying a turboprop on the same small regional routes often struggles to adapt to the different way of flying a jet…. Simple as that, most are fine but some older pilots seem to struggle.

[Skankhunt]

Back on to the actual topic the Rppp!
So really it's good for low hour pilots but maybe not so for guys with some experience and an Atpl. Sounds like it will be a long road. To me seems better off going side door either other jet ops in nz or Oz. Thoughts?

[BO0M]

Not sure if this is a serious question. Turbo-props might be considered “harder” day to day because of more visual approaches to non-ils equipped regional ports, but that has very little to do with anything.

Jets are less forgiving and whatever the underlying reason, some just struggle to transition.
Landing is a common theme, either flaring too high or not at all. Flying the Jet like they’re still in a T-Prop.
Some struggle with energy management. You can’t just “disc up” a Jet if you get hot and high. Turn off the automatics and SA goes out the window in some cases.
In other cases, it was sheer arrogance (or laziness). Not doing any prep work or study because “I’ve been flying up and down NZ for 10 years” apparently translates to flying 240 EDTO up to LA.

It can be easy to sit back and scratch our heads as to why, but the truth is it’s a different skill set and some just can’t adjust be it age, ability or simple laziness.

Utter rubbish (sorry).

The vaste majority of TP drivers have no issues at all with transition to jets. In fact that same number that have issues also correlates to the same number of jet guys going back to TP that have issues (and yes theres a lot of them these days). If the training system is robust enough it captures the issues so they don't occcur.

Anyone who bleats on about Jets been harder to fly than TP has probably never operated both in the left seat or is just trying to belittle others. Either way it's someone you don't want ona flight deck.

[ElZilcho]

Utter rubbish (sorry).

The vaste majority of TP drivers have no issues at all with transition to jets. In fact that same number that have issues also correlates to the same number of jet guys going back to TP that have issues (and yes theres a lot of them these days). If the training system is robust enough it captures the issues so they don't occcur.

Anyone who bleats on about Jets been harder to fly than TP has probably never operated both in the left seat or is just trying to belittle others. Either way it's someone you don't want ona flight deck.

As per my original post, I acknowledged it’s only a small minority and most have no issues. Jets aren’t “harder” and neither are T-Props. They’re simply different and the examples I gave are common areas where the few are struggling. But I stand by my comment of Jets being less forgiving if you fall behind, and yes, I have sat in the LHS of both.

The training system has been robust enough for the last 20 odd years with failures being extremely rare, until they removed the filter and it’s increased 10 fold.

[here_we_go_again]

Utter rubbish (sorry).

The vaste majority of TP drivers have no issues at all with transition to jets. In fact that same number that have issues also correlates to the same number of jet guys going back to TP that have issues (and yes theres a lot of them these days). If the training system is robust enough it captures the issues so they don't occcur.

Anyone who bleats on about Jets been harder to fly than TP has probably never operated both in the left seat or is just trying to belittle others. Either way it's someone you don't want ona flight deck.
Not to wish to, you know, use facts to correct the narrative but plenty under/having been under training reviews sit in a slightly different seat to new hires and came through a rather different interview process (but here on PPRUNE we have the world according to MG so take that as you will).

[Skankhunt]

So back on topic the Rppp!

Sounds like it won’t last so only good for new hires with low hours as the wait will be long.
And anyone with some experience and Atpl at least, better off going to any Nz or Oz jet ops and join via side door like everyone used to. Been told externals already been given start dates. So Rppp just really used to lock Tprop guys in.
thoughts?

[Bmozzle]

As per my original post, I acknowledged it’s only a small minority and most have no issues. Jets aren’t “harder” and neither are T-Props. They’re simply different and the examples I gave are common areas where the few are struggling. But I stand by my comment of Jets being less forgiving if you fall behind, and yes, I have sat in the LHS of both.

The training system has been robust enough for the last 20 odd years with failures being extremely rare, until they removed the filter and it’s increased 10 fold.

The filter you talk about? I hate to break it to you but it is the same filter that people have to pass through to go to TP anyway. Statistically, there will always be a small minority that may have issues in times of increased hiring. This would be the case even if TP pilots were forced into 2nd interviews OR if hiring was 100% external.

6 Months in the LHS of a B1900d doesn't count sorry, that operation is so far removed from the modern TP environment.

If the training system is so robust why is it being changed? Turns out it has nothing to do with the people it's training and more to do with it being out of step with other airlines.

Increased 10-fold, lol.... as demonstrated from previous posts on a variety of threads, you don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[ElZilcho]

So back on topic the Rppp!

Sounds like it won’t last so only good for new hires with low hours as the wait will be long.
And anyone with some experience and Atpl at least, better off going to any Nz or Oz jet ops and join via side door like everyone used to. Been told externals already been given start dates. So Rppp just really used to lock Tprop guys in.
thoughts?

Yes externals are slowly being given starts but it's not likely to ramp up until next year. Unions and management have had a few meetings around solving the current recruitment issues but no outcome as yet.
The RPPP was always intended to lock T-Prop Pilots in, that's the only reason it exists. Regionals had a turnover problem with Pilots leaving for J* etc so the Company dangled the carrot while also threatening an 8 year stand down (it was 2, but selectively enforced) if you leave.

The filter you talk about? I hate to break it to you but it is the same filter that people have to pass through to go to TP anyway. Statistically, there will always be a small minority that may have issues in times of increased hiring. This would be the case even if TP pilots were forced into 2nd interviews OR if hiring was 100% external.

6 Months in the LHS of a B1900d doesn't count sorry, that operation is so far removed from the modern TP environment.

If the training system is so robust why is it being changed? Turns out it has nothing to do with the people it's training and more to do with it being out of step with other airlines.

Increased 10-fold, lol.... as demonstrated from previous posts on a variety of threads, you don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I can see where this is going. If you have more accurate information you'd like to share then by all means, I'm happy to be corrected,

Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we've had a spike in training issues since RPPP removed the filter. Perhaps the training system is outdated even though the vast majority are going through without issue.
Or perhaps, a small group of Pilots, whatever the reason, were simply not able to cope with the change and have become a Jet fleet Problem.

[deadcut]

6 Months in the LHS of a B1900d doesn't count sorry, that operation is so far removed from the modern TP environment.



Oh but a dash 8 does? Lol!

[RubberDogPoop]

If the training system is so robust why is it being changed? Turns out it has nothing to do with the people it's training and more to do with it being out of step with other airlines.

Err, it’s being changed because some muppet changed the recruitment process. RPPP is a recruitment function, not a training one.

[Skankhunt]

Numbers are out already at 10% external hire. Likely increase next year.

[haughtney1]

As per my original post, I acknowledged it’s only a small minority and most have no issues. Jets aren’t “harder” and neither are T-Props. They’re simply different and the examples I gave are common areas where the few are struggling. But I stand by my comment of Jets being less forgiving if you fall behind, and yes, I have sat in the LHS of both.

The training system has been robust enough for the last 20 odd years with failures being extremely rare, until they removed the filter and it’s increased 10 fold.

What filter do you speak of? was that the dreaded "jet" interview?
Pray tell how a sim assessment can really identify a training risk when there is a good chunk of info in an existing training file.
The amount of hubris evident in your comments El Zilcho suggests that you have either lost touch with reality or, more likely have an axe to grind over TP pilots being less than worthy......
Perhaps it's worth remembering that training failures are just as much the responsibility of the programme and the trainers as they are of the candidate. A 10 fold increase in failures suggests the programme isnt fit for purpose, rather than an issue with the trainees.
FWIW I've also trained plenty experienced TP pilots through jet transitions, and the issues you've mentioned have all arisen, funnily enough root + cause and a little EBT ensured a pass rate well above 99%.
Perhaps the robust system (or culture) you speak of requires a little bit of modernization

[ElZilcho]

What filter do you speak of? was that the dreaded "jet" interview?
Pray tell how a sim assessment can really identify a training risk when there is a good chunk of info in an existing training file.
The amount of hubris evident in your comments El Zilcho suggests that you have either lost touch with reality or, more likely have an axe to grind over TP pilots being less than worthy......
Perhaps it's worth remembering that training failures are just as much the responsibility of the programme and the trainers as they are of the candidate. A 10 fold increase in failures suggests the programme isnt fit for purpose, rather than an issue with the trainees.
FWIW I've also trained plenty experienced TP pilots through jet transitions, and the issues you've mentioned have all arisen, funnily enough root + cause and a little EBT ensured a pass rate well above 99%.
Perhaps the robust system (or culture) you speak of requires a little bit of modernization

I don't have an axe to grind against T-Prop Pilots. Most Air NZ Jet Pilots, myself included, came from T-Props at some point in our careers and we overwhelmingly voted in favor of the Pathways project because we recognized how poorly Air NZ has handled Regional transitions in the past... many went through it first hand.
However, as it was with the Joint Seniority list proposal pre-COVID and now with the RPPP, any objections or issues raised around the specifics of the pathway results in accusations of being "Anti Turbo-Prop". And while the focus of this discussion has centered around my comment of training issues, it's actually a very small component of my objection to the RPPP. In hindsight I shouldn't have been drawn into multiple replies over the initial comment.

Prior to the RPPP (which is a 90:10 internal/external ratio) the Company failed to maintain a 70:30 ratio because the T-Prop fleets simply couldn't sustain the turn-over. This resulted in what's been called the "Link Ban" and massive external hiring. If 70% was not sustainable then how are they going to manage 90%? Rather telling that in the recent Glint survey, Jet Pilots are expressing concerns over the RPPP while Regional Pilots are " generally happy with it", yet concerned about the looming external Recruitment numbers, not to mention the number of Junior Link FO's who are crunching the numbers and considering the 8 year stand down for leaving.

The dirty truth is, the RPPP set out to do one thing. Solve the problem of Link Pilots leaving for Jetstar by threatening them with punitive measures for leaving. It was signed off (and mostly written by) the Regional Council, a well established old boys club because it gave them what they wanted. This is the same group that agreed to the Blended PayScale's, which many Regional Pilots are now realizing is a B scale in disguise.

In regards to my comments about a filter, I was not advocating a return of the "dreaded Jet interview". Again, a Regional Pathway was always needed and supported, but it went from an excessive 2 day interview to no filter at all. Existing training files would be a great resource to identify training risks yes, if they were being reviewed. You can root cause and EBT most things, even modernize the training department, but none of that can fix certain attitudes... and if those attitudes had been filtered out, their places would of been filled with other Regional Pilots, just as it was prior to the RPPP.