Conundrum ; What bird to own for PPL (H) [Archive]

HoYeah

6th Sep 2023, 04:46

Ok about myself; located in eastern part of Canada, retired, early 50’s, time on my hands and disposable income to spare. About to embark into fulfilling something I’ve dreamed about since my first flight into a 206 40 years ago, I’m getting my PPL (H) this winter.

Been looking at so many posts on so many forums, been talking to flight school and whoever wanted to share their own stories but still no clear answers ; What bird to acquire?!

How many hours will I log every year; who knows?! 20-50-100-500?!… I currently don’t have a f’n clue!?

I won’t be chartering😝, it’s for myself and the wife, kiddo and the 🐱, other than that is going to be to travel from the city to the cabin, occasional hunting and fishing trip, day trips or weekends. Possible that in 5 years time, leisure trips in northern Canada, cross country trips, NF, Labrador, Yukon, Alaska, stuff like that. A buddy of mine planned a trip across the USA all the way down to Brazil and back, that looks like fun!…

What I get as far as answers when I ask around and try to figure out about the available birds in Canada:

Robinsons; I just find them plain ugly, just a personal taste. The 2000 hour /numbers of remaining years scheme, every other one’s theory on calculation or definition of what’s economically sound, bla bla bla

I like MD500, but then you get the “…how will you service it?!… there is going to be a very few accredited service center, everyone is getting away from them, pax in the back are cramped Etc. Etc

I kinda still like the 206, but then I get the “…it’s old, parts are scares…” not comfortable with pax in the back, steam guages and and on and on…

I like the EC120B very much, then I get, “..it’s under powered…” weight and balance problem, tail authority problem, altitude etc…

AS350’s excellent workhorse, operating costs are high, maintenance is expensive, 3 blades is a hangar problem like the EC for thst matter

I can appreciate the 505’s but then get the “… I want 3 blade on my machine…”, it’s just a “face lifted” jet-ranger, you can have more value for less cash and on and on and on.

Then you have all of the flight schools that are pushing you to the R44 or the type of bird they have on the fleet allegedly to be your “best bet”.

And on the other topics I get the “low timer” insurance cost speech for turbine $$$, pushing me to the R44 as a “ better value “ “…do your hours in a 44 then after a few years upgrade…” speech.

If I need to fly 500-1000hrs on a 44 to be able to ” afford “ insurance on a turbine, that raises questions, the cost of entry is quite steep ?!.. why bother?!

I don’t think that I have decades ahead of me, I want to jump in now.

So I’m still confused.

What you guys think about it?! What bird to fly if you were in my shoes?!…

Widewoodenwingswork

6th Sep 2023, 06:24

It sound's like you're just an average private owner (except the part about wanting to fly it to Brazil), so just get a R44 and be done with it. Easy to fly, easy to maintain, easy to push into a hangar by yourself (with the EZ Wheels) etc etc etc. Everything else is a pain in the ass, too big, too much grease, too expensive, too slow etc etc. The Robinson is the best selling machine in the world for a reason.

From what you've told us, it will be almost perfect. If you find it doesn't match your needs, then you'll have a much better idea of which machine will, you can sell the R44 and you'll be no worse off.

Hurry up! Time is ticking and those fine motor skills are deteriorating!

Hughes500

6th Sep 2023, 06:49

Hope this helps as i have owned and run most machine except a Robinson product

206 slow ( 100 knots ) wallows around in any wind, hard pushed to lift 5 people and a load of fuel as it is too heavy for the engine ( around 1900 lbs empty )
500 D or E ( 125 knots ) flies like a jet fighter hard pushed to get 5 in it but will lift everyone off the ground, due to its cruise speed cheaper to run than a 206, probably the most fun to fly. Sort after machines so expensive but you wont loose any money.
341 gazelle ( 125 knots )a french version of a 500 in terms of performance, seats 5 with a bag locker, i guess a problem maintaining across the pond
120 replaced the 341 but didnt have the performance of the 341 !!!!!
350 the best jack of all trades but can be eye wateringly expensive to maintain when the modules come up, pretty bomb proof, but overkill for what you want . You would need a B2 ( but a 12 year inspection around $ 175k to $ 200k)
Other consideration is keeping fuel at home, much easier to store Jet A 1 at home than Avgas ( in UK ) . If you cant have fuel at home dont bother with a machine. Most machines only have around 2.5 to 3 hours endurance, so if having to go to local airport to fill up that becomes a pain in the arse and increases costs.
All machines need to be hangered

paco

6th Sep 2023, 07:02

Airbus machines are nice to fly but a pain to operate unless you have a friendly source of parts. We used to send our gearboxes to Canada (from the UK) rather than France, or we would be on the ground most of the time. They may, of course, have got their act together since then. The Bell attitude to customers is far superior.

It may be old technology, but I have found that a well set up Longranger is an absolute pleasure to fly long term. As is the 407, of course.

The Gazelle and 500 are also fine ships, but on long journeys? It's like driving a sports car rather than a nice saloon. The gazelle is somewhere in the middle.

The average cost of a robbie per hour turns out to be very steep when all is said and done due to the stripdown, and there's nowhere to put any luggage, which is why the Cabri sells, it at least has a (very small) compartment for a suitcase.

bront

6th Sep 2023, 07:14

HX50............ Ok that was a joke.

R44. The best to do your license in and will probably get the job done for what you want to do after that. A year or 3 down the road, if you really love doing this and want something bigger/better, then you will probably have had the opportunity to fly in and evaluate other types.

If you don't do many hours per year, then it may be better to hire and fly once you have your license.

Good luck.

HoYeah

6th Sep 2023, 14:41

Thank you guys for the replies,

Robinsons, I’ll need to really get over the looks of that thing because it’s an eye sore if you ask me.

Most MD on the market at this time at the N ones, very few E or D.

other that cost, what’s the point to get your ticket on a R44 instead of a turbine? From the outside I’d rather have those hours under my belt on a turbine instead of going piston then be fresh again and restart for an other ticket on a 2nd type? What is it I don’t get?

CGameProgrammerr

6th Sep 2023, 17:31

Considering it sounds like your flights may be high-altitude, the R66 is definitely worth looking at, and a new one costs about the same as what any of the other options cost used. It also has a dedicated baggage compartment (in addition to under-seat storage) and you can get extended-range fuel tanks that occupy part of that baggage compartment if desired.

HoYeah

7th Sep 2023, 15:02

@Hughes500 I’m guessing that you’rea but biased but the 500 always comes back to me… they seems to be real sweet machines!

Ascend Charlie

8th Sep 2023, 01:59

Go for a ride in the back seat of a 500 and see what you think afterwards.

Agile

8th Sep 2023, 02:41

Go for a ride in the back seat of a 500 and see what you think afterwards.
coming from an AS350 back seat will feel cramped, but coming from an R44 the 500 will feel just fine.

HoYeah

8th Sep 2023, 02:59

Go for a ride in the back seat of a 500 and see what you think afterwards.

Why would I do that?!… I’m flying the thing for me self not come along’s….

Or what I am missing here?…

Robbiee

8th Sep 2023, 03:35

I'd just buy an R22 and move to a tropical island.

Agile

8th Sep 2023, 03:58

Why would I do that?!… I’m flying the thing for me self not come along’s….

Or what I am missing here?…

there is a point that as you ride at the back, you get to understand the experience at the back, the angle of view, the vibrations, the ease to talk to the front
let us face it: part of the fun, flying in front is "wow" the back passengers have an amazing experience.

I once took an important business friend at the back of the R44, I knew he had severe cronic back pain, he could not stand up for longer than 10 min in general because of that..
I could feel his knees on my pilot seat backrest as he repositioned himself during the whole flight, it was an amazing flight but he strugled to walk out of the aircraft, I know now it was a mistake.

Later I took fiends in the back of the AS350, and the leg space is great, you put your hand hag on the floor, a night and day expereince.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x378/backseat_777285aec815a9e1b758caf6166dc03c30787280.png
R44 - H500 - AS350

HoYeah

8th Sep 2023, 04:54

there is a point that as you ride at the back, you get to understand the experience at the back, the angle of view, the vibrations, the ease to talk to the front
let us face it: part of the fun, flying in front is "wow" the back passengers have an amazing experience.

I own 911’s and I’d never sit in the back, but do I enjoy driving them? Hell yeah! You want to come along and sit in the back, no problem 😜

Hughes500

8th Sep 2023, 05:42

Lets be honest there is no perfect machine

1. Cheap and nasty Robinson
2. Goes like **** off a shovel MD 500
3. jack of all trades but expensive AS 350
4. Goes bloody well but difficult to maintain SA 341
5. Ugly but space Enstrom 480
6. Best spares support but expensive to buy B407
7. Pity about the engine B 505
8. pretty useless Ec 120

rudestuff

8th Sep 2023, 05:48

You're flying it. Get the coolest thing which is obviously a 500. If the guys in the back don't like it they can walk.

Milo450

8th Sep 2023, 19:11

Have you thought about a 206L3 the long ranger very similar in cost to the jet ranger to run. Lots of room very nice to fly. Lots of power for what you are planning to do with it. A well looked after one is a really nice bit of gear.

HoYeah

8th Sep 2023, 19:47

MLHeliwrench

8th Sep 2023, 20:41

If you have a 911 and only care about the front seats the obvious choice is a MD500. You will have the most fun flying it and its quick. Who cares if a couple times a year you have to fly it a bit further for maintenance. Helicopters cost money, but keep up on the maintenance and you will have an asset that's always worth that money when you sell in the future.

For best all round - I would take a serious look at a 206L3 (or L1 converted to L3). Great compromise of power, speed and economics. The airbus products kill you on the calendar items, both airframe and engine. This sucks as a private guy doing 50-300 hours a year.

The absolute best money you can spend when purchasing a helicopter is to have a very detailed pre-purchase inspection done. Get your PPH on a piston wherever, but come out to BC for a mountain flying course in a turbine. Chinook and Top flight are great mountain schools. These skills thought by very experienced instructors will keep you safer on your adventures.

wrench1

8th Sep 2023, 21:22

time on my hands and disposable income to spare.
Disposable income relative to the aircraft and how you will have it supported in your area. From strictly a maintenance point what support system you will have can make an impact on your yearly budget. Same with insurance costs.

Another important question, do you plan to use your own helicopter for training and obtaining your tickets? In several instances had a private owner train in a school R44, get his certificate, build some time, then go out and buy a turbine.

Since you like the 206, still a decent support network around. And a solid aircraft. For an upgrade get a 407GXi or a used GX. Glass up front and go places. Not a fan of the 505 but then again the drivetrain is same as an L-4.

As to the Airbus models factory support has always been an issue. Can't help you the 500s and not current on their support abilities.

HoYeah

8th Sep 2023, 22:50

Get your PPH on a piston wherever, but come out to BC for a mountain flying course in a turbine. Chinook and Top flight are great mountain schools. These skills thought by very experienced instructors will keep you safer on your adventures.

great advise, thank you ! I like adventures and that sounds like fun and useful !!

Bravo73

9th Sep 2023, 10:25

HX50............ Ok that was a joke.

The irony is that if/when the HX50 is ever ready, it would probably be the ideal aircraft for the OP. The OP sounds like exactly the sort of customer that Dr Hill has in mind for his helicopter.

HoYeah

9th Sep 2023, 13:36

The irony is that if/when the HX50 is ever ready, it would probably be the ideal aircraft for the OP. The OP sounds like exactly the sort of customer that Dr Hill has in mind for his helicopter.

even tho they say they have something like « 600 some bookings », can’t help to wonder ;

1- is going to be experimental and reliable?

2- will it just ever be ?…

you can put a hell of a show with that deposit money.

Just saying,…

Bravo73

10th Sep 2023, 07:36

can’t help to wonder ;

1- is going to be experimental and reliable?

2- will it just ever be ?…

You can find lots & lots of discussion about those very points in this thread:

https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/628019-hill-helicopters-hx50.html

Hot and Hi

10th Sep 2023, 09:00

You will only know what you want to fly after a few hundred hours of flying. It is pointless trying to make this decision at the beginning. Rent or buy what you like now, and then change later, if you feel like.

One last question - for the benefit of the 500 recommenders: your 911, does it have PDK or manual?

Hughes500

10th Sep 2023, 10:11

HoYeah

The best thing you can do is go and speak to the owners of the machines that interest you. These are the people that write the cheques sit in them and do what you want to do. A lot on this website dont pay the bills or run the machines so be careful what you listen to.
EG Not sure where the fly it a long way and comfort comes from, one can do almost anything to seats to make them comfortable as long as you fit the 80th percentile .Having owned and run most of these types I can safely say from a point of knowledge. Yes I am a 500 fan but I am very aware of her short comings, as i am with the 206's that i have had along with the 350's and 341's. It is horses for courses, there is no ideal machine

Petit-Lion

11th Sep 2023, 18:43

CGameProgrammerr

11th Sep 2023, 19:05

There are definitely lots of places that will rent a helicopter for you in the US, but it's much harder than renting an airplane - they all require a demonstration of proficiency first, so you'd need to spend 2-3 hours with them the first time you rent from them. And the cost is exactly the same as just flying with a CFI present.

I ended up buying my own helicopter, but had seriously looked into renting and even arranged for a checkout flight.

Hughes500

11th Sep 2023, 21:12

HoYeah

Jump on a plane and come to the UK and i will get you a go in most types ( have to pay the owners obviously )

twinstar_ca

11th Sep 2023, 22:28

Go onto the Vertical Forums and look for a gentleman by the handle of Blue Thunder... He could likely give you a lot of the information you're looking for...

HoYeah

12th Sep 2023, 00:47

There is no self-fly rentals near Montréal, and I think nowhere in America. You will be a low-time, high-risk pilot for the next 500 hours, and the industry is ruled by insurers, so the only option is buy your ship (R44 best choice), self-insure while you learn, sell it, then buy your dream machine. R44 depreciation is tricky, the best bet is to buy a new or freshly overhauled ship. I got lucky, I just sold mine for more than I paid two years ago.

Thank you, appreciate you taking the time to reply.

1- Self-insure? Why so many ppl here are suggesting to put your bird on the flight school chart? What’s the catch?

2- 500h how long did you take to accumulate, 2 years? What did you upgrade with? Saw a red R44 again today low and steady… I’m sooo not attracted to them😞😓 ho well…

HoYeah

12th Sep 2023, 00:50

HoYeah

Jump on a plane and come to the UK and i will get you a go in most types ( have to pay the owners obviously )

I’ll keep this invitation in my back pocket😋 you’d be surprised!…

Rotorbee

12th Sep 2023, 15:29

What about the following. Start your training on anything. I would suggest the R44, the H300 or the Cabri. Whatever is near you and readily available. Go through the PPL as fast as possible. Just get it done with a good school (which does not want up front payment. Payment as you go is one sign for a good school). After the PPL you know, if you are still hot for flying helicopters. The whole theory part isn't easy peasy for everybody and you would not be the first one to stop flying because the whole theory stuff was just too much or too boring. But it is important and knowing the rules is life saving. You have to stay sharp on this part as long as you fly. There is a reason, why they call the Bonanza the doctor killer.
After that, continue towards the CPL and IFR. During this time you can start to fly other ships. I would even suggest the Bell 47 and the Enstroms. Get your hands on anything with a rotor. Try them out. Build hours. Take other courses like mountain flying or sling load. You can take the factory course at Bell or MD for their ships. Good way to get that turbine stuff under control. And you could fly the MD520 or B505. Do the CPL and the IFR. Makes you a better pilot. All that should also help you, when talking to the insurance.
Now is the time where you can say, which helicopter you like. Some have horrible seats, some are loud, shake like mad, some have strange quirks or everything together. The helicopter has to fit to you when you sit in it. The looks are really secondary. Not every pilot likes the MD500 for example. It is a bit like cars, you would not see me dead in a truck, I prefer small and sporty. Others want SUV's. Worst car class there is ... ok, after the trucks. And one thing you should not underestimate. During this time you will meet a lot of people from the industry and they may have some good suggestions what to look for, too.
I wonder why nobody has suggested Enstrom? I personally find them ugly, but they are save and reliable ships. Best in class, if you want to believe their website.
Agusta 119 could also be a candidate. Best looking helicopter of it's class from my view.
BTW 500 hours before you buy a ship is a good goal. After that you should fly 100 hours per year to stay competent. Once per month just does not do it. Therefore you should have a plan, what to do with the helicopter. But ideas will come with time.

Agile

13th Sep 2023, 01:49

Do the CPL and the IFR. Makes you a better pilot. Buying your own ship (anything powerfull and turbine) without a CPL in mind is a bit short sighted. Once you first get to fly private with your PPL in hand, there is a sort of honeymoon where it’s really great to fly (6 months or so), enjoy the capability of the helicopter on some easy VFR flights, bring the friends along.... but soon enough you get into some close calls, or cases where you wish that you would have done better as a pilot, and even cases where luck was the reason you came back. In other words, reality hits, you can either supress that feeling or engage a CPL, I didn’t succeed in the former, so I choose the later. CPL study really put me back on my feet.
After that you should fly 100 hours per year to stay competent. Once per month just does not do it.
Its hard to practice helicopter flying without making it a main activity with a dedication to keep learning. Even better would be to befriend somebody who is a really great instructor and able to check on you to keep you in top piloting shape.

Rotorbee

13th Sep 2023, 04:40

Since only Agile and me are talking about the elephant in the room ... normally people on this forum ask how to become a helicopter pilot and not what helicopter to buy before they even get to the PPL stage. I would suggest, that you do a bit of soul searching and ask yourself, do I want to learn to fly or do I want a new toy? Flying in general is serious business. We have discussed many accidents here, where we were puzzled what happened and in the end it was just utter stupidity. Famous people have died, because they sought a helicopter is just a toy. Many have convinced examiners to be dedicated pilots but learned, that the laws of physics are not forgiving at all. They will get you. Kill you. Or your children. Or your wife. Or the cat. Especially in helicopters. After an accident, relatives often claim "oh, he/she was such a experienced and cautious pilot" while in reality he/she was the typical Bonanza doctor. That is why we have all those rules and regulations. They are written in blood. They are there to make you safe. You have to learn them and live by them. Learning the theory will take you several hundred hours of studying.

If you have your own ship, you have to take care of the whole paperwork, too. Incomplete documentation can devaluate your ship more than a crack in the windscreen. You have to be on top of the hours flown, too, because a missed scheduled maintenance will again make your ship a paperweight. And no, you can't just fly to maintenance shop to fix the issue. Once that helicopter is on the ground with a faulty/rundown part, it stays there. This has killed many who thought to know better. Do you really want all that? You can ask somebody to manage that for you, but it will cost you, too. And again, they have to be proficient on your particular helicopter, too.

In your region around Montreal flying an MD ship isn't ideal. No service centers. When your ship is down for anything, and that could be something very minor but it will still ground you. You have to find somebody who comes to you to fix it. The only Canadian MD service center is on the west coast. Therefore you would have to fly your ship for a lot of scheduled maintenance tasks to the US and find a service center that knows the Canadian regulations, too.
In your area are mostly Robinson, Airbus and Bell ships.
You might not like it, but it think you are stuck with Robinson. BTW, not every flight school/flight instructor will train you in your own ship. A. Because they are not proficient in it, B. They prefer to rent out their own ships, C. They want to be sure, the ship is properly maintained. D. Some might do it, but will take the keys from you, to prevent you to do stupid things while they are not there (which has happened more often than you think).
There is not a lot of sense in owning your own helicopter before you have a least a PPL.

KiwiNedNZ

13th Sep 2023, 09:14

You are missing one great machine - the Bell 407. Would be ideal personal machine.

Rotorbee

13th Sep 2023, 12:20

Na, was mentioned before. But not the AW09. That's the machine anybody will want.

HoYeah

13th Sep 2023, 18:56

Buying your own ship (anything powerfull and turbine) without a CPL in mind is a bit short sighted.

Why is that?… I do agree that learning to fly; first 200-300 hours do not NEED to be in a turbine, after talking around here I got to know a few guys that bought turbine for their PPL and made their ticket on them. I must gravitate in a short sighted environment?…

Once you first get to fly private with your PPL in hand, there is a sort of honeymoon where it’s really great to fly (6 months or so), enjoy the capability of the helicopter on some easy VFR flights, bring the friends along.... but soon enough you get into some close calls, or cases where you wish that you would have done better as a pilot, and even cases where luck was the reason you came back.

In other words, reality hits, you can either supress that feeling or engage a CPL, I didn’t succeed in the former, so I choose the later. CPL study really put me back on my feet.

I’m engaging in this because:

1- I want to challenge myself in something different and It’s been in the back of my mind for ever. Would certainly add mountain flying, long line and otters in my furure training (and adding hours at the same time), CPL is not in my plans what so ever…

2- I cherish my life quite a bit, so if I can’t become a safe and capable pilot, why bother pursuing?!…

So I’m planning to do my PPL in a school that will make me a safe pilot before anything else. If that can’t be achieved then I’ll be wise enough to just walk away, my ego is in no way of being that high not to do so!

Its hard to practice helicopter flying without making it a main activity with a dedication to keep learning. Even better would be to befriend somebody who is a really great instructor and able to check on you to keep you in top piloting shape.

Before throwing numbers around I’ll take the first step. If it works well, I’m sure I’ll find endless reasons to fly, trust me😝🤪😋

Petit-Lion

13th Sep 2023, 21:30

Thank you, appreciate you taking the time to reply.

1- Self-insure? Why so many ppl here are suggesting to put your bird on the flight school chart? What’s the catch?

2- 500h how long did you take to accumulate, 2 years? What did you upgrade with? Saw a red R44 again today low and steady… I’m sooo not attracted to them😞😓 ho well…
1- Self-insure: liability only, no hull coverage if the rotors were moving at mishap.
Ship on flight school chart: Depending on your arrangement, you may have to pay in full for the mandatory commercial insurance (liability and hull), the operator will not guarantee a minimum of hours flown... So basically you take all the risks, you pay all the fixed costs, while the operator has full control on your ship.

2- I just put 140 hours on two years on this ship. Upgrading (sort of) to FW, I mean a real travelling machine :)
Yes, R44s are ugly... In fact all helicopters are ugly, but some other models were featured so often in so many movies that we got more accustomed to their ugliness ;)

Robbiee

14th Sep 2023, 01:37

...but soon enough you get into some close calls, or cases where you wish that you would have done better as a pilot, and even cases where luck was the reason you came back. In other words, reality hits, you can either supress that feeling or engage a CPL, I didn’t succeed in the former, so I choose the later. CPL study really put me back on my feet.

Its hard to practice helicopter flying without making it a main activity with a dedication to keep learning. Even better would be to befriend somebody who is a really great instructor and able to check on you to keep you in top piloting shape.

I only squeezed 500 solo/fly for fun hours out of my ppl, but this never happened to me. In fact the only time I've ever had any close calls (including one where I still don't know how I made it out alive) was in the pursuit of commercial flying.

I'd say, just stick with the ppl, simply review your ground every so often, and make (and stick to) some personal minimums, and you'll be fine. In fact, my two biggest regrets in aviation are getting my CPL and those pointless 40 hours under the hood flying holds and shooting ILS/VOR approaches.

Flying just for fun is probably the safest flying out there. Its flying for a purpose where things go wrong,...what with "get-there-itis" and what not.

,...and I only flew with an instructor when I absolutely HAD to.:E

Agile

14th Sep 2023, 04:09

not sure about that

I'd say, just stick with the ppl, simply review your ground every so often

I might sound a bit intolerant because I rode with those types,
pilot with very poor finesse, letting the speed bleed to hover while fumbling with the map
landing down wind thinking to be upwind (did you do a power check? huh no)
badly unaware of trafic or obstacles, what you gonna say that's their R44.

my two biggest regrets in aviation are getting my CPL

the EASA CPL is quite hard you won't get out until you can nail any type of autorotation (hover, 360, long-range, and mixed, like a patern to a spot)
learned some excelent techniques for managing power and became much better at staying ahead of the aircraft. in turn I got more bandwidth for the rest of the general awareness.

I only flew with an instructor when I absolutely HAD to

All my FAA instructors have been quite useless, stay away from them

Rotorbee

14th Sep 2023, 14:42

@Agile: Frankly, I have seen also both sides of the pond and I had good and bad instructors on both sides. My first instructor was in now EASA-land and frankly he was awful. I had some very good FAA instructors, who showed me, among other things, good autorotation techniques. But the main thing that kills people is CFIT in helicopters. I personally think, that there is a unjustified emphasis on autorotations in the current training scheme. My instructor for PPL and CPL was Australian trained (ex mustering pilot, and a bit crazy) and we had quite few flights, where he showed me different scenarios where I would not see obstacles. THAT was helpful.
@Robbie: Oh my. I think you don't realise how that additional training has sharpen your skills.

Rotorbee

14th Sep 2023, 14:54

@HoYea: With a PPL-Ticket fresh of the press, you are not a save pilot. As my examiner said, it is a license to learn. The CPL with it's higher standards, gives you an additional step up and a sense of accomplishment. The training is helpful. The additional theory that you would not need is just that part, what a commercial pilot can do or not. Everything else makes you a better pilot. As a private pilot, you will never get the same additional training a commercial pilot would get, because most instructors will be a bit more easy on you, because you have not trained to higher standards.
And you can tell yourself a thousand times you cherish your life. Every single pilot out there does that. And the single thing that will prevent you to be a statistic, is training. There is never too much of it.

HoYeah

14th Sep 2023, 15:00

@HoYea:. And the single thing that will prevent you to be a statistic, is training. There is never too much of it.

totally agree, that’s why (step by step) I would’nt mind taking additional training. But it does not imply CPL in its traditional form par say.

And of course I’m not implying in anyways that after a PPL, you’re an experienced pilot!, just saying that it’s the start.

Rotorbee

14th Sep 2023, 15:46

One thing about training. If you don't test it, it will be less efficient. See HoYeah, the thing is, if you do some course somewhere and you pay a lot of money for it, you will just sail trough. You are a customer and they want to make you happy. If you take a sling load course as a PPL, nobody ever is going to believe you will ever use it. If you instead go through a training with the goal of achieving a new certification, you will study hard and work for it. The examiner gets his money if you pass or not. Passing an exam is very satisfying. Assuming we are about the same age, a few years ago I deep dove into physics, especially cosmology with the help of EdX. I have later worked my way through text books about general relativity to understand more of it, but nothing gave me more pleasure and satisfaction, when I passed all the tests in those first courses. Which are, as they claim, about the standard of an undergraduate course. The satisfaction to do something to an established standard is worth the effort. If you don't have to work hard for it it is not worth it. The same goes for the CPL and IFR, you have to work hard for it, it does make you a better pilot and no courses on the side will ever give you the same satisfaction. You claim you want to do something, you always dreamed of, but from the beginning you want the easy way. Accomplishing your dream will be so much more amazing, if you set the bar high.

Robbiee

14th Sep 2023, 17:32

not sure about that

I might sound a bit intolerant because I rode with those types,
pilot with very poor finesse, letting the speed bleed to hover while fumbling with the map
landing down wind thinking to be upwind (did you do a power check? huh no)
badly unaware of trafic or obstacles, what you gonna say that's their R44.

the EASA CPL is quite hard you won't get out until you can nail any type of autorotation (hover, 360, long-range, and mixed, like a patern to a spot)
learned some excelent techniques for managing power and became much better at staying ahead of the aircraft. in turn I got more bandwidth for the rest of the general awareness.

All my FAA instructors have been quite useless, stay away from them

Well, in all fairness I've flown with some private owners who were totally accidents waiting to happen, but not all ppl's are like that.

As for that "additional training" Rotorbee? It was basically a week of 180° autos and off airport landings. Two things I was never allowed to do as a renter, lol.

Hughes500

14th Sep 2023, 20:57

Hoyeah

Best advice is find a good utility pilot , preferably one that has a load of lifting experience who is obviously an instructor. If one can lift loads all day on a line then you will find they know more about handling helicopter than almost anyone else. You will be taught how to really fly a helicopter
All the best

HoYeah

15th Sep 2023, 03:55

@HoYea: And the single thing that will prevent you to be a statistic, is training. There is never too much of it.

Great exchange, thank you guys. It is obvious that there are quite a few schools of thoughts out there regarding PPL.

@Rotorbee totally agree that the more you fly the better you should get and that includes regular training on emergency procedures and other techniques.

I’ve checked the TSB stat report on aviation for 2021: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/aviation/2021/ssea-ssao-2021.html

Here are the stats that break down the helicopter accidents in Canada per year 2011-2021.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x873/img_1360_9c4b1d4fd676c27bd371975b363d2f3bb48a46de.jpeg
Stats from 2011 to 2021

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x926/img_1361_fda42c7f51c3193c15b09ba11e0fa6d8161b8f50.jpeg
Footnotes for the same stats

For example, It shows 28 accidents in 2021; 19 for commercial and 9 for Private. Unfortunately it does not isolate flight hours and movements of Private vs Commercial and one could argue that the % for Private would be much higher than the one for Commercial.

What seems to generally transpire from your comments is basically ; CPL’s holders should be the only ones safe and qualified to fly and they should do it on a full time to be on top of things as opposed to PPL holders that just got their tickets from flight school because they’re happy to take your money and will just please you, releasing you from training as a liability. -A short resume😋-.

I’ma bit puzzled by what you’re saying. I don’t agree that getting a PPL is “a short and easy way” to achieve the dream of flying without efforts. Why would one could not get the satisfaction of achieving something by completing this training? PPL’s are not handed out in Cracker Jacks boxes as far as I know?

I also don’t really agree that taking additional training, for example long line or mountain flying would be useless, there is always something to take for any training that stays in your mind, the process of learning AND the content of what you’re learning can’t be qualify as useless just because you’re not doing it for a living. No?

Hot and Hi

15th Sep 2023, 04:19

You haven’t filled us in yet whether your Porsche is PDK, or manual.

HoYeah

15th Sep 2023, 04:43

You haven’t filled us in yet whether your Porsche is PDK, or manual.

PDK on the 992TT, if I want to go manual I need to hop in of my 240Z’s for a more mechanical experience.

Rotorbee

15th Sep 2023, 05:13

one could argue that the % for Private would be much higher than the one for Commercial
Just that we are on the same page here. The flight hours flown by commercial pilots per year are much higher than for private pilots. Especially hours flown per active pilot. And as in most countries, I suppose that also in Canada, the number of commercial helicopter pilots is higher than the number of privat pilots. Since we do not know anything more about this list of accidents, it is pretty much useless.
Do as you wish. You might change your opinion when the insurance quotes drop in. Some insurers have been known to demand a safety pilot for quite a few hours after a PPL. 50 hours isn't uncommon, depending on the complexity of the aircraft/helicopter. The savings in insurance premium alone could pay for your CPL. And you do the hours anyway.
PPL’s are not handed out in Cracker Jacks boxes as far as I know?
Some might say, that this is a quite accurate description of some flight schools. Not that I know any. Reminds me a bit of a "Examiner on Staff" marketing pitch discussion we had many moons ago.
There you go. You have the ships you can buy, anything from the R22 to the H125 or A119. Try them out. Write the check.
See ya.

PS: The only 911 worth having ist the Dakar.

paco

15th Sep 2023, 07:12

Hours do not a pilot make - I've flown with people with 200 hours with whom I would trust anything and people with 17000 with whom I would trust nothing.

Neither does the type of licence - in the essentials, they are just the same. I don't teach someone half of dynamic rollover just because they're doing a PPL!

Certainly get an instructor who has been out in the real world and can teach you good habits right from the start. But it's a fair point that a CPL may help with insurance companies, but they don't live in the real world either. It's not a lot of extra work.

Agile

15th Sep 2023, 08:30

Hours do not a pilot make - I've flown with people with 200 hours with whom I would trust anything and people with 17000 with whom I would trust nothing.
Yes its all a matter of attitude, I cut into this thread because I am not convicinced "HoYeah" has that in mind yet

Neither does the type of licence - in the essentials, they are just the same. I don't teach someone half of dynamic rollover just because they're doing a PPL!
Yes but rotorbee has a very valid point:
As a private pilot, you will never get the same additional training a commercial pilot would get, because most instructors will be a bit more easy on you, because you have not trained to higher standards.

Examiner a lot more easy on me for my PPL
Certainly get an instructor who has been out in the real world and can teach you good habits right from the start.
You are one of those good guy paco, (with real world learnings) glad to have had my theory from you years ago, bad habit are where I spent most flight hours fixing.