Joyce ‘retires’ early 👍

[gordonfvckingramsay]

And even if customers more broadly were to accept – as Qantas is at pains to argue – that there are no guarantees around timeliness, they expect their rights as consumers will kick in when there are inevitable delays. (What constitutes an “inevitable” delay is still up for debate in Australia.)

Qantas are correct, there are no guarantees around timeliness. Delays and cancellations are and have always been a part of airline operations. I’ll call bull**** on a large number of cancelled or delayed flights in the last several years though. When your MEL laden aircraft is dragged onto the bay, or is late out of maintenance due to insufficient staff, due to outsourcing and continuously declining pay and conditions, the delay is only inevitable in that it was caused by the organisation claiming to not be at fault…..the victim of inevitable and unavoidable delays themselves if you believe the spin. And when your flight is cancelled last minute because crews have gone out of hours and don’t think carrying the can for a management team bent demoralising and denigrating the people they are now begging to extend and operate fatigued…..the delay is only inevitable because of a set of dogmatic ideals put in place by the organisation claiming to be, again, not at fault. And the push back drivers, caterers, baggage handlers, ground staff….the list goes on and on and on and on. The only inevitability to all this is that the fools who ‘run’ this airline are just that, fools. They fool one another that they are great stewards of the industry, and they have certainly fooled numerous previous governments that they should be able to continue to use our national carrier as a personal cash cow. I hope the ACCC implements such crippling limitations that the current mob fvck off and allow some real airline people in to resurrect the company.

[601]

Delays and cancellations are and have always been a part of airline operations.

We are talking about taking booking for flights that did not even exist.
Completely different kettle of fish to a cancellation because the the aircraft went US or the crew called in sick.

[Lead Balloon]

There’s a better way to cut the Gordian Knot here than a “European-style compensation system”: Any ‘up front’ payments for airfares go into a trust fund that is not accessible to or controlled by the airlines or anyone connected with the airlines.

20% of the airfare is released to the airline when the passenger boards the aircraft for the booked flight – or an alternative, only if agreed by the passenger - and the other 80% is released to the airline if and when the passenger reaches their destination with their baggage (if any). Any flight cancellation or delay longer than a specified period results in the passenger having the right to elect to take a full refund, and the trustee is obliged to pay the refund. If the passenger fails to front for a flight, the airline is entitled to 100% of the payment, unless the airline agrees to a lesser amount, in which case the balance is refunded to the customer. If the passenger cancels with less than a specified period of notice, the airline gets 50%. (Do what you will with the percentages, provided that the outcome incentivises the provision of the service for which the customer originally paid.) The airline would have security, in the sense that it would know that the money is there and will be paid on the provision of the service. The airline would have a ‘bundle of rights’, if you will... But the rights don’t include the airline getting its grubby fingers on the customers’ money unless until the service for which the customer paid is provided.

Qantas did what it was financially incentivised to do: Gather and retain as much money up front from customers as quickly and efficiently as it could, then make it far more inconvenient for the customers to get their money back than accept whatever poor service Qantas ‘managed’ to cobble together as the alternative for what was booked. That behaviour would change, in the blink of an eye, if Qantas wasn’t allowed to take customers' money in advance of the provision of the service. Doesn’t need the ACCC to do anything.

(My presumptive position is that any business which insists on money ‘up front’ for yet-to-be provided goods or services is probably dodgy anyway.)

I’m prepared to set up and administer the system for the (very modest) fee of 0.005% of each payment into the fund and of each payment out of the fund.

[Icarus2001]

(My presumptive position is that any business which insists on money ‘up front’ for yet-to-be provided goods or services is probably dodgy anyway.)

​​​​​​​You obviously are not from this planet.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

We are talking about taking booking for flights that did not even exist.
Completely different kettle of fish to a cancellation because the the aircraft went US or the crew called in sick.

Have a read of the article above. Ghost flights are an issue, but the general lack of reliability and the way passengers are ‘handled’ during a cancellation is very much a part of the issue before the ACCC.

[dragon man]

By ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN (https://archive.md/o/oxsYu/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robert-gottliebsen)
10:46AM NOVEMBER 6, 2023

During the 60-plus days since September 4, the Qantas board has showered the nation with apologies, but continued to make fundamental mistakes which now could endanger a business that is vital for the nation.
On September 4, I described Qantas as the worst failure of board governance since AMP (https://archive.md/o/oxsYu/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/bhps-donation-to-the-voice-will-anger-the-coalition/news-story/5460278af0fb131d35e5d55b7956645f) and called on the chairman Richard Goyder and then chief executive Alan Joyce to resign.
Joyce did the right thing and later that day brought forward his retirement and resigned. But the chairman, encouraged by foolish institutions, did not announce his intention to resign.
The young institutional managers had not studied history and did not realise that when a company gets into trouble, it is extremely difficult for the board that delivered the crisis to solve it. Often they make the situation worse and, sadly, that is what happened to Qantas.
The institutions now appear to realise their mistake and Goyder has responded by agreeing to step down in a few months, which is what he should have announced on September 4.
https://archive.md/oxsYu/7866dbc61567da3b7f82f8d33f16a5e605283dff.jpgQantas chair Richard Goyder and CEO Vanessa Hudson during the airline’s heated annual shareholder meeting in Melbourne. Picture: Luis Ascui/NCA NewsWire At that time, there were almost certainly a number of top people available and willing to take the chair of Qantas. Now a top person may be harder to find. BHP chairman Ken MacKenzie was tipped as a possible Qantas chair, but not too subtly last week ruled himself out by extending his planned term at BHP.
None of the above is a criticism of the Qantas staff or of the directors personally. It is a criticism of the institutions who should have known better.
These are strong statements and many readers will disagree, so let me explain why I believe a well-meaning board made the Qantas situation much worse:
• As a solvent company, Qantas is unique in Australia because it has $20bn of assets but shareholders funds of only $10m. The company is able to trade because its loyal customers as at June 30 had spent $5bn buying what they called “tickets” in advance expecting to fly in the next 12 months on specified dates.
There was a further $1.3bn in unredeemed frequent flyer revenue. With smaller items, revenue received in advance totalled $8.7bn. This is a regular situation, so it has become effectively the Qantas “capital”.
• But it is fickle capital and can be slashed if there is a major aviation downturn or a substantial fall in the market share of Qantas. That’s why the decline in the value of the Qantas brand in the months leading up to September 4 was so serious.
• In 2022-23, Qantas was a cash generating powerhouse and, in my view, the board should have used those strong profits to issue shares to lessen the risks in Qantas by backing it with genuine shareholders funds. Instead of issuing shares they began buying back shares and that buyback coincided with Alan Joyce selling his shares at $6.75 a share, yielding him $17m. The shares later fell below $5.
• On August 31, ACCC chair Gina Cass-Gottlieb launched an action in the Federal Court alleging Qantas engaged in “false, misleading or deceptive conduct” by advertising tickets for more than 8,000 flights that it had already cancelled but not removed from sale. It offered Qantas directors the opportunity to settle by paying $250m.
The board should have quickly grabbed the opportunity and might have even been able to negotiate it down a little.
https://archive.md/oxsYu/c637ca40eea05b5fd563b3302bdce1f7b51706c6.jpg Qantas is being taken to court by the nation’s competition watchdog for advertising tickets for more than 8,000 flights that it had already cancelled. Picture: David Gray/AFP • Instead, the Qantas board decided to take on Cass-Gottlieb in court using a highly legalistic defence that could be legally correct but represents an enormous risk to the Qantas customer goodwill and therefore the capital base of the company. And the board continued to buy back shares.
• The Qantas customers who outlaid $5bn at June 30 believed they were buying a ticket for a particular flight to a particular destination at a particular time. The Qantas base defence is that what their customers were actually buying was a “service” which was really a bundle of contractual rights that obliged the airline to do its best to get customers where they want to be on time.
The Federal Court will decide whether Qantas is right or wrong in its definition of what their customers were buying.
But in the daily public court hearings Qantas customers will be horrified at this definition and the lawyers for the ACCC will mercilessly rub the Qantas nose deep into the public dirt as they claim that the Qantas definition of what they were selling represented “false, misleading or deceptive conduct”.
• Meanwhile, the delighted Virgin camp has seen the Morgan polling that shows their brand now has a higher standing than Qantas. They will be marketing to angry Qantas customers, pointing out if they shift to Virgin they can get a genuine “ticket” on a non-cancelled flight. Later, depending on government approval, that marketing may be extended to more flights on Qatar Airways.
Before the 2002 collapse of Ansett, Qantas had around 50 per cent of the domestic market, but it now has an established a market share of around 61 per cent. (Joyce was aiming at 70 per cent)
If Qantas slumped to 50 per cent market share, it would have too many aircraft and excess staff. Losses would be incurred and shares would need to be issued at lower prices to give the company real shareholders funds.
That’s not a prediction, but it is a danger to be blamed in the institutions for allowing the Qantas chairman and board not be reconstituted after September 4.
The grim photos of new CEO Vanessa Hudson at last week’s annual meeting indicate that she understands what could be ahead. Yet had the board reconstruction process been started on September 4, an incoming chairman would have forced a different stance in the ACCC case and could have boosted Hudson at the annual meeting.
https://archive.md/oxsYu/377709ca2db53a850e4e8931fd26e9496ece32d9.jpg Qantas CEO Vanessa Hudson at the airline’s annual shareholder meeting in Melbourne. Picture: Luis Ascui/NCA NewsWire That’s what happened at the CBA when Catherine Livingstone became chairman and supported then new CEO Matt Comyn even though he had been an executive when CBA mistakes were made. Comyn and Livingstone were a great team. Unfairly, Hudson may not get the opportunity to be a Comyn.

[Australopithecus]

What 20 billion in assets? What exactly does Qantas still own?

[Lead Balloon]

Goodwill.

[Pinky the pilot]

Goodwill.

I would submit, and b*&&$r all of that anyway, Leady.:ugh:

[Lead Balloon]

I would submit, and b*&&$r all of that anyway, Leady.:ugh:
I'm not arguing with you, Pinky. I was just speculating about what value of what Qantas assets were being plucked out of whose arse to produce $20billion. "Goodwill" is one of those wonderful accounting tools that are meaningless until the business is sold.

[MickG0105]

I find it somewhere between amusing and perplexing that likes of Gottliebsen doesn't seem to grasp the very basic concept of "Revenue received in advance".

All airlines typically receive payments for flights in advance of when they actually operate the flight. Very often, the receipt is well in advance of the actual flight.

The money received goes into revenue. The equivalent value is then held on the balance sheet as a Liability. It is not held as an asset and it is therefore not "capital". The whole thing is a simple and basic business practice with well established accounting rules.

What is often instructive is the ratio between total passenger revenue received by an airline and "Revenue received in advance". For Qantas the ratio is about 29 percent. This is not, by any means, unusual.

For comparison, Southwest sees an "air traffic liability" (one of the US terms for "Revenue received in advance") to total passenger revenue ratio of around 26 percent. Singapore Airlines runs a similar "Sales in advance of carriage" ratio of 26 percent. Delta, United and American Airlines typically see lower ratios; often somewhere in the teens.

Virgin Australia currently has a ratio approaching 40 percent. I'm yet to see much hand wringing about that.

Virgin also holds $290 million of unredeemed Future Flight credits that are currently due to expire by 31 December 2023. When that liability is written down to zero that will be the equivalent of Virgin converting passenger revenue paid in advance into capital. And I'm yet to see much hand wringing about that either.

And Virgin has assets of just over $3.7 billion and liabilities of a shade over $5 billion for a balance sheet that is underwater to the tune of $1.3 billion (a shade over $1 billion come the New Year thanks to those written down flight credits, or "theft" as it is known in some circles).

[Lead Balloon]

All airlines typically receive payments for flights in advance of when they actually operate the flight. Very often, the receipt is well in advance of the actual flight.

The money received goes into revenue. The equivalent value is then held on the balance sheet as a Liability. It is not held as an asset and it is therefore not "capital". The whole thing is a simple and basic business practice with well established accounting rules.Great!

So nothing would change if those payments in advance were received and held by someone else until the service is provided? That would relieve airlines of the terrible burden of having to hold the amounts as a liability on their balance sheet.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

The money received goes into revenue. The equivalent value is then held on the balance sheet as a Liability. It is not held as an asset and it is therefore not "capital". The whole thing is a simple and basic business practice with well established accounting rules.


The cash is held as an asset - no business would sustain a liability of '000s of millions of $ without an offsetting asset on their balance sheet. Revenue in Advance is therefore not revenue, but a balance sheet boost. But the value of the asset exceeds the value of the liability by the expected profit margin - cash in is measurable. Cost of providing the service can be smoke and mirrors allowing Qantas (and others) to pump up the balance sheet (or vice versa) by minimising the associated liability. That cash earns interest - and that's a 'free' revenue stream.


What is often instructive is the ratio between total passenger revenue received by an airline and "Revenue received in advance". For Qantas the ratio is about 29 percent. This is not, by any means, unusual.

For comparison, Southwest sees an "air traffic liability" (one of the US terms for "Revenue received in advance") to total passenger revenue ratio of around 26 percent. Singapore Airlines runs a similar "Sales in advance of carriage" ratio of 26 percent. Delta, United and American Airlines typically see lower ratios; often somewhere in the teens.

Virgin Australia currently has a ratio approaching 40 percent. I'm yet to see much hand wringing about that.

Virgin also holds $290 million of unredeemed Future Flight credits that are currently due to expire by 31 December 2023. When that liability is written down to zero that will be the equivalent of Virgin converting passenger revenue paid in advance into capital. And I'm yet to see much hand wringing about that either.

And Virgin has assets of just over $3.7 billion and liabilities of a shade over $5 billion for a balance sheet that is underwater to the tune of $1.3 billion (a shade over $1 billion come the New Year thanks to those written down flight credits, or "theft" as it is known in some circles).

What's instructive is how difficult it is for Joe Public to get their money back or even the grounds on which its being held. Qantas specifically took money for a flight they knew they weren't going to operate and didn't tell the customer and when they finally got around to it, made it very difficult for the customer to get their money back thus allowing the balance sheet to remain inflated and the cash to earn interest. Then, when said customer wanted an alternative option via credit etc - the "service" was no longer available at that price - the liability to provide the service was unchanged but hey, look, we now get more money by charging more for the same flight on a different day.

I think the whole "we only guarantee to get you somewhere when WE feel like it" defence is laughably flimsy. If that were true, why aren't all seats on all flights on a given day the same price? Why would I pay additional $$$ for a morning flight when according to Qantas I hadn't bought anything other than an assurance that I'd get there sometime? Sure, my additional $$$ might increase my chances of getting a flight closer to the one I booked (or even the one I booked) but I think that where they've charged premium prices on a ghost flight then their argument starts to fall apart. I also wouldn't be surprised if the ACCC takes their defence and adds abuse of market power and deceptive & misleading conduct to the charges.

Australia needs legislation like the EU and Canadian compensation models. I think if you surveyed and said - hey, you ticket price will go up, but would you like these protections in their place? - you'd get an overwhelming yes. Heck, even let passengers opt-in or opt-out if they are that price sensitive. Then airlines who can't organise a proverbial in a proverbial will suffer either through loss of business (if they pass their costs on fully) or loss of profit (if they don't) compared to the ones that can get their stuff together.

And on Virgin - I think that 'steal' should also come to bite them. I reckon a large part of the Bain business model is tied to keeping that cash. They'll be far less likely to succumb to external pressure and unfortunately I don't see the current transport minister with anything approaching the credibility or political capital to take them on. Of course it helps that they're not currently up in front of the ACCC nor warring with every worker in sight.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

My presumptive position is that any business which insists on money ‘up front’ for yet-to-be provided goods or services is probably dodgy anyway.
That's about how 90% of commerce works these days. You bought a Macca's or a car lately? The only difference between that and an airline ticket is the time lapse between payment and delivery, and the rubberiness of what they will provide for that money.
TBH, I can't really believe that most people are so naive that they don't realise what they are getting into when they pay for their ticket. Surely every traveller has in the back of their mind "Gee I hope my flight isn't delayed or cancelled, that will really mess up my plans" as they're heading to the airport. It's not like this is anything new.

[Chronic Snoozer]

That's about how 90% of commerce works these days. You bought a Macca's or a car lately? The only difference between that and an airline ticket is the time lapse between payment and delivery, and the rubberiness of what they will provide for that money.
TBH, I can't really believe that most people are so naive that they don't realise what they are getting into when they pay for their ticket. Surely every traveller has in the back of their mind "Gee I hope my flight isn't delayed or cancelled, that will really mess up my plans" as they're heading to the airport. It's not like this is anything new.

What is new is contemplating two weeks out from a trip whether the flight you booked a week ago actually exists. The inevitable "Sorry for the inconvenience" boilerplate apology will do much to assuage the "inconvenienced" customer as they attempt to rebook the flight for the same price and figure out how to replicate their previous itinerary. If I wanted a lottery ticket I'd have gone to a newsagent.

[V-Jet]

That's about how 90% of commerce works these days. You bought a Macca's or a car lately? The only difference between that and an airline ticket is the time lapse between payment and delivery, and the rubberiness of what they will provide for that money.
TBH, I can't really believe that most people are so naive that they don't realise what they are getting into when they pay for their ticket. Surely every traveller has in the back of their mind "Gee I hope my flight isn't delayed or cancelled, that will really mess up my plans" as they're heading to the airport. It's not like this is anything new.

It will be an interesting court case. I liked Gottliebsen's summary in the Oz, that a great way of defining past from present would have been negotiate with the ACCC - we've been naughty, it was the other guy, not me - I'm here to help, can we get a discount on the fine please as gesture of good will and here are our issues we have, can you help? - that type of thing.

Versus - How dare you accuse us of anything, you're not worthy, we're Qantas and we aren't going to change because you're wrong! Yes they might win a battle in Court, but the political optics are not good. If they don't win in Court, they will have the book thrown at them, they will look appalling (again) and create more problems. Of course, a loss could put a great deal of legal problems into their laps selling tickets (let alone FF points) into the future, but sitting and negotiating those points in good faith (assuming Qantas is capable of understanding the meaning) is going to achieve FAR better results than throwing spears at each other across a table.

Fighting IMHO is negatives all around for QF. Mea Culpa would have been a great positive for Qantas and especially Elaine's Wig from a marketing and political perspective.

[Lead Balloon]

[Payment up front] is about how 90% of commerce works these days. You bought a Macca's or a car lately? The only difference between that and an airline ticket is the time lapse between payment and delivery, and the rubberiness of what they will provide for that money.
...No maccas and when I purchased my current car I paid for it when I picked it up.

90% of the commerce in which I choose to participate involves me paying after the goods or services have been delivered. Other people can make other choices. That's the joy of the free market.

My main point was that there is no law of physics or commerce that prohibits the payment model I proposed. But I suppose - as others have correctly observed - if sheeple continue to line up to pay in advance then I'm sure airlines will be happy to take their money in advance and treat them like sheeple.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

if sheeple continue to line up to pay in advance then I'm sure airlines will be happy to take their money in advance and treat them like sheeple.
Has there ever been a payment model in any segment of aviation where you pay after you get out of the aircraft at your destination?

[Mr Mossberg]

Has there ever been a payment model in any segment of aviation where you pay after you get out of the aircraft at your destination?

It may not be the segment of aviation that you allude to, but when I learnt to fly I didn't pay for any flight upfront and I didn't have to run an account with a credit balance.

[Lead Balloon]

Has there ever been a payment model in any segment of aviation where you pay after you get out of the aircraft at your destination?Well, even if there hasn’t, it doesn’t mean in cannot happen. And I reckon you’d agree with me: The outcome would be vastly different behaviour on the part of the airlines.

And, just to be clear: My proposed model requires passengers to pay in advance. The key difference is that the airlines don’t get their grubby fingers on the money unless and until the service is provided in accordance with the booking and the passengers have proper security of their money and refund if the service isn’t provided in accordance with the booking.

[megan]

Has there ever been a payment model in any segment of aviation where you pay after you get out of the aircraft at your destination?Once airborne the CC could go around and swipe your card for payment of the flight, rather like the tram, train and bus conductors of old.

[Chris2303]

Well, even if there hasn’t, it doesn’t mean in cannot happen. And I reckon you’d agree with me: The outcome would be vastly different behaviour on the part of the airlines.

And, just to be clear: My proposed model requires passengers to pay in advance. The key difference is that the airlines don’t get their grubby fingers on the money unless and until the service is provided in accordance with the booking and the passengers have proper security of their money and refund if the service isn’t provided in accordance with the booking.

So what are you going to do if your 0715 SYD-MEL is cancelled due to COBT?

[Lead Balloon]

Not the consumers’ problem. The consumer can elect for a full refund from the trust or accept an alternative offered by the carrier. The least best placed person to understand and manage the risks of the vagaries of the air traffic system and other myriad complexities of aviation is the passenger.

[dragon man]

Opinion https://archive.md/PnRqd/c1ed725f13ce5966324c4ddff46d9d4d772d93ea.pngQantas turned off my microphone at the AGM. Here’s what I thinkMy sin was to challenge the morality of board decisions. But it is the company that needs to relearn what the spirit of Australia means.
Chris Maxworthy (https://archive.md/o/PnRqd/https://www.afr.com/by/chris-maxworthy-p5375i)Qantas shareholderNov 8, 2023 – 12.41pm
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At last week’s annual meeting of Qantas, board chairman Richard Goyder directed that my microphone be cut off (https://archive.md/o/PnRqd/https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p5ehcb) during questions from the floor.
My sin was that I questioned the morality of board decisions: the illegality of Qantas shedding 1700 ground handling staff; the ACCC’s prosecution of Qantas for allegedly selling 8000 ghost flights; and Goyder’s approval for Alan Joyce’s $17million share sale. What a trifecta. https://archive.md/PnRqd/11ebba91ff96d9b95da33515c622e6f0dd5d266f.webp Shareholders were welcome at the Qantas AGM. Questions not so much. Jow Armao Goyder’s initial reply was: “I have absolutely zero concern about the ethics of the [board members] here.” My reply was that having had the High Court back the Federal Court decision on the TWU members, “you might have justified it at the time on a commercial basis, but we are paying for your lack of ethics now”.
I moved on to Goyder’s approval of Joyce’s sale of his $17 million of Qantas stock. Joyce received his parcel away before the ACCC announcement that it was pursuing Qantas over the ghost flights. This was too much for Goyder, and he demanded that my microphone be switched off. Jeers and calls of “shame on you” spread throughout the venue. I pointed to the board and added “shame on all of you”.
After 40 years as an investor, that Qantas meeting was the worst I have attended. It was carefully scripted, with an excess of security staff and board members who looked ill at ease with their owners. What the board knew, but the audience was yet to learn, was that the remuneration report had been voted down by a stunning 83 per cent. (https://archive.md/o/PnRqd/https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p5ehcb)
That result means that almost all shareholders, including the institutional holders of Qantas stock, have had enough of brand damage. Of the 178,000 owners in Qantas, just 160 shareholders control 80 per cent of the company; that is, holdings greater than $5 million. I am just one of the other 107,000 shareholders with fewer than 1000 shares.
Goyder’s petulant silencing of me has tainted his reputation. The meeting was a miserable experience for the board such that none – repeat none – of the members attended tea and sandwiches with their owners after the formalities. Goyder had stated that the board could spare “five to 10 minutes to speak personally with shareholders”. It never happened – the first time in my experience.Weak argumentGoyder’s plan to remain in place until November next year is now in tatters. CEO Vanessa Hudson and board member Todd Sampson (https://archive.md/o/PnRqd/https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p5ehhv) should also consider falling on their swords.
I am profoundly saddened at how the board and the executive management of Qantas have conducted themselves.
Witness the complicated and weak argument explained at the annual meeting as its defence with the ACCC. (https://archive.md/o/PnRqd/https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p5egy6) Facing heavy fines and a competition watchdog prepared to pursue Qantas under the Trade Practices Act, the fresh argument is that booking a Qantas flight is not really a good but an array of rights. I have never seen that explained in a Qantas advertisement!
Qantas has been adept at channelling national sentiment to build up a profitable customer base. But Australians are not mugs. We have a healthy scepticism of national leaders and businesses that do not match up to our collective sense of what is fair and ethical.
Qantas was a national institution, and the distinctive branding of the Flying Kangaroo previously generated pride among Australians. But that sentiment has long gone. Price gouging, political special pleading to exclude competition, delays in refreshing the fleet, hard practices with Qantas frequent flyer points, and acting as a monopolist – that is not the spirit of Australia.
From here on, the senior management must work at rebuilding Qantas’ social licence. It needs to be real and tangible, with marketing pushed to the rear. Real answers, genuine care and not taking patronage for granted, not just cozying up to the influential and powerful through access to the Chairman’s Lounge. (https://archive.md/o/PnRqd/https://www.afr.com/link/follow-20180101-p5ea9f)No more playing fast and loose with definitions of what a flight is, or the nature of the customer relationship.
Up to $16 million of Joyce’s recent performance incentives are within the board’s control to claw back now. If the board wants to restore the airline’s reputation, then a starting point would be to repudiate a large portion of these bonus incentives. In the court of public opinion, that would receive strong backing, and show that the board is now more in tune with the real spirit of Australia

[V-Jet]

Qantas accused of omitting information from defence of ACCC allegations over ghost flights

By robyn ironside (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)

Qantas has been accused by the consumer watchdog of failing to explain why it left flights on sale after they had been cancelled, in its response to allegations of false or misleading conduct.

In a case management hearing before Justice Helen Rofe on Wednesday, barrister for the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission, Chris Caleo, KC, said it may be necessary to seek orders to force Qantas to handover more details.

The ACCC has alleged Qantas continued to sell tickets on more than 8000 flights for an average of 16 days after they had been cancelled, over several months in 2022.

In its defence, Qantas claimed no customer was left out of pocket and it was in fact selling “a bundle of particular rights” rather than “a particular flight”.

The embattled airline also stated that customers were not immediately informed of flight cancellations because they wanted time to arrange alternative travel options, or wanted to avoid further blowouts in call centre wait times.

In some instances “human error” was to blame, Qantas said.
Mr Caleo told the court they were hopeful of reaching agreement on key aspects of the facts, and would pursue “alternative interlocutory steps” if unsuccessful.“If the initial remedy of seeking particulars proves to be ineffective, it may be necessary to raise with your honour on the next occasion aspects of the (defence) and in particular what the commission sees as a failure on the part of Qantas to respond directly to the key allegations of conduct,” Mr Caleo said.

“It may well be that a request for particulars can address those matters, and we hope it can, but if that proves not to be the case then we may need to raise those matters with your honour on the next occasion.”

Robert Yezerski SC for Qantas said his client rejected the idea there was “any deficiency” in the defence.

“We think the matters that have been raised in the concise response are relatively clear,” Mr Yezerski said.

Justice Rofe gave Qantas until December 1 to respond to any request from the ACCC for more details.

Additional information was provided to the court by the ACCC including a 400-page spreadsheet detailing every flight cancelled in the period in question, and the date when customers were notified.

The consumer watchdog said some of Qantas’s requests for more information about its allegations went “beyond” their legal requirements, court documents showed.

Legal letters exchanged by the ACCC and Qantas were made public after the Federal Court hearing.

According to the letters, Qantas sought “particulars” about the ACCC’s case, but lawyers representing the watchdog said they had largely given them enough evidence.

Justice Rofe told the parties it was her preference to send such matters to mediation and also asked if there were any suitable dates in 2024 for a trial.

Both Qantas and the ACCC were in agreement that it was premature to be planning a trial.

The case was set to return to court on February 28 for a hearing.

ACCC chair Gina Cass-Gottlieb (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/accc-set-to-battle-qantas-in-court-regulator-boss-gina-cassgottlieb-says/news-story/69a73d8cf7f2cbad43b664285415c8af) has said she wanted a fine in the vicinity of $250m against Qantas to send a message to other companies about such behaviour.

At stake for Qantas is more than its battered reputation, with almost $6m in short term executive bonuses being held in limbo until the outcome is known.

In response to the ACCC lawsuit and the High Court’s finding Qantas acted unlawfully when it outsourced the jobs of almost 1700 employees, the board took the decision to reduce short term incentive payments (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-board-urged-to-act-on-executive-bonuses-left-in-limbo-ahead-of-the-agm/news-story/a2db1e5b75548ca08f359edc694e5274)by 20 per cent and withhold the balance of $5.9m.

Last Friday’s AGM heard the board would revisit short term bonuses once the cost of the ACCC lawsuit, and compensation for outsourced workers was known.

Qantas shares closed up 7c on Wednesday at $5.32.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Once airborne the CC could go around and swipe your card for payment of the flight, rather like the tram, train and bus conductors of old.
But now you pay up front for the privilege of tram, train, or bus by needing to have bought a ticket before you can travel. Or you have prepaid a balance to an account in their books which they have they use of while you draw it down gradually.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

It may not be the segment of aviation that you allude to,
Yes, I meant the segments involving the carrying of passengers. Sorry I left that unclear.

[maui]

[QUOTE]Has there ever been a payment model in any segment of aviation where you pay after you get out of the aircraft at your destination?]​​​​​​​[/QUOTE

Maybe things have changed over the last 50 years, but when I worked GA a long time ago, all our charter was done that way.
Scheduled service, different story.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Qantas has been adept at channelling national sentiment to build up a profitable customer base. But Australians are not mugs. We have a healthy scepticism of national leaders and businesses that do not match up to our collective sense of what is fair and ethical.
Yea, but maybe collectively you don't look too hard at just how ethical and fair those leaders and businesses are being as long as the share price keeps going up. Hero to zero when the trend line tips over.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

From the last AFR article



Up to $16 million of Joyce’s recent performance incentives are within the board’s control to claw back now. If the board wants to restore the airline’s reputation, then a starting point would be to repudiate a large portion of these bonus incentives. In the court of public opinion, that would receive strong backing, and show that the board is now more in tune with the real spirit of Australia

This isn’t going to happen. Why? Because Elaine will have a documented paper trail to the board telling them exactly what he was up to including the risks - and they will have signed off on it. If they try and claw back, he’ll be straight off to court and pleading that he’s being unfairly penalised for something the board told him to do. Why do you think the reluctance to throw him under the bus?

It’s possible that there may have been a deal done around the share sales - agreeing to let him sell at the top of the market even though they knew the ACCC were coming - and in return withhold a marginal portion of his bonus package for PR purposes.

I’d also bet he’s extracted something extra in return for ‘falling on his sword’ early

[gordonfvckingramsay]

This isn’t going to happen. Why? Because Elaine will have a documented paper trail to the board telling them exactly what he was up to including the risks - and they will have signed off on it. If they try and claw back, he’ll be straight off to court and pleading that he’s being unfairly penalised for something the board told him to do. Why do you think the reluctance to throw him under the bus?

Everyone wants to be the captain until it’s time to do captain ****. He wanted and occupied the top job, he can’t hide behind the board. It would be like a captain blaming cabin crew for making him/her, bust minima.

[C441]

To paraphrase Midnight Oil - "When the General talks, you'd better listen to him." and "disagree, you get annihilated."

Why else, for example, would Todd Sampson sit there and do little more than observe when the brand, his supposed area of expertise, was/is getting trashed?

Simple. Why risk an easy $270,000 on top of your other salaries, by prodding the bully. A highly regarded Networks expert twice presented hard evidence to the board that Qantas could do very well with a presence on the east coast-HKG-LHR route despite Alan's insistence that PER-LHR was to be lauded as a 'game-changer' and nothing could distract from that. He was out the door within an hour after his second attempt.

[hotnhigh]

Once you get your head around the fact that the joint is run like the best little Whore House in Texas or the worst local branch of the labor party, you’ll get the drift of the place.
It has a senior management culture of bullying your friends and enemies nearby, (think Strambi, Webster, hickey, Tino (insert any others who thought they may have made it to the top) before Alan drove the knife in. That’s corporate 101.

The major shareholders don’t give a flying about mum and dad investors, nor pilots and their careers or aspirations.

In a nutshell, Qf will remain, even if it was insolvent. (It will/would renationalise)
Fly the jet, park it, and walk away.
Any other considerations are a waste of time.

[73to91]

But now you pay up front for the privilege of tram, train, or bus by needing to have bought a ticket before you can travel. Or you have prepaid a balance to an account in their books which they have they use of while you draw it down gradually.
Don't forget the privilege of being a telco customer, Optus as an example, many pre-paid customers there. Your toll roads with etags, health funds, the list goes on and these operators get to ‘invest’ your hard earned and hope you do not use them (etags & health funds) for many months.

[CaptainInsaneO]

So has anyone used this in their PA yet?

"Hello everyone, I'd like to welcome you aboard this bundle of particular rights, ..."

[Australopithecus]

Hah. We were laughing about the same idea at breakfast this morning. I haven’t yet, but I only ever thank the punters solely on behalf of the crew and other employees of the airline. Bundle of rights my *ss

[airdualbleedfault]

To paraphrase Midnight Oil - "When the General talks, you'd better listen to him." and "disagree, you get annihilated."

Why else, for example, would Todd Sampson sit there and do little more than observe when the brand, his supposed area of expertise, was/is getting trashed?

Simple. Why risk an easy $270,000 on top of your other salaries, by prodding the bully. A highly regarded Networks expert twice presented hard evidence to the board that Qantas could do very well with a presence on the east coast-HKG-LHR route despite Alan's insistence that PER-LHR was to be lauded as a 'game-changer' and nothing could distract from that. He was out the door within an hour after his second attempt.
Todd Sampson, living proof that any idiot can be on a board and that boards are widely insignificant, mostly consisting of "fillers" to satisfy some bull5hit quotas

[V-Jet]

Qantas found guilty over stood-down safety repBy Angelica Snowden
Qantas is guilty of a criminal charge after standing down a health and safety representative in the early stages of the global pandemic, a NSW district court judge has found.

The case relates to a Safework NSW matter in which it accused Qantas of breaching part 6 of the Work Health and Safety Act and discriminating against Theo Seremetidis after he was stood down for performing duties as a health and safety representative.

He was stood down by Qantas after he advised colleagues to stop unsafe work on planes arriving from China in early 2020 due to Covid-19 exposure risks.

On Thursday, the court heard elements of the offence brought by SafeWork NSW were established beyond reasonable doubt and Qantas Ground Services is “guilty of the offence charged”.

They specifically related to standing down Mr Seremetidis “to his detriment” and the dominant reason for standing him down was a prohibited reason because he had exercised a power as a health and safety representative by directing workers to cease unsafe work.

Other charges relating to additional matters were dismissed.

[dragon man]

The full article, will Elaine’s sister apologise, will Elaine’s bonus be docked or will they just do what they normally do?

By ANGELICA SNOWDEN (https://archive.md/o/nu4LL/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/angelica-snowden)
10:24AM NOVEMBER 16, 2023






Qantas is guilty of a criminal charge after standing down a health and safety representative in the early stages of the global pandemic, a NSW district court judge has found.
The case relates to a Safework NSW matter in which it accused Qantas of breaching part 6 of the Work Health and Safety Act and discriminating against Theo Seremetidis after he was stood down for performing duties as a health and safety representative.
He was stood down by Qantas (https://archive.md/o/nu4LL/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/downcast-hudson-needs-to-do-more-than-listen-in-order-to-get-customer-service-back-on-track/news-story/2bd62213f9246aa35d3b709a615bad65) after he advised colleagues to stop unsafe work on planes arriving from China in early 2020 due to Covid-19 exposure risks.
On Thursday, the court heard elements of the matter brought by SafeWork NSW were established beyond reasonable doubt and Qantas Ground Services is “guilty of the offence charged”.
They specifically related to standing down Mr Seremetidis “to his detriment” and the dominant reason for standing him down was a prohibited reason because he had exercised a power as a health and safety representative by directing workers to cease unsafe work.
Other charges relating to additional matters were dismissed.
It is the first legal test of uniform work health and safety laws. The prosecution was brought after a complaint from the Transport Workers Union to SafeWork NSW on behalf of Mr Seremetidis.
ACCC chief doubles down on Qantas ghost flight case debacle
Judge David Russell said he accepted SafeWork NSW’s submissions that Qantas Ground Services “actively sidelined” Mr Seremetidis.
“Firstly … by cutting him off from other staff who were seeking his help,” he said.
“And secondly, by standing him down and requiring him to leave the airport forthwith.
“I find that (Qantas Ground Services) saw the giving of the directions by Mr Seremetidis to cease work as a threat to the conduct of business and in particular, a threat to the ability of (Qantas Ground Services) to clean and service aircraft and get them back in the air.”
Judge Russell also said he formed a “favourable impression” of Mr Seremetidis, whose evidence extended over a number of days.
“I formed the view that he attempted to carry out his duties as a health and safety representative conscientiously and carefully,” he said.
TWU President and NSW/Qld Secretary Richard Olsen welcomed the verdict on SafeWork NSW’s primary charge.
“This is a fantastic result. Theo is a workplace hero and today he has been vindicated. When the TWU urged SafeWork NSW to prosecute this case, Theo courageously took on one of Australia’s biggest corporate bullies and won,” he said.
“Qantas not only ignored the concerns of Theo and his colleagues, but set out to punish and silence him for acting in his role as a highly trained HSR.”
TWU National Secretary Michael Kaine said the “landmark” decision will make workplaces safer.
“How Qantas responds to this verdict will be one of the first tests of the promise made by the airline that it has turned over a new leaf. Historically, Qantas has dragged out every possible legal challenge, with Goyder still refusing to accept that illegally outsourcing 1700 ground and fleet presentation workers was wrong,” he said

[SIUYA]

dragon man...

Richard Olsen from the TWU also said that the court's ruling puts a "question mark" over the legacy of former chief executive Alan Joyce, and that "We need to reset this company".

I'd say that most QF staff, customers, FF Members, investors and most other associated unions couldn't agree more, but good luck trying to 'reset' QF while the present bunch of lunatics, including (mis)management and the Board, are running the asylum.

So far Hudson and the ineffectual QF Board are showing absolutely no sign or intention of fixing anything, and it looks like they haven't got a clue how to anyway.

[dragon man]

I couldn’t agree more with you however until the board under a new chairperson realise that they all have collectively been main lining the koolaid for to long and bring in an outsider with considerable operation airline experience nothing will change.

[Slippery_Pete]

I don’t think Hudson is going to last more than 18 months. She seems like a deer in the headlights with zero clue what to do.

She should have immediately distanced herself from Voldemort’s 15 year reign of terror. Instead, she thanked him 🤦‍♂️

She should stop saying sorry to customers and instead start acting sorry.

She should have disengaged completely from the thinking that an airline can set social and political policy - and just focused on getting people from A to B safely, efficiently and on-time.

Her number one priority must be stopping the current trajectory of Qantas essentially becoming a pimp between once loyal Aussie customers and cheap contractors.

I honestly don’t think she has any clue where to even start.

The former CEO’s strategy was to tie his own extravagant remuneration to easily achieved targets, remove anyone who disagreed, slash long term investment for short term personal gain, and sail into the sunset with his own pockets full.

Suddenly the world has realised all that remains is the gutted shell of a once great airline, and all the kool-aid drinkers at head office are scratching their heads wondering how to run an airline with inefficient 25 year old airframes and pissed off staff.

[V-Jet]

good luck trying to 'reset' QF while the present bunch of lunatics, including (mis)management and the Board, are running the asylum.

Two great posts above but a special mention goes to ​​​​​​​Miss Management - great pun:):)

[Ollie Onion]

‘How to run an airline with inefficient 25 year old airframes and pissed off staff.’

Sums it all up nicely, I have never seen such a disengaged workgroup. The mere mention of Qantas Group wage policy etc just brings a one finger salute from once loyal staff. There is only so many times you can hear ‘if we give you that we may have to shut down the airline’ before you respond by saying ‘go for it’!

[ozbiggles]

I don’t think Hudson is going to last more than 18 months. She seems like a deer in the headlights with zero clue what to do.

She should have immediately distanced herself from Voldemort’s 15 year reign of terror. Instead, she thanked him 🤦‍♂️

She should stop saying sorry to customers and instead start acting sorry.

She should have disengaged completely from the thinking that an airline can set social and political policy - and just focused on getting people from A to B safely, efficiently and on-time.

Her number one priority must be stopping the current trajectory of Qantas essentially becoming a pimp between once loyal Aussie customers and cheap contractors.

I honestly don’t think she has any clue where to even start.

The former CEO’s strategy was to tie his own extravagant remuneration to easily achieved targets, remove anyone who disagreed, slash long term investment for short term personal gain, and sail into the sunset with his own pockets full.

Suddenly the world has realised all that remains is the gutted shell of a once great airline, and all the kool-aid drinkers at head office are scratching their heads wondering how to run an airline with inefficient 25 year old airframes and pissed off staff.

Not going to happen, she was the XO of the boat under Voldemorts reign, she literally signed the cheques. The board
picked her because she has known what the board wants the whole time.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Not going to happen, she was the XO of the boat under Voldemorts reign, she literally signed the cheques. The board
picked her because she has known what the board wants the whole time.

I wouldn’t give her too much credit, she was an XO under a Captain who would have had her locked in the brig for suggesting he ran the place properly. She probably just kept saying “aye aye captain” and banked the paycheque, just like the board have been doing. The problem for her is that the board will follow the gravy train, and there ain’t one. Alan picked the carcass so dry, marrow and all, and it will take someone with godlike business acumen and leadership to save us, I haven’t seen anyone like that stalking the street.

[dragon man]

Optus has had a horrific two weeks, but it still can’t hold a candle to QantasOptus and Qantas might both be poor at communication when they stuff up, but the airline's illegal behaviour is far worse than that of the telecommunications provider.

BERNARD KEANE (https://www.crikey.com.au/author/bernard-keane/)

NOV

It’s not often that yet another Qantas scandal around its illegal behaviour gets trumped by a display of hubris and poor service by some other major company. Having walked around with targets on their backs for much of the year, Qantas’ executives and its three-wise-monkeys board of directors must be delighted that Optus has absorbed media attention for last week’s outage and its ensuing communications failure — complete with comparisons in the Financial Review of CEO Kelly Bayer Rosmarin’s response with those of the airline to its many scandals.

Bayer Rosmarin is now reportedly (https://www.afr.com/companies/telecommunications/optus-ceo-kelly-bayer-rosmarin-considers-stepping-down-20231116-p5ekmn) considering stepping down — which would instantly elevate her above the parade of clowns at Qantas, who have grimly clung onto their chairman’s lounge access, right up to Alan Joyce, the unflushable turd of Australian business, who was only pushed out, mere weeks from his retirement date, when the ACCC came brandishing multi-hundred-million dollar fines earlier this year.

Optus’ outage appears less related to Qantas-style behaviour — a blatant contempt for customers, a commitment to reducing levels of service, underinvestment as a key corporate strategy, and unlawful treatment of its employees — than human error and the grim fact that infrastructure, no matter how gold-plated, occasionally breaks down. Telecommunications, along with aviation, is naturally a core area in the relentlessly expanding area of “critical infrastructure” regulation by government — that once covered four sectors, but now extends to a mighty 11 — the primary effect of which has been to simply raise regulatory barriers to entry in sectors already prone to monopolies and oligopolies. Certainly, more than two decades of critical infrastructure meetings between industry and bureaucrats (I endured some in my former life), and steadily creeping regulation didn’t do much to protect Optus customers last week.

Bayer Rosmarin’s sins — sure to be forensically examined at the inevitable Senate inquiry today — are instead around communication, at which Optus undoubtedly failed, but for which another problem seemed to be that the company wouldn’t tell people what they wanted to hear, i.e. that their services were about to be restored, mainly because it had little idea itself. What they did reflect is a persistent theme about how out-of-touch senior Australian business figures can be from what their customers expect. That Bayer Rosmarin and her executives failed to learn from the savage criticism of Optus’ communication (https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/hacking/optus-slammed-for-lack-of-communication-with-customers-government/news-story/a8a2d8ce1c40b3c5b847ea67a2e153be) about its hacking a year ago says much about their poor grasp of consumer sentiment. So much for the neoliberal idea that markets are the ultimate democracy and somehow channel the needs and wants of the public better than a ballot box can.

But Qantas’ conduct was — once again — far worse. It stood down employee Theo Seremetidis (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-16/qantas-found-guilty-after-standing-down-employee-covid-pandemic/103112782)who raised safety concerns — “namely the risk of workers contracting COVID-19 while cleaning and servicing planes arriving from China”, in early 2020, in the words of the presiding judge. Qantas graciously “acknowledged the findings of the NSW District Court” in response — rather than, presumably, announcing it was seceding from NSW and the nation-state of Mascot would henceforth be its home.

Qantas’ treatment of Seremetidis looks a lot like punishment of a whistleblower, as well as an attempt to ignore justified safety concerns. Its conduct is of a piece with its illegal sacking of 1,700 staff during the pandemic, and its alleged industrial-scale breaches of consumer law in relation to ghost flights.

If the ACCC is successful in its prosecution over the ghost flights — overcoming the airline’s asinine “we don’t sell tickets” defence — then the verdict will be in on the Alan Joyce-era Qantas: it was a relentless lawbreaker that engaged in unlawful conduct in relation to its employees, its customers and safety.

What will Qantas’ response to the Seremetidis decision be? Its usual strategy of relentless litigation, if necessary all the way to the High Court? If so, the claim of CEO Vanessa Hudson that somehow Qantas has entered a new and better era will be proven hollow indeed

[SIUYA]

If Hudson is claiming that somehow Qantas has entered a new and better era, then she’s clearly delusional.

So far she seems to have done absolutely nothing to benefit customers or staff, and we certainly aren’t seeing anyone at Qantas displaying any business acumen or leadership as gordonfvckingramsay has correctly pointed out at #796, that’s for sure!

Both the Qantas Board and (mis)management seem to have zero awareness about just how much reputational and brand damage has been done (and continues to be done), or that they have responsibility for that damage, and the Seremetidis event is just latest episode of the incompetence of Qantas (mis)management.

And judging by the way things are done at Qantas, it won’t be the last.

Despite the bull**** fauxpologies from Goyder and (mis)management, there’s no accountability for, or ownership of, the myriad of problems that they’ve caused, and there’s also nothing to show that they understand the purpose of Qantas, and that it isn’t there solely for the purpose of enriching themselves while treating customers and staff like ****.

[Trevor the lover]

Just playing devil's advocate here for a bit.

Media writers and readers of Pprune are keeping QF's behaviour at the front of mind - we read here, we back each other up, we argue, we learn new stuff. It's still active
as far as we are concerned. But the average punter - have they turned away from QF in any effective way? It looks like just as many people in the QF terminals. I'm not
so sure it has changed the punter's travelling habits. I hope it has. But like hearing that someone you hardly know has got a terminal disease - we forget about it and get on
with our own lives.

I hope the rhetoric continues - I'm just sceptical about the true outcomes. I also hope Pruners can give me examples of where it has all hurt QF.

[C441]

Just playing devil's advocate here for a bit.
But the average punter - have they turned away from QF in any effective way? It looks like just as many people in the QF terminals. I'm not
so sure it has changed the punter's travelling habits.
A look at loads recently suggests that there are generally plenty of seats down the back but the premium cabins are reasonably busy.
Internationally there are dozens of commercial upgrade requests on most flights. Could it be that the Frequent Flyers are disposing of their points via upgrade requests (as international rewards seats are a rare commodity) before moving to another FF program?

[Lapon]

But the average punter - have they turned away from QF in any effective way? It looks like just as many people in the QF terminals. I'm not
so sure it has changed the punter's travelling habits. I hope it has. But like hearing that someone you hardly know has got a terminal disease - we forget about it and get on
with our own lives.


Couldn't agree more. Is it that those running the show are oblivious as to how bad it is (possible), or is it that they have worked out that it doesn't really matter how bad they act or run the place as it won't matter one bit throughout thier tenure (probable).

Punters are not turning away in droves because they have little choice, so where is the incentive to improve?
Lack of action could jeopardize the company in the long term, but other than the longer serving staff who really cares?
Goyder is halfway out the door with his cronies, the institutional investors enabled the current mess in the first place with thier short term focus, and joe public will get to A-B with whoever fills the void.

I hope I'm wrong, but anecdotally it does seem to be unfolding that way.

[dragon man]

Will Hudson follow suite? I doubt it.Virgin ground staff win pay rises of up to 20 per centAyesha de Kretser (https://archive.md/o/QTMDN/https://www.afr.com/by/ayesha-de-kretser-p535y1)Senior reporterNov 20, 2023 – 4.24pm
Save

ShareVirgin Australia has dodged the threat of disruptive industrial action from ground staff during the peak Christmas period, agreeing to a pay deal that will deliver some workers pay rises as high as 20 per cent in the first year.
The three-year pay deal involves a minimum 14.9 per cent increase across all pay grades, regardless of seniority, and comes after baggage handlers and cleaners won the right to a protected action ballot at the Fair Work Commission in late October (https://archive.md/o/QTMDN/https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/virgin-ground-crew-step-toward-strike-for-new-pay-deal-20231023-p5ee8w). https://archive.md/QTMDN/daff0cebb1a5cdbaca522cd73d50d936d1f15a00.webp The Transport Workers Union says the Virgin pay deal “corrects pay and conditions after pandemic sacrifice” for staff including baggage handlers and cleaners. Robert Rough Ground workers won 8.4 per cent in the first year, followed by 3 per cent and 3.5 per cent, after forgoing wage increases during the COVID-19 pandemic and as Virgin Australia entered administration. The airline has returned to profit for the first time in 11 years, as appetite for travel propelled earnings.
A small cohort of managers will get 20 per cent in year one of the agreement in recognition of their sacrifices during the pandemic, the Transport Workers Union said.
It is understood the highest-paid ground workers earn $67,000 a year before penalties and allowances while the lowest paid are believed to earn about $48,886 a year. The deal sets a precedent as Virgin tries to close out negotiations with cabin crew and pilots, before it resumes work to relist on the ASX in May. Cabin crew also sought the right to a protected action ballot last week (https://archive.md/o/QTMDN/https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/virgin-faces-strikes-ahead-of-christmas-and-ipo-20231113-p5ejh2) after failing to reach agreement on pay.
The Reserve Bank of Australia is closely watching wage growth to ensure it does not spiral and undermine inflation-fighting measures. Annual wages growth hit 4 per cent in the September quarter, at the upper band of what the RBA sees as sustainable for inflation. (https://archive.md/o/QTMDN/https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/jobs-and-wages-won-t-move-the-rba-this-year-20231116-p5ekli)
A Virgin spokeswoman said the airline was pleased to have reached agreement and stressed costs were not disproportionately high.
“The overall cost of this agreement is in line with the agreements we have reached with other work groups, and include increases to base wages, skills progression adjustments, allowances and productivity improvements,” she said.
TWU National Secretary Michael Kaine acknowledged Virgin had not followed rival Qantas’ lead, after the High Court ruled that Qantas had acted illegally in sacking 1700 ground workers at least in part to ward off industrial action.
“Workers are the backbone of an airline. Virgin’s commitment to in-source more jobs is a stark contrast to the brutal, illegal outsourcing approach of its rival, Qantas,” Mr Kaine said.
“Good, secure jobs are the answer to rebuilding Virgin Australia and the aviation industry. This deal will encourage workers to remain with the airline, while increased part-time hours and full-time positions will assist with on-time performance.”
The TWU said Virgin has also agreed to implement workplace safety measures including an extreme weather policy and changes to rostering numbers, “as well as correcting poverty pay that had led to workers juggling second or third jobs.”
“This is the premium enterprise agreement Virgin workers knew they needed to achieve from Bain Capital to correct pay and conditions and make jobs more secure after administration and pandemic sacrifices had left them struggling to make ends meet,” Mr Kaine said

[The Love Doctor]

Is it that those running the show are oblivious as to how bad it is

That is precisely the situation as I see it.

[V-Jet]

Will Hudson follow suite? I doubt it.

No way! She will get FAR more than 20%!

[RollThroughApproved]

Will Hudson follow suite? I doubt it. It is understood the highest-paid ground workers earn $67,000 a year before penalties and allowances


I think that puts them above Qlink Dash 8 FOs now.

[walesregent]

Just playing devil's advocate here for a bit.

Media writers and readers of Pprune are keeping QF's behaviour at the front of mind - we read here, we back each other up, we argue, we learn new stuff. It's still active
as far as we are concerned. But the average punter - have they turned away from QF in any effective way? It looks like just as many people in the QF terminals. I'm not
so sure it has changed the punter's travelling habits. I hope it has. But like hearing that someone you hardly know has got a terminal disease - we forget about it and get on
with our own lives.

I hope the rhetoric continues - I'm just sceptical about the true outcomes. I also hope Pruners can give me examples of where it has all hurt QF.

Punters may not be the issue. Sure they’ll keep turning up- what else can they do?- but will resent the process thoroughly enough to invite more regulatory oversight. Eventually (and I don’t think this is more than a medium possibility), someone external might come in and enforce organisational change (enhanced consumer protection, minimum service guarantees, whatever), and that’s what keeps management up at night.

[V-Jet]

I had some sympathy for Qantas but it’s very interesting they are just charging a ‘booking fee’ on top of Expedia - which they no doubt do with everyone they do business with
——————

Hotel booking made with Qantas website ‘didn’t exist’ when Aussie arrived at accomodationA non-existent hotel booking was what greeted an Australian man after his long-haul flight, despite him paying Qantas for it months earlier.

An Australian man has revealed the crushing moment he arrived at the overseas accommodation he booked and paid for via Qantas only to be told his booking didn’t exist.

Melbourne local Aaron Smith paid for his 12-night stay at Apollo Dimora Calicut, in India’s south, through the Qantas website in September, along with his flights.

When he arrived at the hotel – where he stayed for a business trip – on November 9 however, staff claimed they had no record of his booking, and because it was late in the evening, he had no way of contacting the airline.



“We resolved to create a temporary booking so I could contact Qantas in the morning, which I did, but they reiterated that the booking was active and confirmed,” Mr Smith told news.com.au.

Hotel staff initially doubled down on having no record and it was only after several days it found his booking.

At that point however, staff told him he would need to pay about 30 per cent more than what he paid through the Qantas site because he had been given the incorrect rate.

A series of chat messages and emails between the traveller and Qantas subsequently unfolded, during which it was revealed that Qantas was “essentially a wrapper” for Expedia, a third-party holiday booking site.



Both the hotel and airline told him they were “waiting on Expedia” to resolve the issue, despite the site not being mentioned at all throughout the booking process.

Mr Smith argued Expedia should have been “completely taken out of the loop in the resolution” given Qantas didn’t outwardly indicate it used the site.



“My suspicion is that the hotel doesn’t manage its listings very well and probably have wrong pricing all over the place,” he said.

“But my issue throughout this whole process has been the ongoing communication with Qantas and their inability to get a resolution up until this morning [Tuesday].”

He didn’t rule out that a post he made to X, formerly Twitter, could have spurred the airline into finding a resolution.

“I did that to try to apply pressure and get a response because I was completely out of options otherwise,” he said.

Hotel staff insisted he paid an increased rate, which was expected to be the equivalent of about $300 on top of what he already paid.

Shortly after he contacted news.com.au to share his experience, and after almost two weeks in limbo, Mr Smith was informed by Qantas that it would cover additional charges imposed by the hotel when he checked out.

“Arguably this should’ve happened 10 days ago rather than five hours before checking out,” he said.

“I typically like Qantas as an organisation but I just think they dropped the ball here.”

While Mr Smith was able to absorb the temporary loss of $300, he worried that others with different circumstances could be seriously impacted.

“I’m concerned that other people would go through this and not have the capacity to get it resolved,” he said.

The ongoing issue also distracted from the work Mr Smith was in India to complete, he added.

“I’m focused on work and this is a distraction. It’s just something I don’t need and I don’t want to spend any time on it. I wasted a lot of time.”

Qantas told news.com.au it had since apologised to Mr Smith and would be paying for all of his accommodation, including the additional charges.

“We sincerely apologise to Mr Smith for this situation and have worked with him and the hotel to resolve the issue,” a spokesperson said.

“In recognition of his experience we have provided Mr Smith with a full refund for the booking and the extra charge.”

The airline said it was working with Expedia to “understand how this has happened”.

Qantas also confirmed bookings with Apollo Dimora Calicut, where Mr Smith stayed, were facilitated by Expedia.

Mr Smith would also be provided a $250 Qantas Hotels voucher.

[On eyre]

WTF has that got to do with Joyce retiring early 😳

[JamieMaree]

WTF has that got to do with Joyce retiring early 😳

anything to put sh*t on Qantas as Vjet, Dragon Man others want to do.
Fancy using anything from Crikey as an authoritative source.

[dragon man]

anything to put sh*t on Qantas as Vjet, Dragon Man others want to do.
Fancy using anything from Crikey as an authoritative source.


We don’t put **** on Qantas they do it to themselves and might I add very very well. If you don’t enjoy it don’t read it.

[V-Jet]

I get the vague reference might upset people, but I look at it like this.

Like selling ‘ghost flights’ I see there possibly being two sides to the story and in this case, certainly the hotel has a lot to do with it - Qantas can’t be responsible for everything they do business with and I’m sure everyone appreciated that.

However, with the Qantas brand being used to sell anything it can market, what I found interesting was an insight into outsourcing from a marketing perspective.

Getting a glimpse of Qantas’ inner workings I found fascinating. And I fully understand it may be just me that sees it that way, but Abercrombie & Kent, Expedia is not. I would liken it to (something like) David Jones retailing Kogan stock in their stores, but charging customers 20% more for the privilege.

I don’t think many people booking through Qantas.com would do so if they realised they simply paying for Expedia + a ‘handling fee’ + GST and bonuses.

At least - that’s my take! Don’t take my comments too personally - unless your Qf bonus is over $500k, they are not directed at you!

[Mr Mossberg]

I think that puts them above Qlink Dash 8 FOs now.

So, the next toilet cleaners award should put them above a Qlink Dash 8 FO as well.

[Mr Mossberg]

Qantas can’t be responsible for everything they do business with and I’m sure everyone appreciated that.

Can't they? Do you reckon they could vet who they do business with perhaps? And not do business with sites that have virtually no customer service or no way of fixing issues such as these?

[V-Jet]

PS: Newscorp article - not Crikey. I should have credited it.

Mr Mossberg - little argument from me, but taken to the extreme I wouldn’t blame Miss Management (Elaine’s Wig) for a flat tyre on a car I rent through Qf. But who they (she?) is jumping into bed with does raise my eyebrow.

As I wrote and I the reason I posted it, Expedia is not a ‘premium’ brand. For Qantas to grab it, put a Qf Club entry onto it and mark it up (no doubt substantially) I find very interesting.

I doubt it’s ever going to be illegal but like many things, Qf does it is likely morally questionable. If I was in the hot seat I would be ceasing all such arrangements as a matter of priority. Cheapening the brand is extremely damaging. And my word, they’ve done a LOT of that…

[Chronic Snoozer]

I get the vague reference might upset people, but I look at it like this.

Like selling ‘ghost flights’ I see there possibly being two sides to the story and in this case, certainly the hotel has a lot to do with it - Qantas can’t be responsible for everything they do business with and I’m sure everyone appreciated that.

However, with the Qantas brand being used to sell anything it can market, what I found interesting was an insight into outsourcing from a marketing perspective.

Getting a glimpse of Qantas’ inner workings I found fascinating. And I fully understand it may be just me that sees it that way, but Abercrombie & Kent, Expedia is not. I would liken it to (something like) David Jones retailing Kogan stock in their stores, but charging customers 20% more for the privilege.

I don’t think many people booking through Qantas.com would do so if they realised they simply paying for Expedia + a ‘handling fee’ + GST and bonuses.

At least - that’s my take! Don’t take my comments too personally - unless your Qf bonus is over $500k, they are not directed at you!

It's a brand that happens to have a fleet of aircraft. QANTAS Insurance FFS? Live by the brand, die by the brand.

I want to fly with an airline that appreciates aviation and the 'journey', not one that considers me a walking cash register. But QANTAS isn't the only 'profit vehicle' that takes their customers for mugs and tries to leverage loyalty.

And that is not a reflection of the fine people that work at QANTAS, that is squarely aimed at the beancounters and executives.

[dragon man]

The gift that just keeps on giving.


QANTAS STAFF FUME AT PROSPECT OF AN EXTRA $6.1M JOYCE BONUS
Tansy HarcourtQantas staff have become increasingly furious that former Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce is in line for a further $6.1m pay cheque under so-called long-term incentive bonuses – on top of the $21.4m he’s already gearing up to receive.

The former boss of the nation’s biggest airline will leave with more than $28m, taking his total tally to more than $150m for 15 years in the captain’s seat.

During this period, the airline cut a quarter of its staff and was found to have illegally fired 1700 of them.

“It just became all about the money for Alan,” said one very senior former Qantas executive of his peer’s motivations. “I still can’t believe how much he changed as a person.”

To put it in perspective, Qantas paid $1.3bn in dividends over the 15-year period, meaning Mr Joyce has pocketed 12 per cent of the overall payout tally for himself.

Qantas has suffered an unprecedented breakdown in reputation over the past two years following a litany of failures including cancelled and late flights, difficult-to-use credits vouchers, lost bags, illegally firing staff and allegedly selling tickets on already cancelled services. To top it all off, the board approved Mr Joyce selling $17m of shares when he knew (but the market didn’t) that the airline was being investigated.

The airline is the competition watchdog’s most complained about company for the second year running and, just this week, it topped the list for least-on-time *departures, even underperforming its own low-cost unit, Jetstar.

In announcing the 83 per cent vote against its remuneration *report, Qantas chairman Richard Goyder conceded it was “obviously a very clear message from shareholders”, but still didn’t clarify that the correct figure to be cited should not have been $21.4m but actually closer to $28m, *including the long-term bonuses.

The extra $6.1m Mr Joyce stands to receive and the millions of dollars that Andrew David, the former CEO of Qantas Domestic and the frontman for the illegal firing of Qantas baggage handlers, is set to receive also raises a bigger question of why companies are so opaque about continued bonus payments to former staff after they leave.

Australian Shareholders Association CEO Rachel Waterhouse said that companies needed to be clear about how much money in bonuses former executives stood to take from firms after they left.

“It needs to be transparent,” Ms Waterhouse said. “It’s an issue that shareholders are actively voting against at the moment.”

In the case of Qantas, the board did elect to trim 20 per cent from Mr Joyce’s payout, taking it down to the widely publicised $21.4m, and the company points out that it is yet to pay out the bonus portion of that figure, citing clawback provisions.

This same clawback would apply to the additional $6.1m long-term bonus but only if the board is able to legally prove that he acted with misconduct. Most believe this will be unlikely.

Ms Waterhouse said the ASA was in favour of expanding “the clawback and malus clauses so that the company is not completely reliant on proving misconduct should management decisions cause risk or loss”.

Another shareholder questioned the whole premise of why a top executive would continue to receive their long-term incentive bonus at all upon leaving, given they would already receive their short-term incentive bonus and their *salary for a set period of time when they could not work elsewhere.

However Dean Paatsch, a proxy and governance risk adviser from Ownership Matters, said it was still better for executives to have their bonuses tied up with long-term performance rather than short.

“I’m a big supporter of long-term incentives if shareholders get rich, as I say, it beats the *alternative for people that paid out in cash, and get to laugh in the face of declining shareholder experience.”

He added that it “stops someone staying around well beyond their use-by date”.

In the case of Qantas and Alan Joyce, some people may disagree.

It’s no wonder the usually outspoken Irishman remains in Dublin, spending time with his elderly mother to be sure, but also far away from *intrusive questions about why he should be paid almost $28m when he has left the airline in a mess on all measures apart from profit.

[1A_Please]

It's no wonder the fleet planning at QF was such a mess, the entire executive team was busy working on executive incentive schemes.

[neville_nobody]

It's no wonder the fleet planning at QF was such a mess, the entire executive team was busy working on executive incentive schemes.

This is the fundamental problem with all of Australian Aviation.

[V333]

This is the fundamental problem with all of Australian Aviation.

And all of corporate Australia in general...

[Slippery_Pete]

It's no wonder the fleet planning at QF was such a mess, the entire executive team was busy working on executive incentive schemes.

100%.

Canceled hundreds of cheap aircraft orders. Ghost flights. Expiring credits. Illegal sackings. Outsourced everything. Average fleet age from 6 to 18 years. Potential insider trading.

And his last, parting FU to the future of the airline - his replacement.

[The Love Doctor]

100%.

Canceled hundreds of cheap aircraft orders. Ghost flights. Expiring credits. Illegal sackings. Outsourced everything. Average fleet age from 6 to 18 years. Potential insider trading.

And his last, parting FU to the future of the airline - his replacement.

#jailjoyce

[dragon man]

Today’s qantas flight QF10 PERMEL was cancelled 24hrs ago and not a single person was notified.
Also one lady apparently purchased a ticket an hour or so before the flight and the system still allowed it, more QF 👻✈️ how disgraceful !!

[V-Jet]

For any future reference - is there a source for that QF10 comment? Crikey doesn’t count apparently.

You need to stop putting 💩 on Qantas.

[601]

Did the said Mr Joyce finish at the end of their contract/appointment or did they break their contract/appointment.
If they did, why would they be entitled to any bonus under their contract/appointment.

[dr dre]

For any future reference - is there a source for that QF10 comment? Crikey doesn’t count apparently.

You need to stop putting 💩 on Qantas.

The 10 wasn’t cancelled, as per Flight Aware it departed PER and landed in MEL today albeit a few minutes behind schedule.

Not everything you read on the internet is true

[dragon man]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7185_a28b804bb1fe960582f878d4f495141c3153304d.png

[LAME2]

The 10 wasn’t cancelled,

More cancelled than saying Fridays is leaving early.

i wouldn’t be happy to have bought a ticket on Thursdays flight.

[V-Jet]

Qantas Flights stalled
Syd Telegraph 24/11/23
New Qanats CEO Vanessa Hudson has been accused of failing to live up to her promise to eliminate poor customer service, as flight cancellations continue on Australia's most important business routes.

On-time performance data released this week showed 47 flights were cancelled by Qantas on Canberra-Sydney in October, or 10.1 per cent of flights. Only Melbourne-Sydney fared worse with 111 flight cancellation by Qantas in the month, or 12.1 per cent of services.

The results were not isolated to October, with an average of 50 flights a month cancelled by Qantas on Canberra-Sydney since February. In contrast, Virgin Australia scrapped an average of 10 flights a month on the route, a cancellation rate of around 4 per cent.

[MickG0105]

Qantas Flights stalled
Syd Telegraph 24/11/23
New Qanats CEO Vanessa Hudson has been accused of failing to live up to her promise to eliminate poor customer service, as flight cancellations continue on Australia's most important business routes.

On-time performance data released this week showed 47 flights were cancelled by Qantas on Canberra-Sydney in October, or 10.1 per cent of flights. Only Melbourne-Sydney fared worse with 111 flight cancellation by Qantas in the month, or 12.1 per cent of services.

The results were not isolated to October, with an average of 50 flights a month cancelled by Qantas on Canberra-Sydney since February. In contrast, Virgin Australia scrapped an average of 10 flights a month on the route, a cancellation rate of around 4 per cent.
I don't know if I'd be categorising Sydney - Canberra as a business route, leave alone an important one.

That city pair is ridiculously over-serviced though for its passenger volumes. With only about 53,000 passenger movements a month (which is not even in the top 20 busiest routes by passenger numbers) CBR gets around 650 return flights a month. Form your own views as to why it might get that ridiculous level of service.

[Mr Proach]

The pollies should lead by example and legislate to remove the SYD CBR route for RPT operations (by air) and use a train.

[SIUYA]

Won’t happen Mr Proach….no Qantas CL ‘snouts in trough’ perks to be taken advantage of if they had to travel by train.

[Lead Balloon]

Ah yes, the thrice-daily train service to Canberra known as the '****-Can-Zen'.

5 hours each way would be character building.

[Chronic Snoozer]

It'd be worth it if they built something like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chūō_Shinkansen

At 500 km/h, it would do the trip in 30 mins or so.

[Lead Balloon]

Ah yes, but the Shinkansen is connected to a capital city of a first world aviation nation. In Australia, the control tower at the only airport in the capital city is NOTAMed closed so that the controller can go to the toilet and have a leg stretch.

[framer]

In Australia, the control tower at the only airport in the capital city is NOTAMed closed so that the controller can go to the toilet and have a leg stretch.
That is pretty mental. Meanwhile, there will be 100+ Air Services ‘executives’ collecting more dough than the controller to work flexi lines from home sending important t emails about carbon footprint reduction and letterhead fonts.The % of the workforce that ‘manages’ the people who produce something of value has become so large that the revenue created eats itself paying them and we can’t afford the actual workers!

[10JQKA]

Optus CEO lasted about 3 days after a 15hr outage.
AirNoServices has had 15months of service outages and business as usual.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Optus CEO lasted about 3 days after a 15hr outage.
AirNoServices has had 15months of service outages and business as usual.

How often has AirServices been front page news?

[neville_nobody]

Optus CEO lasted about 3 days after a 15hr outage.
AirNoServices has had 15months of service outages and business as usual.

Benefits of being a government corporate monopoly.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

To top it all off, the board approved Mr Joyce selling $17m of shares when both they and he knew (but the market didn’t) that the airline was being investigated.
Fixed that for you Tansy.

[dragon man]

Good to see VH is on top of all the problems. Never heard of this happening before.

IT’S FIGHT OR FLIGHT FOR QANTASAfter the reign of Alan Joyce in the top office of Qantas, and with Richard Goyder’s tenure as chair set to continue into next year, Australia’s national carrier is finding few friends.

Everyone’s got an opinion on what’s gone wrong with the Flying Kangaroo.

Now winging its way to Margin Call’s desk are details of a recent incident a fortnight ago on Qantas’s regular QF2 flight from Singapore to Sydney, where at least one prominent Australian businessman and passenger was left very cranky.

So angry, in fact, that former investment banker turned non-executive director Charles Kiefel ended up being escorted off the flight by the Australian Federal Police after a debate he was having with the pilot got out of hand.

Kiefel, the chair of Principals Funds Management and a one-time executive at Ord Minnett and ANZ Investment Bank, declined to comment when contacted about the unfortunate incident on the almost eight-hour international flight.

The argument, we understand, concerned repeated delays Kiefel had experienced courtesy of the airline, which we hear also misplaced his luggage. The bags were located and returned several days later.

However, we hear that once Kiefel, who in June 2019 was appointed as a Member of the Order of Australia for significant service to Australia-US relations and to philanthropy, had been walked off the plane by authorities he had calmed down considerably, with no further action taken and no charges laid.

Qantas also declined to comment on the matter. The AFP was also contacted.

Kiefel, 68, has had a long and illustrious career in finance. He has been a director of the Clean Energy Regulator, was a decades-long member of the Menzies Foundation Council and a member of advisory boards at private equity outfits PEP and CHAMP.

[megan]

I wonder what he thought venting his spleen on the pilot was going to achieve, better calling Goyder who is on the same status level, I'm sure they would have shared a cocktail or two.

[MickG0105]

I wonder what he thought venting his spleen on the pilot was going to achieve, better calling Goyder who is on the same status level, I'm sure they would have shared a cocktail or two.
The old "Don't you know who I am?!" line doesn't have the same ring to it when the other person actually knows who you are, more so when they have similar standing - no power gradient.

[megan]

"Don't you know who I am?!"Actually saw that line in use once in the 70's. Group of pilots sitting in the crewroom chewing the fat when the book in chap walked in and said he had a guy at the counter who didn't know who he was, could we be of assistance. Half dozen or so pilots wandered out to the counter and encircled the passenger, Do you know who he is Fred, no do you know who he is Peter, no do you know who he is Les etc etc No one knew him, chagrined passenger had to proffer his name, private operation so no customer dissatisfaction to worry about.

His power gradient with respect to the pilot wasn't going to elicit satisfaction, nothing the pilot could do, he might as well have taken on the new hire janitor in the toilet of the "Club", results would have been the same, a write up in the media making you look the fool you are.

[dragon man]

National (https://archive.md/o/CssdX/https://www.smh.com.au/national)
CBD (https://archive.md/o/CssdX/https://www.smh.com.au/cbd)

Alan Joyce keeps dodging Sydney Theatre Company crisisBy Kishor Napier-Raman (https://archive.md/o/CssdX/https://www.smh.com.au/by/kishor-napier-raman-p5369q) and Noel Towell (https://archive.md/o/CssdX/https://www.smh.com.au/by/noel-towell-hven2)December 12, 2023 When the Sydney Theatre Company appointed former Qantas boss Alan Joyce as its chair in March, it probably felt the job would be a breeze for him.
A long-term chief executive of an iconic national company and one of the institution’s “angel” donors who has given more than $100,000, what the hell could go wrong?
But then Joyce’s year took a turn for the worse – scandals over Qatar Airways slots, influence over government and legal action from the competition regulator over selling tickets on cancelled flights – forcing the boss to bring his departure date forward two months.
Joyce has barely been heard from ever since, meaning he’s missing in action as the STC faces a major meltdown of its own. A protest staged by three actors supporting Palestinians killed in Gaza led to a subscriber exodus, a cancelled show, three foundation board members quitting and plenty of criticism of the company’s handling of a highly sensitive political issue.
Never has the company needed a bigger dose of decisive, experienced leadership.
But perhaps after a year of company scandal and generally tin-eared responses, Joyce has realised he’s not the man for a crisis because he remains nowhere to be seen. He didn’t front a Senate inquiry into the Qatar Airways fiasco in September due to being overseas. When we asked the STC when he was returning, a spokesperson reiterated that Joyce has been on leave since October 12.
Most recently, he was spotted in Dublin. And while we get the need for a break after stepping away from one of the biggest jobs in corporate Australia, we reckon if Joyce is serious about the theatre, he ought to be on a plane home.

[dragon man]

Apologies to Mick for again showing my near pathological hatred to Qantas.

QANTAS CHIEF ‘WALKING AWAY’ FROM MEDIATION
EWIN HANNANThe Transport Workers Union will pursue hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation from Qantas on behalf of illegally sacked workers after accusing the airline of walking away from court-ordered mediation.

TWU national secretary Michael Kaine said Qantas under its new chief executive Vanessa Hudson was engaging in the “same spiteful tactics” as her *predecessor Alan Joyce, despite a backlash from shareholders, *customers and the public.

In September, the High Court upheld two previous rulings that the airline’s outsourcing of 1700 workers during the Covid pandemic was unlawful.

At the time, Qantas said it would reach out to the TWU “to discuss reaching agreement on a settlement for the people involved, as reasonably and quickly as possible”.

Qantas also offered an apology to the workers affected, saying “we deeply regret the personal *impact the outsourcing decision had on all those affected”.

Mr Kaine said on Sunday that the union met with Ms Hudson where “she reiterated that she wanted to settle this as quickly as possible, (but) now we’re getting the run-around”.

“These people who are subject to the largest sackings in corporate history have suffered enough,” he said. “Qantas should be mediating five days a week to get this done and they’re not.”

In a statement on Sunday, Qantas said the TWU was “mischaracterising these discussions, not to mention breaching the strict confidentiality that applies to them”.

“We have not walked away from mediation and hope to reach an agreement in good faith, the company said. “We accept accountability for the outsourcing decision and we stand by what we said about wanting to resolve this quickly and fairly.”

If an agreement cannot be reached, the court has set a hearing on compensation for March.

The court process could take up to two years

Mr Kaine said the union expressed dissatisfaction to Qantas last week about the mediation progress

“We said to them last week, ‘enough’s enough’,” he said.

“They left the mediation and basically said, “no, we’re not in the territory to settle’ and then it was just left. We tried to contact them three or four times with no response. So last week we said to them we want a response from you about whether you are willing to mediate and we want it by close of business on Wednesday afternoon. Nothing.

“By the end of the week, there was a vanilla email from a lawyer saying the mediation is still open, but there is no willingness to even talk about a date. So as far as we’re concerned, they have walked away from it.”

Lawyers for the TWU have said they would seek to have the Federal Court order Qantas to pay a significant amount of *compensation to the adversely impacted workers and pay a *“significant” penalty for its unlawful conduct.

If the workers were individually compensated an average of $70,000, Qantas would face a bill of $112m. Potential penalties under the Fair Work Act would be as high as $100m.

Mr Kaine said the compensation would be much higher if the union’s arguments were accepted by the court.

“You are looking at hundreds of millions of dollars and that’s what we will be pursuing in court,” he said “We want to mediate but that’s what we will be pursuing in court.

“The illegal sackings led to marital breakdowns, serious mental and physical health conditions, and workers having to sell their homes or move in with family and friends. Roughly half of outsourced workers surveyed drew down their super to survive.

“Meanwhile, Qantas posted a record $2.5bn profit for the last *financial year,” Mr Kaine said.

[73to91]

The Chairman's Lounge - published by Simon & Schuster, written by former AFR columnist Joe Aston.

https://www.travelweekly.com.au/article/the-chairmans-lounge-the-book-qantas-and-alan-joyce-dont-want-written-will-hit-the-shelves-this-year/

Can't wait.

[Lead Balloon]

Andrew McGinnes (Qantas group executive for corporate affairs) has announced his resignation.

[hoss58]

News.com is this morning reporting that AJ has resigned as the chair of the Sydney Theatre Company.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The Chairman's Lounge - published by Simon & Schuster, written by former AFR columnist Joe Aston.

https://www.travelweekly.com.au/article/the-chairmans-lounge-the-book-qantas-and-alan-joyce-dont-want-written-will-hit-the-shelves-this-year/

Can't wait.

I wonder if Qantas will attempt to block this one too.

[ampclamp]

Joyce got Lucinda Holdforth's book banned due to the attempted publication of “confidential internal information that she was privy to” as an employee.

Sadly, it will never see the light of day given there was a settlement.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Joyce got Lucinda Holdforth's book banned due to the attempted publication of “confidential internal information that she was privy to” as an employee.

Sadly, it will never see the light of day given there was a settlement.

It’s not unlike Qantas to control (or try to) the narrative. Joe is on target every time and I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an attempt at an injunction of some form.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Other than banning the AFR on QANTAS aircraft and in the lounges, I can't recall whether QANTAS took any legal action against Aston's articles. Presumably they were dripping in fact.

[ampclamp]

They would need to be wary of "Streisanding" themselves by giving him a free publicity. Because any attempt to shut him down would be newsworthy given Qantas has been on the nose for some time now. And the press love to pile in when it gets clicks.

That said, they dont seem to mind spending ship loads taking things through the courts, so you maybe right.

I really look forward to having a read. Aston has a talent for insightful vitriol

[walesregent]

It’s not unlike Qantas to control (or try to) the narrative. Joe is on target every time and I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an attempt at an injunction of some form.

Hope they try. I’m sure Joe hopes so too.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Hope they try. I’m sure Joe hopes so too.

Me too! A second book right there.

[dejapoo]

News.com is this morning reporting that AJ has resigned as the chair of the Sydney Theatre Company.

Which theatre production? He left the other one in September.

[hoss58]

Which theatre production? He left the other one in September.

This is the headline of the article,Alan Joyce resigns as chair of Sydney Theatre Company
No particular production mentioned in the article.

[Pinky the pilot]

Just quite possibly I have missed something (not unusual for me...) but I seem to remember quite some time back, reading that AJ had been ordered to return to Australia to appear before some Senate enquiry, and that there were dire consequences in store if he failed to do so!

All that seems to have gone extremely quite. I wonder why?:confused:

[SOPS]

Just quite possibly I have missed something (not unusual for me...) but I seem to remember quite some time back, reading that AJ had been ordered to return to Australia to appear before some Senate enquiry, and that there were dire consequences in store if he failed to do so!

All that seems to have gone extremely quite. I wonder why?:confused:

I remember the same, Pinky.

[Hoosten]

Joyce bailed on STC stating he didn't have the time to help fix the mess created by the anti semites. There were multiple uncomplimentary remarks made regarding Joyce's actions, stating he wouldn't have the ability to fix any of the problems anyway, was only there to push his agendas and most were relieved when he tendered his resignation.

[Stationair8]

Senate enquiry, that’s another theatrical production held in Canberra.

Canberra will still be closed, due to Christmas, Australia Day, then Easter so we lucky to see the Joyce theatrical production until mid year.

Then it will be like getting hit by a wet tissue.

[hoss58]

Good morning dajapoo.

My wife says i'm a bit slow sometimes and this is one of those occasions.

Your post is now understood.

Cheers

Hoss58

[V-Jet]

Qantas calls in McKinsey consultancy to help fix flight delay issuesTHEAUSTRALIAN.COM.AU10:00Qantas has appointed a second consultancy firm to focus on reducing flight delays and cancellations, as the airline strives to rebuild its brand and reputation.Months after hiring “transformation specialists” Boston Consulting Group (BCG), Qantas has confirmed prestigious management consultancy McKinsey has been brought in for a 12-week special project.

It’s understood McKinsey’s role is to focus on lifting the airline’s on-time performance, which remains well below what it was pre-Covid, at around 70 per cent instead of in the 80s.

Despite leading competitor Virgin Australia, Qantas is adamant it can do better and believes McKinsey will help it get there.

Through McKinsey’s global network, Qantas hopes to tap into world-best practice, given the firm has done similar work for other airlines.

The appointment is intended to demonstrate Qantas’ commitment to returning to its former status as a reliable, well-regarded airline – revered by competitors and loved by customers.

Upon taking over from former CEO Alan Joyce last year, new chief executive Vanessa Hudson pledged $230m to invest in customer service and fix “pain points”.

BCG was brought into assist with that and the transition from Mr Joyce to Ms Hudson, as part of “Project Dawn”.

That project is now considered complete, with Qantas reporting a doubling in its key measure of customer satisfaction from November to December.

In a note to staff last week, Ms Hudson thanked employees for their “fantastic work” over the festive season, and said there was “a lot to be excited about in 2024”.

“Our fleet renewal program continues with QantasLink’s second A220 touching down next week,” Ms Hudson wrote.

“Jetstar welcomed two more A321NEOs over the holiday period, bringing the fleet to 11. And preparations are underway for Qantas Domestic’s A321XLRs arriving from the end of this year.”

The new aeroplanes are unlikely to be enough to stave off other headwinds for Qantas, including court cases and a hefty compensation bill.

An Australian Competition and Consumer Commission lawsuit is set to play out in court this year, alleging Qantas sold tickets on already cancelled flights over several months in 2022.

The airline is also the subject of a class action by customers who were left with difficult-to-use travel credits, following thousands of Covid-related flight cancellations.

Then there is the illegal outsourcing matter, with Qantas facing a huge compensation bill for the 1600 workers affected, plus a big fine.

Aircraft engineers are also pursuing the airline in a beef over payment of employees in Los Angeles.

And last week Qantas was back in the headlines after releasing a new safety video, which was slammed by flight attendants (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-to-retire-centenary-safety-video-in-favour-of-new-shorter-take/news-story/f443906e65bdf5647e618cf2a324259d) who deemed it to be sexist and elitist, as well as dismissive of important safety information.

Flight Attendants Association of Australia federal secretary Teri O’Toole said she had written to Ms Hudson asking her to can the six-minute video, filmed over 40 days across 10 countries.

The video is being rolled out progressively on domestic and international flights in the place of the centenary video, used by Qantas since 2020.

[artee]

Qantas calls in McKinsey consultancy to help fix flight delay issuesTHEAUSTRALIAN.COM.AU10:00Qantas has appointed a second consultancy firm to focus on reducing flight delays and cancellations, as the airline strives to rebuild its brand and reputation.Months after hiring “transformation specialists” Boston Consulting Group (BCG), Qantas has confirmed prestigious management consultancy McKinsey has been brought in for a 12-week special project.

It’s understood McKinsey’s role is to focus on lifting the airline’s on-time performance, which remains well below what it was pre-Covid, at around 70 per cent instead of in the 80s...

Colour me confused. Isn't running planes an airlines core competence? Needing external consultants (whose core competence isn't aviation) to advise on running planes on time...

[Chronic Snoozer]

​​​​Upon taking over from former CEO Alan Joyce last year, new chief executive Vanessa Hudson pledged $230m to invest in customer service and fix “pain points”. The consultancy firms will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of getting their hands on cash for telling QANTAS what it probably already knows.

The marketing department should not be allowed to direct safety videos. The JAL bonfire has provided sufficient evidence why a safety video needs to be 100% on safety, simple and succinct. That video is tone deaf to the seriousness with which safety has to be promoted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjRTEjGWuw0

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The consultancy firms will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of getting their hands on cash for telling QANTAS what it probably already knows.

The marketing department should not be allowed to direct safety videos. The JAL bonfire has provided sufficient evidence why a safety video needs to be 100% on safety, simple and succinct. That video is tone deaf to the seriousness with which safety has to be promoted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjRTEjGWuw0

But it’s Qantas, safety if assured anyway.

[Ken Borough]

BCG have been used by Qantas in better days. After one such consultancy some BCG staff found themselves on the Qantas payroll. Their contributions to a better Qantas were lamentable. :ugh:

[Superman1]

So so bizarre you would need to tap into the wisdom of BCG and McKinsey to come into an airline to teach them how to improve OTP?! I understand maybe complex financial re-structures or complex international tax issues they may be able to provide some advisory services….. but OTP?!? It does seem however to be back slapping and congrats all around that BCG could improve NPS scores though.

Personally I think if after many years of budget and staff cuts, the executive team begrudgingly handed millions of dollars to any department/employee to actually invest and spend the money, and asked them to please fix our call centres and customer response times, they would be able to achieve the exact same thing….. Anyone would have loved the green light to spend the money on more staff, more training and give the front line agents some added flexibility to address customer issues and grant reasonable compensation when required.

It’s not rocket science and I’m sure it didn’t need to cost QF a few million dollars to engage BCG and one of their grads to think how to spend the cash.

[Username here]

https://youtu.be/AiOUojVd6xQ

[Desert Dawg]

https://youtu.be/AiOUojVd6xQ
Fantastic report by John Olliver!

You beat me to it

[SandyPalms]

McKinsey was the firm that was behind Swissairs disasterous "take over the world" strategy in the 1990's that ultimately ended up in their bankruptcy. Swiss was then formed out of Crossair, which was to Swissair what Network is to Qantas now. I can see where their going with this. Hold onto your hats.

[MikeHatter732]

Ahhh, yep this "operational streamlining" will suit QF perfectly....
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/901x592/msedge_3afsvunqck_49aaa59ea940b2026724d4b8b632cc83f2d029c3.p ng

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Fantastic report by John Olliver!

You beat me to it


10:14, pure gold. Blame everything and everyone else but your own stupidity, it’s a thing.

[Pinky the pilot]

The definition of a Consultant; A person whom if asked what time it is, will ask to borrow your watch, read the time off from it and then present you with a bill for some exorbitant amount of money.:mad:

Oh, and fail to give back your watch!:}



Cynical; Who? Me??:confused:

[MickG0105]

McKinsey was the firm that was behind Swissairs disasterous "take over the world" strategy in the 1990's that ultimately ended up in their bankruptcy. Swiss was then formed out of Crossair, which was to Swissair what Network is to Qantas now. I can see where their going with this. Hold onto your hats.
McKinsey were also chosen by Air New Zealand to manage the "integration" of Ansett.

[pax britanica]

Both active in the telecoms world where income from and both a joke, as are managements who hire consultants hired to look at core competence , its like hiring someone to sleep with your partner if you have had a tiff.

As has been said hiring consultantls to look at airline despatch and OTP is ludicirous. there are probably hundreds of people in and recently gone from Qantas who would know what to do but they are the kind of people senior managemnt hold in contempt. Good luck

[GA Driver]

So so bizarre you would need to tap into the wisdom of BCG and McKinsey to come into an airline to teach them how to improve OTP?! I understand maybe complex financial re-structures or complex international tax issues they may be able to provide some advisory services….. but OTP?!? It does seem however to be back slapping and congrats all around that BCG could improve NPS scores though.

It’s not rocket science and I’m sure it didn’t need to cost QF a few million dollars to engage BCG and one of their grads to think how to spend the cash.

Couldn’t agree more. But QF’s contention of nothing BUT consultants and relying on ‘in house’ management would require them to acknowledge that decades of outsourcing, selling off the farm and continual thinning of staff, was the wrong path to go down. This was the consulting groups original business plan to begin with!

Unfortunately even our government has been on this tangent for some years now, so when the big wigs lead by this example, it’s only natural that it’s accepted for big business to follow suit. I think pigs will sooner fly than QF ever admitting they have gone down the wrong path.

[Retired Mobi LAME]

And don't forget the Shepherd and Consultant joke:-A shepherd was tending his flock in a remote pasture when suddenly a dust cloud approached at high speed, out of which emerged a shiny silver BMW. The driver, a young man in an Armani suit, Ferragamo shoes, the latest Polarized sunglasses and a tightly knotted power tie, poked his head out the window and asked the shepherd, “Hey! If I can tell you how many sheep you have in your flock, will you give me one?”

The shepherd looked at the man, then glanced at his peacefully grazing flock and answered, “Sure.”

The driver parked his car, plugged his microscopic cell phone into a laptop and briskly surfed to a GPS satellite navigation system on the Internet and initiated a remote body-heat scan of the area. While the computer was occupied, he sent some e-mail via his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, nodded solemnly at the responses. Finally, he printed a 150 page report on the little laser printer in his glove compartment, turned to the shepherd, waving the sheaves of paper, and pronounced “You have exactly 1,586 sheep.”

“Impressive. One of my sheep is yours,” said the shepherd.

He watched the young man select an animal and bundle it into his car. Then the shepherd said, “If I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my sheep?”

Pleased to meet a fellow sportsman, the young man replied “You’re on.”

“You are a consultant,” said the shepherd without hesitation.

“That’s correct,” said the young man, impressed. “How ever did you guess?”

“It wasn’t a guess,” replied the shepherd. “You drive into my field uninvited. You ask me to pay you for information I already know, answer questions I haven’t asked, and you know nothing about my business. Now give me back my dog.”

[framer]

If it wasn’t such a giant waste of money the McKinsey move would be funny.
There are ports where I have been filing company reports for literally years about the lack of manpower and equipment on the ground causing flight delays. Often the equipment is just a few hundred dollars worth yet still today, the same delays happen because of the lack of it. The people on the ground working split shifts on low wage can easily see the problem, so could your average high school kid, yet we are bringing in international consultants. Hilarious.

[CaptCloudbuster]

All QF need do is ask themselves:

”what is the major change between OTP in the 90’s Vs 60’s %?”

Answer = outsourcing

[GA Driver]

All QF need do is ask themselves:

”what is the major change between OTP in the 90’s Vs 60’s %?”

Answer = outsourcing

It really IS that simple…..

Sadly that won’t put money in managements pockets.

[SOPS]

Mr Joyce really did leave a big mess behind,,,all to line is own pockets.

[Slippery_Pete]

I’ll happily tell them so they don’t need to pay McKinsey.

The last thirty years, the entire direction of the airline has been away from performance, safety and reputation - and towards bonus money schemes for managers.

The kraken was finally released when he was put in charge of Jetstar. Qantas began defecating in their own nest, and rather than growing the airline with hard work, they grew it by slashing long term investment and transfer of business.

They considered themselves successful, because their own pockets starting filling up. They became giddy on their own rhetoric and BS, eventually thinking that they could set social and political policy with force fed on board messages and stickers on aircraft. Becoming champions for the oppressed and gender-unsure, but not becoming champions for staff or share holders.

Meanwhile, the meat and veg of running an airline was being ignored. They told everyone how you can’t make money with B777s, and kept buying hunks of **** to say they had the biggest. Hundreds of options or orders for new, reliable and efficient aircraft to improve the product, and keep the group competitive with other international airlines - cancelled, or given to subsidiaries. Back slaps, Zumba classes and bonuses all round!

Meanwhile, a piss weak board sat back and let it all unfold. The gutting of a premium, revered airline was hidden with accounting and marketing, with pretty buzz words like “game-changing” and “innovation” and “project BS” which the board lapped up with a spoon.

While all this went unchecked, it continued on far too long because they got lucky - lucky that the board and shareholders failed to join the dots, lucky that the only real competitor in Australia couldn’t organise a root in a brothel, and lucky that they (or one of their new subsidiaries) didn’t stack an aircraft.

Hard working, valuable, highly trained and efficient staff were pushed (sometimes illegally) out the door in the thousands - while one person’s bank account swelled towards the size of his ego.

When the curtains were finally pulled back to reveal the ugly truth (thanks in part to Joe Aston, the post COVID startup debacle, illegal sackings and ACCC pending action) a last minute cash grab was approved, a swift coward’s exit and then the world’s biggest pile of steaming **** was dumped in the lap of the incumbent.

There’s no solution here until the whole board is gone.

They can engage as many consultancy firms as they like.

[morno]

God I’d love to put that on the QF Yammer thing 😂😂

[SOPS]

I’ll happily tell them so they don’t need to pay McKinsey.

The last thirty years, the entire direction of the airline has been away from performance, safety and reputation - and towards bonus money schemes for managers.

The kraken was finally released when he was put in charge of Jetstar. Qantas began defecating in their own nest, and rather than growing the airline with hard work, they grew it by slashing long term investment and transfer of business.

They considered themselves successful, because their own pockets starting filling up. They became giddy on their own rhetoric and BS, eventually thinking that they could set social and political policy with force fed on board messages and stickers on aircraft. Becoming champions for the oppressed and gender-unsure, but not becoming champions for staff or share holders.

Meanwhile, the meat and veg of running an airline was being ignored. They told everyone how you can’t make money with B777s, and kept buying hunks of **** to say they had the biggest. Hundreds of options or orders for new, reliable and efficient aircraft to improve the product, and keep the group competitive with other international airlines - cancelled, or given to subsidiaries. Back slaps, Zumba classes and bonuses all round!

Meanwhile, a piss weak board sat back and let it all unfold. The gutting of a premium, revered airline was hidden with accounting and marketing, with pretty buzz words like “game-changing” and “innovation” and “project BS” which the board lapped up with a spoon.

While all this went unchecked, it continued on far too long because they got lucky - lucky that the board and shareholders failed to join the dots, lucky that the only real competitor in Australia couldn’t organise a root in a brothel, and lucky that they (or one of their new subsidiaries) didn’t stack an aircraft.

Hard working, valuable, highly trained and efficient staff were pushed (sometimes illegally) out the door in the thousands - while one person’s bank account swelled towards the size of his ego.

When the curtains were finally pulled back to reveal the ugly truth (thanks in part to Joe Aston, the post COVID startup debacle, illegal sackings and ACCC pending action) a last minute cash grab was approved, a swift coward’s exit and then the world’s biggest pile of steaming **** was dumped in the lap of the incumbent.

There’s no solution here until the whole board is gone.

They can engage as many consultancy firms as they like.

Post of the year.

[dragon man]

And some one who was complicit in all the above was then appointed as CEO.

[framer]

It’s pretty sad really. A little part of me was hopeful that the new CEO was so smart that she would see the opportunity given to her and would make a name for herself that would go down in the Ausi business hall of fame. It was such a great opportunity. All the media, all the senate enquiries, all the court cases, the Chairman’s Lounge debacle, the scene was perfectly set to actually transform the way the airline functioned at a structural level, focus on being a great Airline and harness the massive, and I mean massive power of a huge workforce that was experienced, skilled, beaten up, and ready to get behind someone who would lead the Airline back. Missed it. Probably never saw it. Such a shame.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The new CEO is in a Sophie’s Choice situation. Turning things around would require an admission that something was wrong, thus admitting that the very operation she endorsed while 2IC was rotten…bad. The other option, keep doing the same, is also going to be bad.

They needed to install fresh blood at the top. Blood that isn’t compromised.

[Icarus2001]

You are right framer but she was part of the problem, nearly thirty years of being in on it, she was never going to be the solution.

Air NZ have had CEOs who work as cabin crew and throw bags. If Hudson wants to know how to fix OTP then she should spend a week out of her office and walk around some ramps and crew rooms, talk to staff and ask questions, plenty to be learnt for free from those at the coal face who see the choke points.

[SandyPalms]

You are right framer but she was part of the problem, nearly thirty years of being in on it, she was never going to be the solution.

Air NZ have had CEOs who work as cabin crew and throw bags. If Hudson wants to know how to fix OTP then she should spend a week out of her office and walk around some ramps and crew rooms, talk to staff and ask questions, plenty to be learnt for free from those at the coal face who see the choke points.

She does get out of the office. I've seen many pictures of her smiling in a many lounges around the traps. Not too many of her on the ramp or the flight deck though.

[Chronic Snoozer]

She does get out of the office. I've seen many pictures of her smiling in a many lounges around the traps. Not too many of her on the ramp or the flight deck though.

Probably doesn’t think the ramp or the flight deck is a safe space to discuss LTIPs and STIPs.

[FFG 02]

Air NZ have had CEOs who work as cabin crew and throw bags. If Hudson wants to know how to fix OTP then she should spend a week out of her office and walk around some ramps and crew rooms, talk to staff and ask questions, plenty to be learnt for free from those at the coal face who see the choke points.

Except the staff are now contractors!

[james5236]

He really is delusional when he starts invoking the Royal We. Surely he can't really think that collectively the staff have lived through any lows lately, they have been living through it for the last 15 years! If anything staff morale has improved with the eager anticipation of the Emperor's demise.

[TBM-Legend]

Post of the year.


Well said that man. Qantas like Boeing and others has been infiltrated by the businesses school MBA’s and marketing types with no understanding of the nuances of running an airline and putting the customers at the top for a safe and secure and efficient ride to destinations. Gimmicks abounded all to cut levels of service and use the MBA thesis as the model.

The media deliberately overlooked the Sheila’s roles as one of the architects of this calamity. Why you ask? The teacher’s pet now has the reins.

Her answer to rebuilding the ship is therefore a call to her friends in New York who will go on at huge expense to exchange the sheets in hut A with the sheets in hut B.

A long gone great uncle of mine was none other than Captain Lester Brain. A true boots and all airline guy!

[dragon man]

The only way to start the rebuild is with an outsider who is an airline lifer experienced in operations and or engineering not finance, HR, communications or some other modern day crap. Then maybe they can start to drain the swamp and focus on the airlines prime role of looking after its customers.

[SOPS]

The only way to start the rebuild is with an outsider who is an airline lifer experienced in operations and or engineering not finance, HR, communications or some other modern day crap. Then maybe they can start to drain the swamp and focus on the airlines prime role of looking after its customers.

I would love to apply for the job. And I will do if for an A380 Captain’s salary.

[dragon man]

Alan Joyce lands in Sydney after extended absence from Australiahttps://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/_TvhdjrOsxo6twssDokfzke_MYUt0xm6kIsA9tLKGoYBEgTUMUfPTxEU9aZl NXrrmTbE9GLUqbBjJxKWjAxS12J7Di5GUatP_-R8uApEPLlOmjQR29a1yyaOdny1eApuPIvNWPcvcr52nWfGCB3E8u2bHt6nwa 33Ek4sTq3w9IOOVcvrKrPw5jqf_Cc-uemVKXWH7AJGQFk8kZcS=s0-d-e1-ft#https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/2bbea568b1bc0f85b0926cca57fe614159fe3031
Ayesha de Kretser (https://www.afr.com/by/ayesha-de-kretser-p535y1)Senior reporter
Feb 7, 2024 – 5.00am
Save
Share

Listen to this article
2 minFormer Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has returned to Australia five months after leaving the country following his abrupt exit from the national carrier.

Mr Joyce arrived at Sydney Airport on Monday evening, having spent most of his time overseas with his family in Dublin, where he was born. His return comes as his successor at Qantas, Vanessa Hudson, prepares to hand down her first set of results.

Mr Joyce left the airline in early September, months earlier than scheduled, after a backlash from shareholders and political acrimony over the airline’s poor service and allegations it was selling flights it had already decided to cancel to help it preserve lucrative landing rights at Sydney Airport.
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/LKwmvHPFn8WU0rq5IOkNwdZwx-20Dai4WK-hF0gp_aqa0DbYB6C7ay3JCrTw7Ex8zDVNqXYDeGMw9l71dEb2pDGMXOBGGdo kZPPTQ-TqPgWUoZ9URRKqFinjBWvnX6rSRx6XwZtmj_qAqGF2XyWO0BlwGviXWuXwH4 i9KXM_lZWjCJcBQDaHVn2wETjG8Uqok0hxP7i8VGcoBMKz4arEhDA3f6nsog fNXtchZFUuT2bIRNl5I1LRT_SMDwL7icSkaGAL8ErbK50lNQ=s0-d-e1-ft#https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.179%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_0%2 C$y_12/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_620%2Cq_88%2Cf_auto/e4dfedf22dd54d7154df578bef124e261523dc11Alan Joyce with his husband Shane Lloyd arriving at Sydney Airport on Monday evening. Justin Thyme

Mr Joyce also faced disquiet about his influence in Canberra, including revelations in The Australian Financial Review’s Rear Window column that Prime Minister Anthony Albanese had procured membership of the exclusive Qantas Chairman’s Lounge for his adult son Nathan (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/alan-joyce-puts-albo-s-son-in-qantas-chairman-s-lounge-20230802-p5dtf3) and not declared it on his parliamentary register of interests.

Since his departure, Ms Hudson has made a number of changes to Qantas’ executive ranks. Her rival for the top job, Qantas Loyalty chief executive Olivia Wirth, is leaving and has been appointed to the board of Myer. The airline has also called in McKinsey for a major overhaul of its operations focusing on improving its on-time performance, an engagement first revealed by the Financial Review last month (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-calls-in-mckinsey-for-operational-overhaul-to-fix-late-flights-20240128-p5f0if).

Mr Joyce, meanwhile, resigned from his position as the chairman of the Sydney Theatre Company last month, having been on extended leave (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/alan-joyce-quits-sydney-theatre-company-20240124-p5ezs5). He had been due to return to the position in February, but left after controversy over an on-stage pro-Palestinian protest, saying that the company faced challenges that he did not have the time to address.

The Sydney Morning Herald reported this week that Mr Joyce has also been on extended leave from the Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney since January last year. He was appointed to the board in 2019, but it is not clear whether he will return to the role

[Lead Balloon]

I won't be betting folding on him being compelled to front any Senate inquiry, but would be happy to be proved wrong.

[dejapoo]

Alan Joyce lands in Sydney after extended absence from Australiahttps://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/_TvhdjrOsxo6twssDokfzke_MYUt0xm6kIsA9tLKGoYBEgTUMUfPTxEU9aZl NXrrmTbE9GLUqbBjJxKWjAxS12J7Di5GUatP_-R8uApEPLlOmjQR29a1yyaOdny1eApuPIvNWPcvcr52nWfGCB3E8u2bHt6nwa 33Ek4sTq3w9IOOVcvrKrPw5jqf_Cc-uemVKXWH7AJGQFk8kZcS=s0-d-e1-ft#https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_140%2C$height_140/t_crop_fill%2Cq_auto:best%2Cfl_any_format/2bbea568b1bc0f85b0926cca57fe614159fe3031
Ayesha de Kretser (https://www.afr.com/by/ayesha-de-kretser-p535y1)Senior reporter
Feb 7, 2024 – 5.00am
Save
Share

Listen to this article
2 minFormer Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has returned to Australia five months after leaving the country following his abrupt exit from the national carrier.

Mr Joyce arrived at Sydney Airport on Monday evening, having spent most of his time overseas with his family in Dublin, where he was born. His return comes as his successor at Qantas, Vanessa Hudson, prepares to hand down her first set of results.

Mr Joyce left the airline in early September, months earlier than scheduled, after a backlash from shareholders and political acrimony over the airline’s poor service and allegations it was selling flights it had already decided to cancel to help it preserve lucrative landing rights at Sydney Airport.
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/LKwmvHPFn8WU0rq5IOkNwdZwx-20Dai4WK-hF0gp_aqa0DbYB6C7ay3JCrTw7Ex8zDVNqXYDeGMw9l71dEb2pDGMXOBGGdo kZPPTQ-TqPgWUoZ9URRKqFinjBWvnX6rSRx6XwZtmj_qAqGF2XyWO0BlwGviXWuXwH4 i9KXM_lZWjCJcBQDaHVn2wETjG8Uqok0hxP7i8VGcoBMKz4arEhDA3f6nsog fNXtchZFUuT2bIRNl5I1LRT_SMDwL7icSkaGAL8ErbK50lNQ=s0-d-e1-ft#https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.179%2C$multiply_4%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_0%2 C$y_12/t_crop_custom/c_scale%2Cw_620%2Cq_88%2Cf_auto/e4dfedf22dd54d7154df578bef124e261523dc11Alan Joyce with his husband Shane Lloyd arriving at Sydney Airport on Monday evening. Justin Thyme

Mr Joyce also faced disquiet about his influence in Canberra, including revelations in The Australian Financial Review’s Rear Window column that Prime Minister Anthony Albanese had procured membership of the exclusive Qantas Chairman’s Lounge for his adult son Nathan (https://www.afr.com/rear-window/alan-joyce-puts-albo-s-son-in-qantas-chairman-s-lounge-20230802-p5dtf3) and not declared it on his parliamentary register of interests.

Since his departure, Ms Hudson has made a number of changes to Qantas’ executive ranks. Her rival for the top job, Qantas Loyalty chief executive Olivia Wirth, is leaving and has been appointed to the board of Myer. The airline has also called in McKinsey for a major overhaul of its operations focusing on improving its on-time performance, an engagement first revealed by the Financial Review last month (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-calls-in-mckinsey-for-operational-overhaul-to-fix-late-flights-20240128-p5f0if).

Mr Joyce, meanwhile, resigned from his position as the chairman of the Sydney Theatre Company last month, having been on extended leave (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/alan-joyce-quits-sydney-theatre-company-20240124-p5ezs5). He had been due to return to the position in February, but left after controversy over an on-stage pro-Palestinian protest, saying that the company faced challenges that he did not have the time to address.

The Sydney Morning Herald reported this week that Mr Joyce has also been on extended leave from the Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney since January last year. He was appointed to the board in 2019, but it is not clear whether he will return to the role

Looks dishevelled... he get bumped to premium?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

saying that the company faced challenges that he did not have the time to address.
So while he was employed as QF CEO he had the time to be on the board of the STC, but now he is "retired" he does not? Maybe he's got too much ironing to do?

[Chronic Snoozer]

Is that the same response he gave to the senate inquiry?

Not sure why people expect Alan to do any work for the Boards he sits on, evidently Board positions are for peacocks.

[framer]

I see that Justice A Hatcher is the boss of the Fair Work Commission.
Question;
When a whole tonne of politicians and Judges had to fess up to accepting special treatment from Qantas in the Chairman’s Lounge last year, was he one of them? Is there a way of finding out if he is receiving free Lobster from the company that his organisation will be making a declaration on shortly?

[Stationair8]

Shane, I said use the Qantas frequent flyer points to go to Austria not f#cking Australia.

Next time we travel let the one in the household with airline experience, do the smart stuff with our travel arrangements! I will avoid Qantas at any cost, clapped out old airframes, bad management, delays, lost baggage and not to mention the groupies that frequent the chairman’s club.

Even that new airline, Banga have got newer planes than the QF.

Australia a third world country, we should have stayed in Ireland.

[Lead Balloon]

Try as I might, I can't hear the strident voices of certain Senators calling for Mr Joyce AC to front the Senate Committee. Am I going deaf?

[Pinky the pilot]

With reference to the previous post by Lead Balloon;

Just quite possibly I have missed something (not unusual for me...) but I seem to remember quite some time back, reading that AJ had been ordered to return to Australia to appear before some Senate enquiry, and that there were dire consequences in store if he failed to do so!

All that seems to have gone extremely quite. I wonder why?https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

I posted the above (Post #858) back on the 26th of January.

SOPS replied I remember the same, Pinky.


There is enough cynicism in me to believe that Joyce will not be called before any enquiry and the Pollies of all parties will desperately hope that the whole thing fades into obscurity. Why??

Because there will be quite enough fault/dirt to be spread over everyone!!:=

[Chronic Snoozer]

There is enough cynicism in me to believe that Joyce will not be called before any enquiry and the Pollies of all parties will desperately hope that the whole thing fades into obscurity. Why??
Because they'd lose their Chairman's Lounge invitations.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

If there was ever a time for our representative bodies to be overtly pressuring government to drag Alan to the senate, it would be now while hatred for him is high amongst the travelling public. Alas, I don’t hear them doing it either.

[MickG0105]

Try as I might, I can't hear the strident voices of certain Senators calling for Mr Joyce AC to front the Senate Committee. Am I going deaf?
The most significant impediment to having Joyce front the Senate Committee is that the relevant committee, the Select Committee on Commonwealth Bilateral Air Service Agreements, was wound up at the end of the term specified in their Terms of Reference back in early October last year. There is presently no committee or sub-committee of the Senate with relevant terms of reference to call on him to appear.

[Lead Balloon]

The Senate could, of course, resolve to establish another Select Committee with new Terms of Reference.

[MickG0105]

The Senate could, of course, resolve to establish another Select Committee with new Terms of Reference.
They could. How do you think that would go? The Senate wouldn't agree to extend the term of the Bilateral Air Service Agreements Select Committee when the Chair requested it last year.

[Pinky the pilot]

Because they'd lose their Chairman's Lounge invitations.

Oh of course!! I forgot about that. Thanks Chronic Snoozer.:ok:

[Lead Balloon]

They could. How do you think that would go? The Senate wouldn't agree to extend the term of the Bilateral Air Service Agreements Select Committee when the Chair requested it last year.
As always, it depends on the principle politics.

[Lead Balloon]

Senator McKenzie is bailing up the Minister representing, on the issue of Mr Joyce AC, in Estimates now.

[dragon man]

Supply chain issues means we don’t have any maintenance available of our own because we haven’t trained any apprentices and we let to many engineers go during Covid but we will dress that up and call it supply chain issues. I think incompetence is better.

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Qantas backflips on Aussie couple after flight schedule bungled tripPaul and Ann Hansen turned to The Daily Telegraph after Qantas ruined their dream US holiday by cancelling their flights from Sydney after they had spent thousands on hotels and travel in America. Here’s what happened.
@publicdefender (https://archive.md/o/s900S/https://twitter.com/publicdefender)
2 min read
February 19, 2024 - 5:00AM

Passengers who have their flights delayed or cancelled could soon be compensated. The Coalition wants to fast-track a bill through the Senate which could compel airlines to refund passengers for delays and set out their obligations to customers more clearly. The bill would require majority support in the Senate and the House of Representatives. More passengers have had longer wait times for replacement flights since before the pandemic. Qantas has hired a second consultancy firm to improve its issues with delays and cancellations in a bid to repair its reputation as the national carrier.


As it prepares to defend court action brought by the consumer cops over cancelled flights, Qantas has belatedly untangled a mess it made of a couple’s “once in a lifetime” trip when it moved them to dates that suited the airline better.
In September last year, Paul and Ann Hansen used Frequent Flyer points saved over many years to book return business class flights from Sydney directly to San Francisco, departing in July.
They then bought internal US flights, cruises, accommodation and tours to fit.
But two weeks ago, they received the email that has come to frustrate so many Australian travellers – the one from Qantas Customer Service advising of “important changes” to a booking.
Qantas had moved the dates of departure and return.https://archive.md/s900S/9ccc51619a19295e09d2d7dc2348c5b5a55796be.jpgPaul and Ann Hansen had their plans for a ‘once in a lifetime trip’ thrown into chaos after a flight cancellation from Qantas. Picture: NCA NewsWire / Martin Ollman“We rang Qantas to say this won’t work as we have other travel booked,” Mr Hansen said.
Qantas said there were no longer any Frequent Flyer seats available on the original dates. Their options were to agree to the changes or cancel.
In seeking The Daily Telegraph’s help, an exasperated Mr Hansen said: “What is the point of booking 10 months in advance to secure your very limited Frequent Flyer seat if Qantas won’t honour the booking? It is essentially worthless.”
Mrs Hansen said Qantas’ decision to change the dates was “going to cost us money.” She noted that if she and her husband had tried to change the dates, Qantas would have made them pay extra.
Qantas is under intense scrutiny over why it cancels flights, including from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
In August last year the ACCC launched Federal Court action against the Flying Kangaroo, with chair Gina Cass-Gottlieb saying: “We allege that Qantas made many … cancellations for reasons that were within its control, such as network optimisation including in response to shifts in consumer demand, route withdrawals or retention of takeoff and landing slots at certain airports.”https://archive.md/s900S/53b7f105ffb75364b711792d01bc9a56e3dc8241.jpgGina Cass-Gottlieb, the chair of the ACCC. Picture: Aaron Francis / The AustralianIn response to questions from The Telegraph, a Qantas spokesman said the Hansens’ flights were cancelled because of “supply chain delays impacting scheduled maintenance of some aircraft.
“We understand the inconvenience that schedule changes can cause and we have been in contact with the Hansens to re-accommodate them on an earlier flight.”
The Hansens’ trip will now be two days longer. Qantas has provided an “accommodation allowance”.
“This means we can meet our existing tour and internal flights, and aren’t out of pocket for the additional accommodation,” Mr Hansen said. “It’s just ridiculous that Qantas couldn’t come to this conclusion on their own.”https://archive.md/s900S/7ae1942fe8fe9a066cec2cb9fd385ac5fe88b874.jpgThe Hansens’ trip is back on track, but it’ll be two days’ longer than they planned. Picture: NCA NewsWire / Martin OllmanThe Hansens’ trip will now be two days longer. Qantas has provided an “accommodation allowance”.
“This means we can meet our existing tour and internal flights, and aren’t out of pocket for the additional accommodation,” Mr Hansen said. “It’s just ridiculous that Qantas couldn’t come to this conclusion on their own.”
The ACCC’s misleading and deceptive conduct proceedings against Qantas are due to return to court on February 28 for a case management hearing.
The commission has chosen to focus its attack on allegations that the airline kept on selling seats on cancelled flights.
In its defence document, Qantas claims the parts of consumer law the ACCC accuses it of breaking do not apply because the airline did not supply customers with carriage on a “particular flight”, but rather “a bundle of contractual rights”.
Qantas said the bundle was consistent with its “promise to do its best to get consumers where they want to be on time” but “expressly excluded any guarantee of flight times”.

[1A_Please]

Supply chain issues means we don’t have any maintenance available of our own because we haven’t trained any apprentices and we let to many engineers go during Covid but we will dress that up and call it supply chain issues. I think incompetence is better.

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Qantas backflips on Aussie couple after flight schedule bungled tripPaul and Ann Hansen turned to The Daily Telegraph after Qantas ruined their dream US holiday by cancelling their flights from Sydney after they had spent thousands on hotels and travel in America. Here’s what happened.
@publicdefender (https://archive.md/o/s900S/https://twitter.com/publicdefender)
2 min read
February 19, 2024 - 5:00AM

Passengers who have their flights delayed or cancelled could soon be compensated. The Coalition wants to fast-track a bill through the Senate which could compel airlines to refund passengers for delays and set out their obligations to customers more clearly. The bill would require majority support in the Senate and the House of Representatives. More passengers have had longer wait times for replacement flights since before the pandemic. Qantas has hired a second consultancy firm to improve its issues with delays and cancellations in a bid to repair its reputation as the national carrier.


As it prepares to defend court action brought by the consumer cops over cancelled flights, Qantas has belatedly untangled a mess it made of a couple’s “once in a lifetime” trip when it moved them to dates that suited the airline better.
In September last year, Paul and Ann Hansen used Frequent Flyer points saved over many years to book return business class flights from Sydney directly to San Francisco, departing in July.
They then bought internal US flights, cruises, accommodation and tours to fit.
But two weeks ago, they received the email that has come to frustrate so many Australian travellers – the one from Qantas Customer Service advising of “important changes” to a booking.
Qantas had moved the dates of departure and return.https://archive.md/s900S/9ccc51619a19295e09d2d7dc2348c5b5a55796be.jpgPaul and Ann Hansen had their plans for a ‘once in a lifetime trip’ thrown into chaos after a flight cancellation from Qantas. Picture: NCA NewsWire / Martin Ollman“We rang Qantas to say this won’t work as we have other travel booked,” Mr Hansen said.
Qantas said there were no longer any Frequent Flyer seats available on the original dates. Their options were to agree to the changes or cancel.
In seeking The Daily Telegraph’s help, an exasperated Mr Hansen said: “What is the point of booking 10 months in advance to secure your very limited Frequent Flyer seat if Qantas won’t honour the booking? It is essentially worthless.”
Mrs Hansen said Qantas’ decision to change the dates was “going to cost us money.” She noted that if she and her husband had tried to change the dates, Qantas would have made them pay extra.
Qantas is under intense scrutiny over why it cancels flights, including from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
In August last year the ACCC launched Federal Court action against the Flying Kangaroo, with chair Gina Cass-Gottlieb saying: “We allege that Qantas made many … cancellations for reasons that were within its control, such as network optimisation including in response to shifts in consumer demand, route withdrawals or retention of takeoff and landing slots at certain airports.”https://archive.md/s900S/53b7f105ffb75364b711792d01bc9a56e3dc8241.jpgGina Cass-Gottlieb, the chair of the ACCC. Picture: Aaron Francis / The AustralianIn response to questions from The Telegraph, a Qantas spokesman said the Hansens’ flights were cancelled because of “supply chain delays impacting scheduled maintenance of some aircraft.
“We understand the inconvenience that schedule changes can cause and we have been in contact with the Hansens to re-accommodate them on an earlier flight.”
The Hansens’ trip will now be two days longer. Qantas has provided an “accommodation allowance”.
“This means we can meet our existing tour and internal flights, and aren’t out of pocket for the additional accommodation,” Mr Hansen said. “It’s just ridiculous that Qantas couldn’t come to this conclusion on their own.”https://archive.md/s900S/7ae1942fe8fe9a066cec2cb9fd385ac5fe88b874.jpgThe Hansens’ trip is back on track, but it’ll be two days’ longer than they planned. Picture: NCA NewsWire / Martin OllmanThe Hansens’ trip will now be two days longer. Qantas has provided an “accommodation allowance”.
“This means we can meet our existing tour and internal flights, and aren’t out of pocket for the additional accommodation,” Mr Hansen said. “It’s just ridiculous that Qantas couldn’t come to this conclusion on their own.”
The ACCC’s misleading and deceptive conduct proceedings against Qantas are due to return to court on February 28 for a case management hearing.
The commission has chosen to focus its attack on allegations that the airline kept on selling seats on cancelled flights.
In its defence document, Qantas claims the parts of consumer law the ACCC accuses it of breaking do not apply because the airline did not supply customers with carriage on a “particular flight”, but rather “a bundle of contractual rights”.
Qantas said the bundle was consistent with its “promise to do its best to get consumers where they want to be on time” but “expressly excluded any guarantee of flight times”.
When things go well Qantas executives take the credit and the bonuses; when things go wrong, it is always someone else's fault. No wonder they have gone from one of the most admired Australian companies to one of the most despised.

[dragon man]

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Former Qantas CEO Alan Joyce to renovate his Sydney apartment in The RocksFormer Qantas boss Alan Joyce has put the problems of his turbulent departure from the national carrier behind him and is embarking on spectacular renovations to his luxury harbour view pad in The Rocks.
Jonathan Chancellor (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/jonathan-chancellor) and Matthew Benns (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/journalists/matthew-benns)2 min read
March 14, 2024 - 3:14PM
https://archive.md/hICiG/e34f2d5153a554cbc3ef6d6465ce38ec61c7c599.webp
Former Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has resigned as the Sydney Theatre Company chair. He was due to return to his role at the end of February following four months of leave but said the current challenges facing the company required significant time in the role.


Former Qantas boss Alan Joyce has put the problems of his turbulent departure from the national carrier behind him and is embarking on some home renovations.
Mr Joyce, 57, and husband Shane Lloyd have lodged plans to amalgamate their two apartments below the top-floor penthouse in the iconic Harry Seidler building in The Rocks.
The plans will allow for sweeping views of the Opera House and harbour from an enormous 100 sqm of balcony space that will be funded from the $125 million he earned during his 15 years leading the national carrier. His final year alone saw him trouser $21.4 million.
Over his 15-year-term piloting Qantas, Mr Joyce also secured a whopping $28 million in bonuses.
The former chief executive officer of the flying kangaroo abruptly quit last year (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/alan-joyce-pictured-back-in-sydney-following-tumultuous-qantas-fallout/news-story/74f8e4b9766fd54359cb5c0b7cf9bd9b) as the airline was hit with allegations it had sold tickets to more than 8000 flights it had already cancelled and refused to drop airfares or hand back jobkeeper subsidies despite a record $2.47 billion profit.https://archive.md/hICiG/2cc773ffd7195294f7d81ea7d81b821e7bd9ea95.jpgAlan Joyce and Shane Lloyd. Picture: Dylan Robinsonhttps://archive.md/hICiG/7507c2d889838ca1786cdc56beddcc1fc446d6d0.jpgThe iconic Harry Seidler building in The Rocks.Mr Joyce fled to Ireland to take care of his sick mother and only returned to Sydney last month (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/alan-joyce-pictured-back-in-sydney-following-tumultuous-qantas-fallout/news-story/74f8e4b9766fd54359cb5c0b7cf9bd9b) after a Senate Inquiry into the blocking of flights from Qatar Airways he had been ordered to front upon his return fizzled out.
In January Mr Joyce also resigned as chair of the Sydney Theatre Company (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/former-qantas-boss-alan-joyce-resigns-as-chair-of-sydney-theatre-company-months-after-palestine-scarf-row/news-story/e6373162342ee60c6a6ad103caebdd55) but since returning to the Harbour City he has continued his love of the arts with a trip to the opening night of & Juliet at the Lyric Theatre at The Star last week.
Now he and Mr Lloyd have submitted plans with the City of Sydney Council for works costing $2.97m to put together the two apartments in The Cove building on Harrington Street and make retirement a little more bearable.
They have called the 2003-built complex their home since 2008 when they paid $4,575,000 for half of the 42nd floor of the 43-floor building. The apartment addition cost them $9.25m last April. https://archive.md/hICiG/45e55c0876b0984b77752f35b729ce62fd00d84d.webpThe view from Mr Joyce’s apartment in The Rocks.https://archive.md/hICiG/64f15ec46a97100c47b1134a444b7b44f6a367c4.webpMr Joyce’s current apartment in The Rocks.For a time the couple were proposing to upsize to a $19m, 1908 Arts and Craft style mansion they bought in Mosman in 2022. However, they jumped at the opportunity when the neighbouring apartment was listed.
“We were unexpectedly given the opportunity to secure the other half-level apartment where we live currently,” Mr Joyce said at the time.https://archive.md/hICiG/410a18230ad36486507e108a580162e2e590aa22.webpMr Joyce purchased the adjoining apartment last year.https://archive.md/hICiG/4ba8212de77fe464d2a4d618b1dfc60981c78aa5.webpPictures: suppliedThey then promptly sold the Mosman home for $21m without ever living in it, last July.
The Cox Architecture plans are to knock through the two three-bedroom apartments to create a 450 sqm, five-bedroom apartment with 100 sqm balcony space. https://archive.md/hICiG/7eaa8905fd73c7f45548813b13c365c9d2bab89f.webpAlan Joyce takes his dog for a walk in Sydney. Picture: 2GBThe five bedrooms are being pushed to the southern side of the apartment. The master bedroom will have a walk-in wardrobe, ensuite, and one of the four balconies.
The open plan living, dining and kitchen will be located on the northern side of the apartment which has better views of the Opera House.
https://archive.md/hICiG/6879b6b25896d07c5b023089af26087ebb32f07c.jpg (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VaLAg67JUM2imBkdlP3i)
Central to the space will be a kitchen, flanked by a formal lounge to the west and a media lounge to the east.
The couple also have a Palm Beach weekender with five bedrooms and five bathrooms that overlooks Whale Beach and cost $5.25 million in 2015.

[Slippery_Pete]

Imagine getting illegally sacked with 1700 of your hard working colleagues, then having to struggle to even put food on the table for your wife and kids - all the meanwhile, knowing your family’s forced spiral into financial despair has funded him joining a few $10m penthouse apartments together.

It’s abhorrent and morally repugnant.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Even his dog can’t bear to look at him.

[artee]

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Former Qantas CEO Alan Joyce to renovate his Sydney apartment in The RocksFormer Qantas boss Alan Joyce has put the problems of his turbulent departure from the national carrier behind him and is embarking on spectacular renovations to his luxury harbour view pad in The Rocks.
Jonathan Chancellor (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/jonathan-chancellor) and Matthew Benns (https://archive.md/o/hICiG/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/journalists/matthew-benns)2 min read
March 14, 2024 - 3:14PM

https://archive.md/hICiG/4ba8212de77fe464d2a4d618b1dfc60981c78aa5.webpPictures: suppliedThey then promptly sold the Mosman home for $21m without ever living in it, last July.

Looks like it's been styled in "Classic Travelodge"

[framer]

They then promptly sold the Mosman home for $21m without ever living in it, last July.

You know you’re financially secure when even a real-estate misstep nets you 2 mil in 2 years!

[Big Silver Spoon]

Looks like it's been styled in "Classic Travelodge"

looks like the decor has been lifted straight out of the Qantas club.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Looks like classic "Chairman's Lounge".
The same powerbrokers will be regular visitors I'm sure.

[dragon man]

The gift that keeps on giving, $500 million I hope in compensation and fines.


data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Qantas faces multimillion-dollar bill over illegally firing 1700 workersQantas is facing a multimillion-dollar bill after it was found guilty of illegally firing 1700 workers during the Covid pandemic.
https://archive.md/YMDEg/116cba681cd7c0f34710277dfc4b8134e9a21a56.png (https://archive.md/o/YMDEg/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/journalists/adelaide-lang)Adelaide Lang (https://archive.md/o/YMDEg/https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/journalists/adelaide-lang)less than 2 min read
March 18, 2024 - 12:11PMNCA NewsWire
https://archive.md/YMDEg/09b888b41a548553e883f585618ba42283eb0ec3.webp Play
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‘You did nothing wrong’: Tony Burke supports workers who were illegally sacked by Qantas


Embattled airline Qantas is facing a multimillion-dollar compensation bill after it was found guilty of illegally firing 1700 workers during the Covid pandemic.
The Federal Court ruled in 2021 that the airline had acted unlawfully when it sacked the ground services employees of 11 airports in 2020 and outsourced their roles to contractors.
The matter returned to court on Monday to determine compensation after the High Court rejected Qantas’ attempt to appeal the verdict.
Outside court, Transport Workers Union lawyer Josh Bornstein estimated the payments for sacked workers would be “very, very substantial, running into the many millions of dollars”.
He said the hearing, which will run over the next week, would determine the cost for breaching workplace laws “in such a spectacular way”.
The enormity of the possible compensation payout reflects Qantas being guilty of the largest illegal sacking in Australia’s corporate history. https://archive.md/YMDEg/306da9c6dea48945fd4bd69af14ce287066a6c79.jpgQantas has been found guilty of illegally sacking 1700 workers. Picture: NCA NewsWire / David SwiftParliamentary secretary for industrial relations Mark Buttigieg said the ruling against the airline was a “damning indictment against a once great company”.
He noted Qantas accepted $800m of taxpayer funds to keep people employed before they unlawfully sacked 1700 staff.
“I hope Qantas learns from this lesson, this litany of failures, and treating employees so shabbily and comes to the party to do the right thing,” the Labor MP said.
Former employee Don Dixon told reporters that he hoped it would finally be the end of a three-year legal battle with the airline.
“Probably the most fundamental thing for all the workers I represent is we did absolutely nothing wrong,” he said.
In a statement, Qantas repeated its apology to the 1700 affected workers and reaffirmed its commitment to reaching an agreement.
“Qantas sincerely apologises and deeply regrets the personal impact the outsourcing decision had on these former employees,” a spokesperson said.
“We want them to receive fair compensation as quickly as possible.”
TWU national secretary Michael Kaine said the 1700 workers have “been through hell” after being unlawfully sacked three years ago.
“It’s time for Qantas to pay up,” he said.
Justice Michael Lee will hear three test cases in order to determine the amount of compensation to be paid to the illegally sacked workers.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

A TWU survey of the sacked workers showed half had not found meaningful employment in the two-and-a-half years since the sackings. One-third suffered mental distress and one in 10 had had suicidal thoughts

I hope the Judge awards hefty compensation to these workers. Any employer who pushes their staff to these dark places must be penalised so severely that they are too scared to do it again.

[dragon man]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7456_2363aa995ac27618dad04e6b98f6e4e793ed2635.png
I don’t want to get into an argument about people getting the benefits of a union’s case without been members however my reading of this is that after illegally sacking 1700 workers and trying every court in the land to over turn it they are now trying to weasel out of paying all those involved.

[Colonel_Klink]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7456_2363aa995ac27618dad04e6b98f6e4e793ed2635.png
I don’t want to get into an argument about people getting the benefits of a union’s case without been members however my reading of this is that after illegally sacking 1700 workers and trying every court in the land to over turn it they are now trying to weasel out of paying all those involved.

I think this is in reference to the claim made by the TWU that it (the union) is seeking direct compensation from Qantas for membership fees that it did not receive from those workers who were illegally sacked and who otherwise would have remained union members.

I think the QF argument was why should they be made to pay for membership fees from members who were possibly un-financial at the time, as well as a number of other different scenarios.

Justice Lee seemed thoroughly unimpressed by the performance of the TWU lawyers. Scathing even…..

[MickG0105]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7456_2363aa995ac27618dad04e6b98f6e4e793ed2635.png
I don’t want to get into an argument about people getting the benefits of a union’s case without been members however my reading of this is that after illegally sacking 1700 workers and trying every court in the land to over turn it they are now trying to weasel out of paying all those involved.

Is that from the Judge’s tongue-lashing of TWU as compensation hearings for Qantas outsourcing kicks off article in today's The Australian?

Why don't you post the whole article like you normally do? It is very clear what was being discussed, and it is most assuredly not how you've portrayed it.

[dragon man]

Is that from the Judge’s tongue-lashing of TWU as compensation hearings for Qantas outsourcing kicks off article in today's The Australian?

Why don't you post the whole article like you normally do? It is very clear what was being discussed, and it is most assuredly not how you've portrayed it.


Why don’t you post the whole article if you think that’s the case. The reason I didn’t is because I could only get a photo as I couldn’t down load the whole article to cut and paste. The TWU probably deserved the tongue lashing they got but that is of no interest to me.

[dejapoo]

The gift that keeps on giving, $500 million I hope in compensation

cmon dragon, pls think of our future staff travel credit.

[Clinton McKenzie]

The ongoing Federal Court hearing in TWU v Qantas is broadcast, live, on the Federal Court's youtube channel. The hearing is listed to resume at 10:15am local Sydney time.

[ampclamp]

“Qantas sincerely apologises and deeply regrets the personal impact the outsourcing decision had on these former employees,” a spokesperson said.
“We want them to receive fair compensation as quickly as possible.”

Yeah sure, that's why they dragged it through all possible legal channels to now say sorry and hope it all happens quickly.

It should come out of the pockets of those who made that disgraceful decision. They would have known of its dubious legality, but did it anyway and reaped their rewards. Now shareholders will pay.

[Talkwrench]

“Qantas sincerely apologises and deeply regrets the personal impact the outsourcing decision had on these former employees,” a spokesperson said.
“We want them to receive fair compensation as quickly as possible.”

Yeah sure, that's why they dragged it through all possible legal channels to now say sorry and hope it all happens quickly.

It should come out of the pockets of those who made that disgraceful decision. They would have known of its dubious legality, but did it anyway and reaped their rewards. Now shareholders will pay.



I struggle to believe that Qantas even comprehends the following words:

Sincerely/sincere/sincerity
apologies/apologise
regrets/regret
Fair/fairness

It must awesome to have a faceless entity and a sea of shareholders that one can hide behind that will apologise, take the blame for and pay for the horrible actions and decisions that one makes.

[ampclamp]

None of words are in their vocabulary. Anathema to their corporate vision.

Qantas have bent over backwards for many years to drag down wages and conditions sometimes with the backing of various governments and industrial legislation. And now we get stories like this https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-19/aviation-industry-skills-shortage-covid-19-pandemic-workers-jobs/103573228.

Well hello, its been no mystery that the average age of aviation workers has been high and going up for years. No wonder those sacked or that took a redundancy wont go back. Ask those that stuck around. It's not pretty.

[artee]

I struggle to believe that Qantas even comprehends the following words:

Sincerely/sincere/sincerity
apologies/apologise
regrets/regret
Fair/fairness

It must awesome to have a faceless entity and a sea of shareholders that one can hide behind that will apologise, take the blame for and pay for the horrible actions and decisions that one makes.
There should be truth in advertising laws, stopping companies from saying things that are manifestly not true.
Another e.g. - Woolworths "we actively want you to spend less when you shop with us" - yeah, right.

[dragon man]

Know no shame and defending the indefensible.


data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Qantas moves to keep compo bill for outsourced workforce to a minimumQantas told the Federal Court that if it had not outsourced its ground handling operations in 2020, it would have done so the following year.
https://archive.md/Sdbgp/58258d505773de9c064f0439546f2f699ea2f4b5.png (https://archive.md/o/Sdbgp/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)Robyn Ironside (https://archive.md/o/Sdbgp/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)Aviation Writer
@ironsider (https://archive.md/o/Sdbgp/https://twitter.com/ironsider)
2 min read
March 19, 2024 - 6:42PMThe Australian Business Networkhttps://archive.md/Sdbgp/a7f61742990e9d83fb4d37db106bc9d022cb4192.jpgQantas baggage handling operations were among those outsourced in late 2020 in a decision the Federal Court found was unlawful. Picture: Dan Peled/NCA NewsWire


Qantas has told the Federal Court that if it had not taken the decision to outsource the jobs of 1683 ground handling workers in late 2020, it would have done it 12 months later as the Covid pandemic continued to ravage the airline’s bottom line.
In hearings to determine what compensation should be paid (https://archive.md/o/Sdbgp/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/judges-tonguelashing-of-twu-as-compensation-hearings-for-qantas-outsourcing-kicks-off/news-story/90093d1efca8a361ca33ba402dd6ad12) to the former workers after the court found Qantas acted unlawfully, the airline is arguing it has limited liability to the ex-employees.
The Transport Workers Union was seeking vastly more compensation (https://archive.md/o/Sdbgp/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/high-court-finds-qantas-outsourcing-was-unlawful/news-story/36c6d2b1a732c6e809d716a5162a5994), claiming their members had considered their positions at Qantas “jobs for life”.
In order to help Justice Michael Lee decide upon an appropriate amount, both parties were presenting “counterfactual” scenarios, outlining what would have happened had the unlawful outsourcing decision not been made in 2020.
Justice Lee’s original judgment (https://archive.md/o/Sdbgp/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-in-court-loss-to-transport-workers-union-over-outsourcing/news-story/bbd708d6ad4f48503dc2e8c8f7311bd2%23:~:text=By%20robyn%20iron side&text=Judge%20Michael%20Lee%20delivered%20his,factor%20in%20t he%20outsourcing%20decision.) found Qantas could not prove it was not motivated by the desire to avoid industrial action by its ground crews who were due to negotiate a new enterprise agreement in 2021.
TWU assistant national secretary Nick McIntosh argued it was unlikely the ground handling workers would have staged industrial action in 2021, as a new pay deal was negotiated.
He said the TWU had spent $1m on an in-house bid to keep the ground handling work at Qantas, to show how important those jobs were to members.
“The last thing we want to do is run to industrial action,” Mr McIntosh said, pointing out that the last time ground crews went on strike at Qantas was in 2011.https://archive.md/Sdbgp/95f79142cec1cadac521fbe9f0850d0e991ad4b7.jpgFederal Court Justice Michael Lee at a conference in Melbourne. Picture: Aaron FrancisQantas chief operating officer Colin Hughes said in the event new enterprise agreements had been negotiated with the TWU, he still would have recommended to his manager that ground handling operations be outsourced.
“I would’ve been making the case that the arguments we had for outsourcing in 2020 remained, because the financial targets that were set for the business wouldn’t have been met,” Mr Hughes said.
“Obviously the circumstances of the pandemic continued in 2021 and the commercial imperatives that existed in 2020, existed in 2021. That would’ve been the logic and the reason I brought to that conversation.”
It was also suggested much of the ground handling workforce would have remained stood down without pay during 2021.
Barrister Richard Dalton for Qantas pointed out the “sole decision maker” in the matter would still have been Andrew David, the then Qantas Domestic and International chief executive.
“On Mr David’s evidence (at a previous hearing) this outsourcing option would’ve been back under consideration (in mid-2021),” Mr Dalton said.
“Qantas was looking at drastic measures to stem losses including the sale of their Mascot premises and other cost reduction measures. This option would’ve been back on the table for consideration at that time.”
Justice Lee suggested it would have been helpful to hear “what (former CEO) Alan Joyce thought, and what the board thought” about the outsourcing decision.
Mr David, who retired from Qantas last year, was expected to give evidence at the hearing on Wednesday.
A Qantas spokesman said they wanted former ground handling employees to receive fair compensation as quickly as possible.
Court-ordered mediation between the TWU and Qantas led by CEO Vanessa Hudson, was unable to reach an agreement.

[Clinton McKenzie]

Hearing listed to recommence at 0930 (Sydney local time) this morning. Will be broadcast on youtube.

[framer]

“I would’ve been making the case that the arguments we had for outsourcing in 2020 remained, because the financial targets that were set for the business wouldn’t have been met,”
Tied up in that statement by the Chief Operating Officer is the crux of the problem with business decision making at executive levels, over the last 30 years.
The statement itself is probably a fine statement, true and accurate. The problem is the weight that it carries with the person who makes the final decision, in this case Andrew David. If you go back 40 years the decision maker would take that statement as just one of many competing variables that are weighed to make the best long-term decision for the company. Now days, the near term financial targets carry the greatest weight and sensible forward looking ( beyond next year) decisions are less likely.
I wonder if it’s because we have finance people running the Aviation industry? There is certainly a place for them, I just don’t think it’s at the top.

[Callsign Please]

I haven’t followed all of the hearing but just now, it was so nice to hear someone put it to a ‘decision maker’ that the excuse of a massive GSE expenditure requirement, just doesn’t hold up when they then turned around and sold everything that “needed replacing” to their fancy new provider, and that Mr Oldmeadow picked up on this excuse as a legal issue straight away.
The mind boggles afresh every day.

[SOPS]

Tied up in that statement by the Chief Operating Officer is the crux of the problem with business decision making at executive levels, over the last 30 years.
The statement itself is probably a fine statement, true and accurate. The problem is the weight that it carries with the person who makes the final decision, in this case Andrew David. If you go back 40 years the decision maker would take that statement as just one of many competing variables that are weighed to make the best long-term decision for the company. Now days, the near term financial targets carry the greatest weight and sensible forward looking ( beyond next year) decisions are less likely.
I wonder if it’s because we have finance people running the Aviation industry? There is certainly a place for them, I just don’t think it’s at the top..

They only plan as far ahead as their next bonus. And that is the root of all the problems.

[MikeHatter732]

I haven’t followed all of the hearing but just now, it was so nice to hear someone put it to a ‘decision maker’ that the excuse of a massive GSE expenditure requirement, just doesn’t hold up when they then turned around and sold everything that “needed replacing” to their fancy new provider, and that Mr Oldmeadow picked up on this excuse as a legal issue straight away.
The mind boggles afresh every day.
It really is a joy seeing execs cross-examined, even if they won't be personally punished.... Seeing them try and squirm out of each question is hilarious.

[framer]

Can someone post the YouTube link or the description? I looked but couldn’t find it. Cheers

[Clinton McKenzie]

Search "youtube" and "Federal Court of Australia".

There a currently two hearings being broadcast: TWU v Qantas and Al Muderis v Nine.

[blubak]

It really is a joy seeing execs cross-examined, even if they won't be personally punished.... Seeing them try and squirm out of each question is hilarious.
Its also hilarious that the so called COO Colin Hughes is claiming the workforce would have remained stood down during 2021( that part is true) & then goes on to say they wouldnt have been paid.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.

[MickG0105]

Its also hilarious that the so called COO Colin Hughes is claiming the workforce would have remained stood down during 2021( that part is true) & then goes on to say they wouldnt have been paid.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.
JobKeeper finished on 28 March 2021.

[JamieMaree]

JobKeeper finished on 28 March 2021.


That was what he said if one listened to it carefully instead of listening hoping that your football team was going to win. He said jobkeeper ceased and then it morphed into an airline specific package,
Keep your eye on the judge, he is on top of it.

[JamieMaree]

Its also hilarious that the so called COO Colin Hughes is claiming the workforce would have remained stood down during 2021( that part is true) & then goes on to say they wouldnt have been paid.
He in his wisdom has conveniently forgotten that Qantas would have been receiving jobkeeper payments from the govt to pass on to every employee.
Where does this company get these high flying executives from that constantly embarrass themselves every time their lips move.

It is obviously lost on you but both Mr Mc Intosh (TWU) and Mr Hughes (Qantas) are giving evidence on the basis of “ what would you have done” with the implication of what would it be if Covid hadn’t happened. They all refer to the evidence as “ counterfactual”

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1556x170/img_0887_f3c77f4f533a67e01af3d02c5188cec5c80b3238.jpeg

The case is all about compensation.
Qantas is saying: “ we would have retrenched you after 12 months in any case” so we are willing to pay 12 months pay as compensation.
The 3 TWU members are saying that they would have stayed working for Qf for the rest of their lives so compensation should be for the rest of the individuals working career.
As a consequence the arguments so far are about what would have happened. Strange, but that is what the evidence is all about.
The word “ counterfactual” is thrown about like confetti. The judge frequently uses the words” but for” which I guess means: “ what do you think would have happened but for……

[Clinton McKenzie]

The hearing is listed (https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/court-calendar/daily-court-lists/nsw) to resume again at 1015 Sydney time. Details of the broadcast are at the link.

[dragon man]

Qantas was warned that a legal challenge to outsourcing was ‘inevitable’A Federal Court hearing to determine how much compensation should be paid to outsourced Qantas workers, has been told the airline was warned a legal challenge was inevitable.
https://archive.md/Rv4uz/58258d505773de9c064f0439546f2f699ea2f4b5.png (https://archive.md/o/Rv4uz/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)Robyn Ironside (https://archive.md/o/Rv4uz/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)Aviation Writer
@ironsider (https://archive.md/o/Rv4uz/https://twitter.com/ironsider)
less than 2 min read
March 21, 2024 - 6:00AMThe Australian Business Network
https://archive.md/Rv4uz/03e660979ef3106e67302b9121e7b23d092610ba.webp


A Federal Court hearing to determine what compensation should be paid to former Qantas ground handling workers (https://archive.md/o/Rv4uz/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-moves-to-keep-compo-bill-for-outsourced-workforce-to-a-minimum/news-story/4eb2a833a905c9023e36c6555dcbe62c) whose jobs were unlawfully outsourced has been told the airline was warned early in the process that legal action was inevitable.
Giving evidence for a second day, former Qantas chief operating officer Colin Hughes, who was in charge of airport operations when the outsourcing occurred, said meetings with lawyers and industrial relations consultants were held in early June 2020.
The meetings discussed the certainty of a Transport Workers Union legal challenge (https://archive.md/o/Rv4uz/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/judges-tonguelashing-of-twu-as-compensation-hearings-for-qantas-outsourcing-kicks-off/news-story/90093d1efca8a361ca33ba402dd6ad12) to the outsourcing, because TWU national secretary Michael Kaine was “a lawyer who liked litigation”.
There was also discussion about the need for reasons for the outsourcing to be assessed by lawyers and a “decision maker” to be chosen.
Barrister Mark Gibian SC for the TWU said Herbert Smith Freehills partner Rohan Doyle told a meeting on June 1, 2020 “what the decision maker would ultimately say would be important in relation to the reasons”.
“Mr Doyle then said ‘it’s too early to give you a number on prospects’ – you understood that to be a reference to some sort of percentage prospect?” Mr Gibian said. “Yes that’s right,” Mr Hughes responded.
Justice Michael Lee asked Mr Hughes if it struck him as “a little odd that the concern was about what the decision maker says about the reasons, rather than saying what the reasons were”.
“It didn’t occur to me,” said Mr Hughes.
Discussion about who would be anointed the “decision maker” followed, with Mr Hughes suggesting that then chief operating officer Paul Jones seemed the most likely candidate.
“Paul is saying ‘I’ve done the work, logically I’m the right person and if it’s not me how far do you want to separate that out from the work that’s been done’,” said Mr Hughes.
Ultimately it was the then Qantas Domestic and International CEO Andrew David who was named as the decision maker, although the court hearing made it clear former CEO Alan Joyce was involved through the process.

[Window heat]

The comment re. keeping the payouts to a minimum is farcical. We received an email three days ago that the company “wanted the workers to receive “fair compensation””. I am sickened by the hypocrisy of our management. Their social credit is below zero.

[dragon man]

The comment re. keeping the payouts to a minimum is farcical. We received an email three days ago that the company “wanted the workers to receive “fair compensation””. I am sickened by the hypocrisy of our management. Their social credit is below zero.

Morally bankrupt is what I would say.

[dragon man]

I wonder if anyone at Qantas is thinking that maybe just maybe we should have settled this at mediation.



data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7Court blow for Qantas in compensation hearings for outsourced workersQantas’ case in compensation hearings for unlawfully outsourcing workers has been dealt a blow with Federal Court justice Michael Lee dismissing evidence from a key witness.
https://archive.md/De4hK/58258d505773de9c064f0439546f2f699ea2f4b5.png (https://archive.md/o/De4hK/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)Robyn Ironside (https://archive.md/o/De4hK/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)Aviation Writer
@ironsider (https://archive.md/o/De4hK/https://twitter.com/ironsider)
2 min read
March 21, 2024 - 2:23PMThe Australian Business Networkhttps://archive.md/De4hK/5f0a7ce2070d73bbf2d2b1a415ca79e7b9888e4a.jpgQantas and the Transport Workers Union are back in the Federal Court, over compensation payments to outsourced ground handling workers. Picture: NCA NewsWire


Qantas’ case in Federal Court hearings to determine compensation for unlawfully outsourced workers has been dealt a blow after the judge appeared to dismiss the evidence of a key witness.
Former chief operating officer Colin Hughes has argued he would still have recommended the outsourcing of the workers in 2021, if it had not occurred in 2020.
The argument is critical to Qantas’ case, which seeks to minimise its liability for compensation to a 12-month period (https://archive.md/o/De4hK/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-moves-to-keep-compo-bill-for-outsourced-workforce-to-a-minimum/news-story/4eb2a833a905c9023e36c6555dcbe62c), rather than the much broader time frame sought by the Transport Workers Union.
Evidence presented by TWU barrister Mark Gibian SC (https://archive.md/o/De4hK/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/judges-tonguelashing-of-twu-as-compensation-hearings-for-qantas-outsourcing-kicks-off/news-story/90093d1efca8a361ca33ba402dd6ad12) showed Qantas was expecting flying to increase considerably in 2021, making a mass outsourcing exercise less likely.
A statement by then chief executive Alan Joyce made on March 11, 2021 (https://archive.md/o/De4hK/www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-welcomes-federal-governments-aviation-support-package/), announcing further federal government assistance, talked about domestic flying returning to 80 per cent by mid-year.
“You would not have (recommended outsourcing) in February or March of 2021 because there was growing demand,” Mr Gibian put to Mr Hughes.
“I reject that entirely,” said Mr Hughes.
“The business had continued to lose money, there was spare capacity in the industry and there was an opportunity to save a significant sum of money.”
Mr Gibian suggested his evidence “was self-serving to help Qantas’ case” and did not reflect the facts.
Justice Michael Lee then weighed in, telling the court he would “work on what Mr Joyce said to the market”.
“I’m going to work on the basis that what Mr Joyce was saying at the time, reflects the true position of Qantas at the time,” said Justice Lee.
“You’ve got no basis to disagree with what Mr Joyce was saying?”
“No,” replied Mr Hughes. https://archive.md/De4hK/1b984253796ac35ef4a3d5a45fdfb52079d6ef07.jpgQantas outsourced its baggage handling, ground services and cleaning operations in 2020 in a decision the Federal Court ruled was unlawful in 2022. Picture: Gaye GerardThe next witness, former Qantas Domestic and International CEO Andrew David, said by June 2021 it was apparent the pandemic and associated restrictions on travel would continue to gouge the airline’s bottom line.
He said on that basis, there was no question he would have made the same decision to outsource the ground handling operation for “lawful commercial reasons” that he did in 2020.
“The case for me would’ve been as compelling as it was in August 2020, (because of) the impacts that the Delta strain had on the business and the position we found ourselves in,” said Mr David.
Asked about the factors taken into account in the decision-making process, Mr David said he understood there to be “considerable risk, but I had to assess those risks against the rewards of the commercial benefits of outsourcing”.
As well as the industrial risks, Mr David said there were concerns about the government response.
“That was a concern in 2020, and it would’ve been a concern in 2021,” Mr David told the court.
“Qantas was one of the main recipients of Jobkeeper, I think in total we got $850m from the government through Jobkeeper. I was very cognisant that us outsourcing 1700 workers in the context of the Jobkeeper scheme was an issue that needed to be managed carefully with the government.”
Although Jobkeeper ended in March 2021, Qantas continued to receive government support to the tune of $800m for its domestic business and $86m for international, said Mr David.
“In 2020, we got the government to a position where they understood we had to make this (outsourcing) decision because of the financial pressures,” he said.
Hearings to determine compensation were set down until Tuesday

[Clinton McKenzie]

The hearing is listed (https://www.fedcourt.gov.au/court-calendar/daily-court-lists/nsw) to resume again at 0930 Sydney time. Details of the broadcast are at the link.

[joe_bloggs]

Did the hearing go ahead today? I couldn’t find it.

[JamieMaree]

Did the hearing go ahead today? I couldn’t find it.


It finished before lunch time.Decision not expected before late May.

[Stationair8]

Looks like a few senior management people are leaving Myer already, perhaps they didn't need to drink the Qantas Koolaid.

[hotnhigh]

The afl is paging a Mr Goyder. A Mr Richard Goyder. He may be a little busy dealing with the latest oversight issue at AFL house.
Some of the language in wilkies statement to parliament yesterday were quite illuminating character references.
I'm guessing some of those mentioned are also members of the chairman’s lounge.

[dragon man]

No end in sight to engine trouble at QantasCrikey has spoken to Qantas engineers about the ongoing issues plaguing the airline.

MICHAEL SAINSBURY (https://www.crikey.com.au/author/michael-sainsbury/)

MAR 27, 2024

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https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/meips/ADKq_NYsGGL0ny1QtBAbOSy0GcvyuvEiAU3It_1cXKWYJDuOUvzWDHXxLvtG 47xYBRPI9SBXjl0DtCwEqVn0p46hyWGuAS6BxqBcSxn5kNtdBOWzStVnSMfw vsChX0rL4lh6fyrtjzYqwGxcZuXYqZCdZzEjUHdVN9WPoCKnRlQMXi-pXYMa2CnHd_34Nw=s0-d-e1-ft#https://www.crikey.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/20201201001506292355-original.jpg?quality=70&w=740&h=400&crop=1A QANTAS PLANE IN 2020 (IMAGE: AAP/DAVE HUNT)The mid-air engine shutdown that forced a Qantas A330 back to Perth on Monday night after a “loud bang” (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-26/qantas-flight-lands-in-perth-after-engine-shut-down-bang-heard/103632442) comes as no surprise to those working on the company’s aircraft, both in the cockpit and on the ground. In fact, sources tell Crikey, it is business as usual with Qantas having engine trouble on a number of fronts.

Coming just days ahead of Easter Thursday, the airline’s busiest day of the year, the loss of (one of) the largest aircraft the airline flies domestically will play havoc with flight schedules.

The 21-year-old A330, the oldest plane (https://australianaviation.com.au/2024/03/exclusive-qantas-a330-hit-by-engine-failure-was-oldest-in-fleet/#:~:text=The%20Qantas%20fleet%20currently%20contains,been%20 manufactured%20in%20October%202002.) in the Qantas fleet, is unlikely to be back in the air for at least a week, engineers told Crikey, and that’s if there is a spare engine in the country.
Read More (https://www.crikey.com.au/2024/03/25/qantas-pilot-shortage-aipa-australian-and-international-pilots-association/)Pictures of the engine, seen by Crikey, show a broken turbine. The incident is so serious the company has had all the data recorders preserved for investigation by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB), insiders said. The incident follows serious problems (previously unreported in the media) with an engine on another A330 where a piece of metal tubing that was part of the turbine case cooling was found poking out of an engine, pilots involved said.

Qantas’ long-haul B787s and A330s, as well as the red tail fleet’s domestic workhorse B737s, are not being given enough downtime for regular checks and tweaks including on their engines, engineers and pilots said.

“If you don’t give a plane enough downtime, it will eventually do it for you,” one engineer explained.

The B787s, the youngest planes in the Qantas fleet, are having trouble with badly overheating engines resulting in a “couple of turnbacks” in South Africa, pilots said. One of those was due to an engine that had overheated by 40 degrees.It was given a temporary certificate for 10 more flights and was then removed from service completely. Qantas had no spare General Electric engines used by the 787s so it was forced to take one from a Jetstar 787.

This week’s engine failure comes 14 months after another major engine failure, on a B737 from Auckland to Sydney, that was investigated by the ATSB (https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/03/revealed-what-caused-a-qantas-flight-from-akls-engine-to-fail/) and where voice recorders were “inadvertently” written over.

Sources say the engine problems are the direct result of the chronic underinvestment in aircraft — there is no spare capacity at all — and the company’s engineering workforce and spare parts by former CEO Alan Joyce. The penny-pinching maintenance regime he instituted has been underpinned by the airline’s wholesale outsourcing of core capabilities, designed to boost profits and executive bonuses, which has continued under Joyce’s successor Vanessa Hudson.

The company now undertakes all its frontline heavy maintenance for its international planes offshore in a range of places including Los Angeles, Manila, Singapore and Abu Dhabi. In a bid to trim inventory costs, it keeps few, if any, major parts such as engines in Australia. This is at a time when its planes are ageing and being worked harder than ever, meaning chances of major mechanical and electrical issues are rising — and are taking longer to fix.

This causes the serial delays and cancellations that have plagued the airline since the end of pandemic lockdowns. Fresh data last week (https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-domestic-airline-data-february-2024/f37390cf-a000-47c4-9a4f-306664b4a469) showed the airline cancelling one in 20 flights. All the management consulting in the world — Hudson has called in McKinsey (https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-domestic-airline-data-february-2024/f37390cf-a000-47c4-9a4f-306664b4a469) to help the planes run on time — can’t create a younger fleet, pull new aircraft out of thin air, or birth experienced
Read More (https://www.crikey.com.au/2024/03/14/australia-pilot-shortage-crisis-qantas-virgin-rex/)The airline is so short of long-haul aircraft it “wet leased” — using Finnair flight deck and cabin crew — two Finnair A330s (https://www.ch-aviation.com/news/127847-qantas-to-wet-lease-two-a330s-from-3q23) now flying Sydney-Singapore/Bangkok routes.

A promised engineers academy (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-engineering-academy-moves-ahead-to-supercharge-australian-engineering-training/)will not even begin training people in three year courses until 2025 if it is on time. Qantas is presently plugging the hole in its already ageing engineering workforce by bringing back retirees, many of whom were forced into redundancy by Qantas during the pandemic. These workers are only a short-term solution, engineers said, and reflect a workforce whose average age is about 55.

“We have 15 apprentices. We need double or triple that a year going forward,” an engineer in Sydney said.

Moreover, the company’s dire shortage of long-haul planes just got worse, with regulators demanding fresh checks (https://simpleflying.com/easa-airbus-a380-wing-cracks-directive/) for wing-crack prone A380s, the world’s largest commercial aircraft. Qantas now has four of these parked in Abu Dhabi (thanks to outsourcing) and the return to service of three will now be delayed.

One is due back next week. One has wing cracks, delaying its return by about six weeks. Another needs a 12-year check and will be parked in Abu Dhabi until late this year. And the last has run out landing gear cycles and needs a new interior. It won’t be back into service until late this year or early next, all of which is very poor planning by Qantas, engineers said.

Qantas did not respond to detailed questions about its aircraft.

The airline has belatedly ordered new B787 and A350 (https://simpleflying.com/qantas-orders-a350s-787s-replace-a330s-a380s/) long-range aircraft but the former are not scheduled to arrive until at least late 2026 and the latter until 2032 — timetables that now look doubtful, with manufacturers Boeing and Airbus experiencing heavy demand and warning of delivery delays (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240223-boeing-airbus-struggle-to-deliver-planes-as-supply-chain-woes-persist).

In the meantime the “Flying” Kangaroo will continue to limp along with its ever-ageing fleet and bung engines. The losers, as usual, are the flying public, and Qantas aircraft-related staff.

[morno]

No end in sight to engine trouble at QantasCrikey has spoken to Qantas engineers about the ongoing issues plaguing the airline.

MICHAEL SAINSBURY (https://www.crikey.com.au/author/michael-sainsbury/)

MAR 27, 2024

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https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/meips/ADKq_NYsGGL0ny1QtBAbOSy0GcvyuvEiAU3It_1cXKWYJDuOUvzWDHXxLvtG 47xYBRPI9SBXjl0DtCwEqVn0p46hyWGuAS6BxqBcSxn5kNtdBOWzStVnSMfw vsChX0rL4lh6fyrtjzYqwGxcZuXYqZCdZzEjUHdVN9WPoCKnRlQMXi-pXYMa2CnHd_34Nw=s0-d-e1-ft#https://www.crikey.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/20201201001506292355-original.jpg?quality=70&w=740&h=400&crop=1A QANTAS PLANE IN 2020 (IMAGE: AAP/DAVE HUNT)The mid-air engine shutdown that forced a Qantas A330 back to Perth on Monday night after a “loud bang” (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-26/qantas-flight-lands-in-perth-after-engine-shut-down-bang-heard/103632442) comes as no surprise to those working on the company’s aircraft, both in the cockpit and on the ground. In fact, sources tell Crikey, it is business as usual with Qantas having engine trouble on a number of fronts.

Coming just days ahead of Easter Thursday, the airline’s busiest day of the year, the loss of (one of) the largest aircraft the airline flies domestically will play havoc with flight schedules.

The 21-year-old A330, the oldest plane (https://australianaviation.com.au/2024/03/exclusive-qantas-a330-hit-by-engine-failure-was-oldest-in-fleet/#:~:text=The%20Qantas%20fleet%20currently%20contains,been%20 manufactured%20in%20October%202002.) in the Qantas fleet, is unlikely to be back in the air for at least a week, engineers told Crikey, and that’s if there is a spare engine in the country.
Read More (https://www.crikey.com.au/2024/03/25/qantas-pilot-shortage-aipa-australian-and-international-pilots-association/)Pictures of the engine, seen by Crikey, show a broken turbine. The incident is so serious the company has had all the data recorders preserved for investigation by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB), insiders said. The incident follows serious problems (previously unreported in the media) with an engine on another A330 where a piece of metal tubing that was part of the turbine case cooling was found poking out of an engine, pilots involved said.

Qantas’ long-haul B787s and A330s, as well as the red tail fleet’s domestic workhorse B737s, are not being given enough downtime for regular checks and tweaks including on their engines, engineers and pilots said.

“If you don’t give a plane enough downtime, it will eventually do it for you,” one engineer explained.

The B787s, the youngest planes in the Qantas fleet, are having trouble with badly overheating engines resulting in a “couple of turnbacks” in South Africa, pilots said. One of those was due to an engine that had overheated by 40 degrees.It was given a temporary certificate for 10 more flights and was then removed from service completely. Qantas had no spare General Electric engines used by the 787s so it was forced to take one from a Jetstar 787.

This week’s engine failure comes 14 months after another major engine failure, on a B737 from Auckland to Sydney, that was investigated by the ATSB (https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/03/revealed-what-caused-a-qantas-flight-from-akls-engine-to-fail/) and where voice recorders were “inadvertently” written over.

Sources say the engine problems are the direct result of the chronic underinvestment in aircraft — there is no spare capacity at all — and the company’s engineering workforce and spare parts by former CEO Alan Joyce. The penny-pinching maintenance regime he instituted has been underpinned by the airline’s wholesale outsourcing of core capabilities, designed to boost profits and executive bonuses, which has continued under Joyce’s successor Vanessa Hudson.

The company now undertakes all its frontline heavy maintenance for its international planes offshore in a range of places including Los Angeles, Manila, Singapore and Abu Dhabi. In a bid to trim inventory costs, it keeps few, if any, major parts such as engines in Australia. This is at a time when its planes are ageing and being worked harder than ever, meaning chances of major mechanical and electrical issues are rising — and are taking longer to fix.

This causes the serial delays and cancellations that have plagued the airline since the end of pandemic lockdowns. Fresh data last week (https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-domestic-airline-data-february-2024/f37390cf-a000-47c4-9a4f-306664b4a469) showed the airline cancelling one in 20 flights. All the management consulting in the world — Hudson has called in McKinsey (https://www.9news.com.au/national/australia-domestic-airline-data-february-2024/f37390cf-a000-47c4-9a4f-306664b4a469) to help the planes run on time — can’t create a younger fleet, pull new aircraft out of thin air, or birth experienced
Read More (https://www.crikey.com.au/2024/03/14/australia-pilot-shortage-crisis-qantas-virgin-rex/)The airline is so short of long-haul aircraft it “wet leased” — using Finnair flight deck and cabin crew — two Finnair A330s (https://www.ch-aviation.com/news/127847-qantas-to-wet-lease-two-a330s-from-3q23) now flying Sydney-Singapore/Bangkok routes.

A promised engineers academy (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-engineering-academy-moves-ahead-to-supercharge-australian-engineering-training/)will not even begin training people in three year courses until 2025 if it is on time. Qantas is presently plugging the hole in its already ageing engineering workforce by bringing back retirees, many of whom were forced into redundancy by Qantas during the pandemic. These workers are only a short-term solution, engineers said, and reflect a workforce whose average age is about 55.

“We have 15 apprentices. We need double or triple that a year going forward,” an engineer in Sydney said.

Moreover, the company’s dire shortage of long-haul planes just got worse, with regulators demanding fresh checks (https://simpleflying.com/easa-airbus-a380-wing-cracks-directive/) for wing-crack prone A380s, the world’s largest commercial aircraft. Qantas now has four of these parked in Abu Dhabi (thanks to outsourcing) and the return to service of three will now be delayed.

One is due back next week. One has wing cracks, delaying its return by about six weeks. Another needs a 12-year check and will be parked in Abu Dhabi until late this year. And the last has run out landing gear cycles and needs a new interior. It won’t be back into service until late this year or early next, all of which is very poor planning by Qantas, engineers said.

Qantas did not respond to detailed questions about its aircraft.

The airline has belatedly ordered new B787 and A350 (https://simpleflying.com/qantas-orders-a350s-787s-replace-a330s-a380s/) long-range aircraft but the former are not scheduled to arrive until at least late 2026 and the latter until 2032 — timetables that now look doubtful, with manufacturers Boeing and Airbus experiencing heavy demand and warning of delivery delays (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240223-boeing-airbus-struggle-to-deliver-planes-as-supply-chain-woes-persist).

In the meantime the “Flying” Kangaroo will continue to limp along with its ever-ageing fleet and bung engines. The losers, as usual, are the flying public, and Qantas aircraft-related staff.

Whilst I appreciate his willingness to report Qantas’ issues, Michael needs to do a bit of fact checking on some of his stories.

For a start, the A330 with the engine failure the other night didn’t “return” to Perth, Perth was its destination.

Secondly, the order for A350’s (non Sunrise ones) is due to begin in 2027 around the same time as the new 787’s, not 2032 :rolleyes:.

His articles would hold more weight if they were correct.

[megan]

the A330 with the engine failure the other night didn’t “return” to Perth, Perth was its destinationBetter than some of the media, only identified in the print as an "Airbus" with a photo of a 380. Airbus is close enough I guess.

[dragon man]

Firm order for four Boeing 787-9 and eight 787-10 aircraft, with deliveries starting in FY27.
Firm order for 12 Airbus A350-1000s, with deliveries starting in FY28.
Purchase right options split between Airbus and Boeing to complete A330 and A380 fleet replacement and provide for growth.
Both orders include significant flexibility to adjust the timing of deliveries

That’s from the Qantas newsroom, so the additional 12 350s commence delivery after July 1 2028. I think his reference to 2032 is in relation to options for 380 replacements. Clear as mud.

[MickG0105]

Firm order for four Boeing 787-9 and eight 787-10 aircraft, with deliveries starting in FY27.
Firm order for 12 Airbus A350-1000s, with deliveries starting in FY28.
Purchase right options split between Airbus and Boeing to complete A330 and A380 fleet replacement and provide for growth.
Both orders include significant flexibility to adjust the timing of deliveries

That’s from the Qantas newsroom, so the additional 12 350s commence delivery after July 1 2028. I think his reference to 2032 is in relation to options for 380 replacements. Clear as mud.
FY28 ends on 30 June 2028; FY29 starts on 1 July 2028.

[JamieMaree]

Even though the airframe may be 21 years old, it is highly unlikely that faulty engine is the original engine on the airframe.
Sainsbury wouldn't consider because it is not dramatic enough for a Crikey story.

[dragon man]

FY28 ends on 30 June 2028; FY29 starts on 1 July 2028.

My apologies

[MickG0105]

My apologies
No problemo, it can be a bit confusing, even more so when if you have UK or US companies involved.

[Chronic Snoozer]

QANTAS have called these guys in to consult. Not saying anything illegal has been done, just reflecting on the company that advises QANTAS on flight delays.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/mckinsey-faces-us-criminal-probe-over-opioids-work-sources-say-20240425-p5fmih.html

[gordonfvckingramsay]

QANTAS have called these guys in to consult. Not saying anything illegal has been done, just reflecting on the company that advises QANTAS on flight delays.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/mckinsey-faces-us-criminal-probe-over-opioids-work-sources-say-20240425-p5fmih.html

Wikipedia is even more enlightening (also not suggesting any wrongdoing).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinsey_%26_Company

The controversies tab is where the interesting stuff lies.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

AFR is reporting a settlement between ACCC and Qantas - $100m fine for selling tickets on cancelled flights.

wonder if the board will be clawing that back from AJ?

[Window heat]

There has to be some financial penalty for this guy. Furthermore, the serial Chairman of rubbish boards who was his enabler.

[dragon man]

Take it to court and humiliate them, put Joyce on the witness stand for cross examination and rub his nose in the poo he created.

[neville_nobody]

Take it to court and humiliate them, put Joyce on the witness stand for cross examination and rub his nose in the poo he created.

That is what should happen but the ACCC will settle and QF know it. That's why there's a mea culpa. The management will walk away Scot Free with their 10s of millions.

It still amazes me what you can get away with in management. Imagine if a pilot flagrantly broke the law what would happen. Meanwhile if you are in management you can do whatever you want and the company has your back and will even pay the fine for you.

[dragon man]

That is what should happen but the ACCC will settle and QF know it. That's why there's a mea culpa. The management will walk away Scot Free with their 10s of millions.

It still amazes me what you can get away with in management. Imagine if a pilot flagrantly broke the law what would happen. Meanwhile if you are in management you can do whatever you want and the company has your back and will even pay the fine for you.


By settling this no one personally is been held responsible. Joyce has sailed off into the sun set with $180 million minus tax , would he care if they took the $2.5 million minus tax bonus off him, I doubt it. The massive fine on a $2.5 billion profit is not even 4% after tax. Piss poor effort that Tony!!

[dragon man]

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7



OPINION PIECE FROM THE DAILY TELEGRAPHBy fining Qantas $120m, the consumer watchdog proves it is all bark and no biteWhy did the $120 million fine for Qantas fall short of the “record penalty” threatened by the consumer watchdog?
James Willis 2 min read
May 6, 2024 - 12:28PM

In August 2023 Gina Cass-Gotlieb famously claimed that Qantas would be hit with a record penalty for selling ghost flight tickets

Qantas to pay $120m for cancelled flights (https://archive.md/o/XtGmi/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-strikes-120m-deal-with-accc-over-ghost-flight-ticket-sales/news-story/f2d2710cbdf0870bdb97daef84c150dc)

“We consider that this should be a record penalty.”
They were the bold words of ACCC chief Gina Cass-Gotlieb last year, when promising to throw the book at Qantas for their conduct.
“This is going to be an important test for us… penalties have been too low. We are pursuing this matter in court. We took it in a defined and strong way and we will continue to proceed,” she said.
Australians have every right to be scratching their heads and wondering what on earth happened. Having promised to fight Qantas to the death for selling tickets on flights that didn’t actually exist, the ACCC has done a deal and let them off the hook.
The Federal Court action is coming to an end, with Qantas to pay a proposed $100 million fine and another $20 million to customers. https://archive.md/XtGmi/3aff16ed21275d08896d774c5024a7230b1691c6.jpgFormer Qantas CEO Alan Joyce was in charge of the airline during the “ghost flight” scandal.While the fine may seem hefty, it falls desperately short of what the ACCC was promising when this appalling behaviour first came to light.
In an interview about Qantas in August, Ms Cass-Gotlieb said: “The highest penalty to date against a breach of the Australian consumer law was $125 million against Volkswagen and we consider that this should be a record penalty for this conduct. We would want to get to more than twice that figure.”
She was threating a $250 million whack and that's before you include the compensation for dudded customers.
It was a promise that attracted many positive headlines for the ACCC, at a time when it felt like the entire country was piling on the Flying Kangaroo.
“We are going to seek a penalty that will underline that this is not just to be a cost of doing business. We consider (historic) penalties have been too low. This will be an important case in that regard” Ms Cass-Gotlieb said.https://archive.md/XtGmi/9ba02ce3ee31869fe44cc25dfb1f5cc091966f00.jpgAustralian Competition and Consumer Commission Chair Gina Cass-Gottleib claimed Qantas would be hit with a “record penalty.” Picture: Jane DempsterAfter initially denying the severity of the allegations - Qantas has now waved the white flag. They have admitted to misleading customers by selling tickets for flights it had already cancelled internally. Ghost flights. They also cancelled thousands of other flights without telling ticket holders of their decision.And this wasn’t for a single month. The airline concedes this happened between May 2021 and August 2023. 2 years and 3 months. Disgracefully, part of this occurred during the worst stages of the pandemic, when booking trips and holidays was a nightmare.
86,000 dudded customers will be compensated a total of $20 million and rightly so.
The ACCC says the conduct of Qantas was “egregious .
Wonderful - so then a basic point.
If the behaviour was worthy of a “record penalty”– as the consumer watchdog insisted it was – then a record penalty should have been issued.
Once again we have a case of the ACCC being all bark and no bite

[Gas Chamber]

Give back your ill gotten bonuses you disgusting grubs.
Airline is run by morons. Honestly. Just buy some planes and pay your staff. Not that hard.
Maybe just outsource your own jobs…oh wait
you already did.

[unobtanium]

maybe her opinion changed when her quantas christmas card came with chairmans lounge invite attached.

[Ollie Onion]

And Qantas gets away with it again, weasels their way out of a just fine.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Sorry, not sorry: Qantas perfects the art of the non-apology
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/sorry-not-sorry-qantas-perfects-the-art-of-the-non-apology-20240507-p5fqgb.html

Joe Aston

[dragon man]

GEE HE IS SO GOOD




Business (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/business)
Companies (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies)
Aviation (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/topic/aviation-5ut)

OPINIONSorry, not sorry: Qantas perfects the art of the non-apologyhttps://archive.md/R0XDW/7502e2d4eb85b3400f8da1f991960eb1b8295252.webpJoe Aston (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/by/joe-aston-hveym)ColumnistMay 8, 2024 — 11.13am
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Normal text sizeALarger text sizeAVery large text sizeA Qantas’ new CEO Vanessa Hudson is desperate to appear different to her predecessor Alan Joyce. Funny, ’cos they sure as hell apologise the same way.
“Sorry, not sorry.” That’s the reflex response from the airline’s Mascot headquarters, irrespective of who’s boss. https://archive.md/R0XDW/1a792073db03a2b00c983d46584194110a22d6b4.webp Vanessa Hudson says she wants to be judged by her actions, not her words.CREDIT: JOE ARMAO When Qantas settled the Australian Consumer and Competition Commission’s ghost flights case against it on Monday, agreeing to pay $120 million in penalties (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5fp4b) and compensation, Hudson reduced the airline’s wrongdoing to mere “delays in communications”. Thus, “the penalties and compensation that have been outlined today is for delays in communications”.
Delays that went on systematically for 15 months and which Qantas magically happened to profit from!
Let’s be real here. Qantas has admitted to misleading consumers and made an undertaking not to repeat the misconduct. It has admitted the misconduct was not limited to the winter of 2022, as originally alleged, but continued until August 2023.
But this is the Qantas way – it is so entrenched. “We’re sorry but alongside our apology, here is our self-serving minimisation of what really happened.” It is absolutely no different to Qantas saying: “We’re sorry for sacking 1700 people illegally (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5e4bd), but we had sound commercial reasons.” Play Video
https://archive.md/R0XDW/3a94a9f46d268566ad6d91d863ba80df9286b4cf.jpg (https://archive.md/R0XDW/again?url=https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/sorry-not-sorry-qantas-perfects-the-art-of-the-non-apology-20240507-p5fqgb.html#) https://archive.md/R0XDW/3a94a9f46d268566ad6d91d863ba80df9286b4cf.jpg (https://archive.md/R0XDW/again?url=https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/sorry-not-sorry-qantas-perfects-the-art-of-the-non-apology-20240507-p5fqgb.html#)
Play video
0:47 (https://archive.md/R0XDW/again?url=https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/sorry-not-sorry-qantas-perfects-the-art-of-the-non-apology-20240507-p5fqgb.html#)Qantas to repay customers for selling tickets for cancelled flights (https://archive.md/R0XDW/again?url=https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/sorry-not-sorry-qantas-perfects-the-art-of-the-non-apology-20240507-p5fqgb.html#)
Qantas will repay customers $20 million for selling tickets to flights it planned to cancel.
Qantas’ settlement was even characterised as “a win” for Hudson in some quarters.
How is it ever a victory to pay $120 million for wrongdoing? It’s not even about the number, it’s about the shame associated with it. It’s being the kid caught with the face full of cake mix when you swore black and blue you never touched it.Qantas also said the $120 million will be recognised in its financial accounts as an item outside underlying profit. That means it will have zero impact on the profit measure that determines half of Hudson’s bonus. Half her luck.
“We absolutely have maintained and continue that we did not take fees for no service,” she insisted.
Hudson is strictly correct that the ACCC dropped its claim, as part of the settlement, that Qantas wrongly accepted payment from the affected customers.
But what is always omitted from analyses of the ghost flights misadventure is that the ACCC’s action evolved from its original investigation into Qantas’ COVID flight credits, which single-handedly made Qantas the most complained-about company (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5cqdg) in Australia.
When Qantas cancelled flights during the pandemic, which it regularly did, tickets were transferred into COVID flight credits. Redeeming those credits was, for so many customers, outrageously difficult. It is near impossible to resist the conclusion that it was difficult by design.
Qantas customers were in 2020 owed $2 billion in COVID credits, but by August last year, with all remaining credits set to expire on December 31, 2023, Qantas was assuring the public that the balance was down to $370 million. Then a Senate committee forced Qantas to admit that, actually, the balance was $570 million (https://archive.md/o/R0XDW/https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p5e0uy)! https://archive.md/R0XDW/1d4cc3bd12eba9290bfe63ebc376ee84e23b6137.webp ACCC chair Gina Cass-Gottlieb. The ACCC’s action evolved out of its original investigation into Qantas’ COVID flight credits.CREDIT: EDWINA PICKLES That’s why, days before that Senate hearing, unveiling a record $2.5 billion profit for 2023, Vanessa Hudson said, “This is not as good as it gets for Qantas,” presumably because she was counting on $500 million of expired COVID credits dropping straight into her profit for 2024. That was undeniably an attempt at fees for no service.
Sadly for Hudson, when the ACCC launched its bombshell action over the ghost flights, it also forced Qantas to remove the expiry dates from all COVID credits. But this is all in the past, right? Wrong.
When you attempt to use a flight credit, Qantas transfers you into a special booking engine which displays airfares that are often significantly higher than the airfares offered on the exact same flights in the regular qantas.com booking engine.
This is the system whether you were attempting to use a COVID flight credit in the past or a regular Qantas flight credit today (regular flight credits replaced COVID flight credits for any cancelled bookings after October 2021 and unlike COVID credits, they expire after 12 months).
In recent months, Qantas added a legal disclaimer to this process. “If you use a payment method other than Flight Credit on qantas.com,” it says, “lower fares may be available.”
Customers are forced to click “I understand” if they wish to proceed and redeem their credit. There is no “I don’t understand” button. You can either indicate your understanding that you are being ripped off or you can forfeit all of your money. Those are your binary options.
Qantas then hits you with a $99 booking fee, which they deduct from your credit, even though your re-booking has been 100 per cent self-administered!
What’s more, “You can only use your Flight Credit to book fares that are equal to or higher than the value of your Flight Credit.” Therefore, if you have a $500 credit and the airfare you want to book is $199, you simply lose $301 (or technically $202 once you factor in the self-booking fee). Qantas adds that $301 to its gargantuan profits as “breakage” revenue. https://archive.md/R0XDW/a876b2d3a44680e68d439f450cd02980add2070c.webp Ghost flights were just one in a suite of behaviours that were emblematic of Qantas’ poor culture.CREDIT: PETER RAE Qantas could issue you with a new $301 credit. That would be the ethical thing to do, but being ethical is expensive, so they don’t.
At the very minimum, Qantas has banked multiple tens of millions of dollars this way and by the definition of any ordinary, reasonable citizen, it is deceptive conduct. It is legal theft at scale and it is still happening.
So many Australians have had, and continue to have, infuriating experiences with these credits. It is occurring right under the noses of our politicians and regulators whose apathy on the matter is profoundly depressing.
Ghost flights were just one in a suite of behaviours that were emblematic of Qantas’ poor culture. To suggest that settling this one matter means Qantas is now a trustworthy company is to be wilfully blind to extremely recent history.
If Vanessa Hudson changed Qantas’ unbelievably aggressive revenue management practices, I would agree with her pretension to be “restoring confidence in the national carrier”. Until then, it looks to me like just another chapter in Qantas’ storied history of image management.

[Cloudee]

“The liars at Qantas lied to customers over ghost flights, then lied about their liesThere is seemingly no end to the deception at the flying kangaroo.”Bernard Keane (https://www.crikey.com.au/author/bernard-keane/)May 06, 2024
crickey.com.au

[megan]

Sadly for Hudson, when the ACCC launched its bombshell action over the ghost flights, it also forced Qantas to remove the expiry dates from all COVID credits. But this is all in the past, right? Wrong.
When you attempt to use a flight credit, Qantas transfers you into a special booking engine which displays airfares that are often significantly higher than the airfares offered on the exact same flights in the regular qantas.com booking engine.
This is the system whether you were attempting to use a COVID flight credit in the past or a regular Qantas flight credit today (regular flight credits replaced COVID flight credits for any cancelled bookings after October 2021 and unlike COVID credits, they expire after 12 months).
In recent months, Qantas added a legal disclaimer to this process. “If you use a payment method other than Flight Credit on qantas.com,” it says, “lower fares may be available.”
Customers are forced to click “I understand” if they wish to proceed and redeem their credit. There is no “I don’t understand” button. You can either indicate your understanding that you are being ripped off or you can forfeit all of your money. Those are your binary options.
Qantas then hits you with a $99 booking fee, which they deduct from your credit, even though your re-booking has been 100 per cent self-administered!
What’s more, “You can only use your Flight Credit to book fares that are equal to or higher than the value of your Flight Credit.” Therefore, if you have a $500 credit and the airfare you want to book is $199, you simply lose $301 (or technically $202 once you factor in the self-booking fee). Qantas adds that $301 to its gargantuan profits as “breakage” revenueYou have to joking, QF, I'd take to walking over broken glass before I willingly gave you a dollar.