QF SH log of claims

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Can anyone here provide any info on the SH log of claims please? I’ve heard it’s “interesting”, hopefully the worm is turning.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Hopefully they keep their cards close to their chests and don’t blab about it on a social media platform.

[BO0M]

Hopefully they keep their cards close to their chests and don’t blab about it on a social media platform.

So with multiple other EBAs currently in negotuations around the country the supposed "pinnacle of the industry" who bleat here most days about every other pilot job not chinning the bar, won't put down what they are going for? Would it not be in the interests of the entire industry to see what the expected standard is going to be so everyone can negotiate better contracts?

Note: that statement is only applicable if those claims have already been lodged with the company

[SixDemonBag]

Fruit platters. Every sector.

[Jack D. Ripper]

So with multiple other EBAs currently in negotuations around the country the supposed "pinnacle of the industry" who bleat here most days about every other pilot job not chinning the bar, won't put down what they are going for? Would it not be in the interests of the entire industry to see what the expected standard is going to be so everyone can negotiate better contracts?

Note: that statement is only applicable if those claims have already been lodged with the company

Jeez Boom, don’t you get it, they’re better than you.

It’s a cultural thing (apparently only at CEO and Board level though …..)

[dr dre]

If the past is anything to go by negotiations usually take about 12 months before the first vote is held. The first meetings are always exploratory rather than specific. The union has a list of priorities from member surveys which they will work into specific claims over the course of negotiations, but any specific claims logged will remain in confidence until an agreement is reached so even those negotiating won’t be allowed to reveal them.

[soseg]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x500/cryface_ea2c10a3faf4a548dbcbe9ca1017c61140c98518.jpg

[RobCl]

If the past is anything to go by negotiations usually take about 12 months before the first vote is held. The first meetings are always exploratory rather than specific. The union has a list of priorities from member surveys which they will work into specific claims over the course of negotiations, but any specific claims logged will remain in confidence until an agreement is reached so even those negotiating won’t be allowed to reveal them.

It would be unusual to enter a negotiation without a log of claims and there is zero problem with disclosing them - unless you want to spin whatever deal you get as a victory.

A member lead union should be keeping the members informed of what is going on in the room. Keeping things behind closed doors (outside of business confidential costings etc) only benefits the company ... and potentially a union leadership not interested in representing the membership.

[Keg]

Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So with multiple other EBAs currently in negotuations around the country the supposed "pinnacle of the industry" who bleat here most days about every other pilot job not chinning the bar, won't put down what they are going for? Would it not be in the interests of the entire industry to see what the expected standard is going to be so everyone can negotiate better contracts?

Note: that statement is only applicable if those claims have already been lodged with the company

Bingo! This is the thrust of why I asked the question. It’s about time the multitude of fragmented business units and siloed operation essentially doing the same job on different pay and conditions, shared what they expect from the industry. The next round of EBAs will define what management get away with for the next 3 or 4 decades.

[Ollie Onion]

Well, the biggest problem with achieving big EBA gains is still that there is NO shortage of pilots wanting to join Qantas. Things are different in the rest of the world as they are in competitive recruitment markets and are literally in a bidding war to attract pilots. Who is the competitor that Qantas is having to ‘outbid’. Same issue with Air NZ Mainline, who is the competitor, the only restriction on Air NZ recruitment is their self imposed recruit from Group deal. I was speaking to a subsidiary company manager recently and said that he should be concerned with the amount of FO’s looking to leave, his reply was ‘not at all we will simply recruit more’.

[The Love Doctor]

Its about time all the subsidiaries and mainline all did PIA together in support of each other. Its about time we played these twits at their own game

[Colonel_Klink]

Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!

Except it’s not this at all.

Your members should have an idea of what your organisation is advocating for on their behalf in the room.

Will you be challenging the whole concept of the wages policy?

Will you accept wage freezes in any form especially given the largesse of bonuses about to be showered upon your CEO?

What will be done to counter the constant threats to outsource work to cheaper subsidiaries?

The entire profession is counting on QF pilots to stand up to the disgraceful bully that is QF IR.

[cloudsurfng]

Well, the biggest problem with achieving big EBA gains is still that there is NO shortage of pilots wanting to join Qantas. Things are different in the rest of the world as they are in competitive recruitment markets and are literally in a bidding war to attract pilots. Who is the competitor that Qantas is having to ‘outbid’. Same issue with Air NZ Mainline, who is the competitor, the only restriction on Air NZ recruitment is their self imposed recruit from Group deal. I was speaking to a subsidiary company manager recently and said that he should be concerned with the amount of FO’s looking to leave, his reply was ‘not at all we will simply recruit more’.

there is however a huge shortage of pilots wanting to fly the 737. One just has to look at how junior east coast commands went, and how many FO vacancies were left unfilled. 30 in SYD alone. It wasn’t that long ago it took 7 years before you could get a SYD 737 FO slot. Given the flow on effect to the 321 and how these positions will be filled ( SYD is first) I’d say it’s something that will need to be addressed.

[transition_alt]

Minimum daily credit is required like LH. Too many hours are lost due cancellations at the moment.

[RobCl]

Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!

Except it’s not this at all.

Your members should have an idea of what your organisation is advocating for on their behalf in the room.

Will you be challenging the whole concept of the wages policy?

Will you accept wage freezes in any form especially given the largesse of bonuses about to be showered upon your CEO?

What will be done to counter the constant threats to outsource work to cheaper subsidiaries?

The entire profession is counting on QF pilots to stand up to the disgraceful bully that is QF IR.

Have to agree with the Colonel here. I am not advocating you 'play poker with the cards face up'

I am advocating you provide members with the information they need to understand what you are advocating for on their behalf so when the time comes for an industrial campaign they have an understanding and ownership of what they are fighting for.

Moreover, I am advocating for unions letting their members know what is going on in the meetings, once their cards have already been revealed to the employer, why keep the members from seeing those same cards?

[maggot]

Minimum daily credit is required like LH. Too many hours are lost due cancellations at the moment.

I'll vote for getting paid what I was rostered.

Can it? Pay me, I agreed and made myself available - use me that day, sure, but - pay me.

RDC is horse****.

[dr dre]

Your members should have an idea of what your organisation is advocating for on their behalf in the room.

AIPA has been clear with the feedback from member surveys and what points members wanted addressed. They aren’t going communicate specifics to broadcast publicly during contract negotiations. That never happens during any form of contract negotiation. You’ll get to see the final product and if members don’t agree with it they have the chance to reject it and start again.

Plus with a change of leadership on the opposing side today it’ll be interesting if that reflects a change in company’s position.



Will you accept wage freezes in any form



I think it pretty obvious now that policy is practically no longer in effect, all other unions in the last 12 months have gotten pay rises be it a new allowance or a change in category bumping their pay rates up.

[ShandywithSugar]

Everything in the survey plus Winton threat gives and more.

[RealSatoshi]

...negotiations usually take about 12 months before the first vote is held.
Slow-walking negotiations...think if I've read that somewhere - What a Joke!

[josephfeatherweight]

Slow-walking negotiations...think if I've read that somewhere - What a Joke!
Someone wrote in another thread, and I agree with the sentiment, if you don't go hard and fast, the next recession/financial crisis will come around and you'll have much less bargaining power.
Don't let this drag on and don't accept mediocrity - for the benefit of ALL.

[DirectAnywhere]

I’d want to see:

- payment for reserve,

- min daily credit with elapsed time away credit, so I’m not sitting in Darwin on a 3 day trip with a redeye finish for 9 hours pay, or getting paid 4 hrs less than a 330 crew on a Bali,

- full credits when paxing - I’m at work I should be paid full $$. If the company has me paxing because they can’t build efficient patterns that’s their problem,

- some form of pay guarantee when flying is cancelled, especially day of ops, but without the ability for the company to infringe X days,

- some form of pay protection for when flying is lost next day because of delays,

- some form of duty pay credit on single day flying,

- additional $$ payment if agreeing to work on a day off. OL11 doesn’t cut it any more. Not worth it.

- some COMMITMENT (not the current aspirational statement) to more efficient rosters (see MDC above) so you’re not working 18 days out of 28. This would increase the number of AV days for all so top of the PSN doesn’t get smashed on their AV days because they’re the only crew that have any.

Fix those and you can probably just about leave the hourly rate where it is because the pay bump and lifestyle improvements from those measures would be significant.

Probably dreaming, but that’s about what I told the union in my survey.

[dr dre]

Slow-walking negotiations...think if I've read that somewhere - What a Joke!

The 2015 EA expired in August 2018 and it’s replacement didn’t come into effect for 18 months.

The 2007 EA expired in August 2012 and it’s replacement wasn’t finalised until 30 months later.

The 2002 EA expired in August 2005 and it’s replacement wasn’t finalised for at least 18 months.

Not saying that’s how it should be but history tells us contract negotiations aren’t a quick thing.

[ExtraShot]

I’d want to see:

- payment for reserve,

- min daily credit with elapsed time away credit, so I’m not sitting in Darwin on a 3 day trip with a redeye finish for 9 hours pay, or getting paid 4 hrs less than a 330 crew on a Bali,

- full credits when paxing - I’m at work I should be paid full $$. If the company has me paxing because they can’t build efficient patterns that’s their problem,

- some form of pay guarantee when flying is cancelled, especially day of ops, but without the ability for the company to infringe X days,

- some form of pay protection for when flying is lost next day because of delays,

- some form of duty pay credit on single day flying,

- additional $$ payment if agreeing to work on a day off. OL11 doesn’t cut it any more. Not worth it.

- some COMMITMENT (not the current aspirational statement) to more efficient rosters (see MDC above) so you’re not working 18 days out of 28. This would increase the number of AV days for all so top of the PSN doesn’t get smashed on their AV days because they’re the only crew that have any.

Fix those and you can probably just about leave the hourly rate where it is because the pay bump and lifestyle improvements from those measures would be significant.

Probably dreaming, but that’s about what I told the union in my survey.



Yep, 100%!

Youve pretty much listed my own ‘points that need fixing’ in the SHEA. Anecdotally only, but I’m yet to hear anyone not say that the above aren’t well overdue for correction.

No more mincing around the edge solutions like RDC, etc. Fix them and fix them properly.

[RealSatoshi]

The 2015 EA expired in August 2018 and it’s replacement didn’t come into effect for 18 months.

The 2007 EA expired in August 2012 and it’s replacement wasn’t finalised until 30 months later.

The 2002 EA expired in August 2005 and it’s replacement wasn’t finalised for at least 18 months.
Correct...that is exactly why this is the time to get things right and reset the 'incentivised' Tomorrow-is-Another-Day negotiation mantra.

Two parties arrive at the negotiation table:

Party one holds a pre-determined Log of Offers
Party two holds a pre-determined Log of Claims
Lock the doors and nobody leaves until an 'Agreement in Principle' is drafted - if either party is not in a position to make decisions based on what is required, then you very well have the wrong people at the table.
Unlock the door and call the next person in - now lock the door behind them.
Rinse and Repeat until the red moon rises - somewhere in the room someone will get serious.

[No upgrade]

I’d want to see:

or else what? Whinge again about no scope clause and your 20 year upgrade date?

You know the drill:
vote yes 2nd time round
take the little brown paper bag
get 3% wow
vote up another b scale
keep doing reserves unpaid
tell yourself your duty credit is not that bad
thank aipa crew for doing their very best

Yawn…..

[Lapon]

Or conversely go all in on a scope clause and plug the leaking bucket before spending another 20 years trying to fill it further?

[C441]

Whilst I'm not now, and never have been a shorthaul pilot, there is one item that, from my experience in assessing shorthaul fatigue reports, must be included in any new Agreement.

There must be an award based credit or mechanism that doesn't financially penalise and thus discourage a pilot from reporting "unfit for duty due fatigue". It would be in the best interest of both the pilot and the/any company to ensure that pilots aren't discouraged from reporting fatigued. We got close to this in about 2015 or 16 but it was rejected (apparently by someone above the CP) at the last minute.

[Lapon]

Whilst I'm not now, and never have been a shorthaul pilot, there is one item that, from my experience in assessing shorthaul fatigue reports, must be included in any new Agreement.

There must be an award based credit or mechanism that doesn't financially penalise and thus discourage a pilot from reporting "unfit for duty due fatigue". It would be in the best interest of both the pilot and the/any company to ensure that pilots aren't discouraged from reporting fatigued. We got close to this in about 2015 or 16 but it was rejected (apparently by someone above the CP) at the last minute.

A proper base salary that even the subsidiaries have would alleviate that.
Reliance on an hourly flight payment and operating above MGH plus allowances won't.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!

I’d hate to think that those negotiating on my behalf viewed it as a game…. Or worse, a gamble.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Only an idiot plays poker with their cards face up on the table!
​​​​
I’d hate to think that those negotiating on my behalf viewed it as a game…. Or worse, a gamble.

Metaphor - a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another.

You’re either stirring the pot, or thick as molasses.

[DirectAnywhere]

or else what? Whinge again about no scope clause and your 20 year upgrade date?

You know the drill:
vote yes 2nd time round
take the little brown paper bag
get 3% wow
vote up another b scale
keep doing reserves unpaid
tell yourself your duty credit is not that bad
thank aipa crew for doing their very best

Yawn…..

I’m unsure as to the reason for your belligerence.

Someone asked what the AIPA negotiators’ log of claims would be. I don’t have that info.

I attempted to provide the forum with a list of some things that, from my experience, I would like to see improved. They seem to be pretty common gripes amongst SH crew.

If the offer doesn’t meet my expectations, I’ll vote no.

If a majority of my colleagues vote yes, I’ll be bound to accept the outcome and will continue to use the provisions within the amended document to achieve what I consider an acceptable lifestyle and financial outcome.

Simple really.

[prickly]

Under the proposed "same job same pay" bill soon to be introduced, QF mainline pay was rumoured to drop to the lowest in the Qantas group, not sure which in the group, maybe EFA.
Maybe not since Alan is gone now, but Albo was going to make it happen for him.

[Transition Layer]

Under the proposed "same job same pay" bill soon to be introduced, QF mainline pay was rumoured to drop to the lowest in the Qantas group, not sure which in the group, maybe EFA.
Maybe not since Alan is gone now, but Albo was going to make it happen for him.

I think you’ll find the bill is actually about improving the conditions of those employed by labour hire companies, so that they get paid the same as those employed directly by the parent company. It’s not about reducing the pay of anyone.

Nice wind up though.

[VHOED191006]

I think you’ll find the bill is actually about improving the conditions of those employed by labour hire companies, so that they get paid the same as those employed directly by the parent company. It’s not about reducing the pay of anyone.

Nice wind up though.
So in theory, the NWK A320 guys should get paid roughly the same as the 737 guys?

[dr dre]

So in theory, the NWK A320 guys should get paid roughly the same as the 737 guys?

I think it means if you have two pilots working in the same job for the same company (ie both A320 Captains for the same entity for instance) and one happens to be a lower paid contractor then their pay should be level with the full time employee.

I don’t think it’ll affect pilots much, but may affect cabin crew as you can have multiple EAs and casual employees working on the same flight.

[Ranger290]

Anyone know if there’s been any meeting to happen on this front yet ?

[airdualbleedfault]

I think you’ll find the bill is actually about improving the conditions of those employed by labour hire companies, so that they get paid the same as those employed directly by the parent company. It’s not about reducing the pay of anyone.

Nice wind up though.
Yes and definitely not about improving the pay of white collar workers :bored:

[chazwazza14]

I think it means if you have two pilots working in the same job for the same company (ie both A320 Captains for the same entity for instance) and one happens to be a lower paid contractor then their pay should be level with the full time employee.

I don’t think it’ll affect pilots much, but may affect cabin crew as you can have multiple EAs and casual employees working on the same flight.

​​​​​​​What about Jetconnect pilots? Guess now they are on the same AOC, they definitely fall in to the same job same pay scenario…

[Lapon]

What about Jetconnect pilots? Guess now they are on the same AOC, they definitely fall in to the same job same pay scenario…

NZ labour laws apply to NZ crew irrespective of AOC.
Not that it makes a difference in this context, but I thought they still operated under thier own AOC but with VH aircraft?