Monarch 2

[jon01]

'We're working hard building a brand new Monarch just for you. Please stay tuned for updates.'


Monarch Airlines Limited (https://letsmonarch.co.uk)

[ATNotts]

The new name for Global Airlines?👿

[Rutan16]

The new name for Global Airlines?👿

Responsible persons of significant control don’t match at companies house

[ATNotts]

Responsible persons of significant control don’t match at companies house
I was being facetious!

In a similar vein, is one of the responsible people Jason Unsworth?

Seriously, neither of the directors appear to have been involved at director level previously.

[southamptonavgeek]

I am of the impression that it is an opportunist who has registered the name for future use rather than a serious airline?

[BA318]

LetsMonarch being a rip off of Flybe’s LetsFlybe and makes even less sense that the Flybe one.

[jethro15]

Keep an eye on A320 LY-SPC msn 00415. (Believed to be at Kemble, but confirmation would be appreciated). MAY! confirm or deny the above.

[SWBKCB]

Who owns the rights to the Monarch Logo?

[jethro15]

Who owns the rights to the Monarch Logo?
Meant to draw attention to that in my post.

[davidjohnson6]

The brands of bankrupt companies are usually best left to rest in piece. Former employees of said companies often have difficulty accepting this due to their emotional involvement and personal (possibly rose tinted) memories of the good old days.
Why should Monarch's brand be revived when so many other revivals have flopped ?

[jethro15]

davidjohnson6

Could not agree more. I had the pleasure of being involved with Monarch back in the ‘good old days’. They were good, but to my mind, they and Dan Air always lagged behind Britannia Airways.

It is now a completely new aviation environment in which many well established airlines are struggling and having to find new ways to adapt. Anyone thinking that they can enter the aviation industry by starting up a new airline, or basing a new venture on a fondly forgotten predecessor is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Oh and with reference to my previous post. I’ve just been advised that the proposed UK reg for LY-SPC is G-CRII which is a reference to our new King (Monarch, new King – is it just me?).

Could Monarch Airlines be about to re-appear? (ukaviation.news) (https://ukaviation.news/could-monarch-airlines-be-about-to-re-appear/)

As of this time, you’ll not be seeing this listed on my website, until proved wrong.

[TartinTon]

Registered office appears to be a Regus office in Capability Green at Luton Airport with the new "Chairman of the Board" appointed only yesterday! Bizarre

[laviation]

Keep an eye on A320 LY-SPC msn 00415. (Believed to be at Kemble, but confirmation would be appreciated). MAY! confirm or deny the above.
I am told LY-SPC was seized for unpaid fees and is indeed at Kemble

[cavokblues]

Unfortunately, most of these people trying to resurrect these famous old names just want to recreate the old airline and therefore recreate the exact same reasons they failed in the first place.

[southamptonavgeek]

I am told LY-SPC was seized for unpaid fees and is indeed at Kemble
Not a great start !!

[Back at NH]

LY-SPC has been at Kemble for 3.5 years and is 30 years old.

[speedbirdmgb]

Absolutely no chance that bird will be back in the air.

Should this ‘new’ Monarch go ahead, it’ll be interesting to see what they pick for the fleet. Have read they are targeting the “higher end of UK all inclusive travel” with a USP of “sustainable tourism”. Ain’t no way they’re doing that in 30 year old 320s!!!

[cavokblues]

If they want the higher end of tourism why do they want the Monarch brand to achieve that?

Monarch had a rich heritage and was taken to the cleaners by capitalists but with the upmost respect it's not a name or brand that was ever synonymous with 'higher end travel.'

[Dunhovrin]

The brands of bankrupt companies are usually best left to rest in piece
Shurely “rest in pieces”?

[JonnyH]

They’re going to be backed by an investor in Luxembourg, apparently.

[allan1987]

same investers as flybe 2.0?

more likely is, withvery similar website to flybe seen on waybackmachine and lets flybe as lets Monarch.

this does look like they are going to follow Jet2 model flights and holiday packages with Using A320's
not sure if they are going to have a Y+ section as in 8 or 12 seats as bit of extra leg room or middle seat at first 2 rows can be booked out not to be used

[pabloc]

I’ve still got my uniform 😂😂

[2Planks]

Pedant alert!

jethro shouldn’t that be G-CRIII?

[Albert Hall]

Madness. There needs to be a gap in the market which can be profitably served for any new airline to start. It's impossible to see where any such gap exists at the moment - just as with Flybe the sequel.

[jethro15]

Pedant alert!

jethro shouldn’t that be G-CRIII?
Exactly!

[VickersVicount]

https://airwaysmag.com/monarch-details-about-relaunch/

[cavokblues]

"Numerous opportunities yet to be filled....some of which cover Monarch's old markets."

So a focus on Egypt?

[southamptonavgeek]

I notice that there are at least 2-3 more social media accounts creating ripoffs and even direct copies of the "official" (dubious in itself) site. They have the hallmarks of a scam for certain, perhaps evidence that the name is best left to lie

[jethro15]

I just wonder if someone, somewhere is having a good belly laugh at the posts above (Mine included).

[VickersVicount]

"Numerous opportunities yet to be filled....some of which cover Monarch's old markets."

So a focus on Egypt?
Egypt apparently being one of their long and inefficient downfalls…

[laviation]

Gibraltar.

[pabloc]

The montegazza family might make an offer that won’t be refused 😂😂😉

[davidjohnson6]

I've been thinking about the possible revival of Monarch. It seemed pre 2017 to aim more at an older crowd... the brand didn't seem to be particularly youthful. Let's assume it can be ready to sell flights for autumn 2024... that,'s still 7 years after previous Monarch ceased operating. That's 7 years out of a lifetime... some of whom will have either passed away or are now too frail to be flying. Of the remaining people, many will have simply forgotten, or at best have only a vague recollection of, the brand.

Does reviving the Monarch name really add that much value to a new business ?

[cavokblues]

Indeed. To be honest, if the product is right and you're on top of the business side of things the name is immaterial. There is no value, IMO, in resurrecting these failed old brands. You can call it probably anything you want. Afterall, one of the biggest airlines in Europe is named after the surname of the founder.

Any new airline attracts PR and press so it's not as though they're doing it for that reason. And people haven't been exactly been hanging around waiting for the Monarch name to return to fly again....

[SWBKCB]

What's the downside to doing it? Gives you a readymade hook to hang things on, so saves that development activity.

The Airways article talks about 15 A.320's - any link to Ascend, the ACMI operator starting a UK arm announced recently?

[cavokblues]

I guess there isn't a downside but I don't know why you would want to associate with a brand that has been failed for 6 years or so.

Just be your own people, forge your own identity.

Has a resurrected brand ever succeeded?

[BA318]

What's the downside to doing it? Gives you a readymade hook to hang things on, so saves that development activity.

The Airways article talks about 15 A.320's - any link to Ascend, the ACMI operator starting a UK arm announced recently?

The downside is some people already have bad memories associated with the name. Just on Facebook posts about this there are comments like “remember when they cancelled our flight?”.

[SWBKCB]

Negative comments on the internet, surely not? How do Ryanair survive?

[Asturias56]

By being cheaper AND better run

[BA318]

Negative comments on the internet, surely not? How do Ryanair survive?

It's not just the negative comments. It's those people having that memory means they are less likely to book. Ryanair are cheap and well run. A bit of an exception in the market place really. This will end the same way as Flybe.

[SWBKCB]

It's not just the negative comments. It's those people having that memory means they are less likely to book. Ryanair are cheap and well run. A bit of an exception in the market place really. This will end the same way as Flybe.

Are they? Get the product right and they will.

There will also be the majority of happy customers where the name will have good connotations - they just don't tell the world about it

It might well fail, but it won't be because o the name.

[CW247]

Someone on LinkedIn spotted that the Favicon (the website associated icon that shows up when you had to favorites) contained the FlyBe logo.
What's going on here? Of the shelf airline resurrection services?

[Beatts]

https://airwaysmag.com/monarch-details-about-relaunch/

Investment from both European Union and United Kingdom,
Will be an accompanying Holidays venture,
Looking to initially acquire 15 A320 through a UK based company,
Intended bases will be very similar to previous.

[TartinTon]

Be interesting if they think they can just waltz back into previous bases. LGW/BHX/MAN and LTN are all severely more slot constrained in peak hours now than they were previously. It took Monarch many, many years to build up the slot portfolio that they had and will take a similar length of time to get back to those levels if they can even get in at the required times to start with. Mere details that the founders tend to overlook.....

[Mr Jetlag]

The chairman's LinkedIn profile says about his Monarch role: "Successfully led takeover of company by private equity following the exit of previous shareholders in July 2023."

Er... no, not really. This makes it sound like a going concern rather than a fire sale of assets following bankruptcy. The "takeover" seems only to have been of the brand, not of any functioning company. (The chairman's profile also describes him as "Leading a new Monarch to provenance" - in the words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means.")

I get from the breathless Airways article that it is early days, that there has been no discussion with the CAA yet about an AOC (which makes a Summer 2024 start rather challenging), no engagement with airports, and no substantive discussions on fleet (other than perhaps identifying a UK broker who can go and look for aircraft).

I'm not automatically negative about startups - I'm all in favour of entrepreneurs finding gaps in the market and launching new, well-thought-out, airlines to fill those gaps (which may or may not succeed, even with good planning and execution - it's a brutally tough business). But where's the gap here to start with? What can a new startup do that the existing players (LCCs, leisure carriers, or wet-lease providers) can't do between them, especially as aircraft lease rates are no longer as low as they were a couple of years ago? And where are the slots coming from? Luton is basically full these days.

This one remains filed under "Flights of Fancy".

[pabely]

Which UK based companies would do A320s? Most are based in Ireland or Malta for tax reasons?
As for slots, no chance unless you are going to buy them at the going rate. Perhaps they will be Southend's saviour!?

[TheSpiddalKid]

Which UK-based companies would do A320s? Most are based in Ireland or Malta for tax reasons?
As for slots, no chance unless you are going to buy them at the going rate. Perhaps they will be Southend's saviour!?

Maybe they could also look to get slots at Doncaster, Prestwick, Carlisle and Teeside as well.

[davidjpowell]

Be interesting if they think they can just waltz back into previous bases. LGW/BHX/MAN and LTN are all severely more slot constrained in peak hours now than they were previously. It took Monarch many, many years to build up the slot portfolio that they had and will take a similar length of time to get back to those levels if they can even get in at the required times to start with. Mere details that the founders tend to overlook.....

I'm sure there will be a mechanic on here shortly welcoming them to DSA with open arms...

Having said that one of these comebacks must surely succeed at some point. Perhaps this will be the one.

[OutsideCAS]

The Airways article talks about 15 A.320's - any link to Ascend, the ACMI operator starting a UK arm announced recently?
​​​​​​​Looking to initially acquire 15 A320 through a UK based company

Look/make offer to buy a company operating that number of Airbus aircraft? although in the UK I can think of one only ACMI operator.

[HOVIS]

https://airwaysmag.com/monarch-details-about-relaunch/

Investment from both European Union and United Kingdom,
Will be an accompanying Holidays venture,
Looking to initially acquire 15 A320 through a UK based company,
Intended bases will be very similar to previous.


Is this the sort of start up that the PM thinks is a great opportunity to invest 5% of my pension fund I wonder? 🤔

[PAXboy]

Far too many factors against them. Another, small one, is the pressure in Europe to swap short haul for train. Any carrier who gives up those routes has slots, a/c and crews ready for new destinations. Further, Europe and UK in particular are going to have a very tough 5/10 years after Covid and other financial shocks, many countries are likely to go into recession.

[USERNAME_]

Someone on LinkedIn spotted that the Favicon (the website associated icon that shows up when you had to favorites) contained the FlyBe logo.
What's going on here? Of the shelf airline resurrection services?

You’re right, the icon is Flybe I’d you search them in google.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1284x1531/3cf34b2f_6f97_42a2_a215_f704040b0786_8458fe4d07c44187b34439a 9a1017ec97ab8abb2.jpeg

[Asturias56]

I see The Times has ripped off the discussion on here again to print an article on M2

[Airbanda]

Too many issues for this to have much chance of success.

The market for UK origin leisure flights, with or without an associated hotel etc package is well served by existing operators. Jet 2 and TUI have packages sewn up with Easy and Ryanair focussed more on seat only and self assembly holidays.

How many UK airports can sustain another base with aircraft on the ground ready for a departure at the sort of time modern utilisation regimes demand? Southend and Teesside might have but EMA, BHX, MAN LBA etc are already rammed. Even if all the other ducks could be lined up I don't see this operation being enough to 'de mothball' Doncaster.

Any goodwill associated with the Monarch name is pretty much gone. Another year or two to get it going and, for the under thirties it's go no more recognition than a dozen other airlines that closed or merged since Y2K.

If, and it's a big if, it could find a niche market and/or a USP then maybe, from small beginnings, it could move on to grow but I'm not holding my breath, never mind investing.

[Dave Gittins]

Actually, easyJet are already advertising like mad at Gatwick for their package holidays as they try and tap that market. Holidays 2023 / 2024 | easyJet holidays (https://www.easyjet.com/en/holidays)

[Uplinker]

Monarch were good in their time, but when the money flow from "the family" stopped, the company went downhill within a few years.

But even before that, the new easyJet started a service from Luton - Monarch's head office base - to Glasgow and Edinburgh; something that Monarch could have done, along with embracing the internet for ticket sales and a radical ticket pricing structure. But they didn't, until it was too late. And the least said about their scruffy last CEO the better......*

A company called Silver Jet tried offering a high class service from Luton to New York, I think, with good leg room and comfort etc. But it didn't work, so I wouldn't hold out much hope for a Monarch #2 offering a similar service.

* He pops up on the radio now and then as an "airline expert". Ha ha ha.

[Cuillin Hills]

Monarch were good in their time, but when the money flow from "the family" stopped, the company went downhill within a few years.


​​​​​​….. it would be more accurate to say that the money flow went from Monarch Airlines to the ‘family’ - that was a major reason why the Company went downhill. All take and no investment by the Mantegazzas.

EU261 payments didn’t help either whilst trying to operate on schedule with an ageing, disparate aircraft fleet.

Monarch Mk2 is a non-starter - bit like that bloke that thinks that he can operate tired, old A380s across the Atlantic.

[MKY661]

Would be great if it does indeed start up again and it gets back to the level it once was (and it's profitable unlike the last couple of years of the predecessor) but I'm not overly optimistic that it'll get off the ground unfortunately. The market is very saturated now as well, with pretty much all their previous routes being taken over by other carriers. Would love to be proved wrong though.

[inOban]

Flybe v2 was always a flightless bird because there was no gap in the market for it to fill; Loganair, with its track record over many years, and underpinned by its Scottish operations (many PSO supported) were operating all the viable routes.

But Monarch v2 is conceivable, but only just. At present jet2 and TUI offer inclusive packages, including to 4/5* accommodation, but the flights are in economy with all that that entails in terms of seat pitch, luggage allowance etc. Maybe the promoters of new Monarch believe that there is a market for similar upmarket accommodation but using aircraft fitted out to a higher standard, premium economy or better, with fewer seats, more free luggage, enhanced food offer etc. Perhaps even lounge access. I'm sure some people would pay for this, but enough?

[commit aviation]

Maybe not just specific to a potential new entrant but most major airports must be maxing out on night movements I would have thought.
Those longer flights to destinations in the eastern Med & Egypt rarely return before 23:00. If you can't fly a decent number of hours per day, you won't be able to compete with the incumbents who already hold the prize night slots.

[Nil by mouth]

Gibraltar.
Monarch's very expensive wheelbarrow landing :oh:
And now almost daily NATS problems, so not a viable option?

[Flightrider]

Monarch 1 took a row of seats out of the A320s (down to 174) and the A321s (down to 214) to provide six rows with extra legroom at the front of the cabin, on the logic that the premium from 36 extra legroom seats would exceed the marginal revenue from the last six seats on the 80% of flights on which they were sold. Delightful though it was on the few occasions when I used it, it ultimately didn't work and they put the seats back in to a high density config again. The premium leisure market might have changed since that experiment, but it would be a bold effort to try that again - just as you don't see American rushing to repeat MRTC (More Room Through Coach) on the widebodies of the same era.

Beyond possibly Gibraltar - which can't keep a fleet of 15 x A320s occupied - I'm struggling to see where any market gap is here. Go into the smaller regionals where there is no Jet2 from the likes of PMI, ALC etc? Spread very thinly and it's a tough way to make a living - I know Monarch 1 looked at that and dismissed it fairly quickly as a tough gig, after they'd flown Blackpool, Aberdeen and others besides. Try to "own" a new destination like Gazipasa/Alanya whch is widely served from Europe but not flown from the UK? Probably won't have it ti yourself for very long. With easyJet piling capacity into the holiday market through a total inability to think creatively in that airline, the likes of Egypt and Tunisia have more than enough capacity.

Ultimately if a new start-up meets the licensing criteria including providing evidence of sufficient backing to meet its business plan, the CAA can't refuse to give it a licence even if they think it's bonkers. [Silverjet being a case in point.] You therefore can't say this will never start - it might. But the odds are firmly stacked against it having any longevity, in my view.

[TartinTon]

[QUOTE=Flightrider;11489553]Monarch 1 took a row of seats out of the A320s (down to 174) and the A321s (down to 214) to provide six rows with extra legroom at the front of the cabin, on the logic that the premium from 36 extra legroom seats would exceed the marginal revenue from the last six seats on the 80% of flights on which they were sold. Delightful though it was on the few occasions when I used it, it ultimately didn't work and they put the seats back in to a high density config again.

Sorry but that's just not true. Monarch maintained the extra legroom seats right the way through and they were extremely popular especially on the longer sectors that they operated (and the marginal revenue they generated far exceeded the 6 seats lost). A fact, not conjecture.

[Flightrider]

TT, happy to stand corrected - although I would say that on the last flights I did with Monarch, the service was not available. Was it not done on later additions to the fleet? I recall quite clearly thinking that it was a shame it wasn’t offered - it was one of few (perhaps the only) USP Monarch had.

[DaveReidUK]

Someone on LinkedIn spotted that the Favicon (the website associated icon that shows up when you had to favorites) contained the FlyBe logo.

If so, it's now been fixed:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/200x200/monarch_favicon_bd22f53d31c742c34d9e342ea465229b77be66b2.png

favicon.png (200×200) (letsmonarch.co.uk) (https://letsmonarch.co.uk/index_files/favicon.png)

[biddedout]

So if there is a Luxembourg investor, did he buy or retain the Airline in a box package from the wreckage of Flybe 2? Website, safety system, engineering records etc so that they have a basic platform from which to start off the CAA applications.
I believe they spent quite a few million getting the new Flybe website up and running so it makes sense to keep it ticking over ready for a few cosmetic changes.

The shutdown of Flybe 2 appears to have been well managed (secretly in cooperation with the administrators) with all bills paid. All very clever if this is what they are doing but beware any future employees, Flybe 2 were still taking on staff, encouraging people to leave other jobs and move days before the shutdown despite the fact that the Board had been working on the shutdown plan for six months. Those staff are still waiting to be paid what they are owed.

[toledoashley]

Travel Gossip (new travel trade website), has suggested the OTA operation could be up and running before Christmas.

[Asturias56]

" Flybe 2 were still taking on staff, encouraging people to leave other jobs and move days before the shutdown despite the fact that the Board had been working on the shutdown plan for six months."

that's normal when a business is about to go under. They hope for a saviour but they know that even a business in good shape will lose suppliers and customers overnight if a rumour starts that they are thinking of closing.

[SWBKCB]

So if there is a Luxembourg investor, did he buy or retain the Airline in a box package from the wreckage of Flybe 2? Website, safety system, engineering records etc so that they have a basic platform from which to start off the CAA applications.
I believe they spent quite a few million getting the new Flybe website up and running so it makes sense to keep it ticking over ready for a few cosmetic changes.

The shutdown of Flybe 2 appears to have been well managed (secretly in cooperation with the administrators) with all bills paid. All very clever if this is what they are doing but beware any future employees, Flybe 2 were still taking on staff, encouraging people to leave other jobs and move days before the shutdown despite the fact that the Board had been working on the shutdown plan for six months. Those staff are still waiting to be paid what they are owed.

"with all bills paid" "Those staff are still waiting to be paid what they are owed" - am I missing something here?

[TartinTon]

[QUOTE=The shutdown of Flybe 2 appears to have been well managed (secretly in cooperation with the administrators) with all bills paid. All very clever if this is what they are doing but beware any future employees, Flybe 2 were still taking on staff, encouraging people to leave other jobs and move days before the shutdown despite the fact that the Board had been working on the shutdown plan for six months. Those staff are still waiting to be paid what they are owed.[/QUOTE]

All Flybe staff were paid for the days they worked right up until the end. One of the few bits they did correctly.

[TartinTon]

Flightrider....I can't comment for the one 737 they received but certainly all the 320/321 aircraft had the extra legroom product.

[biddedout]

"with all bills paid" "Those staff are still waiting to be paid what they are owed" - am I missing something here?
Pay in lieu of notice and any other bits claimed as preferential creditors.

[G-AZUK]

Reports this morning that these people dont even own the M Brand or Logo.

looks more and more like a Garden Shed airline

[ATNotts]

Reports this morning that these people dont even own the M Brand or Logo.

looks more and more like a Garden Shed airline

Looking even more like an "Unsworth enterprise"!

Using what I imagine remains a trade mark could get them into a lot of hot water with the actual owners if they indeed haven't bought the rights to use it.

[PAXboy]

In passing, it is worth saying that American did put all the seats back in because they learnt that folks don't want to pay the real cost of flying and would rather be cramped.

[Flightrider]

OK so a bit of digging on the Intellectual Property Office website says that all roads lead back to We Love Holidays Limited, which owns the original Monarch trademarks (for class 39, transportation) and has a pending application registered yesterday for a new category of Monarch trademarks as well. It looks to have some overseas European trading companies and the ultimate controlling party of the company is listed as Livingbridge, which is one of the larger UK venture capital / private equity companies specialising in mid-market companies. With the IPO registration yesterday, it can only be this company behind the new Monarch venture. Presumably it is getting squeezed out on supply of air seats for dynamic packages by easyJet doing its own thing and so if it is to continue making a solid set of profits (last year's £35m profit before tax on a turnover of £135m is pretty decent for the travel sector) then it needs seat supply. They've £50m in the bank (most of which looks to be their own money as opposed to customer deposits) and I'd presume access to more capital through their venture capital shareholder. Looks credible from where I sit.

[cavokblues]

Interesting dig, thanks for sharing, certainly feels more feasible.

From looking at their accounts they state how they want to win further UK market share and expand into the German market. They also cite how their policy of allowing free cancellation is a risk as they pay for the airline seats up front and may not always recover that money....

One thing I am still confused about - why do they need the Monarch brand? Just start your own airline. 'We Love Holidays Airways' on the side of a fuselage isn't any less cheesy than 'Jet2Holidays' and would certainly help you achieve more brand awareness and market share....not sure people would necessarily join the dots with Monarch being associated with them.

[samj]

As long as they bring back A330's I am all for it.. Be interesting to see what happens here. Can't imagine there being any gap in the market at the moment really. Unless they went in cheap and undercut others.

[laviation]

There is a significant long haul gap at MAN for the old TCX routes.

[chinapattern]

There is a significant long haul gap at MAN for the old TCX routes.

Monarch gave up long haul well before they went bump, restarting such routes would be a recipe for disaster.

TCX went bump too and had a significant long haul presence at MAN - do you not see the pattern?

[flybar]

Interesting dig, thanks for sharing, certainly feels more feasible.

From looking at their accounts they state how they want to win further UK market share and expand into the German market. They also cite how their policy of allowing free cancellation is a risk as they pay for the airline seats up front and may not always recover that money....

One thing I am still confused about - why do they need the Monarch brand? Just start your own airline. 'We Love Holidays Airways' on the side of a fuselage isn't any less cheesy than 'Jet2Holidays' and would certainly help you achieve more brand awareness and market share....not sure people would necessarily join the dots with Monarch being associated with them.

The trade as 'Love Holidays' in the UK. Make extensive use of Ryanair & Jet2 as their airlines of choice!

[AirportPlanner1]

Even if the owners are credible and there is a genuine gap in the market, where could they actually fly from? Certainly in the London area the only realistic option for sufficient slots and overnight stands would be SEN, is MAN also full? But then SEN has other constraints which aren’t helpful to this type of operation, assuming they’d want longer sectors to Greece, Canaries etc.

[pabely]

The venture must be from someone with hard data rather than an idea on the back of a fag packet.
ex TUI or Jet2 executives would have that as well as booking engine sites so Love Holidays would add up. Strong up sale trends which Ryanair & Easyjet can't offer might be the driver here.

[cavokblues]

From a brief look at their website and a few dummy bookings to holidays in Turkey they seem to even offer flights on Pegasus with a stop and change of aircraft en route. That's far from ideal for the UK package holiday market.

However, Love holidays currently t revenue is £135,000,000. What's the average cost of a UK holiday per household, £2-3k?

Say an average family of 4, that's less than 200k pax per year. That's not many bums on seats to operate an airline with so seems they must have exponential growth plans. (Unless I've massively messed up my maths?)

[Derry321]

If it is, as it seems, Love Holidays behind this then my expectation is that this 'could' actually get off the ground

They, together with their competitor On The Beach, are amongst the largest licenced UK operators not to have their own in-house metal and are therefore at the mercy of the yield and capacity of other carriers - i.e. Ryanair, Jet2 and easyJet who in the case of Ryanair particularly, publicly state they do not want the business anyway. Having their own airline in-house would make perfect sense, particularly if not directly aligned to their main tour operator brand, therefore allowing them to sell to other operators and direct to consumer (perhaps the thinking of re-launching as a familiar name) as well as via their own channels.

Obviously a lot of practical considerations, particularly around slots (although from someone who has some experience in this area in past roles, you would be amazed at what airports will 'find' for well backed new entrants) but in terms of them being able to put bums on seats, I wouldn't be too concerned about that

[Asturias56]

"Having their own airline in-house would make perfect sense, "

history suggests that is not always the case

[AP1995]

Reported elsewhere Love Holidays could be soon be going up on the market: Loveholidays tipped for up to £1bn valuation with potential sale
https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/tourism/loveholidays-tipped-for-up-to-1bn-valuation-with-potential-sale

[Derry321]

Agreed - Globespan, Unijet and even Cooks (but their issues went far beyond the airline) plus many more I have had the pleasure or displeasure of working with over the years

However the Package IT market has changed significantly since Covid pushing people towards financially protected and one stop shop bookings. They have some pretty robust tech, a very strong product team with direct accommodation contracting throughout Europe, a known brand in the budget bucket and spade end of the market and very clever USP's (particularly around cancellations/amendments). Whilst I am not party to the exact information, I believe from previous conversations they have a Northern/Scottish tilt to their overall demographic too.

I am not doubting there are huge risks, but I do know that their ability to achieve their stated growth plans utilising solely third party carriers is going to be difficult

[a5in_the_sim]

Isn’t Monarch 2 the airline within an airline that is the Jet2 Airbus fleet?

[Flightrider]

Isn’t Monarch 2 the airline within an airline that is the Jet2 Airbus fleet?

No, that's Thomas Cook :rolleyes:

[aerotech07]

From a brief look at their website and a few dummy bookings to holidays in Turkey they seem to even offer flights on Pegasus with a stop and change of aircraft en route. That's far from ideal for the UK package holiday market.

However, Love holidays currently t revenue is £135,000,000. What's the average cost of a UK holiday per household, £2-3k?

Say an average family of 4, that's less than 200k pax per year. That's not many bums on seats to operate an airline with so seems they must have exponential growth plans. (Unless I've massively messed up my maths?)

LoveHolidays are ATOL bonded for 2.6 million pax this year.

[laviation]

Monarch gave up long haul well before they went bump, restarting such routes would be a recipe for disaster.

TCX went bump too and had a significant long haul presence at MAN - do you not see the pattern?

The US routes with TCX performed very well for the most part. Not the wing of TCX that failed

[chinapattern]

The US routes with TCX performed very well for the most part. Not the wing of TCX that failed

If they performed as well as claimed then why did VS drop LAX, SFO and BOS? If the demand was there and with TCX gone they should have been onto a winner. Yet they have shown zero interest in bringing them back. The markets have undeniably changed in recent years so IMHO the so called gap in the market really isn’t as big as some think it is. Capacity on LAS when that returns will be way down on what it used to be.

[southamptonavgeek]

The Love Holidays theory would tie in with the fact that Monarch Holidays Limited which I assume had to be acquired simultaneously has just applied for dissolution on Companies House but the airline remains "trading".

[OzzyOzBorn]

If they performed as well as claimed then why did VS drop LAX, SFO and BOS?

Off topic, but there were a couple of reasons for this and they were not demand-led. Firstly, post-covid, VIR urgently needed to occupy and safeguard their LHR slot haul. With a significantly reduced fleet and fewer staff available to do this, MAN paid the price. Keep in mind too that the main sub-fleets permanently withdrawn as part of the existential covid survival effort were the Boeing 747-400's and the A330-200's ... ie. the mainstay of the MAN-based fleet. This meant that a good proportion of the MAN-based crews who hadn't already left the company required retraining onto new types. All time-consuming and expensive.

There is a long history of MAN losing services when 'Opportunity Heathrow' needs a leg-up. Sad but true, and unlikely to change any time soon. However, it is fair to say that pre-covid performance of MAN's transatlantic portfolio was not the determining issue here. Customer demand at the MAN operation was just fine.

[toledoashley]

OK so a bit of digging on the Intellectual Property Office website says that all roads lead back to We Love Holidays Limited, which owns the original Monarch trademarks (for class 39, transportation) and has a pending application registered yesterday for a new category of Monarch trademarks as well. It looks to have some overseas European trading companies and the ultimate controlling party of the company is listed as Livingbridge, which is one of the larger UK venture capital / private equity companies specialising in mid-market companies. With the IPO registration yesterday, it can only be this company behind the new Monarch venture. Presumably it is getting squeezed out on supply of air seats for dynamic packages by easyJet doing its own thing and so if it is to continue making a solid set of profits (last year's £35m profit before tax on a turnover of £135m is pretty decent for the travel sector) then it needs seat supply. They've £50m in the bank (most of which looks to be their own money as opposed to customer deposits) and I'd presume access to more capital through their venture capital shareholder. Looks credible from where I sit.

I’m assuming it could also be linked to the Ryanair/OTA ‘battle’ - https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/ryanair-accuses-otas-of-malpractice-and-urges-customers-book-direct, although there are some who just think it’s FR positioning for more of their business!

Although it’s not quite the same as having your own airline - On The Beach did their own charters to Turkey, as there wasn’t enough seats for them to control. It certainly seems like one way where they can control pricing, so they are not priced out.

[laviation]

If they performed as well as claimed then why did VS drop LAX, SFO and BOS? If the demand was there and with TCX gone they should have been onto a winner. Yet they have shown zero interest in bringing them back. The markets have undeniably changed in recent years so IMHO the so called gap in the market really isn’t as big as some think it is. Capacity on LAS when that returns will be way down on what it used to be.

I agree completely with what Ozzy said.

Virgin once LAS restarts should actually be around the same capacity they offered pre-Covid.

You do ignore the simple facts

United had upgauged MAN cumulating in a daily 764 - rumours of ORD at the time too

Delta were to introduce daily BOS
Virgin had loaded 6x weekly LAS, 11x weekly JFK and some other increases pre-Covid

Virgin had planned a network hub for MAN and there was even rumours of a proper BA base. This was all after the Thomas Cook collapse. Aint a MAN problem

[Flightrider]

MAN transatlantics were heavily MAN-point of sale, where the markets performing well this year (EDI & LON) are more biased towards inbound traffic.

Just in case you missed it, the exchange rate was up in the 1.40s for the early part of 2018 and tanked towards the end of the year and has since been as low as 1.06. For most of this year, it's holding in the 1.20s. This strongly favours incoming travel to the UK rather than outbound travel - so MAN can be expected to do poorly in relation to EDI and LON on transatlantics. If the exchange rate swings back the other way, MAN will become more attractive and no doubt there will be some capacity shift in its favour.

[CabinCrewe]

again OT, but doubt BA Mainline were ever going near MAN longhaul, rumours or not.
Always swings and roundabouts, the pendulum will swing away from inbound exchange rates, and perhaps sooner than some think…

[BHX5DME]

Thought this was the Monarch thread ?

[brian_dromey]

again OT, but doubt BA Mainline were ever going near MAN longhaul, rumours or not.
Always swings and roundabouts, the pendulum will swing away from inbound exchange rates, and perhaps sooner than some think…

The EI/EG operation at MAN functions as a de-facto BA base. They are part of the “metal-neutral” BA/IAG transatlantic JV and rely heavily on BA Holidays sales, I believe.

[CabinCrewe]

The EI/EG operation at MAN functions as a de-facto BA base. They are part of the “metal-neutral” BA/IAG transatlantic JV and rely heavily on BA Holidays sales, I believe.
The original rumour was mainline BA 777 or even Airbus A32x neos(!) however…

[BA318]

The original rumour was mainline BA 777 or even Airbus A32x neos(!) however…

even Gatwick has had to fight to get used A320s let alone neos. No chance they were going to invest in a new fleet for a completely unproven base.

[pabely]

Thought this was the Monarch thread ?
I agree, how come this has turned into another MAN fan debate? Get over it, US is a weak market currently for UK leisure and nothing to do with a new Monarch.
As stated here, looking for Luton base https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12436421/Monarch-Airlines-flights-Gibraltar-North-Africa-does-not-logo-trademark.html subject to that airports 18m pax limit being increased.

[ATNotts]

I agree, how come this has turned into another MAN fan debate? Get over it, US is a weak market currently for UK leisure and nothing to do with a new Monarch.
As stated here, looking for Luton base https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12436421/Monarch-Airlines-flights-Gibraltar-North-Africa-does-not-logo-trademark.html subject to that airports 18m pax limit being increased.
Couldn't agree more!

Back on topic, since the new company owns the rights to neither the trading name nor the logo one asks why either are being used on a website?

[Cazza_fly]

Couldn't agree more!

Back on topic, since the new company owns the rights to neither the trading name nor the logo one asks why either are being used on a website?

If correct, who does own it?

[TartinTon]

We Love Holidays bought them from the administrators in 2018 apparently

[northernaviation]

We Love Holidays bought them from the administrators in 2018 apparently

that explains why monarch.co.uk redirects to loveholidays 😃

[Mayfield62]

To put the record straight. BA Holidays hardly sell the Aer Lingus product from Manchester and the services are not reliant on them.

[TartinTon]

To put the record straight. BA Holidays hardly sell the Aer Lingus product from Manchester and the services are not reliant on them.

No-one here cares. Off to the MAN or BA threads with you!

[northernaviation]

Something I just realised - @letsmonarch Instagram account and website now have a new logo

perhaps they’re still in discussions over use of the logo or something

although I feel I’ve seen that logo before somewhere

[MKY661]

The supposed New Livery:
https://twitter.com/simple_flying/status/1696281809217003896

[cavokblues]

Doing away with the yellow and crown? What's the point again of resurrecting this brand to help a holiday company with a completely different name increase market share?

[GayFriendly]

Aside from the yellow wingtip and logo, isn't this livery the very same as Flybe MK2? Look how long that lasted.....

[hobbit1983]

The supposed New Livery:
https://twitter.com/simple_flying/status/1696281809217003896

I think this is all very well and good, but I'd be much more impressed with an AOC. Best of luck them tho.

[TartinTon]

Messing around with colour schemes and fonts is fine if it's just a school project. I'd be far more impressed if they started announcing aircraft deliveries / AOC progress / competant appointments from people who actually knew how to run an airline etc etc

[southamptonavgeek]

Messing around with colour schemes and fonts is fine if it's just a school project. I'd be far more impressed if they started announcing aircraft deliveries / AOC progress / competant appointments from people who actually knew how to run an airline etc etc
We may soon get our wish if the attention from Loveholidays on their "reveal" post has anything to do with the ownership status

[CabinCrewe]

there was a ‘mistake’ paint job on a real Monarch A320 in the wrong shade of purple which looks almost identical to this (minus crown logo).

[BA318]

https://letsmonarch.co.uk/"A statement from our Board:It is with immense regret that we announce today that we have been forced to put the brakes on our process to relaunch Monarch. This is not a decision that we have taken lightly, however since taking over the business two weeks ago we have drawn close to exhausted the start-up funding provided to us far more rapidly than anticipated.

We have been seeking alternative routes, such as partial divestment of share capital, and will continue to do so, however at the current stage there is no practical option to move forward in the immediate future.

The Board
31st August 2023"

[Atlantic Explorer]

https://letsmonarch.co.uk/"A statement from our Board:It is with immense regret that we announce today that we have been forced to put the brakes on our process to relaunch Monarch. This is not a decision that we have taken lightly, however since taking over the business two weeks ago we have drawn close to exhausted the start-up funding provided to us far more rapidly than anticipated.

We have been seeking alternative routes, such as partial divestment of share capital, and will continue to do so, however at the current stage there is no practical option to move forward in the immediate future.

The Board
31st August 2023"

Well that didn’t last long! A timely reminder of the intense financial challenges facing new start ups.

[TartinTon]

All those drawings must have been expensive! Bunch of clowns

[dc9-32]

2 weeks of trying sums it up......

Must have been thought up during a 2 week holiday and now back home, "lets give this a miss"........

[Derry321]

'two weeks ago we have drawn close to exhausted the start-up funding provided to us far more rapidly than anticipated'

Not even correctly worded!! Exhausting surely (though in two weeks not sure you could break much of a sweat!)

[cavokblues]

If 'Love Holidays' are behind this I'm surprised there weren't more realistic time frames and funding.

All seems a bit strange. If the first two weeks were all too much for you perhaps you went into this more than a little bit wet behind the ear.

[southamptonavgeek]

'two weeks ago we have drawn close to exhausted the start-up funding provided to us far more rapidly than anticipated'

Not even correctly worded!! Exhausting surely (though in two weeks not sure you could break much of a sweat!)
EDIT -- I have gone madder with age!!
EDIT AGAIN -- website now reworded to say "temporarily suspended"?

[MKY661]

In case anyone didn’t see this, this was posted only yesterday on their socials (cropped due to file size limit). I believe they announced the suspension before this poll even finished:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/612x1088/img_9171_56051ac31237dd02e04c27ad0223343ee7f536f2.jpeg

[sunshine79]

Their X and insta pages no longer exist even though they said the original post is incorrect and still plan on operating summer 2024.

[aerotech07]

Has to have been some sort of elaborate hoax? Appeared out of nowhere 2 weeks ago much to the surprise of everyone in the industry (ie. no rumours) then has gone again already.

Gained a little bit of traction with a speculated connection to Love Holidays as they actually hold the old name? (2+ 2= 5)

The new brand and livery renderings could have been knocked up in an hour.

[GayFriendly]

Blimey, didn't even last as long as Liz Truss......what will they try to resurrect from the dead next? Airtours? JMC? Dan Air?

[Harold77]

On off, on off shake it all about. It's back on again.

[ATNotts]

Blimey, didn't even last as long as Liz Truss......what will they try to resurrect from the dead next? Airtours? JMC? Dan Air?

British Eagle please!!!

[Back at NH]

Run out of money already before they’ve spent any?

[southamptonavgeek]

If it was ever happening, it isn't now. Roll on the next fiasco! (Global?)

[BHX5DME]

Back on !!https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1696211628545449984/RMCJGPq-_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/letsmonarch)
Monarch (https://twitter.com/letsmonarch)
@letsmonarch (https://twitter.com/letsmonarch)
We have been approached with new options to continue launching Monarch. We hope to bring more positive news to you shortly. Monarch's Chairman is to step down and be replaced with immediate effect. We are working tirelessly and will continue to do so.
5:20 PM · Aug 31, 2023
·
2,950
Views

[inOban]

A lot of business deals etc were done on the basis of low interest rates. Now it's clear that those days are gone and rates are likely to remain realistic, then a lot of business plans fall apart.

I admire the fact that they paused before they had spent significant amounts.

[jethro15]

Anyone remember the UK children's tv programme 'Jakanory' ?

I'll tell you a story
About Jack a Nory,
And now my story's begun;
I'll tell you another
Of Jack and his brother,
And now my story is done.

[Flightrider]

This is just completely bizarre.

What have Love Holidays got to say about this - who own the Monarch trademarks and who started a process to register some additional Monarch trademarks more less than two weeks ago? The timing of that, as posted earlier, tied in to the start of "noise" about Monarch 2.0 and I'm finding it difficult to believe that they are not involved somehow.

[TartinTon]

Whole thing looks like a scam/school project.

This was unearthed by Easyjet's Social Media Manager (ex-Monarch)

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7103032538729693184/

[BA318]

This is just completely bizarre.

What have Love Holidays got to say about this - who own the Monarch trademarks and who started a process to register some additional Monarch trademarks more less than two weeks ago? The timing of that, as posted earlier, tied in to the start of "noise" about Monarch 2.0 and I'm finding it difficult to believe that they are not involved somehow.

Indeed. They even posted comments on the Monarch Instagram.

I said this would end like Flybe. Luckily it happened even quicker.

[jethro15]

Time to close and delete the thread?

[Mcvicker03]

Sadly I cannot access the website.Whether it’s my internet or they have closed the website down

[LTNman]

I wonder how much the investors have already lost?

[cavokblues]

Judging by their achievements in the last two weeks, probably about twenty quid.

[Markushillman]

Was clearly a prank, end of discussion. Let Monarch rest in peace