Unknown Hurricane pilot

[POBJOY]

When Pobjoy was a young tot living in Surrey someone gave him a pile of wartime 'The Aeroplane' magazine rather than bin them.
One of these 'Sept/Oct 1946' contained a regular feature call 'Oddentification' which was a Wren image of a machine (suitably showing its lines) followed by simple poem type comments. This 1946 edition featured a sole Hawker Hurricane when it led the official BoB flypast of over 300 aircraft over London (poss LF363)
I still remember the start of the script (Steady my friend on this your final journey) but only recently found out that the Pilots name was kept a secret as a tribute to the many who had taken part in the the actual battle.
So the challenge (if you care to accept it) is two fold:- Lets see a copy of the 'Odentification' (I see to remember the Hurricane was wearing a helmet in typical Wren fashion),and the real test who was flying it on that flypast. !!! I think that S Vincent may be a good 'contender' as the pilot as he was very involved with LF363 and by 1946 was a senior officer in fighter command.
Sorry but good time to also remember the Kenley raid 83 years ago today !!! (Kenley still operational)

[longer ron]

Hi Pobjoy Pete
If only the Hurri Pilot had done a 'wheels up' into the Oxo cricket ground - we would know his name,what make of shreddies he was wearing and what he had for breakfast - and at least he would have had a cuppa in the pavilion :).

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/107428-spitfire-stops-play-just-not-cricket

[treadigraph]

.l
Sorry but good time to also remember the Kenley raid 83 years ago today !!! (Kenley still operational)

Here ya go Pete!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1161/kenley_8e57e47fe1faddf4bb07ba7d5a7cc23896a7e9bd_c8b76391b26d 3b81d8c81a6d15deed94e077f75d.jpg

Old Tin Legs led one flypast but I assume that was 1945.

[POBJOY]

Hi Pobjoy Pete
If only the Hurri Pilot had done a 'wheels up' into the Oxo cricket ground - we would know his name,what make of shreddies he was wearing and what he had for breakfast - and at least he would have had a cuppa in the pavilion :).

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/107428-spitfire-stops-play-just-not-cricket
My goodness what a thread that was on Key in 2010 (I think) . There is a link actually as LF 363 flew over the 'grounded' SL 574 at Bromley in 59 when it was the only Hurricane left on RAF charge. With regard to that thread it turned into a marathon debate regarding whether the cricket stumps actually dented the wing. (aircraft in San Diego now). Our friend from that time Mark 12 came up with a copy of the MK 16 rear fuel system and this sorted the 'selection' issue that had caused the Merlin failure. Well worth a re read of that thread from those days. Of course 363 and 574 also had Kenley time during filming RFTSky.
By the way the Kenley dump was situated bottom left of the picture below the blast bay entrance, and went down to the common fence. (dont bother the Staff Cadets of 615 GS milked it dry in the 60's)

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

POBJOY I've been doing a bit of digging (newish spuds for supper) and can't find any reference to a Hurricane leading the Battle of Britain Flypast over London on September 14th 1946. Apparently the formation was led by Old Tin Legs with 15 Spitfires of No 1 Squadron...........

[POBJOY]

POBJOY I've been doing a bit of digging (newish spuds for supper) and can't find any reference to a Hurricane leading the Battle of Britain Flypast over London on September 14th 1946. Apparently the formation was led by Old Tin Legs with 15 Spitfires of No 1 Squadron...........
Hi QUAQ yes Bader did lead the fighter command part with a load of Spits, but the flypast itself contained over 300 machines from all commands, and as the Hurricane had played the leading role in the BoB and there was only one left in the RAF by then it got to lead the whole parade so to speak.
That part is well documented in reports of the time, as was the inability to identify the Hurricane pilot. The 1945 flypast did not include a Hurricane.as 363 was a bit of a secret for someone, and in fact its true identity may be a bit of a mystery, but Stanley Vincent was prob involved as he had flown missions out of Northolt (station commander) with one in 1940 (and had kills to his record).Rumour was that he was a friend of S Camm and asked him to 'sort' him one to fly after the war finished.!!

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Hello POBJOY I've just discovered there were two flypasts in 1946 - not only September 14th but also a Victory Flypast on 8th June 1946. I dunno if we will be able to read the attached newspaper cutting about the latter let's see. It seems that we are never to know who the Hurricane Pilot was.

All the best !


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1063x1373/smathersrw55201v10007_1_enlarge_2__6883fee48d7368362cda7af69 6c4cb9f41ea1928.jpg
Image Digital Archive Lincoln University.

[POBJOY]

Hello POBJOY I've just discovered there were two flypasts in 1946 - not only September 14th but also a Victory Flypast on 8th June 1946. I dunno if we will be able to read the attached newspaper cutting about the latter let's see. It seems that we are never to know who the Hurricane Pilot was.

All the best !


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1063x1373/smathersrw55201v10007_1_enlarge_2__6883fee48d7368362cda7af69 6c4cb9f41ea1928.jpg
Image Digital Archive Lincoln University.
Well thats what these forums are good at, digging out forgotten facts and sharing the info, within a few weeks we will know more about what happened and why. What makes it even more interesting is the aircraft is still around and someone will know who looked after it and where it operated from. 363 was at Waterbeach for some time being kept serviceable from a couple of wrecks on the dump one of which ended up a Coleys and had been used for the 'thin wing' trials. Brian Mercer (Blue Diamonds) mentions he borrowed it a couple of times but thought it vibrated rather a lot. So lets get 'digging' and find out who the mystery driver was in 1946.One thing is for sure its 'actual' history will be far more interesting than the official line. It was one of the original BoB fleet at Biggin at some time before moving to Martlesham, and was flying with 574 to Biggin after the 59 BoB flypast over London when 574 bellied in at the OXO sports field near Bromley.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

You and I touched on this subject on the Bovingdon thread just over three years ago. You get a pretty good history of LF363 here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y (https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Hawker_Hurricane_Survivors.html?id=71J2DQAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y)


I expect the Battle of Britain Flight would have a copy of the relevant Tech Log......?

Pinched this from Bovingdon thread:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1036x716/screenshot_2023_08_18_at_22_37_18_raf_bovingdon_1960s_pprune _forums_a1dfa090b6d8584934a7158492cde59046c0be5d.png
Source: The Aviation Historian with many thanks.

[POBJOY]

You and I touched on this subject on the Bovingdon thread just over three years ago. You get a pretty good history of LF363 here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...AJ&redir_esc=y (https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Hawker_Hurricane_Survivors.html?id=71J2DQAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y)


I expect the Battle of Britain Flight would have a copy of the relevant Tech Log......?

Pinched this from Bovingdon thread:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1036x716/screenshot_2023_08_18_at_22_37_18_raf_bovingdon_1960s_pprune _forums_a1dfa090b6d8584934a7158492cde59046c0be5d.png
Source: The Aviation Historian with many thanks.
Any possibility Tom is the mystery flypast pilot !!! Log book !!!!,
and I wonder if 363 'popped' back to Hawkers occasionally for a fix, plus the image shows well how 'generous' the cockpit is, of course the Hurricane did not have an entry hinged down door, but an emergency panel on the STB side which in this case looks like it is still wearing camo.

[chevvron]

Any possibility Tom is the mystery flypast pilot !!! Log book !!!!,
and I wonder if 363 'popped' back to Hawkers occasionally for a fix.
In the mid/late '60s whilst gliding at Halton, about 4 pm every saturday a Hurricane would come over the ridge from the Chesham (Dunsfold?) direction, descend over the airfield, barrel roll then off to the north east.
I was told it was Bill Bedford but which airframe and where he was going I don't know.

[treadigraph]

In the mid/late '60s whilst gliding at Halton, about 4 pm every saturday a Hurricane would come over the ridge from the Chesham (Dunsfold?) direction, descend over the airfield, barrel roll then off to the north east.
I was told it was Bill Bedford but which airframe and where he was going I don't know.
HSA used to operate PZ865/G-AMAU from Dunsfold until they presented her to the BBMF circa 1968. Bill Bedford certainly flew her.

[POBJOY]

HSA used to operate PZ865/G-AMAU from Dunsfold until they presented her to the BBMF circa 1968. Bill Beford certainly flew her.
Bill Bedford certainly used to display PZ 865 and we used to see it meeting up over Kenley with AB910 when they appeared at the Biggin 'At Home'.
In fact we would stop winching (regardless of signals) climb on top of the cage and jump up and down and wave. After a few minutes of holding they would form up and proceed to Biggin having made our day down below. However you have now got me wondering what all that was about over Halton, as Dunsfold is a fair way from Halton, we may need some help from 'spotters' for this one. Perhaps the Pilot was a former Brat. !!!

[chevvron]

Bill Bedford certainly used to display PZ 865 and we used to see it meeting up over Kenley with AB910 when they appeared at the Biggin 'At Home'.
In fact we would stop winching (regardless of signals) climb on top of the cage and jump up and down and wave. After a few minutes of holding they would form up and proceed to Biggin having made our day down below. However you have now got me wondering what all that was about over Halton, as Dunsfold is a fair way from Halton, we may need some help from 'spotters' for this one. Perhaps the Pilot was a former Brat. !!!
It was regular almost every saturday weather permitting; we always stopped winching too almost like we were expecting it; headed off in the general direction of Henlow/Old Warden maybe even Coltishall where BBMF was based in those days.

[treadigraph]

Reminds me, believe Kenley will have a visit from the BBMF tomorrow, must get meself up there.

One of the Biggin Spitfires came over here this afternoon accompanied by their Airvan, giving Kenley a wide berth they swung back round to the East - nice to see them close up, nearly always head off into Kent.

[POBJOY]

Reminds me, believe Kenley will have a visit from the BBMF tomorrow, must get meself up there.

One of the Biggin Spitfires came over here this afternoon accompanied by their Airvan, giving Kenley a wide berth they swung back round to the East - nice to see them close up, nearly always head off into Kent.

Good luck with Kenley Treads and its either going to be 865 or 363, (If a Hurricane appears) or the jackpot (Both). Either way they know Kenley well as they have both filmed there in the past. Someone needs to check the book 'Paddy' as 363 definitely has connections there with PB and Waterbeach. Already starting to fill in some blank spaces, so will draw up a simple log (after the w-end). Have a great Kenley day and give it my fond regards, its a great survivor, and stood its ground when needed.(A Surrey common that became a battleground).

[POBJOY]

It was regular almost every saturday weather permitting; we always stopped winching too almost like we were expecting it; headed off in the general direction of Henlow/Old Warden maybe even Coltishall where BBMF was based in those days.

Possibly 363 out of Bovingdon, still open then and used by fighter command coms.

[chevvron]

Possibly 363 out of Bovingdon, still open then and used by fighter command coms.
We had a detachment of 613 at Bovingdon and I can assure you there was no Hurricane based there (although there was a solitary Mosquito left over from filming '633 Sqdn'); Bovingdon never flew powered aircraft on saturdays apart from a Fouga Magister which would go out on saturday morning.

[POBJOY]

We had a detachment of 613 at Bovingdon and I can assure you there was no Hurricane based there (although there was a solitary Mosquito left over from filming '633 Sqdn'); Bovingdon never flew powered aircraft on saturdays apart from a Fouga Magister which would go out on saturday morning.

Well I never said it was going to be easy, with the time scale and going back to a very paper recorded regime.
However we have already exposed some facts and so we need to free up some grey matter from those who looked after these machines (or knew someone who did).Of course our real hope are the senior spotters on Prune as a Hurricane after the war was a rare bird, and unlike 865 which mainly lived at Dunsfold and was even used as a chase when required, 363 migrated around various units no doubt being a bit 'unofficial' until it formed the basis of the BBMF. Stanley Vincent apparently flew it in the 1949 BoB FP after its return from Langley, and we know about Tom Neil's excursions (and hopefully that will be expanded). Brian Mercer 'borrowed' it when he was on Hunters so someone somewhere at sometime must have been doing its oils coolant and fabric to keep her going.
The 574 thread on Key many years back was similar, but being 'Spitfire' probably helped the info flow. The good news is she was also a 'film star' during this time (at Kenley) and probably was confused when a clutch of machines from Portugal joined her for a while (sadly they all went back) (Via Tangmere).

[treadigraph]

The Oxo cricket pitch incident by SL574 was witnessed in part by an old colleague of mine when he was a small boy. I seem to recall he raced to the scene having seen it disappear from wherever he was standing, I would have done so too. Had to go to San Diego to see this particular Spit; well, and for other reasons...

[GeeRam]

I expect the Battle of Britain Flight would have a copy of the relevant Tech Log......?


From old BBMF info from many years ago, '363 went to Middle Wallop on 28th Aug 1945, and appears to have languished there when until supposedly being SOC there on 21st June 1947....but then appeared on the strength of Fighter Command Communication Squadron on 14th Aug 1947. This was no doubt the point that Air Cdre Stanley Vincent found her at Wallop and 'saved' LF363 from its likely fate, and why she's now with BBMF today.
If it was '363, it would appear the flight isn't logged on its movement card/tech log record?

[GeeRam]

HSA used to operate PZ865/G-AMAU from Dunsfold until they presented her to the BBMF circa 1968. Bill Bedford certainly flew her.

HSA loaned '865 for use in filming of the Battle of Britain in 1968, but it went back to HSA after filming, but didn't fly again. HSA returned it to flying condition in 1971 and presented it to BBMF on 29th March 1972, when HSA TP Duncan Simpson delivered '865 to the BBMF at Coltishall.....sort of. Simpson believed it should be kept airworthy and engaged in some behind the scenes activity to get permission to get '865 to the BBMF (rest of Hawkers historic collection was going to the RAFM) and once enough permission had been agreed within HSA, before anyone changed their minds, Simpson elected to fly '865 to Coltishall and hand it over, so he arrived at BBMF somewhat unexpected, and unaware they were about to double their number of Hurricanes!

[treadigraph]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1142x747/20230820_142910_8ebbbaddb0d2fc479fa57d3bea297447e40b4b16.jpg
Hasty cropped shot from my phone - PZ865 delights quite a substantial crowd at Kenley all on her lonesome, Lanc was heading up towards Southend, couldn't see a Spit anywhere.

Ah 1972 was it, I recall reading the story somewhere. Also Duncan Simpson's account of test flying Strathallan's Hurricane with its idiosyncratic ailerons.

[POBJOY]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1142x747/20230820_142910_8ebbbaddb0d2fc479fa57d3bea297447e40b4b16.jpg
Hasty cropped shot from my phone - PZ865 delights quite a substantial crowd at Kenley all on her lonesome, Lanc was heading up towards Southend, couldn't see a Spit anywhere.

Ah 1972 was it, I recall reading the story somewhere. Also Duncan Simpson's account of test flying Strathallan's Hurricane with its idiosyncratic ailerons.
Well done Treads, I bet the Dorniers kept well away. As for the Strathallan Hurricane it was a Canadian one built from 'parts' (many were missing) including the ailerons. The chap made a pair up that fitted but were not exactly true to design. They had to fly it with some lengths of rope trailing from the rear edge to stop them fluttering. Also the elevator travel was less than original which made it tricky for three pointing. (they found that out eventually). I happened to be on a charter up there when the auction was held and saw Patrick Lindsey fly in with his Spit (he wore slippers). The Hurricane made a world record sum for that time, and I managed a 30 min hangar flight. There were some Auster parts in the auction and a pair of very nice braked wheels came my way and went on the Swift. The last time I saw 865 over Kenley was in the 60's when I was winching gliders. It met up with the Spit 910 and they ran in to a Biggin event as a pair. Messers Bedford and Quill with R-Bax giving them the into.

[treadigraph]

No 'Einkels neither... I think Bill Bedford said Strathallan borrowed a pair of ailerons from Shuttleworth while a proper pair were built up. Sadly the auction saw 'WLW return to Canada where it was lost in a hangar fire along with several other treasures.

[topgas]

Report from The Times on 10th June 1946. The weather was even worse than for the recent Coronation.

The end of the victory parade -was just turning into the Mall as the single Hurricane, flown by an anonymous-Battle of Britain pilot, crossed the saluting base. It was followed by, three Coastal Command Sunderland flying- boats and a similar number of Transport Command Halifaxes. The representatives of Bomber Command, 12 Lancasters of No. 35 Squadron, led by Wing Commander A. J. L. Craig, D.S.O., D.F.C., the R.A.F.'s youngest wing commander, came next, flying in a tri- angular formation. From my position in the nose of the leading Lancaster it was possible to catch only an occasional glimpse of any other aircraft.
OLD AND NEW AIRCRAFT Somewhere in the gloom to the rear of the bombers were Mosquitoes from the British Air Forces of Occupation in Gerrnany and of Fighter and Coastal Commands; Beaufighters from Coastal Command; Naval Air Arm Firebrands, Fireflies, Seafires, and Sea Mosquitoes; and various types of Spitfires, Hornets, and Tempests, representing B.A.F.O. and Fighter Command whose units of Meteor and Vampire jet-propelled fighters brought up the rear. Altogether about 650 pilots and air-crew members took part in the fly-past, and four members of the W.A.A.F. travelled as passengers in Lancasters. They were Flight Ofliccr Mary Smith, personal assistant to Air Marshal Sir Norman Bottomley, A.O.C.-in-C., Bomber Command; Sergeant Edna Coate, a watch- keeper in the operations room at Graveley, Huntingdonshire, where No. 35 Squadron is based; and L.A.C.W. Jean For,bes and Cor- poral Bctty Jones, two clerks of No. 11 Group, who were being rewarded for having typed the whole of the instructions relating to the air display. In the main, the aircraft in the fly-past were representative of the powerful air forces with which Britain ended the war. Only the solitary Hurricane was a veteran of the Battle of Britain, though to the layman there was little difference between the Spitfires and the earlier types which caused German crews to cry out in alarm, ' "Achtung, Spitfeucr." The Sunderlands, too, were little changed from those which guarded our convoys during the height of the U-boat menace. But one missed the familiar outlines of the Blenheims and Battles, which were the standard light bombers in the early days; of the Defiant fighters, with their backward-firing turrets which gave the Luftwaffe such a nasty surprise during the Dunkirk evacuation; and of the Wellingtons (the R.A.F.'s beloved " Wimpeys "), the Hampdens and the Whitleys, which carried the battle into the heart of Germany until the four- engined bombers were ready. From the ranks of the Naval Air Arm a noticeable absentee was the old and trusty " Stringbag "-the Swordfish biplane, which enjoyed the distinction of remaining in the front line from start to finish of the war. The great dissimilarities in the speeds of the various types of aircraft participating in the aerial procession-they ranged from 150 m.p.h. to the 350 miles an hour cruising speed of the " jet" fighters-was a problem, but this was solved by so timing the convergence of the units that when the Hurricane was over the saluting hase the Meteors were 68 miles away over Foulness Point and the Vampires were just taking off from West Mailing aerodrome in Kent. Having flown in tight formation at 1,5OOft. from Graveley to the first turning point at Wattisham aerodrome, Suffolk, and turned again at Bradwell Bay, on the north side lof the Thames Estuary, the Lancasters saw their first navigational aid at Fairlop aerodrome, the rendezvous point.

[POBJOY]

No 'Einkels neither... I think Bill Bedford said Strathallan borrowed a pair of ailerons from Shuttleworth while a proper pair were built up. Sadly the auction saw 'WLW return to Canada where it was lost in a hangar fire along with several other treasures.

Actually there was a bit of fuss at the auction as the Hurricane was bought back by the 'estate', and many people thought it was only in the auction to promote interest in the event (I seem to recall 'memory' it went for £260,000 ) I think it went back to Canada later. Duncan Simpson wrote an article about the test flights for a UK COA, and it was restricted to a max of 250 mph until the control surfaces were sorted.

[POBJOY]

Topgas. I have seen that report, and indeed the weather (and number of aircraft were interesting factors). I also think there was an incident when Jets caused a Tempest formation to break and two Tempests collided. The whole operation must have been an amazing spectacle (and a nightmare to arrange with coms and nav kit of the day)
I suspect the Hurricane could have been flown by SV as he would have had the rank to arrange that, and certainly was keen on the type.

[POBJOY]

There are two books that may mention 363 (plus B Mercer quote)
Flying Fever by SV
Paddy by P Barthrop

[GeeRam]

Topgas. I have seen that report, and indeed the weather (and number of aircraft were interesting factors). I also think there was an incident when Jets caused a Tempest formation to break and two Tempests collided. The whole operation must have been an amazing spectacle (and a nightmare to arrange with coms and nav kit of the day)
I suspect the Hurricane could have been flown by SV as he would have had the rank to arrange that, and certainly was keen on the type.

Its very possible SV was involved for that reason, but may not have flown it though.
I wonder......could it have been Roland Beamont, in an aircraft supplied by Hawker's at Langley? In summer of 1946, Hawker's at Langley were still doing refurbishment and rebuild's of ex-RAF aircraft for overseas sales, to Portugal, Iran etc., and Beamont would have just still been a TP at RAF CFE when the flypast took place, before joining Glosters as a TP, and had been a TP at Hawkers for two stints during the war, and was of course a Battle of Frane and Battle of Britain pilot. Its something SV could have arranged with Hawkers in the absence of any airworthy RAF Hurricanes at the time, which seems to be the case.
Just a thought?

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

I had a quick look at Beamont's book 'Flying to the Limit' he makes no mention of the Flypast.

[POBJOY]

I had a quick look at Beamont's book 'Flying to the Limit' he makes no mention of the Flypast.

It appears that no Hurricane took part in the 1945 events, and the BoB event was led by Bader from North Weald. However this did cause some comments as the Hurricanes contribution to the 1940 (real thing) was well known but it appears an aircraft was not to be found at the time. This is what may have prompted SV to ask S Camm to sort him one out, and Langley would have been the place.
The 1946 article of that event makes a firm comment that the pilot of the lead Hurricane was to be kept a secret (rather like the unknown warrior) as a tribute to all that took part. Anyone working at Hawkers Langley in 46-49 would probably have some knowledge of this and perhaps some family members may be a source. Have left a 'plea' on the spotters forum. Although Hurricanes were few in the RAF by then Langley was involved with orders for Persia and Portugal so parts were still available. My money is still on SV, and it may be in his book Flying Fever.(will see if the library will help)

[First_Principal]

My money is still on SV, and it may be in his book Flying Fever.(will see if the library will help)

It appears that Cambridge University has a collection of Stanley Vincent's papers (https://archivesearch.lib.cam.ac.uk/repositories/9/resources/1884), these are available to researchers. Whether this information would settle the question here is not guaranteed of course, but it could be of interest for anyone nearby to peruse.

Also of note; Air Vice Marshal Vincent had three children, it may be that there is family information relating to the event. Perhaps a lead that might be usefully followed up?

FP.

[GeeRam]

I had a quick look at Beamont's book 'Flying to the Limit' he makes no mention of the Flypast.

Given when he wrote the book, and the fact that there seems to have been an agreement that the pilot would be an anonymous tribute to the BoB, its very likely that desire to maintain that would still have been in his mind, so if he it was RB, I expect that he would have maintained that silence all through his life.
Likewise, I would expect the same from SV if it was him as well.
I suspect we'll never likely know who it was, or even the serial number of the a/c unless a relative finds the 1946 entry for a Hurricane flight in a BoB veteran's logbook that is still in their family possession.

To be honest, I'd be looking at one of the pilots that fly in the previous years flypasts. Frank Carey flew in the Sept 45 BoB anniversary flypast I believe, and as the highest scoring Hurricane pilot, he might have been a candiate. He had just been made a Wing Cdr in May '46 and would have been at Staff College, Camberley at the time of the flypast, so not far from Langley, if that is indeed where the Hurricane came from, as seems likely.

Ginger Lacey is another possibility, having been in the Far East when the 1945 flypasts took place, but he returned to the UK from Japan in May 1946, and was of course the highest scoring surviving BoB pilot at wars ends.

[POBJOY]

Thanks for that G Ram, We do know that 363 led the 46 flypast so that rather narrows the field to those who had some influence to make it happen, and SV was definitely a strong contender for that. However that is not the whole story, as it would be nice to find out her 'wanderings' (we know about the films) up to arriving at Biggin in 57 as one of the founders of what became the BBMF. Certainly Waterbeach features in there somewhere as did Kenley with the films.

[GeeRam]

Thanks for that G Ram, We do know that 363 led the 46 flypast so that rather narrows the field to those who had some influence to make it happen, and SV was definitely a strong contender for that. However that is not the whole story, as it would be nice to find out her 'wanderings' (we know about the films) up to arriving at Biggin in 57 as one of the founders of what became the BBMF. Certainly Waterbeach features in there somewhere as did Kenley with the films.

I must have missed out something here?
How do we know that LF363 lead the '46 flypast exactly?

Available information from BBMF suggests '363 was inactive at Middle Wallop from Aug '45 until SV 'liberated' it after it had been SOC, and had it made airworthy and transferred to the FCCS in Aug '47. Therefore it couldn't have lead the '46 flypast.

[POBJOY]

Hi G Ram There are several accounts of 363 being at Waterbeach in 46 being kept 'Flying' with parts from a couple of non flying machines there. In fact there were Hurricanes still flying overseas with 6 Sdn but it appears that 363 was the only recorded airworthy UK RAF one by 46. There was a Key forum mention of this some time ago with images, and I think Paddy Barthrop was involved with it at some time. What is interesting is its 'travels before Langley (and after) no doubt prompted by base closures and there is probably a good story with that alone 'hopefully'. It seems to have been in silver dope before filming. We need some pukka 'gen' from a keen spotter type to fill in the gaps. My memory dose recall that one of the 'donor' airfames at the time was the Hurricane used in the thin wing trials.

[GeeRam]

Hi G Ram There are several accounts of 363 being at Waterbeach in 46 being kept 'Flying' with parts from a couple of non flying machines there. In fact there were Hurricanes still flying overseas with 6 Sdn but it appears that 363 was the only recorded airworthy UK RAF one by 46. There was a Key forum mention of this some time ago with images, and I think Paddy Barthrop was involved with it at some time. What is interesting is its 'travels before Langley (and after) no doubt prompted by base closures and there is probably a good story with that alone 'hopefully'. It seems to have been in silver dope before filming. We need some pukka 'gen' from a keen spotter type to fill in the gaps. My memory dose recall that one of the 'donor' airfames at the time was the Hurricane used in the thin wing trials.

Do you have a link for that Key forum discussion? Given 'Fluffy' of BBMF used to be a regular poster there, I'd be surprised that he didn't contribute to that thread if so? As earliest known photo of '363 held by BBMF is from 1948/9 after it had been 'saved' by SV.
Only thread on Key forum I can find is the old one from 15 years ago when we were discussing the then daft rumour about BBMF swapping '363 for a Mk.1 held by the Indian AF Museum.

Are you sure your not getting your dates mixed up, as '363 went to Waterbeach from Thorney Island in May 1950 when the resident fighter squadrons left Thorney and went to Waterbeach. She was at Waterbeach until 1955/6 mostly as a squadron hack, apart from brief spells with 19MU, No.61 Group at Kenley, and No.41 Squadron at Biggin.
Her connection with Paddy Barthrop at Waterbeach was in 1952-53 when Barthrop went to Waterbeach as Wing Commander Flying.
There is certainly a photo of '363 taken in a hanger at Waterbeach in 1953, undergoing a major service by Sgt Gauge & AC's Foster and Fisher.

As I've said in other posts, there is nothing on LF363's movement card between arriving at Middle Wallop on 30th Aug 1945 and 21st June 1947 when its noted as presumed SOC.

As such I really don't think its possible for '363 to have been the sole lead Hurricane on the 1946 Victory flypast.
Far more likely to have been PZ865 flown by a Hawker TP, or a RAF pilot that Hawker's were OK to flying PZ like Beamont, or Peter Townsend is another possibility given his later flying of PZ in air-races in its blue livery just a few years later. Although given Townsend was the Kings Equerry in 1946, its likely there are photo's of him in an official capacity for that day perhaps, which therefore would exclude him being the pilot. He certainly had the contacts to be it though!!

[POBJOY]

G ram There is indeed an image of 865 in a victory parade in 1946 but it is wingless on a lorry driving through Kingston in Camo. It seems to have always been either in camo or Hawkers racing blue. There is no obvious evidence that there were any other serviceable RAF Hurricanes in the UK at this time, and certainly nothing has come to light since. When 363 was chosen to be 'rescued' for SV one assumes it was done so because of its 'suitability' to return to flight therefore must have been picked on that basis. Anyway we have a trail of base's that run from MW Langley, TI, WB, Kenley/Biggin, but that does not preclude it actually flying from elsewhere.

[GeeRam]

G ram There is indeed an image of 865 in a victory parade in 1946 but it is wingless on a lorry driving through Kingston in Camo. It seems to have always been either in camo or Hawkers racing blue. There is no obvious evidence that there were any other serviceable RAF Hurricanes in the UK at this time, and certainly nothing has come to light since. When 363 was chosen to be 'rescued' for SV one assumes it was done so because of its 'suitability' to return to flight therefore must have been picked on that basis. Anyway we have a trail of base's that run from MW Langley, TI, WB, Kenley/Biggin, but that does not preclude it actually flying from elsewhere.

It does preclude it flying from somewhere else if its movement card and Form 700 have it not flying from anywhere else...!!!
LF363 was chosen by the fact that it was so late being SOC in 1947, and was in effect the last one left, not because it was most suitable. SV was likely tipped off, about it being SOC, or about to be, and as the only one left still on charge (almost) it was '363 or nothing.


I've done a bit of digging and I think some of the problem is confusion because of some incorrect information about Hurricane LF751 posted on the Manston museum website here…… https://www.spitfiremuseum.org.uk/collection-hurricane where it is on display, which people may be taking as correct.In the first paragraph, they should have written No.24 OTU, and not No.27 OTU.
In Francis Mason’s book on the Hurricane, he has LF751 as being ex-24 OTU, and in Ken Delve’s comprehensive Source Book of the R.A.F, he lists the code letters for 24 OTU as being FB, which ties in with them saying is was coded FB-B. Also 1681 BDTF were based with 24OTU, so again this ties in with it being 24OTU not 27, but 24OTU and 1681 BDTF were based at RAF Long Marston, not at Waterbeach!!
No.24 OTU disbanded in July 1945 at Long Marston, which is almost certainly when LF751 was then relegated to an instructional airframe 5466M in July 1945, and likely stayed at Long Marston, and was never based at Waterbeach as they say.
RAF Waterbeach was a front line bomber base until summer of 1945, and then became a RAF Transport Command base from 1945-1950 and was heavily involved in Berlin Airlift ops a few years later.

LF571 almost certainly didn’t end up at Waterbeach until after LF363 moved there in 1950, when Waterbeach became a Fighter Command base, and the Thorney Island squadrons moved there, and took ‘363 with them. To help keep ‘363 in the air, grounded instructional Hurricanes were ‘acquired’ from wherever they could be found still on RAF bases, and likely LF571 was found at Long Marston when it was then part of No.8MU, and it was taken to Waterbeach as a spares source for ‘363, as were the other aircraft mentioned, Z3687 & PG953.

This only took me about an hour to find out with a bit of cross referencing, so it’s a shame the museum info is so poorly written.:rolleyes:


So, going back to the Hurricane used for the 1946 flypast, which I’m 99% sure, was not LF363 as it was in store at Middle Wallop as per its movement card/Form700.

A sifting through some of the serial’s in the Francis Mason Hurricane book, shows that some of the very last batch of Hurricanes made, were still showing as being on the strength of No.8 OTU at RAF Mount Farm in 1946, including PZ809, PZ821, PZ823, PZ861 & PZ863, as well as it listing PG469 as still serving with No.518(Met) Sqn at RAF Aldergrove in 1946. So there is a possibility there were just a small handful of Hurricanes still just airworthy in the UK in the RAF in 1946 which could have been used for the flypast, so take your pick of those 6, as well as the possibility of one of the 50 odd ex-RAF machines that were being refurbished by Hawkers at Langley in 1946 for Portugal being 'borrowed' by the RAF. Don't forget that these ex-RAF Hurricanes were most likely flown to Langley from where ever they were in storage at RAF bases, so all these were technically flyable in 1946, and most likely were flown to Langley by RAF pilots to be handed over to Hawkers.
Still doesn't help with the unknown pilot though.

[Warmtoast]

Ref the 8th June 1946 Victory Day celebrations mentioned above.

Although I was in London on 8th June 1946 my family didn't take me to see the Military Parades along The Mall, however I do remember seeing the flypast (very noisy at low level despite the rain) which was brilliant - fond memories

VICTORY DAY - 8 June 1946
On 8 June 1946 the RAF made its aerial contribution to the Victory Day celebrations — staged a year and one month after VE Day itself — in the form of a flypast over London. The weather on the day was appalling, with heavy rain, low cloud and poor visibility, but the aerial parade took place as scheduled. GCI stations at various points along the route controlled the six streams of aircraft.
Extensive planning details of the event are held by the National Archives in Kew. Aircraft speeds quoted during practice were 149mph for the Sunderlands, Lancasters 184mph, Fleet Air Arm aircraft and Spitfires 220mph, and jets at 290mph, the latter to be raised if possible. The Tempests, Mosquitoes and Beaufighters were not mentioned, and neither were the Halifaxes — presumably the latter were a last-minute addition.
After overflying Buckingham Palace, the stream would continue west as far as Kew Bridge where the Sunderlands, Lancasters, Mosquitoes, Beaufighters and Meteors would turn starboard and circuit north London. The Firebrands, Fireflies, Seafires, Spitfires and Tempests would turn to port and circuit South London, the Vampires returning directly to base. If the Meteors were likely to be short of fuel, North Weald would refuel them. The Hornets were not mentioned here, but since their base was at Horsham St Faith they presumably joined the north London circuit.
The flypast involved a lot of additional work and planning to accommodate units and personnel. The three Tempest squadrons from Germany were detached to Chilbolton, and three Mosquito units to Manston. The number of personnel needing to be transported to and from Germany would be 117 for the Tempests and 166 for the Mosquitoes, while spares also had to be arranged.
All squadrons had to be concentrated at their flypast bases by 3 June for a full-scale practice, and the aircraft of all section leaders and deputy leaders were to be fitted with MkIII Gee or a satisfactory alternative means of identification by GCI. It was proposed to set up a Eureka beacon on top of Admiralty Arch, Bush House or a similar building, while a line of sodium lights at approximately one-mile intervals was laid along the route to assist in bad visibility — a good plan, as it turned out. All squadrons would carry VHF and the ‘starting line’ GCI would be at Hornchurch for last-minute instructions; aircraft would be over London between 12.00 and 12.20hrs.
Flight’s representative flew in a Mosquito of No 4 Squadron from Germany. The unit had arrived at Manston from Gütersloh with Nos 21 and 107 Squadrons, all flying Mosquito FBVIs. The weather at Manston was fine, even shirt-sleeve order, but during the preliminary sweep over East Anglia to join the main stream on the run-in to London it deteriorated rapidly. The Wing Leader, Wg Cdr Corkery, had to make a hasty departure with engine trouble, but deputy leader Sqn Ldr Golightly took over and an airborne spare filled the gap.
Sodium lights and flares on Fairlop airfield were just discernible, but by now conditions were extremely bad. Frequently the aircraft ahead — one machine’s length away — would be out of sight, but they passed over the saluting base at 1,000ft exactly on time, the leader calling out the codewords to ground control: “Mint Sauce — Iceberg No 4 Squadron.”
The Aeroplane’s correspondent joined the only Beaufighters in the flypast, from No 254 Squadron at Thorney Island, a torpedo-bombing unit in No 19 Group, Coastal Command. Thorney was also the base for No 248 Squadron’s Mosquito FBVIs in the flypast. The Beaufighters encountered bad weather all along the route and on the run-up to Luton, where they headed east to Stowmarket and picked up the other aircraft in the stream with callsign ‘Iceberg’. From there they flew down past Colchester to Foulness, turning in over Southend towards Fairlop with windscreen wipers in action all the way. Past London, the Beaufighters broke up and flew back to Thorney. There nine aircraft were waiting to land, but not one could be seen from another! The No 248 Squadron Mosquitoes did not return to Thorney, some landing at Ford, but the Aeroplane journalist did not know where the others went.
To return to the flypast, it was led by a single Hurricane flown by a Battle of Britain pilot, followed by three Sunderland Vs from No 201 Squadron at Calshot, three Halifax VIIs of No 297 Squadron at Brize Norton, and 12 Lancaster IIIs operated by No 35 Squadron at Graveley. The latter, famously, were later to fly to America in the Operation ‘Goodwill’ visit.
After the heavies came the twin-engined aircraft. There were 72 Mosquitoes of various marks: NF30s of Nos 25 and 29 Squadrons from Boxted, 219 at Acklington, 264 at Wittering, 85 at Colerne and 151 at Exeter, while the FBVIs were from Thorney Island’s No 248 Squadron and units over from Germany as mentioned earlier. A sole formation of Sea Mosquito TR33s came from 811 Squadron, Fleet Air Arm at Ford, then followed the No 254 Squadron Beaufighters and more FAA units — 813’s Firebrand IVs from Ford, 816’s Firefly Is from Lee-on-Solent and 807’s Seafire XVIIs, also stationed at Lee.
The actual number of Spitfires taking part was not mentioned in the reports, but there were certainly a large number. MkIXs were from No 164 Squadron at Middle Wallop, 165 at Duxford and 130 at Manston, while the XVIs were provided by 19 at Wittering, 587 at Tangmere, 691 at Weston Zoyland, 65 at Duxford, 287 at Acklington and 567 at West Malling. No 41 Squadron’s Wittering-based Spitfire F21s were the sole examples of that mark to be involved.
Operating from Horsham St Faith were No 64 Squadron’s nine Hornet Is, followed by Tempest IIs of No 54 Squadron at Chilbolton, and three squadrons of Tempest Vs from Germany: 3, 16 and 33, operating from Manston. Bringing up the rear were six squadrons of Meteor IIIs from Bentwaters and Boxted — 56, 74, 245, 234, 222 and 263 — and finally Vampire Is from No 247 Squadron at Odiham, operating from West Malling.
I was staying with grandparents at Pagham Beach near Bognor on this auspicious day, so did not expect to see any of these aircraft, but my notes on that day are as follows: squadrons of Beaufighters and Mosquitoes formed at 12.05, Firebrands at 12.15 and Spitfires and Seafires at 12.20 over the coast. The Beaufighters had arrived above Bognor at 11.55 and orbited with Mosquitoes until about 12.10, followed after two orbits by Firebrands at 12.15, 40 Spitfire XVIs and 10 Seafire XVIIs, the latter with long-range tanks.
A number of aircraft returned at about 300ft under ten-tenths cloud and heavy rain between 13.20 and 13.50, the Seafires flying straight across whereas the Mosquitoes and Sea Mosquitoes orbited for some time. Two Fireflies returned along the beach at 16.45.
It had originally been suggested to hold a night flying sequence with aircraft dropping parachute flares and being illuminated by searchlights, but it was considered that the flares would be dangerous if the parachutes failed to open — a wise precaution! Bomber Command was to supply four aircraft, but in the event this idea was dropped.

[POBJOY]

Well done W Toast, in 46 Pobjoy had not arrived on the scene, so it was an old copy (46) of the Aeroplane mag that sparked the interest. I have ordered a couple of books from my local library (by SV & PB) to see if that brings forth any info. Thanks for input. It seems that when 363 went to Biggin it had gained a camo scheme and lost the canon stubs.

[longer ron]

1402 (Met) Flight were I think still flying Hurricanes in 1946 - might they have been a source for a lone Hurri ?
I tend to agree with Geeram that it is unlikely that 363 was the Hurricane involved in the flypast.

Great bit of research there Geeram :)

[GeeRam]

It seems that when 363 went to Biggin it had gained a camo scheme and lost the canon stubs.

363 first lost its cannon stubs and gained a camo paint finish in May 1951, very soon after first arriving at Waterbeach, when it went back to Langley and Hawkers removed the stubs and fitted blanking plates, so it could get a camo paint job, for it to go to Kenley for the filming of Angels One Five (painted as P2617) in July 1951 along with the 5 Portugese Airforce Hurricanes that flew over for the filming. 363 was in a bit of state, by then, with severe cockpit section vibrations, and had a 180knts max speed limit applied. She also suffered numerous hyd leaks while at Kenley for the filming. The cannon stubs were re-fitted the following month after finish of filming, and it was also returned to its all silver finish.
363 went back to Langley in 1956 for a 9 month long major overhaul, and she lost the cannon stubs again, as part of the wing leading edge re-skin that was undertaken, but she left Hawker's with a new fresh all-silver paint finish.
As you say, by the time she went to Biggin the following year to join the 3 x PR.19 Spits to form the Memorial Flight, she had been given a camo paint job in place of the recently refreshed silver one.

[GeeRam]

1402 (Met) Flight were I think still flying Hurricanes in 1946 - might they have been a source for a lone Hurri ?


Very likely.
There was a specific Met.Mk.IIC Hurricane conversion for all the Met Flights, and many continued beyond VE Day and into 1946. I could only find the one reference for a serial number for a UK unit, but given there isn't the full log of all 14,000 odd serials listed, there were clearly others. How long into 1946 these continued I don't know, so maybe by Sept '46, most had given up their Hurricanes, or certainly had by end of '46.

[SLXOwft]

As this document in the IWM collection implies - the pilot was intended to be the 'unknown warrior of the air' - perhaps representing those whose bodies were never recovered. My gut tells me that we should follow that sentiment and not go beyond identifying the airframe. I suspect an RFC veteran like SV may have concurred.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x461/large_ch_016870_1_8d3a3d1c76651b201d407abf2cfc56c0a3be9d86.j pg