another unidentified aircraft & details request!

[intertidal]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/921x1628/possibly_best_man_by_aircraft_04ca6c8bcbdac8c94f42e40061a34e 9555c81728.jpg
can anyone identify this aircraft type please!? (Im pretty sure WW2)

[Asturias56]

Any other details?

Pilot nationality??

Approx dates??

Service? (Luftwaffe, USAAF, FAA....................)

[intertidal]

no other details unfortunately other than circumstantial & potentially flawed oral history.
probably a very close friend of my Gfathers brother who flew Beaufighters and later on Mosquitoes. He (my G/Uncle) trained at Luton pre war and then after WW2 started trained on Blenheims and other things.
so it's probably early 1940's.
G/Uncles letters came from Hullavington, Prestwich, Northern Ireland, East Fortune, amongst many other places.
I dont see any military bits & bobs on the aircraft or uniform so could be prewar, but I dont really know what Im looking at there. does it look RAF? certainly G/U Bob was in RAF (248 sqdn) in UK, then Egypt and latterly Coastal Command.

[thnarg]

Miles Master II ?

[Liffy 1M]

I think the aircraft is military, though the sharp demarcation between top and bottom colours looks perhaps more post-war than wartime. I also wondered whether the mage is "leaning" a bit to the left and if it would look different if rotated a bit to remedy this. I'm not sure that this helps but I attach the revised version (also rendered in plain black and white) in case it's useful.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/782x1448/possibly_best_man_by_aircraft_04ca6c8bcbdac8c94f42e40061a34e 9555c81728x_a26c152bbc2082f2b92112c8bedf86fc143226bd.jpg

[Planemike]

G/Uncles letters came from Hullavington, Prestwich, Northern Ireland, East Fortune, amongst many other places.<br />. <br />I think that will be Prestwick, not too many airfields in Prestwich....!!!<br />

[Asturias56]

Doesn't look like a Beaufighter to me - the observation canopy was directly above the wing trailing edge. In the picture the canopy appears to be mid wing at least

[kenparry]

Well, the parachute quick release is certainly a British type, so that narrows it down.............. just a little...................

[chevvron]

QRB is british as is leather helmet and oxy mask; parachute appears to be seat type rather than backpack; angle of fuselage to the ground suggests tricycle undercarriage so maybe a P39/63 or even a Meteor (not a Vampire as this had a wooden fuselage and the aircraft shown is metal)? Collar of shirt has what appears to be a button on the 'point of the collar but weren't RAF crew issued with separate collars with collar studs rather than button down collars?

[Timelord]

I think the button down collar is a smudge

[Asturias56]

doubt its a Meteor - same issue of the canopy in relation to the trailing wing edge

might be a late model Spitfire

[Liffy 1M]

What's that above the man's head - a canopy frame/fairing or an actual canopy?

[treadigraph]

Looks like a harness shoulder strap hanging over the side of a cockpit, maybe under a canopy rail?

[sycamore]

Intertidal,have you considered getting your g-fthrs brothers Service record ,which should give more information.There is `a gOV.UK` ,Application Forms..
The second picture is `cropped a bit ,from showing the `vertical piece extreme right and the bottom piece,level with his knees,roughly,as it looks like the pic is taken out of an office,or a vehicle..The `bit above his head` is/looks like a cowling fastener undone.
Is that a tailwheel,lower,far left,or a mainwheel...?
Is that a `door` for the tailwheel behind him,bottom right,or an open cowling,or exhaust/radiator outlet?
A lot depends on which way the aircraft is facing,and whether it has a tailwheel ,or a nosewheel,piston,or early jet...?
No visible camouflage,so ,is it grey,or possibly yellow?
No visible `oxygen tube`,and `casual` dress, so maybe `along for a ride...?
The first picture had more visible panels,and one just above his right elbow ,which might be useful clues...
So many questions,but no more answers....

[Liffy 1M]

Some of the features at the edges of the original image appear to me to be the normal white photo edging, but it might be helpful to see the full image to clarify this, at least!

[megan]

Inclined to say Meteor going by the small square panel next to the pilots left shoulder, also the nose of the belly tank is visible..


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/792x527/meteor_a77_886_photo_ken_hodge_me_ae891655d59d914e57e36d7296 59c7d753eeb7e8.jpg

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

megan I think you have it.

[Liffy 1M]

I agree too. The canopy may be open, which could account for the frame seen above the pilot's head.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4864/39991853843_23867d0252_c.jpg

[chevvron]

QRB is british as is leather helmet and oxy mask; parachute appears to be seat type rather than backpack; angle of fuselage to the ground suggests tricycle undercarriage so maybe a P39/63 or even a Meteor (not a Vampire as this had a wooden fuselage and the aircraft shown is metal)? Collar of shirt has what appears to be a button on the 'point of the collar but weren't RAF crew issued with separate collars with collar studs rather than button down collars?
:):):):):)

[sycamore]

I agree it seems to be a Meteor,but I think the photo is taken from and over the back of the port engine.The top panel with the open fastener is the panel to access the main fuel tank,and the angled `strut` to the right of his right leg is the port u/c `mudguard`,similar to the nosewheel...

[POBJOY]

Ah well something for a wet Sunday eve down west. Type C helmet so no help, no canopy structure, no oil streaks, and panels look quite 'used' . But hang on the unusual bit is what it is parked on that could be Dutch/German. Also can not read parachute box to tell if the image is printed the correct way round.
Mind you he has very well creased trousers for flying !!!

[POBJOY]

Ah well something for a wet Sunday eve down west. Type C helmet so no help, no canopy structure, no oil streaks, and panels look quite 'used' . But hang on the unusual bit is what it is parked on that could be Dutch/German. Also can not read parachute box to tell if the image is printed the correct way round.
Mind you he has very well creased trousers for flying !!!

Re the panel this does look like a Meteor and on the other side was possibly a step. However the print looks as if has censorship as the fitting hanging down looks like part of a harness yet no real canopy/rails detail. The surface underneath (looks like bricks) and not very serviceable. Suspect airbrush removal of poss e-seat. Sorry Brian I am not going to turn into a Meteor 'spotter' for this (check out the bricks) PC

[Noyade]

However the print looks as if has censorship as the fitting hanging down looks like part of a harness yet no real canopy/rails detail.

I dismissed the Meteor in my early searches, so I was surprised when I saw Megan's post late yesterday suggesting it again. But yes, the panel lines all fit the Meteor. I printed a darkened image of it and yes, the censor has gone to town with this photo. To my eyes the bottom left looks like an elephant with testicular cancer and there is absolutely no trace of the sliding canopy, seat and front framing -?


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x563/20230813_135146_68753c41cddf3e807be2395282e3ac8887ddcd44.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x662/scan1420_ea2d3458d2b21ae0235dff1626fb3fbd3e3f3c6c.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x609/gloster_f_8_meteor_f8_brazil_air_force_an1198897_e676b0cda3c 996c880ab883fcc5a2d1f215227a8.jpg

Seen at Temora last year...

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x789/megan_64721afba45d2154c5ba470e745b097545ccc34f.jpg



Fascinating photo intertidal - thanks for posting! :ok:

[intertidal]

once again amazing sleuthing from the forum
I have just heard from my mother/aunts that they think the chap is probably named Alec, and a close friend of my G/father (possibly BM at wedding) and that he was an RAF test pilot and killed in the 1950s. we await more detaiils from the Aunts collective.
my G/f was not in the RAF but his brother (to whom he was very close) was, and was lost flying a Mosquito so I guess that this hangs together: The early jets would have been a natural progression from the mosquito (?) and I suppose that following the loss of brother, mutual friends/brothers-in-arms would have become all the closer. Probably this Alec chap was on Mosquitoes with the brother beforehand

the apparently censored photograph adds significant further intrigue. Hitherto, we had assumed that this shot was taken by my G/father (who had own darkroom etc) but it seems more likely that it was an "official" RAF shot ?
absolutely amazing work on the ID work though thank you very much all
hopefully further details of the chap (ideally surname!) to follow

[intertidal]

Re the panel this does look like a Meteor and on the other side was possibly a step. However the print looks as if has censorship as the fitting hanging down looks like part of a harness yet no real canopy/rails detail. The surface underneath (looks like bricks) and not very serviceable. Suspect airbrush removal of poss e-seat. Sorry Brian I am not going to turn into a Meteor 'spotter' for this (check out the bricks) PC

Are you suggesting that the brick surface upon which the aircraft seems to be parked could be "fake" in order to confuse possible location-finding?

[Kent Based]

The slope on the canopy rail seems too shallow for the single seater. Is this possibly a two seater T Mk.7 ? Wouldn't an early meteor be pre bulky/high ejector seats? I have seen cockpit images of two seaters with low backs that would not be fully visible from the angle that this photo was taken.

Doesn't explain where the main canopy is though. The forward fixed windscreen is just out of shot to the right.

[POBJOY]

Are you suggesting that the brick surface upon which the aircraft seems to be parked could be "fake" in order to confuse possible location-finding?

Not at all it is the most 'original' part of the image, and does in itself tell a tale, as did the harness hanging down from above.
The bricks are a classic Dutch/Belgium feature and would reduce the number of poss airfields to a sensible number. Meteors did not go forward like the Typhoons/Tempest to take over former enemy fields and would have required special facilities (fuel being one, and a reasonable surface to fly off),this could be a war time or post war image although the censor bit hints to the former, plus the Meteor would have been quite a security minded aircraft then.

[Self loading bear]

This is a little gem I found
https://youtu.be/0SJ3FjIIdhU

[Liffy 1M]

The slope on the canopy rail seems too shallow for the single seater. Is this possibly a two seater T Mk.7 ? Wouldn't an early meteor be pre bulky/high ejector seats? I have seen cockpit images of two seaters with low backs that would not be fully visible from the angle that this photo was taken.

Doesn't explain where the main canopy is though. The forward fixed windscreen is just out of shot to the right.

Only the single-seat Meteors had guns in the nose and the photo includes the aft end of the panels that cover the guns, so it's not a two-seater.

[Self loading bear]

I found this report of 616 squadron.
They operated from Gilze-Rijen for a short time.
Two As (for Alec?) are being mentioned
Wing commander A. McDowall or F/O A. Stodhart.
Portret of McDowal at the end. Could be him?
Could be not!616 sq (https://www.airstrip-b91.nl/de-operationele-dagboeken-van-het-616e-squadron-van-1-april-1945-t-m-30-april-1945/)

[intertidal]

I found this report of 616 squadron.
They operated from Gilze-Rijen for a short time.
Two As (for Alec?) are being mentioned
Wing commander A. McDowall or F/O A. Stodhart.
Portret of McDowal at the end. Could be him?
Could be not!616 sq (https://www.airstrip-b91.nl/de-operationele-dagboeken-van-het-616e-squadron-van-1-april-1945-t-m-30-april-1945/)
Just amazing. thanks all so much for the enthusiasm in this. The brick surface made me think when I first saw the photo. just didn't look British and I immediately thought netherlands too. although they do go in for the zigzag bond more in NL and that seems to be straight cobble bond
still awaiting Aunties memory spooling up,.. certainly could be McDowal - Both faces have a distinctive conk anyway!

[chevvron]

What a fascinating account.

[BEagle]

This is Andrew McDowall:


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/470x600/8831160825163127p_d69d4b318f8cf9cda35c00ef7f49989cf5b73986.j pg

[intertidal]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x1555/whatsapp_image_2023_08_14_at_20_16_02_0553bc9a7bfe0ddf5d9354 3537a1c42780f0b090.jpeg
Aunty L has sent a slightly improved pic of this photo. Investigation not assisted by me being at one end of UK and her being at tother.
some glazing is evident in this shot likewise the "elephants bollock" feature at lower left of shot... possibly the photo was not after all censored ?? profuse apologies for poor qual of initial photo.
Infuriatingly, there apparently *is* some pencil notes on the rear of the pic but they do not seem to bear any relation to the photo.

[POBJOY]

Obviously an 'ace' with the iron !!!,pleased I was correct about the strap ! Interesting about the small panel by his left shoulder. This is definitely a mirror of the other side 'step'. I wonder if was intended as an option.

[sycamore]

PBJ, naaahhh,they just folded the plans wrong..
Remember,you always mount your `horse` from the left side.

PM for you.....

[intertidal]

Excuse the perhaps unnecesary extra pictorial details here, I did consider cropping but context is nice too. Aunty L has done some more digging and we've identified the chap with the Meteor as Alec Davies:

first a pic of G/f wedding, June 23rd 1945 in Letchworth:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x832/stan_wedding_e908aadef167fb21db948f143392cb068a51eeb8.jpg
And write-up of wedding:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x2000/stanswedding_writeup_b610384179eed04db58df2afb2786eff8bfe989 e.jpg
Flew home from Germany - so it becomes more likely that the cobbled surface in the photo is indeed "Continental". Although if so, a casual snap taken on an active air base in war time seems quite unusual. especially as he seems to be holding a chart in plain view

And the sad loss of best man Alec in February 1950:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/782x949/alec_loss_6664665580a63949babfc3e58c78f64c513722e7.jpg
(although I had naturally assumed that his would have been one of the many accidents of testing new jet aircraft)
with this data I found the record of the accident on ASN:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/245684

it would be interesting to find out whether Alec Davies was in 248 sqdn with "Uncle Bob" earlier in the war, I understand that they (bridegroom, groom's brother Robert and Alec) were very close friends hence why he "stood-in" for Robert at the (delayed) wedding after it was discovered that Robert was likely K.I.A.

[intertidal]

Intertidal,have you considered getting your g-fthrs brothers Service record ,which should give more information.There is `a gOV.UK` ,Application Forms..

Yes, have done this. we have a lot of his letters home and a fairly comprehensive "track" of his flying career. this exercise was really an effort to get some background on this other chap and how he "fitted in". Clearly he was close to the brothers (my G/f & G/Uncle).
Theirs was a somewhat interesting war story, the older Brother (my G/uncle) appears to have been the dashing pilot in "full public view". Wheras the younger brother (my G/father) was (we think) disallowed from joining RAF for active service alongside his Brother in view of his employment at British Tab who were then an effective front organisation for making the eqpt for BP decryption efforts. Family anecdotary history relates that the younger brother very much wanted to fly in the RAF but he was actually working at BP through the war, and that (true to form of Churchill's "Geese") he never mentioned a word of it through the remainder of his life. A sharp contrast of the public war and the secret war shown in 2 brothers.