Quebec C152 spin on take off

[ATC Watcher]

Fortunately student pilot survived . Lot to learn on this perfect spin entry,
https://globalnews.ca/video/9869821/small-plane-crashes-at-quebec-city-airport-during-landing-pilot-injured

[RatherBeFlying]

Seat sliding back?

[India Four Two]

“… taken to hospital with non-life threatening injuries. “

Very lucky!

[ATC Watcher]

Seat sliding back?
my first thought too, a few happened long time ago but I thought there was an AD on 172s restricting seat movement after those and that the problem was fixed . But I am not an expert on 172s.
very lucky indeed.

[India Four Two]

Every Cessna I’ve flown in the last forty years has had a pin in the pilot’s seat track, preventing the seat from moving too far back.

[B2N2]

Hard to tell depth perspective from the video but maybe a little too eager to avoid the trees at the end?
Instructors worst nightmare witnessing this.
Knock on wood never had a student prang one on my watch.
*Shivers*

[Capt Fathom]

Seat sliding back?
How far does a seat slide in a C150/152?

[treadigraph]

Yup it's a 152. Lot of flap I think, go around or a truly enormous bounce?

[MechEngr]

I've been looking at the video and the airport image and I don't see how he should have gotten near any trees at all. There is a sign 06-24 in the foreground and what looks like a gate #34 painted on the pavement indicating he was nearly perpendicular to 06-24 crossing at 2000 feet or so from the nearest end. The ends of all the runways are completely clear of trees. The gate indicator is odd - the Google Maps image shows them clearly triangular, but in the video it looks rectangular. The map data says it's from 2023, but there is a lot of construction going on.

There's no chance he tried to take off from the 06-24 taxiway, right?

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7943089,-71.3903188,1729m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

[treadigraph]

https://twitter.com/fl360aero/status/1686404764031225856?s=20

Probably not anywhere near trees, camera foreshortening?

[unmanned_droid]

I thought it looked like a low power takeoff leading to a stall?

Yes I think he's well in front of the tree line.

[Pilot DAR]

I have corrected the airplane type in the title, it was either a 150 or a 152.

The seat will not slide far enough back in a 150/152 to get the pilot out of reach of the controls (other than a shorter pilot might not reach the pedals fully). The 150 series were not affected by the AD for secondary seat restrictors. The flap setting looks acceptable (not fully extended). The airplane rolled off with torque, which is normal if you fly it that way. From the snippet of video I watched, I opine that the pilot pulled the airplane very sharply up, resulting in a sudden reduction of airspeed, which was not restored by lowering the nose (it wasn't enough altitude for that in any case). The C150/152 does not have much inertia, and will slow down really quickly. The airplane became a kite in the wind for a brief moment, then did exactly what it would be expected to do. From the moment the airplane appears hanging in the sky in the brief video, it would not be recoverable to flight again - it was going to hit in any case. But better reaction could have resulted in a crash straight ahead instead.

[DaveReidUK]

I have corrected the airplane type in the title, it was either a 150 or a 152.

1978 Cessna 152, per the photos in the media.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/510x288/c_fnbp_2eabd6da150bb1ce37bbc7305b88898fe922a2d3.jpg


Small plane crashes at airport in Quebec City | CTV News (https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/small-plane-crashes-at-airport-in-quebec-city-1.6502128)

[netstruggler]

I thought it looked like a low power takeoff leading to a stall?

Yes I think he's well in front of the tree line.


The press article in the original post quotes Airport Authorities as saying:

...the crash happened during a landing manoeuvre at 9:20 a.m.

That information could be wrong of course.
​​​​​​​

[MechEngr]

Still - the flight path is nearly perpendicular to the runway and well aligned with the gate marking. There must have been something prior to this that caused the camera guy to start recording.

[EXDAC]

Classic trim stall early in a go-around? It's certainly a risk in the 182 but it's a long time since I flew a 152 and I don't remember how much it pitched up if the wheel was not held forward.

[ShyTorque]

I agree with EXDAC; it appears to be a botched go-around, which might account for it being well off the runway heading. It looked like it had a lot of flap down.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Kudos to the camera person...How many of us would've been running towards it?..Yeah.I know it's a controlled field but still...:)
And a negative for filming (I suppose, inevitably, these days) in portrait format. Landscape would have given more horizontal context.

[340drvr]

Do we know if this was a go-around, or a first takeoff? Control lock left in place could be a possibility, too. It's been too many years, I don't recall where the elevator is positioned with the Cessna control lock installed? (Maybe neutral elevator, which would prevent rotation for takeoff)

[ETOPS]

Do we know if this was a go-around, or a first takeoff?

I’m going for botched touch and go during circuit training.

I wouldn’t let a student do solo touch and goes until they had demonstrated a consistent and methodical approach to the vital actions and I had demonstrated the recovery from inadvertently leaving the flaps down. They got to practice that as we operated from a 600 m grass strip and stop wasn’t always the safe option.

[adnoid]

Do we know if this was a go-around, or a first takeoff? Control lock left in place could be a possibility, too. It's been too many years, I don't recall where the elevator is positioned with the Cessna control lock installed? (Maybe neutral elevator, which would prevent rotation for takeoff)

It's been decades since I flew a 152 but as I recall the lock position was slightly AND.

[Maoraigh1]

The C150/152 control lock fits behind the yoke and holds it solid. The standard one is unmissable from the seats with its warning plate.

[BrogulT]

If you go around (or touch and go) and forget to put few strokes forward on the trim wheel, you'll have to push. That's a hard way to learn that lesson. I wonder how long the stall warning was going off?

[henra]

Still - the flight path is nearly perpendicular to the runway and well aligned with the gate marking. There must have been something prior to this that caused the camera guy to start recording.
That is exactly what makes me scratch my head. His flight path appears to be oriented 90° to what I would expect in a take off or t&g. How did he end up in that direction? Something apparently went really strange already before the part which we see in the vid I would assume.

[visibility3miles]

I was trying to land a Cessna 172 at a small uncontrolled runway with a stiff crosswind near the limit of what the plane (and I) could do.

First approach, wasn’t going to work, so I went around.

Second approach, much better, but I was pushing so hard on the rudder that the seat slipped back a notch.

Note: I am short, 5’ 4”, so perhaps I had pulled the seat forward of where the pins were.

Still, seat slips back a notch before it latches again, and I instantly go around, immediately thinking of alternate airports that face more directly into the wind.

I knew that if the seat slipped all the way back, the instinct is to grab the yoke to pull yourself forward, which usually ends badly.

I decide to give it one more try, and due to a slight hill upwind of the runway blocking the wind, I manage a smooth landing.

If I’d had any more trouble, I would have gone elsewhere in a heartbeat.

[visibility3miles]

The C150/152 control lock fits behind the yoke and holds it solid. The standard one is unmissable from the seats with its warning plate.

If you check if the controls are free and correct, there is not a chance that you you miss the control lock. Plus, it is staring you in the face when you get in the plane.

[ehwatezedoing]

If you check if the controls are free and correct, there is not a chance that you you miss the control lock. Plus, it is staring you in the face when you get in the plane.
On a side note and not saying that was the case there. I have heard of big nails with no flag used as control lock before :rolleyes:

[VH-MLE]

I've long given up the thought that things can't be missed, no matter how obvious the manufacturer tries to make it. The only defence is disciplined use of checklists - EVERYTIME...

[NoelEvans]

Do we know if this was a go-around, or a first takeoff? Control lock left in place could be a possibility, too. It's been too many years, I don't recall where the elevator is positioned with the Cessna control lock installed? (Maybe neutral elevator, which would prevent rotation for takeoff)

C150/152/172 control lock locks the elevator full 'nose down'. (I can't think of any control locks that I know that are not full 'nose down'.)

[NoelEvans]

The C150/152 seat does not slide as easily as some of the larger aircraft (C172, etc.)

That flap setting was not a first take-off. So it looks like a go-around without the full power pitch up being controlled. Holding the nose position no higher than the horizon through the entire go-around until after 'cleaned up' is really, really important and should be fully trained before solo.

[Sue Vêtements]

The C150/152 control lock fits behind the yoke and holds it solid. The standard one is unmissable from the seats with its warning plate.

. . . and covers the ignition

[1southernman]

C150/152/172 control lock locks the elevator full 'nose down'. (I can't think of any control locks that I know that are not full 'nose down'.)
IIRC the elevator is held neutral ish with the lock in on most if not all CE's...Don't recall the mechanism for Citations...If you use the lapbelt for the long lost proper lock then the elevator is full up and ailerons full roll left https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

[NoelEvans]

IIRC the elevator is held neutral ish with the lock in on most if not all CE's...Don't recall the mechanism for Citations...If you use the lapbelt for the long lost proper lock then the elevator is full up and ailerons full roll left https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
The control lock on the C152 is in a "nose down" position.

It was like that on the first C150 that I flew in 1972.

It was like that on the C152 that I flew today.

The control lock was NOT an issue with this incident.

Full stop.

I insisted on very late go-arounds with two students today and only because they demonstrated very well that they could control the pitch up with full power did I allow them to go solo.

(I don't care what all you 'keyboard pilots' think. That crash had nowt to do with a 'first take off' or the control lock. It appeared to be all due to the ability to control the pitch up from full power following a go-around. Why else would an aeroplane be attempting to climb with landing flap? But then, this is PPRuNe, with the 'Professional' missing from the first "P", isn't it??))

[ShyTorque]

Not all of us are “keyboard pilots”, thank you very much. :=

[1southernman]

The control lock on the C152 is in a "nose down" position.

It was like that on the first C150 that I flew in 1972.

It was like that on the C152 that I flew today.

The control lock was NOT an issue with this incident.

Full stop.

I insisted on very late go-arounds with two students today and only because they demonstrated very well that they could control the pitch up with full power did I allow them to go solo.

(I don't care what all you 'keyboard pilots' think. That crash had nowt to do with a 'first take off' or the control lock. It appeared to be all due to the ability to control the pitch up from full power following a go-around. Why else would an aeroplane be attempting to climb with landing flap? But then, this is PPRuNe, with the 'Professional' missing from the first "P", isn't it??))
Your original post said "full down" twice...I didn't make a judgement on whether the gust lock was in but just questioned the "full down" part...From the short video it "appeared" that flaps were something close to landing config so I'm guessing GA also...Anyway I'm confident my rusty flying skills are much better than my current hunt and peck keyboard ones...BTW I don't get the disrespect and rudeness...Pretty easy to make your point w/o all that...From one of my fav TV mini series "Lonesome Dove" Capn Call says: "I hate rude behavior in a man...I won't tolerate it"...And finally another movie quote: "That's all I have to say bout that" ...

[megan]

The control lock on the C152 is in a "nose down" position152 manual page 7-15 states the control lock will lock ailerons and elevator in a neutral position.

[NoelEvans]

152 manual page 7-15 states the control lock will lock ailerons and elevator in a neutral position.
Quote from C152 manual page 7-15:
"Installation of the lock will secure the ailerons in a neutral position and the elevators in a slightly trailing edge down position."

The elevators are not locked in a neutral position. (That 'slightly' would actually be a large 'nose down' in flight.)

END.

[Pilot DAR]

It's been fairly well established that the airplane was in controlled flight, albeit very poorly controlled - the airplane couldn't get there with the control lock installed. The correct control lock for a 152 blocks the ignition (by design), so starting it would be very difficult. If you got it going down the runway with the control lock in, the "neutral" (lower) position that the elevator would be locked in would prevent the nose being raised for anything like a normal takeoff. I've never tried it, but I opine that getting the airplane airborne with the control lock installed would not be possible.

There certainly have been some silly "took off with the controls locked" accidents - I'm confident that this accident was not that.

[NutLoose]

my first thought too, a few happened long time ago but I thought there was an AD on 172s restricting seat movement after those and that the problem was fixed . But I am not an expert on 172s.
very lucky indeed.

Not really on topic as it was a 152, I cannot remember if it was an AD, but there was an SI mod that came out, it fitted an inertia seatbelt underneath the seat that was bolted to the floor so if the seat slipped it would lock.
https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/CE-09-10
A Gotcha on the 172 and 182 etc is the doors, when you get in and push the locking lever flush with the door armrest locking the door, it means the outside door handle cannot be opened.
You need the locking arm lifting inside to allow the external handle to work, not great if you never had time to open the door and people are trying to reach you. Try it next time ( on one door only ) and be aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maoraigh1
The C150/152 control lock fits behind the yoke and holds it solid. The standard one is unmissable from the seats with its warning plate.

The warning plate also blanks off the mag key IIRC and if put in back to front, the throttle.


..

[Piper.Classique]

Not all of us are “keyboard pilots”, thank you very much. :=
Quite.

[1southernman]

Quote from C152 manual page 7-15:
"Installation of the lock will secure the ailerons in a neutral position and the elevators in a slightly trailing edge down position."

The elevators are not locked in a neutral position. (That 'slightly' would actually be a large 'nose down' in flight.)

END.

OK...Thanks for the apology :)...

[megan]

Must have been an amendment Noel.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/532x842/ab269_7624bb606e322cf08f7188f9d988807bdbe0eb19.png

[Teddy Robinson]

Not sure if anyone else has picked this up yet ?
There appears to be a considerable left rudder deflection throughout the accident sequence.
TR

[treadigraph]

Very hard to be sure from the quality of the video but certainly looks like some left rudder there Teddy, also possibly up elevator just before the break - almost as though it was a deliberate spin entry. Maybe trying to correct one thing (drift?) and not noticing something else (pitch) going awry, overload in an relatively unfamiliar environment? I've been there with other activities...!