Virgin auto throttle - notepad - fuel control switch oopsie

[Gin Jockey]

How has this not made it on here yet?

Picture the throttle quadrant on a 737. Thrust levers, and fuel control switches (the newer penis-y style). But also with a stiff notepad sitting behind the thrust levers in cruise.

Top of descent, thrust reduces, auto throttle moves back. Notepad pushed back by Thrust levers and contacts a fuel control switch. MOVING 1 TO THE CUTOFF POSITION. OOOPS!

[Switchbait]

When I saw the company notice, it did give me a damn good laugh!!

Clowns.

[BuzzBox]

Kind of similar to the A350 engine shutdown issue a few years back, caused by pilots spilling their coffee over the centre console:

EASA Instructs A350 Operators To Install Cockpit Coffee Protection (https://simpleflying.com/a350-cockpit-coffee-protection/)

[stilton]

Surprised that could happen, never flew the 737 but the 757 and 767 fuel switches could not easily be shut off in that manner

They had to be positively lifted up and over a very rugged latch to turn the fuel off

[TWT]

Reminded me of the RAF Voyager

https://www.flightglobal.com/camera-trouble-led-to-raf-voyager-grounding-investigation-finds/112702.article


The UK Royal Air Force halted operations with its brand-new Airbus A330 Voyager tanker/transports for 12 days last month after a pilot’s improperly-stowed camera became jammed next to one of its side-stick controls in flight and caused a sudden loss of altitude, according to a newly-published report

[maggot]

Surprised that could happen, never flew the 737 but the 757 and 767 fuel switches could not easily be shut off in that manner

They had to be positively lifted up and over a very rugged latch to turn the fuel off
Never flew it but surprised?
Well there ya go

It's all very poorly designed.

[tdracer]

Surprised that could happen, never flew the 737 but the 757 and 767 fuel switches could not easily be shut off in that manner

They had to be positively lifted up and over a very rugged latch to turn the fuel off
I'm reasonably sure the 737 uses a similar device. However the little lugs that prevent inadvertent movement do get damaged/broken, such that it's no longer necessary to pull the lever out to move it. The switch should be replaced when that sort of damage occurs, but I bet a lot of them don't...

[Mach E Avelli]

Then there was the B732 crew who decided to 're rack' a radar screen which in those old clunkers lived between the throttles and centre panel. They were on descent with the throttles at near idle. They got the radar box jammed half way & couldn't get the throttles forward for approach. Somewhat panicked, they demolished the stuck radar box with the crash axe to get it free.
Worth a DCM, that one.

[dejapoo]

Happened on the 717 in WA circa 2006? Remember doing your jepp amendments at work?? A few minutes later they realised during the restart a fuel control switch was off.. bloggs or renurpp may clear up my foggy details...

[maggot]

I'm reasonably sure the 737 uses a similar device. However the little lugs that prevent inadvertent movement do get damaged/broken, such that it's no longer necessary to pull the lever out to move it. The switch should be replaced when that sort of damage occurs, but I bet a lot of them don't...
Yeah I've seen multiple writeups for start levers that 'bounce' out of position
'for crew info checked within limits'

[megan]

Objects in the cockpit can certainly cause you trouble, even the seemingly most innoxious.

Chap flying a Bell 212 helicopter had placed his pencil on the centre console, upon lowering the collective it caught the pencil which had vibrated so a portion was hanging over the edge of the console, the console edge acted as a fulcrum and the pencil was caught under the fuel governor switch (a latched switch that had to be lifted to move past a detent), lifting it out of AUTO into MANual, which of course then lead to a massive overspeed and hence trashed engine.

The following video accident was caused by an IPad that was dropped and jammed the pedals, fatal to the crew.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1838x1204/image_6e7bfba476d90e8ba0ae3a7ea9273e22987f2c6a_jpeg_14ecf374 e590781c5aacbb5b644949c48c9cd235.jpg


https://youtu.be/7sOFeyDHbpE

[dejapoo]

Speaking of choppers... one of our ringers got his chopper licence. Whilst having smoko with it idling, swag strapped in pax seat of the R22, it vibrated itself on to something and away she went. Airborne then inverted into Terra firma.

[maui]

Twelve responses and no one has commented on the poor discipline and rank stupidity of someone placing anything on the quadrant, for any reason any time.
mutter mutter

Maui

[ScepticalOptomist]

Twelve responses and no one has commented on the poor discipline and rank stupidity of someone placing anything on the quadrant, for any reason any time.
mutter mutter

Maui

Well, common sense / good airmanship is in short supply these days - as long as we’re ticking the inclusivity / quota boxes, everything else is just noise. :ugh:

[SHVC]

What is most surprising here, nothing in the media. Surely a passenger would have noticed at least. If this was a QF aircraft it be plastered everywhere.

[PoppaJo]

If the tail doesn’t have a Roo to Star on the tail, then nobody cares. I’m not joking, Virgin do a good job keeping out of the bad press, they must have a good PR dept!

Even Bonza who have been pretty ordinary lately on the performance front, seems to have escaped any media whipping. Perhaps they need to slap an orange star on the back.

[BuzzBox]

What is most surprising here, nothing in the media. Surely a passenger would have noticed at least. If this was a QF aircraft it be plastered everywhere.


I doubt the pax would have noticed if it occurred at top of descent and the thrust was reducing anyway. One engine reduced thrust a bit more than the other!

[fdr]

Twelve responses and no one has commented on the poor discipline and rank stupidity of someone placing anything on the quadrant, for any reason any time.
mutter mutter

Maui

yeah, but, Maui, its your team that put a bit of FOD in the water and pulled up a bloody big island, with extra vowels and cloud to go all round!

[Occy]

Surprised that could happen, never flew the 737 but the 757 and 767 fuel switches could not easily be shut off in that manner

They had to be positively lifted up and over a very rugged latch to turn the fuel off


They are exactly the same design as the 75/767 on this model.

[Capn Bloggs]

Happened on the 717 in WA circa 2006? Remember doing your jepp amendments at work?? A few minutes later they realised during the restart a fuel control switch was off.. bloggs or renurpp may clear up my foggy details...
It twasn't me but I do know the captain and he is still shocked to this day that it happened. He was a very prof operator. IIRC all that could be assumed was that the fuel switch was left sitting on the gate lug and eventually was bumped off an hour or so into the flight. We were reminded that the FCOM said "jiggle it to make sure it is locked on".

There was also the case of the AFM (now that is studying!) taking a swan dive off the coaming panel, bumping off (I think) one of TDRacer's worn-out fuel switches. Switch guards were designed and fitted pronto after that. :D

[mates rates]

Had Boeing stayed with the original start switches this would not have happened as the gate was much safer!! 😆 🤷

[dejapoo]

It twasn't me but I do know the captain and he is still shocked to this day that it happened. He was a very prof operator. IIRC all that could be assumed was that the fuel switch was left sitting on the gate lug and eventually was bumped off an hour or so into the flight. We were reminded that the FCOM said "jiggle it to make sure it is locked on".

There was also the case of the AFM (now that is studying!) taking a swan dive off the coaming panel, bumping off (I think) one of TDRacer's worn-out fuel switches. Switch guards were designed and fitted pronto after that. :D

Agreed. Total gentleman.

TDR? TLA?

[Zinfandel]

Delta had a double engine shutdown on a B717 due to an EFB on the fuel levers. They were aware of the issue Cobham had but didn’t implement the mod (cover) that Cobham did post their event.

[compressor stall]

The opposite can happen.

A320 pulled up at the gate. #1 start lever jammed. No rearward movement. Would not shut down.

Head scratching and discussion ensuing as to best course of subsequent action when the eagle eyed jump seater noticed a small difference between the two levers.

Close investigation revealed a tiny stone had wedged itself on the rear side of the lever (effectively invisible to the flight crew) preventing movement.

Likely source was the tread of a jump seater’s shoe on the rear of the centre console and rattling into the depression behind the lever.

[megan]

Delta had a double engine shutdown on a B717Not thinking of the Delta 767 out of LAX 30 June 87, Captain some how turned off both fuel switches at 1,600 ft on take off, recovered at 600 ft, unable to find the report.

[Lead Balloon]

Many moons ago, a squadron which will remain nameless operated a triple-engined aircraft of a type which will remain nameless. The centre console of the type includes an emergency leading edge slats extension switch.

On returning to the cockpit after a comfort break during cruising flight, the pilot - who will remain nameless - caught the toe of his shoe on that switch while climbing back into 0A.

The aircraft slowed, quite quickly. Disconcerting for POB. Not good for the leading edge slats to be extended at cruise speed.

After that, one of those rocket switch safety covers was retrofitted to the fleet.

[BuzzBox]

Many moons ago, a squadron which will remain nameless operated a triple-engined aircraft of a type which will remain nameless. The centre console of the type includes an emergency leading edge slats extension switch.

On returning to the cockpit after a comfort break during cruising flight, the pilot - who will remain nameless - caught the toe of his shoe on that switch while climbing back into 0A.

The aircraft slowed, quite quickly. Disconcerting for POB. Not good for the leading edge slats to be extended at cruise speed.

After that, one of those rocket switch safety covers was retrofitted to the fleet.

As I recall, the switch already had a safety cover, but the switch and the safety cover operated in the same direction, so it was possible to lift the cover and flip the switch all in one action. Said pilot managed to do exactly that when he caught the edge of the safety cover with his shoe as he got back into the seat. The fix was to rotate the safety cover 180° so the cover opened in one direction and the switch then had to be flipped in the opposite direction. And no, it wasn’t me!

[Lead Balloon]

My recollection of what a friend of a friend said he heard someone say, in an ablution facility after the event, is that there was a circa USD6,000 per aircraft modification kit issued after the event, which kit included the safety covered switch and wiring to replace the original switch. So, according to what the friend of the friend overheard, it was not as simple as rotating an existing safety cover.

But only the people who were there will know the truth.

[Mach E Avelli]

My recollection of what a friend of a friend said he heard someone say, in an ablution facility after the event, is that there was a circa USD6,000 per aircraft modification kit issued after the event, which kit included the safety covered switch and wiring to replace the original switch. So, according to what the friend of the friend overheard, it was not as simple as rotating an existing safety cover.

But only the people who were there will know the truth.
Rotating the switch cover was likely a 20 dollar 20 minute fix. The $6000 was probably the usual aviation need to make mountains out of molehills, such as appointing
​​multiple teams of experts to have meetings to approve, then having them submit to some higher authority to approve, then raising manual amendments via some convoluted process, plus maintenance personnel and pilot retraining etc. Can't be seen to do it on the cheap.

[Lead Balloon]

True.

But that wouldn't explain why the modification kit, mentioned by the someone overheard by my friend of a friend in the ablution facility, contained components that had to be retrofitted to the aircraft.

I suppose we're never likely to hear from anyone with first-hand knowledge of the truth.

[Mach E Avelli]

One great fix I saw was on a fleet of Pommy Vickers Viscounts. The stopwatch was prone to breakage by fat fingered pilots, so some engineer fitted clockwork egg timers to the panels. It was better than the stopwatch because even the totally mechanically challenged could work it, and a bell rang. Very useful for holding patterns and fuel crossfeeding. Somehow I don't think it was CAA approved.

[HOVIS]

Then there was the B732 crew who decided to 're rack' a radar screen which in those old clunkers lived between the throttles and centre panel. They were on descent with the throttles at near idle. They got the radar box jammed half way & couldn't get the throttles forward for approach. Somewhat panicked, they demolished the stuck radar box with the crash axe to get it free.
Worth a DCM, that one.
The story I heard was that it was a Big Airways Trident or 1-11.

[Mach E Avelli]

The story I heard was that it was a Big Airways Trident or 1-11.
It’s possible it was a BAC 1-11 because the radar was similarly located. Also, the incident was attributed to a certain Irish Airline but that was when Irish jokes were acceptable, so who knows? However, it did happen. I recall reading a report on it.. The report is unlikely to have named the airline.
So, as to aircraft type and the culprit, not sure.

[BuzzBox]

But only the people who were there will know the truth.

I was there at the time. I can’t remember if it needed an entirely new switch & cover, but the problem was fixed by making sure the cover and switch operated in different directions so that two distinct actions were required to operate the emergency slats. That was not the case before the mod, when the cover and switch could be operated in one action.

[Lead Balloon]

Then yours is the best evidence there is. I wasn't there from '89 to '93, so I couldn't provide the kind of first-hand insight you are providing.

The modification kits are clearly fake news. That's the last time I rely on what a friend of a friend tells me what he heard someone say in an ablution facility.

[VHOED191006]

(the newer penis-y style).


Possibly one of the best descriptions I've heard so far for the new design.

[Zinfandel]

Not thinking of the Delta 767 out of LAX 30 June 87, Captain some how turned off both fuel switches at 1,600 ft on take off, recovered at 600 ft, unable to find the report.

Nope it was a 717 and during Delta’s evaluation of portable EFBs.

[aeromech3]

One great fix I saw was on a fleet of Pommy Vickers Viscounts. The stopwatch was prone to breakage by fat fingered pilots, so some engineer fitted clockwork egg timers to the panels. It was better than the stopwatch because even the totally mechanically challenged could work it, and a bell rang. Very useful for holding patterns and fuel crossfeeding. Somehow I don't think it was CAA approved.
Had to do the same to the FE's position on a B727-200 with Aux tanks, thought it was a bit of a personal preference, but then years later another FE on classic style B747 overlooked his fuel balance trick and engines wound down, luckily regained, but he was grounded.

[Wizofoz]

Then there was the time an F27 pilot pushed his seat back, pushing the (metal covered) flight manual and engaging the flight-control locks...

[Mach E Avelli]

Then there was the time an F27 pilot pushed his seat back, pushing the (metal covered) flight manual and engaging the flight-control locks...
He was my next door neighbour. It not only engaged the flight control locks, it removed the propeller pitch locks. Had they pulled the throttles back, they would have been in deep manure.
Fortunately in those days pilots were taught all about systems, so when the lights came on they figured it out. No doubt preceded by a WTF? moment, as the checklist hadn't thought of that scenario.

[Wizofoz]

He was my next door neighbour. It not only engaged the flight control locks, it removed the propeller pitch locks. Had they pulled the throttles back, they would have been in deep manure.
Fortunately in those days pilots were taught all about systems, so when the lights came on they figured it out. No doubt preceded by a WTF? moment, as the checklist hadn't thought of that scenario.
It was preceded by SEVERAL WTF moments- yes they figured it out, but it took several minutes,.

[Rataxes]

It was preceded by SEVERAL WTF moments- yes they figured it out, but it took several minutes,.
Well who hasn't had a WTF moment at some point in his career, Wiz?

If he figured it out eventually without having silenced a warning horn with the CB, followed by the girls coming in to tell him what was happening to the aircraft and all the passengers back there knowing what was happening as clear as a hand (or something) in front of their faces then he's probably ahead. At least he wasn't totally immersed in breakfast and The Advertiser when it happened.

Speaking of systems knowledge, if the horn on the B737 sounds at cruise altitude it is NOT the CONFIG alert.

[dejapoo]

He was my next door neighbour. It not only engaged the flight control locks, it removed the propeller pitch locks. Had they pulled the throttles back, they would have been in deep manure.
Fortunately in those days pilots were taught all about systems, so when the lights came on they figured it out. No doubt preceded by a WTF? moment, as the checklist hadn't thought of that scenario.

This the one saying goodbye to wife, kids n mistress on the wireless ?

[ad-astra]

As a VAA pilot an awakening for us all, but that's what aviation is all about, learning from others mistakes.

Flew the F27 but not in 1976 when VH-FCB made the news.
An article HERE (https://www.atsb.gov.au/sites/default/files/media/5774697/asd_100_77.pdf) regarding the F27 incident.

VALE the Aviation Safety Digest it lives HERE (https://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/aviation-safety-digest) today, but the pilots of today have truly missed out on the excitement of receiving their own copy in the mail every 3 months!

VH-FCB (https://aussieairliners.org/f-27/vh-fcb/vhfcb.html) history.

"This the one saying goodbye to wife, kids n mistress on the wireless?" - Perhaps another couple of mistakes to learn from! :)