Aztec crash near Bagby 6 July'23.

[treadigraph]

What sadly looks like a fatal light aircraft crash near Bagby.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/316539

[SWBKCB]

There's very little about the Bagby incident but this link has some drone (?) pictures - doesn't look great.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-66130906

[treadigraph]

BBC confirms one fatality, very sad...

[ETOPS]

Flightaware shows an aircraft approaching Bagby at 19.45 BST - the type tallies with the shape of the tail visible in the photo....:(

[DaveReidUK]

Flightaware shows an aircraft approaching Bagby at 19.45 BST - the type tallies with the shape of the tail visible in the photo....:(

1971 White Waltham-based Aztec G-BKJW.

[Bksmithca]

According to the news reports pilot didn't make it and looking at the picture I can understand why.

[GeeRam]

According to the news reports pilot didn't make it and looking at the picture I can understand why.

Which news reports are those?

[Expressflight]

1971 White Waltham-based Aztec G-BKJW.

Very sad to see it's that aircraft. It was owned by Alan Williams of the Rubettes from 1978 until 2019 and I operated it on air taxi work for a number of years in the early 1980s.

[Bksmithca]

Which news reports are those?


This one https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-66130906

[treadigraph]

North Yorks Aztec crash was fatal - aircraft appears to have dived in while returning to Bagby from Ireland, last ADSB signal showed ROD of nearly 3000 fpm and 238kts! Catastrophic mechanical or medical problem perhaps? No idea what the weather was like.

[Midland 331]

North Yorks Aztec crash was fatal - aircraft appears to have dived in while returning to Bagby from Ireland, last ADSB signal showed ROD of nearly 3000 fpm and 238kts! Catastrophic mechanical or medical problem perhaps? No idea what the weather was like.

I was driving past Bagby up the A19 around the time of the incident, and the weather was benign..

[7AC]

On the evening of the 6th. of July a PA 27 Aztec crashed as it neared Bagby. The sole occupant in his twenties was killed.
There appears to be little mention of this accident, except for a brief note of it in the post above.
Does anybody know more ?
I find it sad that a young pilot probably starting out could die so anonymously.

[ETOPS]

Have to say I was very surprised (and sad of course) at this news. I’ve extensive experience on most marks of the Aztec family including a single engine landing with pumping the gear down. Never felt unsafe and always enjoyed it’s no nonsense handling. I do wonder what the AAIB will find?

[treadigraph]

Certainly await AAIB's findings with interest, the aircraft had flown quite a long day down to northern France, thence to the Irish Republic and back to Bagby.

(Thanks for the tidy up! :ok:)

[DaveReidUK]

I'm not 100% convinced by that tour shown on the flight trackers.

[SWBKCB]

I'm not 100% convinced by that tour shown on the flight trackers.

Why not?

[DaveReidUK]

My scepticism is based on having recorded it on Mode S for a period on the day of the accident. If the Aztec had been where the flight trackers put it at the time in question, I shouldn't have been able to pick it up.

Could have been freak reception, I suppose, but I'm always a bit dubious about tracks constructed wholly using multilateration.

[ETOPS]

This looks like a pretty clear track...


https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/GBKJW

[treadigraph]

My scepticism is based on having recorded it on Mode S for a period on the day of the accident. If the Aztec had been where the flight trackers put it at the time in question, I shouldn't have been able to pick it up.

Could have been freak reception, I suppose, but I'm always a bit dubious about tracks constructed wholly using multilateration.
ADSB can be a bit odd too - RC-135 ZZ665 apparently stooging around over Croydon at 2 or 3000' at present - it isn't, I think it's probably in the Waddington vicinity after a hard day's monitoring in SE Europe!

[7AC]

The aircraft did indeed go to France, back to Ireland and then towards Bagby.
I have been told that the heater did not work on the previous flight and at least one
passenger complained of a strong smell of fumes on arrival in Ireland.
One of the four owners was not impressed with the lack of door seal.
The four owners are all involved in the racing industry.

[N707ZS]

Interesting to see the aircraft was registered to an owner from Henley on Themes but based at Bagby.

[B2N2]

The aircraft did indeed go to France, back to Ireland and then towards Bagby.
I have been told that the heater did not work on the previous flight and at least one
passenger complained of a strong smell of fumes on arrival in Ireland.
One of the four owners was not impressed with the lack of door seal.
The four owners are all involved in the racing industry.

If it had a janitrol heater it may have been leaking.
Either fuel fumes or maybe even CO if it was running.
I disliked those things.
The ‘66 I flew had it disabled fortunately.
With the owners having the disposable income for racing makes you wonder why they fly such an old airframe. Last Aztec was built in ‘78.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have one but for recreational purposes not depending on transportation.
Especially at lighter weights it’s a big baby on one engine, relatively speaking.

[punkalouver]

If it had a janitrol heater it may have been leaking.
Either fuel fumes or maybe even CO if it was running.
I disliked those things.
The ‘66 I flew had it disabled fortunately.
With the owners having the disposable income for racing makes you wonder why they fly such an old airframe. Last Aztec was built in ‘78.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have one but for recreational purposes not depending on transportation.
Especially at lighter weights it’s a big baby on one engine, relatively speaking.

Some owners fly aircraft that are almost 100 years old. Why not fly a nice old Aztec(or Apache) for the experience and then move on to something else, etc, etc.

[fdr]

North Yorks Aztec crash was fatal - aircraft appears to have dived in while returning to Bagby from Ireland, last ADSB signal showed ROD of nearly 3000 fpm and 238kts! Catastrophic mechanical or medical problem perhaps? No idea what the weather was like.

There is enough evidence from the newspaper image to show the stabilator is in one piece, as is the trim tab. The control linkages are pretty simple for an Aztec, I would be looking at the control continuity, but there is no external evidence of pitch failure. To lose pitch control on the aztec is I would postulate relatively remote scenario, either trim or elevator control run is sufficient to easily fly the plane. A jam is always a possibility in any control system, even iPads and yaw pedals etc.

[B2N2]

Some owners fly aircraft that are almost 100 years old. Why not fly a nice old Aztec(or Apache) for the experience and then move on to something else, etc, etc.

You didn’t read my post very well did you?
Recreational yes, depending on it for transportation no as it’s too limiting with weather conditions.
Get a Cheyenne or a KingAir.

[N707ZS]

Hope not another Emiliano Sala situation here.

[Expressflight]

If it had a janitrol heater it may have been leaking.
Either fuel fumes or maybe even CO if it was running.
I disliked those things.
The ‘66 I flew had it disabled fortunately.
With the owners having the disposable income for racing makes you wonder why they fly such an old airframe. Last Aztec was built in ‘78.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have one but for recreational purposes not depending on transportation.
Especially at lighter weights it’s a big baby on one engine, relatively speaking.

My company operated and maintained 'JW for a number of years in the 1980s, at which time it had been owned by the same person since 1974 and indeed he didn't sell it until 2019. He was very safety-conscious and no expense was spared in keeping the aircraft immaculate. It did have a Janitrol heater and as a licensed engineer myself I didn't like them as they seemed prone to breakdown and had to be scrupulously pressure tested as per the maintenance schedule. I preferred the Southwind fitted to earlier Apache/Aztec as I recall. In fact I flew down to Chateauroux from Southend one day in 'JW with no heater the whole way and had to wait until after landing to reset the circuit breaker, which normally resolved the problem. I don't like speculation of accident causes in advance of the AAIB investigation but I wouldn't disagree with your thoughts.

Regarding the aircraft's age I think it must probably have been one of the best maintained for its 'vintage' and I believe she featured in a 'Pilot' assessment not too long ago.

[punkalouver]

You didn’t read my post very well did you?
Recreational yes, depending on it for transportation no as it’s too limiting with weather conditions.
Get a Cheyenne or a KingAir.
Actually, I read your post extremely well. Not sure why you would suggest otherwise.

You said “With the owners having the disposable income for racing makes you wonder why they fly such an old airframe. Last Aztec was built in ‘78.” which is a statement to not buy an aircraft exclusively based on age.

If you were suggesting that an aircraft be purchased based on capability in your earlier post, it would have made sense to talk about airframe capability rather than just airframe age.

That being said, I see the pilot was in his twenties, so experience may be an issue. Perhaps he was building up experience(and enjoying doing so) toward an eventual Cheyenne or King Air aircraft.

[Contact Approach]

Poor young lad.

[By George]

On the 4th of April 1976 I had a runaway trim on a Aztec VH-MBU. If I remember correctly the trim cable was a nine strand affair and seven strands severed and poked through the cabin ceiling lining. The nose went down and the only way I could regain control was to lower the flaps (way outside the flap limit). With reduced power and flaps I was able to make a safe landing. The Aztec had a large nose up pitch tendency with the application of any flap up to the 'E' model. Piper then redesigned the tail plane on the 'F' model to eliminate this. If I had been in an "F' I probably wouldn't be here.

Part of the redesign of the tail plane included small horns on the leading edge and these would love to collect ice causing the control column to pump in and out. Interesting to see the accident aircraft here is an 'E'.

The janitrol heater required careful operation and would pop the circuit breaker if outside its temperamental parameters. I never liked that design.

[treadigraph]

Interesting to see the accident aircraft here is an 'E'..

It was an E, 1971.

[B2N2]

Actually, I read your post extremely well. Not sure why you would suggest otherwise.

You said “With the owners having the disposable income for racing makes you wonder why they fly such an old airframe. Last Aztec was built in ‘78.” which is a statement to not buy an aircraft exclusively based on age.

If you were suggesting that an aircraft be purchased based on capability in your earlier post, it would have made sense to talk about airframe capability rather than just airframe age.

That being said, I see the pilot was in his twenties, so experience may be an issue.

So you are suggesting the age of the pilot rather then the age of the airframe.
Right….

No matter how immaculate it is maintained there will always be 50 year old components in the aircraft with 50 years of fatigue on them.
I’m fairly certain trim cables need to be replaced every 10 years or so together with rudder cables but I’m pretty sure items like the flap torque tube do not.

[punkalouver]

No matter how immaculate it is maintained there will always be 50 year old components in the aircraft with 50 years of fatigue on them.
I’m fairly certain trim cables need to be replaced every 10 years or so together with rudder cables but I’m pretty sure items like the flap torque tube do not.

Reminds me of the still in production, young(well under 50 years old) aircraft that have been grounded over the years after crashes. Comet, DC-10, 737Max, Malibu. Tried and true can be safer sometimes than newer designs.

Aztec seems just fine to me. One just needs to operate it well within its capabilities.

[B2N2]

Aztec seems just fine to me. One just needs to operate it well within its capabilities.

I genuinely like the Aztec
Capabilities of the aircraft and of the pilot.
Any machine no matter how benign can kill if operated outside of its intended, engineered and proven envelope.
Was this aircraft turbo charged?

[DaveReidUK]

Was this aircraft turbo charged?

No. While a handful of the 220 or so UK registered Aztecs over the years have had the TIO-540, only one of them remains and it's not this one.

[fdr]

No. While a handful of the 220 or so UK registered Aztecs over the years have had the TIO-540, only one of them remains and it's not this one.

The C model used rajay turbochargers, and was still a straight IO-540, the D & E were excellent aircraft, and the rest were darn good.

[SWBKCB]

A North Yorkshire Police spokesperson said this week: "We have made three arrests in connection with the light aircraft crash which occurred on Thursday 06 July 2023 at Bagby Airfield near Thirsk. Sadly, a man aged in his 20s died following the incident. Three men aged 37, 55 and 68 were yesterday (Tuesday 12 September 2023) arrested on suspicion of manslaughter. The men were interviewed and have since been released under investigation. The investigation is led by us at North Yorkshire Police with support from the Civil Aviation Authority."

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/manslaughter-arrests-over-plane-crash-27708134

[Blue_Circle]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/manslaughter-arrests-over-plane-crash-27708134
I came looking for a thread about this having just spotted a similar article in my local paper (https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/23787223.three-men-arrested-manslaughter-aircraft-crash-near-thirsk/). All sounds a bit rum.

[CAP 10b]

How very sad to see a young man die doing something he loved. I flew "JW" a lot in the 80's from Southend with Routair/Expressflight often with Alan Williams who I remember as a very friendly gentleman. The Aztec was a solid old bus of an aeroplane, but us humans operate in an alien environment up there which can bite hard no matter how good we are. I just hope the pilot was not under any pressure to fly beyond his experience or capability, thats all. Phil S.

[Expressflight]

How very sad to see a young man die doing something he loved. I flew "JW" a lot in the 80's from Southend with Routair/Expressflight often with Alan Williams who I remember as a very friendly gentleman. The Aztec was a solid old bus of an aeroplane, but us humans operate in an alien environment up there which can bite hard no matter how good we are. I just hope the pilot was not under any pressure to fly beyond his experience or capability, thats all. Phil S.

Welcome aboard Phil - yes they were good days. I'm still in touch with Alan and have spoken to him about this accident which has saddened him greatly as it did me. I hope this new development will not result in wild speculation which will be to nobody's benefit. Definitely a case of waiting until the AAIB and Police investigations are completed I feel.

[Mike Flynn]

Reading between the lines of this story it appears there may have been maintenance issues,

​​Following the collision, an investigation led by North Yorkshire Police with support from the Civil Aviation Authority was launched.

On Wednesday, officers from North Yorkshire Police put out an update to confirm that three men aged 37, 55 and 68 were yesterday arrested on suspicion of manslaughter.The men were interviewed and have since been released under investigation.
​​​​​

I wouldn’t want to be the person who signed the maintenance off if it subsequently had an issue .The CAA and police involved means there are serious matters to resolve
Others may have worked on the aircraft but the buck rests with the licenced engineer
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23787267.three-arrested-mans-death-bagby-airfield-crash/

[Magplug]

It seems rather early for arrests on technical infringements. Is it possible this PPL was flying commercially on the 'Sharing costs' excuse. Bagby to France to Ireland and back is rather more than a PPL Navex. If he was flying passengers to Ireland commercially without a CPL and AOC then owners & operators are in deep doodoo.