Swiss Int Air Lines

[Blackbird_]

Hi!

I'm considering applying to the European Flight Academy (EFA) and selecting SWISS as my first option (from the different options in the Lufthansa Group) in order to obtain the declaration of intent to hire from the SWISS board. I would like to ask how the conditions of SWISS compare to the other Lufthansa group airlines, such as Lufthansa Mainline, Austrian, Eurowings...
I have always heard that Lufthansa Mainline is one of the best airlines in Europe. Would it maybe better to select Lufthansa as my first option and try it there?

Thank you so much in advance!

[Alsacienne]

Lufty own Swiss .............

[1201alarm]

Have a good look what you sign with EFA. The EFA training seems very expensive from what I hear, therefore apparently not a lot of uptake by young woman and men.

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/mangel-an-qualifizierten-airlines-finden-kaum-noch-pilotinnen-und-piloten

Do you owe the training cost to EFA only when Swiss mainline hires you, or do you owe the money to EFA whichever of the many Lufthansa Group Airlines offers you a job? There is also now Austrian, Brussels, Edelweiss, Cityline, Discover, Eurowings, Eurowings Malta, a new founded airline City Air - all with different and usually much worse conditions, this being one of the reasons they exist to begin with. All these Airlines have separate career systems and seniority lists. I assume you understand what that means.

Regarding your training cost: What happens if you can only join one of these many subsidiaries? What happens if you chose to not join a Lufthansa Group airline but some other competing airline? What happens if you join a non-Lufthansa-group airline because Lufthansa does not offer you a job? How long do you owe the money to EFA when they are not offering you a job?

Make sure you really get into an agreement that gives you what you want.

Also: do you do ATPL or MPL training? MPL restricts massively your options in case the airline that trained you does not want to hire you.

Check also here: Pilotenboard.de :: DLR-Test Infos, Ausbildung, Erfahrungsberichte :: operated by SkyTest® :: :: Index (http://www.pilotenboard.de)

[1201alarm]

As far as I understand, part of EFA's flight training is happening at Goodyear / Phoenix, in Arizona.

This used to be Lufthansa's famous flight school there, which then during Covid was taken over by United Airlines. It seems that United is struggling to provide enough training capacity / flight instructors. And at the same time EFA is sourcing training there?

https://liveandletsfly.com/united-aviate-academy-allegations/

What would that mean for your training schedule?

Again about your training contract: Does EFA have an obligation to complete your training within a certain time scale? And if they don't, what happens to the money you owe to EFA?

Apparently some student pilots at the time when it was still Lufthansa's flight school had massive delays in their training, which even led to lawsuits etc. Above link sounds like the situation has not improved. No instructor pilots -> no hours -> no licence.

https://www.rtl.de/cms/lufthansa-flugschueler-scheitern-vor-arbeitsgericht-ausbildung-kann-nicht-mehr-beendet-werden-4880694.html
https://www.dw.com/de/angehende-piloten-k%C3%A4mpfen-um-ihren-lebenstraum/a-60044475 (https://www.airliners.de/lufthansa-flugschueler-ausbildung/57163)

[Blackbird_]

The Lufthansa Group owns SWISS, but within the Lufthansa Group, there is another airline called Lufthansa. When I mention Lufthansa Mainline, I am specifically referring to the airline itself, not the entire group. SWISS and Lufthansa Mainline are two separate airlines, despite both being part of the same group.

[Blackbird_]

Thank you for your answers 1201alarm,

It is true that the training in EFA is really expensive but if I study there and I don't receive an offer from any Luthansa's Group airline they have to reimburse 50% of the training cost.

Yes, I know that those are different airlines with different conditions and seniority lists.
If I choose the SWISS path, they are supposed to hire me when the training is over. SWISS and the Swiss government are the ones who provide the funding for the program, not EFA. Therefore, I believe that they would be interested in hiring me after the training because the loan amount provided by SWISS is deferred and deducted from my salary as a pilot in monthly payments. The amount covered by the Swiss government does not need to be repaid.

If everything goes as planned and I am able to start a career with SWISS through their cadet program, would it be beneficial to pursue this path or should I explore other cadet programs?
I have often come across discussions in this forum where Lufthansa, KLM, and Air France are regarded as the top airlines in Europe. However, I haven't heard much about SWISS. Is SWISS also considered one of the leading European legacy carriers?

[Potatos_69]

Thank you for your answers 1201alarm,

It is true that the training in EFA is really expensive but if I study there and I don't receive an offer from any Luthansa's Group airline they have to reimburse 50% of the training cost.

Yes, I know that those are different airlines with different conditions and seniority lists.
If I choose the SWISS path, they are supposed to hire me when the training is over. SWISS and the Swiss government are the ones who provide the funding for the program, not EFA. Therefore, I believe that they would be interested in hiring me after the training because the loan amount provided by SWISS is deferred and deducted from my salary as a pilot in monthly payments. The amount covered by the Swiss government does not need to be repaid.

If everything goes as planned and I am able to start a career with SWISS through their cadet program, would it be beneficial to pursue this path or should I explore other cadet programs?
I have often come across discussions in this forum where Lufthansa, KLM, and Air France are regarded as the top airlines in Europe. However, I haven't heard much about SWISS. Is SWISS also considered one of the leading European legacy carriers?

Not sure about post covid, but pre covid SWISS had excellent conditions, maybe not to the same level as AF/KLM or mainline LH but still you would live a good life there.

look at this from a point of where do you want to live your life, and choose based on that. If you want to live in CH then definitely go Swiss and enjoy the home life there.

[1201alarm]

It is true that the training in EFA is really expensive but if I study there and I don't receive an offer from any Luthansa's Group airline they have to reimburse 50% of the training cost.

That is what I mean. Do you owe the full money even if they place you with one of the other Lufthansa Group Airlines and not Swiss or Lufthansa mainline?

I would agree with what the previous poster said. Swiss mainline or Lufthansa mainline are both good companies to work for IF you manage to get into one of them.

I might be wrong but as far as I understand you do not get any specific Airline guarantee anymore that will be offered to you. At least that is what I hear, and what you wrote above confirms this.

If you read this: https://www.aero.de/news-45428/Pilotenvertreter-sprecher-von-moeglicher-Annaeherung.html
you will see that Lufthansa management is threatening to make a new lower cost airline which then makes feeder traffic into MUC. That would mean Lufhansa mainline is not doing this feeder traffic, making your chance slimmer to get into Lufthansa mainline. So can EFA offer you this new airline, where it is unclear what your conditions would be, and you still owe the full money?

And another thing: would you owe the money if they offered you only a time limited contract (Zeitvertrag)?

May be it is different with Swiss since it is partially (and that is important: only partially) funded by the Swiss educational system.

Read carefully what the contract says, not what Swiss or Lufthansa advertise as their "intention".

Personally I would not want to pay the huge training cost if my debt is not linked to Swiss or Lufthansa mainline giving me a job. Because then I would take a much cheaper training route and keep money to spare for a typerating.

But about your question: Choose where you would want to live: FRA or MUC (=Lufthansa) or rather ZRH (=Swiss). Where would you feel home more. Beware: if you end up in Eurowings Malta, you will be based in PMI, or PRG, or some place in Scandiland - these are their bases apparently right now.

About the EFA contract: just read the fine print, and not only what happens when things go smooth.

You don't want to get stuck into a training organisation that locks you in and then only finishes your training after 4 years (I am just giving an example, not saying this is the case). Normally training to a frozen ATPL (CPL + ATPL theory) takes a bit less then 24 months.

Above link about what apparently is currently happening at United flight academy would ring some alarm bells with me, since EFA is also using this place as a place of training according to EFAs website. What happens with your debt if EFA stops training you for 9 months due to lack of training capacity (or training just takes much longer since the training schedule is thinned out)? Can you bail out, and take your money and accumulated hours elsewhere to finish training? What are EFAs obligations with regard to training schedule?

May be via www.pilotenboard.de you can get into contact with some guys currently training at EFA. There you would get a good a picture, since I can only relate hearsay and some online publications. And did I mention it already? :) Read the fine print, about what happens when things do not go as advertised.

[8314]

Apart from all above, make sure you get along with their style or you‘ll live in hell even before you kick the bucket!

[1201alarm]

BA is offering sponsored training again:

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/british-airways-zoekt-kandidaten-voor-gratis-pilotenopleiding

Didn't investigate further, but with the help of deepL I understand british passport is not a requirement the way it is written in the link.

Sounds like a much better deal than EFA.

[HURZ]

I have spent almost 35 years as pilot and was lucky enough to work for a major with good conditions.
My opinion about today’s aviation in a nut shell: Do something else and stay away from today’s aviation. The good times are over.
Finally retired, thank god!

[RexBanner]

I have spent almost 35 years as pilot and was lucky enough to work for a major with good conditions.
My opinion about today’s aviation in a nut shell: Do something else and stay away from today’s aviation. The good times are over.
Finally retired, thank god!

That’s helpful. Yes it’s not what it was but what is nowadays? I’ve got not exactly earth shattering news for you. The same deterioration that you say has happened in aviation is happening/has happened in every other industry. In the light of that I think you’ll find that compared to most other gigs the life of a pilot is still vastly better than your ordinary man on the street. My two cents.