RAF Group Captain John Cobb: a latter-day mystery

[First_Principal]

With thanks to another PPRuNer I was recently able to see the BBC documentary "Teicheadh bho Loch Nis/Escape from Loch Ness", mentioned in this thread (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/636166-catalina-stranded-loch-ness-18-oct-2020-a-2.html).

The Catalina detail was interesting, but part of the doco mentioned John Cobb's water speed record attempt on the Loch, and showed some footage of that fatal day. Briefly, while following the Crusader (constructed by Vospers and powered by a De Haviland Ghost jet engine), the footage included some frames of a somewhat pensive looking woman. Given the result of the run shown a few seconds later I found that rather poignant, and resolved to find out a little more about her along with John Cobb.

What ensued has turned into a little mystery. I'd thought it likely the woman was related to him, and may have been his wife. Research tends to support this, however the detail I've found, almost 50/50, gives the name of his (second) wife as either Vera Victoria Henderson, or Margaret Glass:

Sites giving Vera as his wife:

John Cobb, A Reluctant Hero (http://www.lesliefield.com/personalities/john_cobb_a_reluctant_hero.htm)
https://www.geni.com/people/Vera-Cobb/6000000009080643817
https://www.geni.com/people/John-Cobb/6000000007958023325
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cobb_(racing_driver)
https://people.elmbridgehundred.org.uk/biographies/john-cobb/


Sites showing Margaret as his wife:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/past-times/2507068/recalling-the-tragedy-of-john-cobbs-death-on-loch-ness-as-he-pursued-a-new-record/
https://www.bluebird-electric.net/john_cobb.htm
https://altwiki.org/en/A/John_Cobb_(racing_driver)
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0167783/bio/

Another interesting article with photographs, referencing "Mrs Cobb":

https://filmsofthefifties.com/john-cobb-a-real-life-hero-and-land-speed-record-holder-and-appeared-in-a-film/

My feeling, based on this article (http://www.lesliefield.com/personalities/john_cobb_a_reluctant_hero.htm), is that the correct answer is likely to be Vera (Vicki), however there are enough references suggesting otherwise that I think the issue deserves properly clearing up. It also raises the question; if Vera was his wife, who was Margaret Glass?

To date I've not been able to find out a lot about either of these two women, their relationship with John Cobb, or their lives subsequent to his untimely death. It seems to me they deserve better, and I wondered if perhaps someone here might have further knowledge?

In addition to that I thought that John Cobb himself seemed somewhat of an enigma. While there are a lot of words about him, and he appears a level-headed, decent and self-effacing man, there is little detail about his war years (in two years with the RAF he rose to Group Captain), and it turns out he has no gravestone of his own.

Thus, along with the query about Vera and/or Margaret, I thought his flying record may be worthy of some airing, should anyone know more on that front?

FP.

Footnote: It appears the Teicheadh bho Loch Nis footage is probably an excerpt from a British Pathé newsreel, and may be seen here.

[longer ron]

AFAIK J R Cobb was not aircrew in the RAF - he was A&SD branch (Admin and Special Duties Branch) so doubtful he rose much higher than Fl/Lt before he transferred to the ATA - where he was i believe a First Officer.He was a pre war private pilot.

From the London Gazette

1941. The undermentioned Pilot Officers are granted the war substantive rank of Flying Officer: — 9th Apr. 1941. John Rhodes COBB (81795).

Given the date of promotion to W/S F/O - I assume he joined the RAFVR very soon after war was declared,so probably did 3 or 4 years service before transferring to ATA (1943).
I have not thus far found any more London Gazette entries for him but I always find Gazette searches quite patchy.

[longer ron]

'Terry' on RAF Commands was obviously better at LG searches than I am :)

https://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?30967-John-Rhodes-Cobb-81795&highlight=john+cobb

PO on prob RAFVR (A&SD) wef 7 Jul 40
FO wef 9 Apr 41
FLt wef 1 Sep 42
Resigns his commn, retains the rank of Sqn Ldr (A&SD) wef 23 Sep 42

So looks like he made it to Acting Sqn Ldr

[First_Principal]

longer ron thanks for that, looks as if Wikipedia and others may have 'upgraded' him to Group Captain then!

This site (https://people.elmbridgehundred.org.uk/biographies/john-cobb/) claims he rec'd his private certificate in 1924 in an Anzani powered Sopwith, and Flight mag of Oct 1952 had this to say:

"....Many people in aviation got to know Cobb — and like him well
—when he was an A.T.A. ferry pilot. For a time he was in the
R.A.F. (those who saw the film Target for Tonight may remember
recognizing him in the control-room scene) but, becoming
discontented with ground duties, he applied to re-join the A.T.A.
During the last two years of the war he was flying almost every
day on a wide variety of aircraft...."

FP.

[longer ron]

Glad to help in a small way FP
Yep not sure where the 'Group Captain' originated from unless he was perhaps given an honorary rank post war - but I have not seen any suggestion of that 'online' (which of course is not absolute 'proof' of anything).
I had not heard of the Sopwith Grasshopper - cute little aeroplane,shame it did not make it into production.

cheers/regards LR

[chevvron]

'Terry' on RAF Commands was obviously better at LG searches than I am :)

https://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?30967-John-Rhodes-Cobb-81795&highlight=john+cobb



So looks like he made it to Acting Sqn Ldr
In the normal course of things, then he could have been given the honourary title of Wg Cdr but not Gp Capt.

[longer ron]

Hmmm dunno - there seems to be rules and then rules
I always thought of a 'Retained' rank as being officially allowed to use that rank in retirement,and usually would be the highest acting/tempy rank achieved during Air Force service.

Kings Regs [KR&ACI] (1943) states.....

3647 Resignation
An officer who resigns his commission will not retain any air force rank, except by permission of the Air Council under directions which H.M. the King may be pleased to give. It will be competent for the Air Council to give or withold this privilege.

So obviously John Cobb did not upset the RAF Hierarchy by resigning his commission midway through a global conflict - as the Air Council presumably gave permission for him to retain his highest achieved rank.

I have always thought of an Honorary rank/title as usually being one which has not previously been achieved in the services.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Have you searched for a will/probate for John Cobb? If not then I may have found something. Wills can often identify members of a family and their relation to the deceased..

[oxenos]

In the normal course of things, then he could have been given the honourary title of Wg Cdr but not Gp Capt.

Would his rank in the ATA have been Captain? Perhaps someone came across a reference to Captain and another to R.A.F., put 2 and2 together, got 5 and assumed it must be Group Captain.

[longer ron]

I believe he was a 'First Officer' with the ATA.

From the ATA Museum

COBB John Rhodes Pilot First Officer 23/09/1942 30/06/1945 British Operational M

The ATA did have a 'Flight Captain' rank but looks like he never got to that.

[longer ron]

Somebody is obviously keeping an eye on this thread as the wiki entry for john cobb has been edited to read 'Sqn Ldr' - it said Group Cpt just the other day :)

[First_Principal]

Have you searched for a will/probate for John Cobb? If not then I may have found something. Wills can often identify members of a family and their relation to the deceased..

I didn't do that, so if you've got something that'd add to the general body of knowledge about John Cobb and/or his wife it'd be good to know, thanks.

From a personal perspective I would also be interested to know if UK wills are freely/easily available? In my country they are, and it would have been at the top of my list to check out, but I've rarely found UK historic resources to be particularly friendly to the casual researcher from afar.

Somebody is obviously keeping an eye on this thread as the wiki entry for john cobb has been edited to read 'Sqn Ldr' - it said Group Cpt just the other day :)

Ah, that's interesting! From Sleaford, Lincolnshire by the looks of it, also altered 'pilot' to 'officer'. Pleasing to know these things can be corrected quickly although I'd probably want to quote the authoritative source were it me (and despite all the good work here it wouldn't be PPRuNe ;)

Otherwise thanks all for the input, I too have never quite figured out honorary/acting/substantive ranks and it seems to me there's a degree of 'flexibility' with some of these things, and with some people. I get the feeling in all I read that John Cobb would not be someone who'd upgrade himself, and he'd appreciate the accuracy.

Now, if we can just sort out Margaret/Vera that'd be great, hopefully Brewster's information will assist.

FP.

[chevvron]

Ah, that's interesting! From Sleaford, Lincolnshire by the looks of it, also altered 'pilot' to 'officer'. Pleasing to know these things can be corrected quickly although I'd probably want to quote the authoritative source were it me (and despite all the good work here it wouldn't be PPRuNe ;)


May be just a co-incidence but the RAF College at Cranwell is postmarked 'Sleaford' and buried in the depths of the main college building is a vast archive of historical material.
I was able to access this once when I did an ATC summer camp at Cranwell but as far as I know, it's not normally accessible to the general public.

[radar101]

Somebody is obviously keeping an eye on this thread as the wiki entry for john cobb has been edited to read 'Sqn Ldr' - it said Group Cpt just the other day :)

I cannot tell a lie - I changed it.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I've found the following entry on a probate search for 1952.

"COBB John Rhodes of 15 Arthur-street London died 29 September 1952 at Lochness Probate London 12 December to Russell Asquith Wooding solictor and Richard Sinclair Wilkins member of the London stock exchange Effect £140,239 10s 9d"

If you want a copy of the will then follow this link to the search page Probate Search (https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/search-results)

Complete the search terms of just the Surname and year of death and on the next search page year of probate - 1952

The results web page will show a negative on digital but at the bottom there should be thumbnail images of the paper probate register for 1952 starting at A. Select the thumbnail and then work your way to Cobb. You should have also have next to the full sized image a form to complete to get a copy of the will. There will be a charge.

Bear in mind that the answers you seek may not be given in the will.

BB

[First_Principal]

I cannot tell a lie - I changed it.

Oh, and the mystery was solved so easily! :) 👍

I've found the following entry on a probate search for 1952... form to complete to get a copy of the will. There will be a charge...BB

Thanks for the followup and information, which tallies with what I now recall from the last time I was trying to assist someone. Quite a different experience to what we have here, anyway I went through the process but bailed at having to 'sign up' etc (long story, amongst other things an issues with cheques - and no I've never bounced one!). Then I tried a search for Vera Cobb or Henderson with her date of death stated in the Wikipedia page .. nil result.

A search for Margaret Glass / Cobb revealed the same, so it appears there's more to do in order to resolve this. I guess it's possible that the year is wrong, they married again and had a different surname, or perhaps a different jurisdiction is involved, but hopefully with some more research we'll get a result eventually.

FP.

[Dave Ricketts]

The Esher News of the 21st March 1947 has a report of John Rhodes Cobb's ("holder of the world's land speed record") marriage. His mother was living in Esher at the time. As I am new poster I can't put a copy up. However salient point regarding his wife:
Wife: Mrs Elizabeth Mitchell-Smith, only child of the late Mr. and Mrs. Garrod Lush.

[India Four Two]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/474x1094/cobb_01a9216ca5913e8d13ac648cb57cf67455d73c36.jpg

[First_Principal]

Thanks for the info and clipping.

Elizabeth was John Cobb's first wife, of whom there seems to be no other contender. The few articles that mention her say that, sadly, she passed away a few months after their marriage.

FP.

[Pypard]

Has anyone got the book by Steve Holter? He did a very thorough job and I'd suggest that would be a great single-source.

[chevvron]

'Terry' on RAF Commands was obviously better at LG searches than I am :)

https://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?30967-John-Rhodes-Cobb-81795&highlight=john+cobb



So looks like he made it to Acting Sqn Ldr
When I was active in the RAFVR(T), I was a Fg Off and all other ranks above that were 'acting' whether Flt Lt, Sqdn Ldr or Wg Cdr.; I was a Flt Lt (Acting).
I know the rank stucture has changed nowadays but when you 'retired', you either reverted to Fg Off or you were authorised to use the highest acting rank which you had achieved; in my case I was awarded the title of 'Flt Lt RAFVR(T) Retd'.

[Pypard]

Has anyone read the book? ("Crusader"). Might get to the point and avoid lots of not-quite-on-topic fluff.

[teeteringhead]

£140,239 10s 9d Which is more than £5 million in today's money!!

[Dave Ricketts]

The Nottingham Evening News of 15th December 1952 talks about JRH's legacies. It says:
"By his will, dated August 8, 1950, made in contemplation of his intended marriage to Vera Henderson (hereinafter called his wife) he left...."

Can't post the article, due to number of posts.

The marriage is shown in Q3 1950 in Westminster on the General Registrar's Office Index.

[chevvron]

Something strange on this thread; it's showing in the list as 15 Jul last contributor 'teetering head' but on the main listing it's showing as last posting 17 Jul by 'Dave Ricketts'.
Ah it's suddenly changed.

[longer ron]

Something strange on this thread; it's showing in the list as 15 Jul last contributor 'teetering head' but on the main listing it's showing as last posting 17 Jul by 'Dave Ricketts'.
Ah it's suddenly changed.
Dave has only made 3 posts so was probably in the moderation queue before appearing,I had noticed it as well.
Dave has not been a prolific poster since joining in 2008 :)

[First_Principal]

The Nottingham Evening News of 15th December 1952 talks about JRH's legacies. It says:
"By his will, dated August 8, 1950, made in contemplation of his intended marriage to Vera Henderson (hereinafter called his wife) he left...."
The marriage is shown in Q3 1950 in Westminster on the General Registrar's Office Index.

Thanks for this detail, it would appear to sort out at least part of the mystery!

I confess to remaining slightly intrigued as to whether 'Margaret Glass' is a participant in John Cobb's life at all, or if she is simply a journalist's slip of the pen, perhaps we'll never know. Likewise Vera's life seems a closed book, which If that's the way she wanted it is fine, but to me she, or they, are deserving of a little more in the [history] account?

FP.

[Loose rivets]

I saw a B&W news of a lady with shortish dark hair standing looking at the lake. I thought she was very attractive. A voice from ? said words to the effect, It's not looking good. Her name, Tina, or Tania.

It was 70 years ago and my memory has never worked well with names.

[chevvron]

I saw a B&W news of a lady with shortish dark hair standing looking at the lake. I thought she was very attractive. A voice from ? said words to the effect, It's not looking good. Her name, Tina, or Tania.

It was 70 years ago and my memory has never worked well with names.
You may be thinking of Tonia Bern, Donald Campbell's widow.
She was a night club singer and very attractive.

[Loose rivets]

I'm sure you're right. It must have been Pathe News.