Eastern EBA

[GromDva]

G'day, I have an interview coming up with Qlink, and I'm trying to find the latest EBA.

I can only currently locate the 2019 agreement, which from my reading should have now expired.

Is the 2023 agreement still being negotiated?

Cheers

[Going Nowhere]

G'day, I have an interview coming up with Qlink, and I'm trying to find the latest EBA.

I can only currently locate the 2019 agreement, which from my reading should have now expired.

Is the 2023 agreement still being negotiated?

Cheers

Correct.

[GromDva]

Thanks for the confirmation. Any idea how far along in the negotiations they are?

[smiling monkey]

Anyone know whether companies are obliged to 'back-pay' staff dating back from the expiry date of the last EBA, if you leave before the new one is in place?

[Lapon]

Anyone know whether companies are obliged to 'back-pay' staff dating back from the expiry date of the last EBA, if you leave before the new one is in place?

They are not. They are not required to back pay regardless, its merely a negotiated item as to whether they do or not which is why they will drag negotiations out for as long as possible.

[grrowler]

Unless things have changed, EBA negotiations will generally be dragged out for minimum 12 months after expiry, and then a “take it or lose it” very ordinary offer will be made. If voted down, back pay will disappear and negotiations to another ordinary agreement will commence. Partial back pay may come out again as a “sweetener” at some point.

Having said that it’s not a terrible place to work for a bit.

[aussieflyboy]

They are absolute grubs. They won’t pay Super on any ‘back pay’ that they offer and are limiting your pay rise to 3% so that they effectively don’t pay the increases to the Super Guarantee over the next few years. The compounding loss of Super into a 20 something year old Dash Pilots account could be $100,000 at retirement.

I can assure you seat prices/QF Points that they sell have risen more then 3%.

[tictac123]

G'day, I have an interview coming up with Qlink

Good luck with your interview

[tossbag]

G'day, I have an interview coming up with Qlink, and I'm trying to find the latest EBA.

Just download the GA pilots award, you'll slot in around Grade 3 Instructor with the Design Feature training approval.

[GromDva]

Depressing isn't it. Hurts seeing whats going on pay wise over in the states.

I've landed an interview with Rex too, looks like they're slightly better from what I can see

[FO NappyBum]

Unfortunately with the cost of living, buying a house or supporting your family: $60–80K as a FO doesn’t go far. Eastern and Sunstate EBAs are always the lowest on the qantas IR team - they’ll drag it on for 12 + months and offer back pay, take it or leave.

Virgin, alliance, network are all hiring mate. While the industry is hot I’d be trying to get into a comfortable seat. Most current linkers are jumping … well trying to jump to a comfortable seat, that should tell you enough.

[FO NappyBum]

Depressing isn't it. Hurts seeing whats going on pay wise over in the states.

I've landed an interview with Rex too, looks like they're slightly better from what I can see

You’ll be at JQ within 6-12 months if you went down the Rex path (at this rate). If you went down the Qlink path you’ll be;
A) locked in for 18 months before you can even apply to anywhere within the group
B) 6-12 month timeframe from interview to active hold
C) 8-36 month timeframe for start date (AOC release)
(timeframes on average time: based of current pilots)

You do the math.

[Hollywood1]

Agree with FO Nappy Bum. The opportunity to jump directly to a jet operator in Aus has never been so good. There is less competition since many who would normally compete with you for these jobs are in the USA living the dream. You still have to make the grade, but at least, the odds are better if you do get through the sim and interview assessments. Give the turbo-prop operators a miss and apply directly to JQ, VA, Network, Alliance, NJS, NJE, EFA. A jet operator will have you earning a 6 figure starting salary as an FO.

[GromDva]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I've applied for Virgin too and they asked me to go do an MCC, so just waiting to hear back from them, thats the current pie in the sky option.

I've applied for the others, but not enough twin time yet unfortuntately. RPT line flying in a caravan apparently isn't as complex as buggering around in a clapped out partenavia.

Rex defintely looks to be the next best option. I've heard as much about Qlink as you guys have let on. Last week I applied on monday and they had an already had an interveiw date for me come thursday, I think that may be a sign on how many is jumping ship currently.

[43Inches]

Unfortunately with the cost of living, buying a house or supporting your family: $60–80K as a FO doesn’t go far. Eastern and Sunstate EBAs are always the lowest on the qantas IR team - they’ll drag it on for 12 + months and offer back pay, take it or leave.

Virgin, alliance, network are all hiring mate. While the industry is hot I’d be trying to get into a comfortable seat. Most current linkers are jumping … well trying to jump to a comfortable seat, that should tell you enough.

And it's hard to believe but Rex EBA will have you earning more as well and probably a faster time to command, especially if you compare to the QLink 200-300 fleet, it could be 10s of thousands more per year for similar workload. Easterns and Sunnies have a lot to do this EBA, they are way behind CPI on remuneration, probably somewhere in the region of -20%! (and that's before this years CPI is added)

[ScepticalOptomist]

RPT line flying in a caravan apparently isn't as complex as buggering around in a clapped out partenavia.


You’re correct - operating a single engine turbine is simpler. There’s a reason twin experience is worth more.
Only in Aus do we believe a turbine requires more experience. Most of the world know that a turbine is basically bullet proof - even in the hands of a ham fisted pilot.

[43Inches]

Yes and no, Turbines just poop themselves for different reasons, in service reliability is more a consideration for cost as they have longer TBOs and such. As far as experiencing engine failures, you will see them as regularly in turbine aircraft as piston, however the other engine if you have one is more than capable of producing enough thrust continuously to make it less of an event to the piston counterpart. With a piston its more likely to actually fail, rather than a sensor telling you to shut it down, which is the case in many turbine shutdowns and the sensor tends to be at fault rather than the engine. There are many occasions where they do fail mechanically as well, and from birdstrikes or FOD. Most airlines will have a few shut downs every year for various reasons, most will never reach the ATSB anymore as its considered a non event, unless it creates media attention.

[Lapon]

Piston management is irrelevant to airlines, and turbines are too easy to be concerned about.

Piston twin vs turbine single is not the issue, its than one is more often than not flown IFR and one is more often than not flown VFR.

The more attentive employers will take note of which applies to you, others will just have some entry level admin type with no idea place you in the wrong box unfortunately.

[43Inches]

Twin time is more just about managing two engines and having baseline knowledge of assymetrics and dealing with engine failures, turbine or piston is irrelevant. Having Turbine time ensures you know what simple things will kill a turbine. Turbines might be 'easy' to operate but they also have some areas where you can kill them rapidly with ham fisted no brain operation. On start you can cook them, in flight especially at altitude they are easy to cook, rapid movement of levers can lead to compressor stalls and spitting blades and so on. If your Piston or Turbine has FADEC or similar that is what makes them easy to use, not the type of engine.

[Lapon]

I spent a reasonable number the years in airlines that recruited straight out of GA and it was always the pilots without a proper grasp of the IFR environment that scrubbed out of training, or if lucky they battled on as 'strugglers'.

S/E IFR was starting to become more of a thing back then and we changed our recruiting accordingly without the lack of multi time proving any sort of hinderance.
Not every operator moves with the times unfortunately for the OP.

Oh and not one person in those years ever came undone over thier turbine engine handling skills (types pre-fadec). Every time it was IFR ability was the issue.

[43Inches]

I spent a reasonable number the years in airlines that recruited straight out of GA and it was always the pilots without a proper grasp of the IFR environment that scrubbed out of training, or if lucky they battled on as 'strugglers'.

I've worked for airlines that have operated pistons (Chieftains) and later turbines. The same is true for both, IFR was the prime concern and excess capacity. In both I've seen pilots that treated the engines well and those that were oblivious to the needs of either. You can move a Chieftains throttle through its range without doing really any damage, it will govern its maximum power limits and unless you really screw up the leaning process you are pretty safe with basic knowledge. The whole 1" per minute cooldown thing was unnecessary and smooth, regulated movement of the throttle was all that was required. Fly in ice, meh, they keep going. Ham fisted with the throttles, it will keep going. Flood it or stuff up the start, it just wont start (worst case you start a fire). Taking one into dirt/mud/gravel is not going to harm the engine to any great degree. The main issue is leaning properly and long term temperature management. Make sure the red lever is where it should be for particular flight phases and you cant go very wrong.

Move onto the turbines and the same is mostly true, except, generally in most you can easily overtemp them and do lasting damage if you stuff the start, push the levers too far forward, push them forward too fast, pull the props back too fast (turboprops), do something silly with up-scheduling sequences and so on. Pulling back levers suddenly can cause compressor stalls and that can very quickly lead to blade ejection. Ice ingestion can seriously damage inlets and compressors. Sucking a bird or other large fod into the compressor will damage stuff, so off roading through dirt/dust gravel whatever is going to seriously reduce your compressor life. So lots of things there that a pilot can stuff up and do some pretty costly damage, that might not come up on that flight, but the operator will pay for.

Which would I rather have an engine failure in a twin? The turbine of course, because if they are healthy they will continue along at high power, with more than enough performance generally to continue flight and return to land. But that's probably more to do with certification standards of the types I fly rather than piston vs turbine. But to be fair, some piston light twins can fly very well on one engine, depends on the excess power available and conditions on the day.

[SixDemonBag]

Great story

[MikeHatter732]

And it's hard to believe but Rex EBA will have you earning more as well and probably a faster time to command, especially if you compare to the QLink 200-300 fleet, it could be 10s of thousands more per year for similar workload. Easterns and Sunnies have a lot to do this EBA, they are way behind CPI on remuneration, probably somewhere in the region of -20%! (and that's before this years CPI is added)

I'm by no means defending the Eastern EBA, but please stop spreading misinformation. Anyone can pull up the respective EA's on the FWC website and see that the Rex FO base salary is $4k less than the lower 200/300 pay, and $10k less for those that start with 2000 hours (or after Year 4 commences, and add even more for the difference to the Q400 pay). Let's not spread malarkey to people who might be weighing up the two options.

.....and before you go on about additional allowances like you love to do, shock horror, Q-Link pilots also make allowances.

[43Inches]

I'm by no means defending the Eastern EBA, but please stop spreading misinformation. Anyone can pull up the respective EA's on the FWC website and see that the Rex FO base salary is $4k less than the lower 200/300 pay, and $10k less for those that start with 2000 hours (or after Year 4 commences, and add even more for the difference to the Q400 pay). Let's not spread malarkey to people who might be weighing up the two options.

.....and before you go on about additional allowances like you love to do, shock horror, Q-Link pilots also make allowances.

And this is where you have put your foot in it. The difference in Easterns and Rex EBAs are significant in so many ways that you obviously have not read them clearly enough. Easterns include the 7% leave loading and overnight DTA in the base salary, Rex adds it above base, that already puts over $5k on the Rex base. Then there's the small matter that Rex pilots now get 10 days off per 28 days or 8 day with a 1% buy back rate. That means those 2 days off have a value of 13% added per year. Then there's currently overtime paid on any duty that excedes CAO 48 requirements and so on... Like I said its worth $10s of thousands more. I suggest Dash pilots pull their fingers out as they are currently about 20% behind on CPI over the last 10 years.

[MikeHatter732]

And this is where you have put your foot in it. The difference in Easterns and Rex EBAs are significant in so many ways that you obviously have not read them clearly enough. Easterns include the 7% leave loading and overnight DTA in the base salary, Rex adds it above base, that already puts over $5k on the Rex base. Then there's the small matter that Rex pilots now get 10 days off per 28 days or 8 day with a 1% buy back rate. That means those 2 days off have a value of 13% added per year. Then there's currently overtime paid on any duty that excedes CAO 48 requirements and so on... Like I said its worth $10s of thousands more. I suggest Dash pilots pull their fingers out as they are currently about 20% behind on CPI over the last 10 years.
Oh dear where do I start...

Overnight's are not included in the base salary at all. Each overnight is roughly $120 tax free give/take depending on the sign off time day 2. Add to that DHA for each hour of duty worked.

Other things EAA have over REX: Better sector/extension allowances, higher working day off rate, payment for duty changes within 48 hours/sign on first hour of reserve, guaranteed J class duty travel, lounge access, higher communications allowance, meal provisions etc.

I think you really to need to have a read through the EBA instead of religiously defending REX against another EBA you clearly have no idea about. As I said, I am not saying it is a great EBA, quite the contrary, but it's certainly better than REX.

Oh and staff travel not being a PDF form sent to a random lady in Cowra helps too....

[aussieflyboy]

Why would you bother with either of those two. Stay and extra 6 months to a year in GA then head straight to NJS, Network Av, Cobham or Alliance.

[grrowler]

Why would you bother with either of those two. Stay and extra 6 months to a year in GA then head straight to NJS, Network Av, Cobham or Alliance.
absolutely - nothing wrong with a long term GA career.

[43Inches]

Oh dear where do I start...

Overnight's are not included in the base salary at all. Each overnight is roughly $120 tax free give/take depending on the sign off time day 2. Add to that DHA for each hour of duty worked.

Other things EAA have over REX: Better sector/extension allowances, higher working day off rate, payment for duty changes within 48 hours/sign on first hour of reserve, guaranteed J class duty travel, lounge access, higher communications allowance, meal provisions etc.

I think you really to need to have a read through the EBA instead of religiously defending REX against another EBA you clearly have no idea about. As I said, I am not saying it is a great EBA, quite the contrary, but it's certainly better than REX.

Oh and staff travel not being a PDF form sent to a random lady in Cowra helps too....

Not sure what EBA you are reading but Easterns specifically says allowances for ONs are included in base as well as leave loading. DTA is paid on duty time only where Rex is paid from sign on at home base to sign off at home base, which means you are paid DTA the entire time away from home base. All tax free. Which averages about $200 per overnight. So that alone will add $5k over QLink. And like I said the extra days off equate to an extra 13% again. Who cares about J class travel when you are struggling to pay your mortgage...

Never said I was defending Rexs EBA, its still ****e, but when a 34 seat pilot at a minor is being paid more than a 50 seat pilot at a major, you have to be embarrased

[MikeHatter732]

Not sure what EBA you are reading but Easterns specifically says allowances for ONs are included in base as well as leave loading. DTA is paid on duty time only where Rex is paid from sign on at home base to sign off at home base, which means you are paid DTA the entire time away from home base. All tax free. Which averages about $200 per overnight. So that alone will add $5k over QLink. And like I said the extra days off equate to an extra 13% again. Who cares about J class travel when you are struggling to pay your mortgage...

Never said I was defending Rexs EBA, its still ****e, but when a 34 seat pilot at a minor is being paid more than a 50 seat pilot at a major, you have to be embarrassed
Not only can I read, but I have worked under both Rex and Eastern EBA's. Here is the reference from the Eastern EBA since you are so inclined to think otherwise.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/624x156/msedge_07zbhlzcht_2c16a0a99d05a35f505477f93932b0f2b674db81.p ng

The allowance, with DHA for a standard duty equals the exact same as the DTA rule. They are two different methods of paying a very similar amount to the pilot. The only time the DTA rule works out better is if you have a 3-day trip with minimal flying, which at regional airlines, very rarely happens. However, have a short 1/1 overnight, and you end up worse off with the DTA rule, so it all equals out at the end of the year. One is not better than the other, especially in a regional airline roster. Long haul/trunk domestic is a different story.

You still have no evidence from comparing EBA's that Rex pay is better than Eastern, so you really should stop harping on with that narrative, cause its factually incorrect. Just look at the base pay scales, it's extremely clear who has the higher payscale, even on an expired EBA :ugh:

[Going Nowhere]

Both Eastern and Sunstate are paid allowances for overnights on top of base salary. DHA is paid (and taxed) on duty hours only. The differences between Rex and Qlink EBA’s are being worked on in the current EBA discussions.

https://tribunalsearch.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/3/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvZW50ZXJwcmlzZWFncmVlbWVudHMvMjAyMS8xMC9hZTUxMzYxMC5wZGY1 ?sid=&q=Eastern%24%24airlines

Can’t see anything in that document that says the pay rates are all inclusive.

[aussieflyboy]

Do you get paid Super on DTA or DHA?

Or is this something an IR hero has made up to make it look like you get paid more but will actually save the company money and in 30 years put you out of pocket $100,000+?

[Going Nowhere]

Do you get paid Super on DTA or DHA?

Yes

I just checked a payslip that had no other allowances for the fortnight other than DHA.

[Prop_Like_Pay]

Unless things have changed, EBA negotiations will generally be dragged out for minimum 12 months after expiry, and then a “take it or lose it” very ordinary offer will be made. If voted down, back pay will disappear and negotiations to another ordinary agreement will commence. Partial back pay may come out again as a “sweetener” at some point.

Having said that it’s not a terrible place to work for a bit.
Dragging out is all well and good until PIA is approved. The pilot body will decide if they want to gear up and vote YES to action. The company can play the game but so can the pilot group.