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AeroQuixotic
24th Jun 2023, 18:30
I am writing this post because I am in a dilemma right now. I am studying Mechatronics Engineering in a university in Istanbul, Turkey and am about to graduate in two weeks. I can try to seek an engineering job in the very cutthroat dog-eat-dog industry of Turkey, or could enter the Turkish Airlines Cadet academy.

Some background : I am sure most of you are already aware of the state of Turkish economy right now. For the past 5 years, the average inflation rate has been around 100%, going up to 180% in some years. 1 kg of ground beef was 10 liras in 2018 and is about 400 liras right now. You can pretty much guess how much did the salaries increase in the same period :) Our dictator is trying to keep unemployment low by artificially lowering the interest rates and offering state backed loans but it's a Ponzi scheme that will collapse sooner or later.

Turkey is not a very R&D oriented, high added value economy, so good engineering jobs are far and few in between, and competition for them is very high, and nepotism is rampant. The remaining engineering jobs are more akin to glorified technician jobs that overwork you and pay you a tad above the minimum wage. Work environments are usually toxic, job security is nonexistent, and since employers know that if you get fired you will probably not find another job soon enough to keep your tummy full, they treat you like they are the God's gift. Of course I could try to go for a Master's degree in the USA/Canada/Australia/Europe and try to legally cement myself there as an engineer, but immigration is a very financially and mentally draining affair and is actually pretty difficult and high risk as well.

Aviation(at least line flying) isn't so bleak here though. Turkish Airlines managed to make itself a significant player in long haul hub-and-spoke game especially between Europe and Asia and Europe and Latin America. The fleet has grown about 100% in the past decade and airline is chronically understaffed, if you do get hired, you get upgraded to left seat and wide bodies in no time(compared to US legacy carriers for example). 777 captains in their 30s are common. And piloting is one of the very few professions here that don't underpay you to hell, a 737/A320 FO will make about 4 times as much as an entry level engineer, and for wide body captains, it goes up to pretty high levels for Tyrkey standards, especially if they also have other duties like line and base training/check airman/sim instructor. Since Turkish Airlines has lots of foreign investment and USD/EUR income, it is like a safe haven from the storm that is the Turkish economy. Do note that seniority system doesn't exist here the same way it does in the USA, so you may still have to fly at 3AM to Iraq on New Year's Eve even when you have been in the airline for 30 years.

The cadet academy takes you with zero experience and puts you in the right seat of an A320/737 in about 30 months. The job is a guarantee, which is a great peace of mind. A lot of people don't make it through the entrance exams, language proficiency checks(English proficiency levels in Turkey are very low) or the medical examination(the conditions are much tighter than what the aviation authority requires, due to guaranteed job thing). You get modular training, and spend little time in the piston props and go pretty quickly to airliners. You start with around 140k EUR debt to the academy, which you can repay in 15 years. Yes I am aware it's a lot more than a lot of regular flight schools, I am sure a lot of it is "job guarantee surcharge".

I have been a flight sim enthusiast since I was a little boy, and I always sort of wanted to do it in real life as well, but until recently I used to consider a cushy office engineering job where I toyed around with SolidWorks, Excel and MATLAB for a few hours, wrote some reports and attended some meetings and went home with a livable wage, but that reality doesn't exist in my country anymore since a long time ago.

I am very well aware of all the downsides that come with flying professionally, but the compensation is too hard to ignore, especially when the alternative is just about poverty. What would you do if you were in my shoes, pprune members? Thanks in advance!

redsnail
25th Jun 2023, 10:21
If I were you, I'd apply and see what happens. If they say yes, then you might have something to think about. If they say no, then you can think about a good masters degree elsewhere.

paco
25th Jun 2023, 15:35
Think about it as creating an opportunity.

OrangeAgent
27th Jun 2023, 00:54
Well I am currently doing a degree since covid killed most reasonable pilot job opportunity. I would not recommend EU and certainly not UK since there is a gut of fATPL pilot looking for the right hand seat. If you want to pay for flight school, best go to the US since its cheaper and more job opportunity. Also your degree should help you get a work visa in the US. By the way I have the CPL for a good few years and my view of the pilot market is not great for this year maybe next year would be better. redsnail is spot on their advice. Good luck

janrein
27th Jun 2023, 04:16
Having been involved in flight training in Turkey and elsewhere and with an engineering background myself I can relate to your post aiming to balance your options when approaching big decisions. Interesting to read your view to the overall situation in Turkey now that almost 10 years have past since my short stint there. Very insightfull the opportunities and conditions in Turkish Airlines in particular.

I am sure many aviation wannabees in the US, EASA-Europe and the UK would be envious of the unique opportunities you have in Turkey.

I imagine the main issue may be tying yourself to your choice for those next 15 years. You have to be sure you will take it on in such a way as not to get bored, frustrated, after the first few years and then feel stuck for so many more. However reading your so eloquently written and well balanced post I have the feeling that you do have that extra drive and interest that will keep you going.

On the other end of your options, trying to get into the US can be an ordeal whether for flight training or any other studies or profession.

In Europe you may expect to be treated better on entry applications and not face similar xenophobism. With your engineering studies and interest, if you did not already know ASML - headquartered in The Netherlands - then you must look into them. They are screaming for enthousiastic young technical professionals, taking them in from all over Europe and elsewhere and provide excellent conditions and carreer opportunities.

That would give you two very different futures to weigh against each other.

Good luck with your graduation first, then with generating your further options and making the choice that is best for you.

merkelbook
27th Jun 2023, 11:20
If i were you i would run away , and would never look back. THY is now imposing extreme flight limitations and will make you fly very long hours without adequate rest. Forget your special days , forget your private life. I entered as a cadet to the academy long time ago, now i am regretting on this decision. Pay might be better than the engineering jobs, but don't forget that you will be heavily indebted for the next 15 years and one quarter of your income will always be subject to deduction every month for the next 15 years. As an FO don't expect to get paid more than 3000€ monthly average( figure could change but not marginally),in some months experienced cabin chiefs/pursers will be paid more than you, this is not a fiction but a fact. In my opinion you are not paid what you are deserving. Risk/reward ratio is extremely high, even compared to that lower paying engineering jobs. Narrow body FO flies 90-100 hours , 40-60 sectors. Crew planning finds very creative ways to work around the regulations for their advantage to make you fly harder. Working conditions wise many cockpit personnel is very unhappy and they are burned out, and the top management only trying to do the situation worse. By the time you finish your academy , things wont be easier. As a Turkish individual, the options of European and American carrier is not available to you, and THY is doing gentleman's agreement with Gulf carriers not to recruit a THY pilot to work for them. So once you start in THY academy it becomes a single lateral agreement with THY that you cannot leave the job for another option but they can dismiss you at their will anytime and depending on the situation in aviation.

Just add up to your personal development and try to find a job elsewhere in the world as a mechatronics engineer.

SaulGoodman
27th Jun 2023, 13:28
Apply and see what's going to happen. These applications can take a very long time. In the meantime, you continue searching for an engineering job in Turkey or abroad. Once you are being allowed into the academy only then it's time to make up your mind.

AeroQuixotic
30th Jun 2023, 11:51
Thank you all for your insights. It seems like flying in the EU(besides a few charter airlines perhaps) is not a possibility without an EU citizenship. While the USA is not as restrictive on paper, they still require a permanent residency(Green Card) instead of flat out citizenship, and for practical purposes it's still as restrictive, because only way to get a Green Card, besides the lottery, is marriage, since airlines don't sponsor it for you. And due to the supposed gentlemen's agreement, I won't be going to the Gulf, so it's either TK or Far East. It's a tough decision for sure, and TK isn't a beacon of worker's rights, but compensation is still great. For reference, 3000 EUR is what an average mechanical engineer(with 5+ years of experience) is earning in Germany, and you're earning that in Turkey. Even an underpaid an overworked pilot is paid more(globally) and worked less(in Turkey and Asia) than the average ground laborer.

In Europe you may expect to be treated better on entry applications and not face similar xenophobism. With your engineering studies and interest, if you did not already know ASML - headquartered in The Netherlands - then you must look into them. They are screaming for enthousiastic young technical professionals, taking them in from all over Europe and elsewhere and provide excellent conditions and carreer opportunities.

Are you sure of that? I don't have much experience with the Dutch, but based on personal anecdotes I can easily say Germans have a lower opinion of foreigners than Americans do, especially what they call Südlanders, that is, usually Turks and people from Asia. I speak B1 German but zero Dutch. And what ASML is doing(photolithography machinery) is an extremely niche area of engineering that requires very specific skills and knowledge that I don't possess. Also, this is my personal humble opinion, but future of semiconductor manufacturing seems bleak for the West and even Taiwan, it's only a matter of time before the Chinese learn all of it and sell theirs for half the price. Case point:Huawei. So I'd rather want to work in an industry that has a lesser chance of dying out or being outcompeted in Europe in near future, such as renewable energy, watchmaking or luxury yacht building. Of course Germany has a lot more opportunities for that than the Netherlands, which evolved more into a "service economy", but the recent economic developments in Germany(the outflow of capital and dismantling of facilities for the past two years) are nothing short of worrying, adding to the fact that with B1 German I may as well be considered mentally deficient there, at least in the Maschinenbau. Of course you can find English jobs in the software industry, but I am not much of a software developer, besides what is required for mechatronics, and I don't particularly enjoy it.

HOVIS
30th Jun 2023, 20:03
There is a world wide shortage of Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineers. Have you considered that as an option. Wages are rising quite rapidly at the moment.

janrein
2nd Jul 2023, 13:53
Are you sure of that? I don't have much experience with the Dutch, but based on personal anecdotes I can easily say Germans have a lower opinion of foreigners than Americans do, especially what they call Südlanders, that is, usually Turks and people from Asia. I speak B1 German but zero Dutch. And what ASML is doing(photolithography machinery) is an extremely niche area of engineering that requires very specific skills and knowledge that I don't possess. Also, this is my personal humble opinion, but future of semiconductor manufacturing seems bleak for the West and even Taiwan, it's only a matter of time before the Chinese learn all of it and sell theirs for half the price. Case point:Huawei. So I'd rather want to work in an industry that has a lesser chance of dying out or being outcompeted in Europe in near future, such as renewable energy, watchmaking or luxury yacht building. Of course Germany has a lot more opportunities for that than the Netherlands, which evolved more into a "service economy", but the recent economic developments in Germany(the outflow of capital and dismantling of facilities for the past two years) are nothing short of worrying, adding to the fact that with B1 German I may as well be considered mentally deficient there, at least in the Maschinenbau. Of course you can find English jobs in the software industry, but I am not much of a software developer, besides what is required for mechatronics, and I don't particularly enjoy it.

Obviously you have researched and contemplated your options in aviation much further than the opportunities the engineering and technology world have to offer. And in line with your prime ambition of course. I'd recommend you put your energy and efforts in what drives you most and wish you all the best.