$100K type rating bond???

[BK Breadroll]

Hi fellow aviators, I had an interview with FlyPelican for a first officer position on the Jetstream 32 aircraft in NSW.

I was told on my phone screening that the training bond is approximately $95,000 over two years pro rata. I assume per the award I'd be liable for 50% of that so around 47k? Correct me if I'm wrong.

This appears to be an incredibly excessive amount of money for a type rating that is only useful at one operation in oz but would it be worth it for the hours in the logbook (told its 900hrs/yr) and then move on once the two years is up?

Any other info on the company and working environment roster etc would be greatly appreciated.

[RealSatoshi]

I was told on my phone screening that the training bond is approximately $95,000 over two years pro rata.
Just hang up the phone...before they charge you for the call as well.
Seriously, that does not sound like a training bond but rather an insurance policy against not finding pilots to crew their aircraft :ugh:

[NaFenn]

Nope, sounds like they want to bond you for the whole lot, and reduce it pro-rata over the 2 years. The Award requirement limits them to bonding you for half the cost... and if it costs $200k to train someone on a gulfstream they are doing something wrong or someone is getting one hell of a kickback.

That is a really bad deal, and I would not even consider it a genuine offer given the current demand for pilots in the industry.

[geeup]

It’s sounds excessive but if you stay the 2 years it’s doesn’t matter.

[Icarus2001]

Ask for a breakdown of the costs.

[bazza stub]

Hang up like someone else said. There are other operators who will take you on with bugger all experience and won’t charge you $100k to do it.

[smiling monkey]

Is there a J32 simulator in Australia? If not, it probably includes the cost of international travel and hotel stay for the duration of the type rating course, including those of the check and training captain who may have to come along to tick the boxes.

[Lapon]

$100k sounds mighty excessive, the norm (for jets anyway) was always around 30k.

Depending where you are coming from experience wise it might not be a problem in practice. I mean, if you have only 500hrs on joining then you're unlikley to be going anwhere vastly greener inside two years anyway.

You could always turn it down and spend a few more months waiting for something else when you could have otherwise been a decent way through serving the bond.

[KAPAC]

Think the system is broken .

It’s a big country , the economy depends on aviation , Billions of dollars invested in regional Australia , tourists coming back , population growing and planes sitting on the ground, while managment try to find someone willing to fly their plane that will give them a bonus .

Watch the states to see where it will go for us .

[Gnadenburg]

I found Aussie pilots industrial eunuchs of recent. Sure it can go the way of the States?

[havick]

$100k sounds mighty excessive, the norm (for jets anyway) was always around 30k.

Depending where you are coming from experience wise it might not be a problem in practice. I mean, if you have only 500hrs on joining then you're unlikley to be going anwhere vastly greener inside two years anyway.

You could always turn it down and spend a few more months waiting for something else when you could have otherwise been a decent way through serving the bond.

flightsafety is charging $97k usd for an initial PIC GVII rating with the monopoly they have on the type right now.

Simply a data point for what is being charged these days.

[Duck Pilot]

Regardless of the value of the bond, just say for longer than 2 years and the bond will disappear, it would be different if you had to pay the money up front.

Easy was to get the MCC and ATPL flight test done to if you need it, which can be a headache from some if they need to pay for it out of their own pocket.

As far as the company goes, it was great about 20 years ago although they didn’t have the J32s then. Good lifestyle and easy flying although they were only doing PEL/WLM - SYD back then. Pay wasn’t to bad either for the work we did and Newcastle is a great place to live.

[neville_nobody]

flightsafety is charging $97k usd for an initial PIC GVII rating with the monopoly they have on the type right now.

Simply a data point for what is being charged these days.

For a job that probably pays 300k+. You won’t be getting that flying a J32.

At the end of the day if you are inexperienced it’s probably not terrible if you spend your 2 years. The trap of course is missing a hiring boom at a Regional or QF because of your bond.

[172heavy]

I got this info from a mate that was employed by them.

"They do all of their type ratings/ipc/atpl flight tests etc in an actual aircraft, no legal requirement for a sim as it's only a 19 seater. Expect to work max flight and duty if employed with a salary based on 38 hour weeks but generally you're working the limits of the regs for award pay. FO around 55K and Capt approx 79K"

That is likely where the excessive cost is coming from.

[Mach E Avelli]

Is there a J32 simulator in Australia? If not, it probably includes the cost of international travel and hotel stay for the duration of the type rating course, including those of the check and training captain who may have to come along to tick the boxes.
Fair enough to bond for DIRECT costs of simulator and aircraft base training, but if they are also hitting you up for travel, accommodation and training staff expenses, they are gouging you. These latter items are standard costs of being in the aviation business, where it is normal to have induction and on-going training overheads. If they can’t absorb these expenses , what else can’t they afford?
Whatever you do, don’t commit to anything that you can’t honour if you think there is even the slightest chance of a change in your circumstances

[Mach E Avelli]

I got this info from a mate that was employed by them.

"They do all of their type ratings/ipc/atpl flight tests etc in an actual aircraft, no legal requirement for a sim as it's only a 19 seater. Expect to work max flight and duty if employed with a salary based on 38 hour weeks but generally you're working the limits of the regs for award pay. FO around 55K and Capt approx 79K"

That is likely where the excessive cost is coming from.
Say, 10 days in a classroom and 10 hours dual in a J 32 for $95,000? Wow, what a deal!

[172heavy]

Say, 10 days in a classroom and 10 hours dual in a J 32 for $95,000? Wow, what a deal!
​​​As RealSatoshi said above, it seems more like an insurance policy for the company to guard against high turnover rates of pilots. At a guess I'd say they don't have any long term pilots given how quickly people are moving through the industry at the moment and this is their way of securing staff.

[Checkboard]

and 10 hours dual in a J 32 for
Ten hours?? Take off, climb, stall, emergency descent, approach, go around, visual circuit and land. Job done. Sign the book, start tomorrow.

[geeup]

Mach E do you still charge $75k upfront BAE 146 endorses for the mob out of Cairns?

[Switchbait]

Just say “no thanks”, and move on.

[Wizofoz]

flightsafety is charging $97k usd for an initial PIC GVII rating with the monopoly they have on the type right now.

Simply a data point for what is being charged these days.
IT's a Jetstream, not a Gulfstream.

[Mach E Avelli]

Mach E do you still charge $75k upfront BAE 146 endorses for the mob out of Cairns?
Not my decision to charge that, as I was a mere contractor delivering the Type Rating. Of course I took a cut, but hey, boats cost money to maintain.
In defence of the mob who charged up front for the TR, their starting salaries were about double what’s on offer for the J32. AFAIK, no one got stiffed on the agreed pay back terms, but the company got burned with a few epic failures who were given additional free training in an attempt to get them checked out.
What the deal is now, I have no idea.

[BK Breadroll]

Thank you all for your responses. It seems like a bit of a circus that's best avoided and a 55K fo salary is a bit of a slap in the face tbh.

[lucille]

Do I read right?….F/O salary is $55K?

Just by way of comparison….. $1000/week is 25/hour for a 40 hour week. Basically what you’d get paid flipping burgers or stacking shelves at Bunnings.

Why would anyone want to be a pilot?

[Capt Fathom]

Why would anyone want to be a pilot?
Well you have to start somewhere!
All apprentices start the same way. At the bottom and train your way to the top!

[bazza stub]

Well you have to start somewhere!
All apprentices start the same way. At the bottom and train your way to the top!

Are we calling multi crew turbine an apprenticeship now?

[Checkboard]

It is if it's your first job and you start right seat.

In the UK cadets step into A320 right seat cockpits to start their apprenticeships - on less pay than the J31 job, too.

[By George]

Aviation is the only industry that on the surface eats its own young. However, like most things there are two sides to a coin. I recently retired (again) from an operator that employed a dozen ex Virgin pilots. They all seemed nice blokes and I was involved in their training and induction etc. To a man they all seemed grateful for the lifeline, said they would stay and were happy. Fast forward 12 months, all went back to Virgin. Cost the company at least half a million dollars. So guess what? The company now bonds people. Pilots are once again their own worst enemies. It is a vicious circle that could be broken if pilots showed a bit of loyalty. At least give a couple of years to cover costs.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Sure, $95k is a lot of money but I bet you would sit in the interview and promise them you will stay for five years.
In my experience as an employer I have noticed a few patterns:

1/. Those who say they will stay forever usually have applications in with other operators as soon as they are checked to line.
2/. Those who commit to a time frame (18 months) and stick to it usually progress faster in their careers overall.

FlyPelican is a great first airline job. They are good operators working very very hard to make a go of it. $95k over two years? As others have said, doesn't matter if you are staying for two years.

[Mach E Avelli]

Sure, $95k is a lot of money but I bet you would sit in the interview and promise them you will stay for five years.
In my experience as an employer I have noticed a few patterns:

1/. Those who say they will stay forever usually have applications in with other operators as soon as they are checked to line.
2/. Those who commit to a time frame (18 months) and stick to it usually progress faster in their careers overall.

FlyPelican is a great first airline job. They are good operators working very very hard to make a go of it. $95k over two years? As others have said, doesn't matter if you are staying for two years.
Except that $95k is an obscene amount of bondage for a type rating which is of no use elsewhere. Potential financial stress awaits anyone naive enough to accept this deal (if it is as reported here). A $55k taxed salary would barely cover rent and electricity on the NSW Central Coast. A decent employment arrangement should have both parties reap some benefits from the liaison. This one doesn't seem to offer the employee much - other than a few hours on an extinct aircraft type.
As someone said, it appears to be their idea of a way to handcuff pilots during a perceived shortage.
Is bonding for amounts exceeding actual training costs legal?
How is such a bond secured?

[Mach E Avelli]

Ten hours?? Take off, climb, stall, emergency descent, approach, go around, visual circuit and land. Job done. Sign the book, start tomorrow.
You are probably right - which makes the bond amount even more ludicrous.
To reduce pilot turnover, a smart operator would have a bond representing true training costs, and provide clarity on those costs. Terms to equal or better the Award (which is not all that generous anyway), and offer a decent end-of-contract bonus with a juicy sign-on bonus for another two years.
There was a time when conditions in the commuter airline world in the USA were pretty ordinary - low pay, big hours, minimal annual leave etc. Life on a Dash 8 or similar here was much better. Now the Yanks have seen the light, while we seem to have gone backwards.

[172heavy]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1055/snapchat_1675508711_5bab18ea8002287a8efee16a956323f225a9f921 .jpg
Managed to get this from a pilot who has left the company so it may be out of date. 🚩🚩🚩

[Mach E Avelli]

So they charge the Training Captain salary at nearly $30k, presumably while conducting line training... or is that because he is in the classroom and conducting other non revenue work on behalf of the trainee for 10 weeks? And during line training, for 10 of those 14 weeks that the trainee's salary is regarded as an expense, is the trainee not fulfilling the role of a First Officer on revenue flights?
The claim of $1500 for loss of a revenue seat to accommodate the safety pilot I assume means that they run at 100% load factor.
It must be said that they run a tight ship...tight being the operative word.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Mach

Daylight Robbery? How so? They are not asking for the money up front.

It's a cost in the training. If the candidate completes the Type Rating and quits the next day, the above statement describes how far Pelican are out of pocket.
If you quit the day after the TR, they then have to spend it all again.

...but the Candidate does not, you see. The risk is all on the Operator.

They are looking for someone who will commit to 18+ months and I don't think that's unreasonable. Any operator needs to maintain a level of experience in the organisation and a pipeline of suitable Command candidates.

You can say anything you want in the interview about how long you intend to stay (and many will just tell 'em what they want to hear).
To me there is nothing wrong with this arrangement (although the amounts for wages do seem to gild the lily somewhat, I calculate about $20k for 14 weeks). They invest in the Candidate, the candidate gets to fly some pretty decent equipment (better than a Chieftain or a Metro, anyway) and after 18-24 months they are home free.

[MagnumPI]

I understand that professional pilot salaries at the entry level are modest but that's ridiculous, considering they're unlikely to hire someone with a fresh CPL and the amount a candidate would have invested already in their training. The minimums for a non-type rated FO from the ad I could find are:

1000 hours of total flying experience;
300 hours Multi Engine IFR PIC;
Hold an IPC (minimum 3 renewals);
Multi-crew Cooperation Course (MCC);

I hire people straight out of high school in Customer Service who are paid more than that! The average salary in Australia now is around $92k now (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/earnings-and-working-conditions/average-weekly-earnings-australia/latest-release). Surely pilots can do better than this?

[deja vu]

Of course the risk is on the operator, as it should be. It's known as the "cost of doing business" and applies everywhere in all other industries.

Does anyone really think that someone who has spent a fortune and years to obtain a CPL really wants to work for some pissant outfit like Aeropelican for very long. Its a use-use situation

It would be interesting to see if these people claim $97,000 trainiing costs with the ATO for each new pilot. I would love to draw attention to that scam as exposed by 172 Heavy.

I am interested to know if anyone has ever paid a bond or any part of it. From what I understand it's very rarely enforceable through the courts.

[Mach E Avelli]

Leafy, I am not disputing the right of an operator to bond pilots for reasonable training costs. But I fail to see the ethics of charging salaries when pilots being trained or conducting training are on revenue-producing operations - as are training captains and trainees during the line training phase. The non-revenue costly bit ends at simulator or aircraft base check.
The only additional costs could be the captain's training allowance - though that is really a fixed overhead regardless, because CASA require a certain ratio of training captains to line pilots - and is usually offset by the trainee being on probation pay rate until checked to line.
I absolutely agree that pilots should serve their bond out, or pay a penalty for an early exit, but terms need to be fair.

[KRviator]

Mach

Daylight Robbery? How so? They are not asking for the money up front.

It's a cost in the training. If the candidate completes the Type Rating and quits the next day, the above statement describes how far Pelican are out of pocket.
If you quit the day after the TR, they then have to spend it all again.

...but the Candidate does not, you see. The risk is all on the Operator.

They are looking for someone who will commit to 18+ months and I don't think that's unreasonable. Any operator needs to maintain a level of experience in the organisation and a pipeline of suitable Command candidates.

You can say anything you want in the interview about how long you intend to stay (and many will just tell 'em what they want to hear).
To me there is nothing wrong with this arrangement (although the amounts for wages do seem to gild the lily somewhat, I calculate about $20k for 14 weeks). They invest in the Candidate, the candidate gets to fly some pretty decent equipment (better than a Chieftain or a Metro, anyway) and after 18-24 months they are home free.I'm actually with HL on this, for the most part.

If they'd asked you to stump up the $$ and have it repaid, or similar tot he Rex scheme, yeah, nah, hard pass. But if you aren't prepared to sign up with the company for a minimum two years given the $$ involved in recruitment, training etc, it's not an unreasonable ask that you don'tbaulk at repaying some of the training cost. I get the airlines are always in a state of flux and every new CPL and their dog want's to fly a shiny jet and would sell their grandmother to do so, but I also happen to be principled enough to not jump from job to job every 18 months if a company's given you a FT gig. Casual, perhaps, but FT in a twin turboprop gig? Nope. Maybe I'm a bit old school and out of touch though...

That being said, I do think it's a bit rich to ask you to repay your own salary if you pull the pin...

[Checkboard]

Take out the $60k salary amount, and you are back at £30k for a J31 rating - which is about par for the course these days.

[MalcolmReynolds]

By George well said! How are you doing by the way?

[happyjack]

I was a GV Captain. But I never got anywhere close to earning 300k a year! A complete resignation to no life outside of work and horrible abuse by employer bought me about 100k a year! Then upon renewal with no job 100k required for a 5 day sim course to be paid by me in the hope of finding a job? I don't think so!
Gulfstream world is utterly vile with egomaniacs stabbing everyone in sight so be careful what you wish for?
100k for ANY bond is appalling of course. But what is the situation if they fire you before the bond expiry?
I have refused jobs over bonds. Most recently with a "non decreasing bond." That is simply unfair and needs to be binned by everyone. But people accept it.
Unfortunately there are always Ar@e lickers everywhere in aviation that will agree to anything to get one over the next guy. Thereby destroying everyone's future.

[lucille]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1055/snapchat_1675508711_5bab18ea8002287a8efee16a956323f225a9f921 .jpg
Managed to get this from a pilot who has left the company so it may be out of date. 🚩🚩🚩

Wages of Trainee… $28K for 14 weeks… so $2K/week = $100k per annum. Which is reasonable.

Thats a far cry from the $55K which had been quoted earlier which wasn’t.

[KRviator]

Wages of Trainee… $28K for 14 weeks… so $2K/week = $100k per annum. Which is reasonable.

Thats a far cry from the $55K which had been quoted earlier which wasn’t.Is a new-hire Effo for Pelican really on $100K during training? I don't think so. Or people wouldn't be considering leaving before their two years are up. I'd be more inclined to believe the $55K or thereabouts is their normal salary

Granted, Keg's post (https://www.pprune.org/10306037-post363.html) is a few years old and unconfirmed, but the rates listed in 2018 were ~$71K for 0A and ~$51 for the FO, which tends to align with Rex as well, from what I understand. The Pelican 2011 EBA has $47,859 listed as the starting salary, though I can't find a newer one.

[swingswong]

100k bond for a 55k salary is a terrible deal. There are better jobs going at the moment where you can get paid twice as much and bonded 20% this amount. Why would anyone sign up?

The business geniuses running these companies are forever scratching their heads wondering why people leave. Meanwhile the only idea they ever have is “Let’s try screwing them harder see if that works”.

55k salary? Sorry kids no toys this Christmas. Also I turned that jet job down even though it would triple my income. But look how loyal I am!

In my experience employers that bang on about ‘return of service’ are often the ones you want to avoid for a lot of reasons anyway.

[evilducky]

Has anyone else noticed that since the award was changed to allow bonding only for 50% of the cost of a type rating, that training costs have magically inflated by 100%?

Where previously operators would bond (without backing of the award if they ever tried to enforce) for 100% the genuine costs of a type rating (aircraft, sim, ground school etc.), they now add every single conceivable cost in at full commercial markup to get the 50% cost to the same figure as they used to.

Seems like the award needs to more clearly spell out what costs are bondable and which costs are just costs of running an aviation business borne by the employer.

[compressor stall]

How enforceable are they these days?

(no I'm not bonded :} )

[Mach E Avelli]

How enforceable are they these days?

(no I'm not bonded :} )
That depends on how aggressive the employer is in chasing it. Then, who has the better lawyers.
The problem with sniveling on a bond is that in Oz this industry is too small for a pilot to risk reputational damage.
OTOH some operators don’t give a rat’s arse about a reputation for being hard-nose. It tends to keep their pilots in line.

[prickly]

That depends on how aggressive the employer is in chasing it. Then, who has the better lawyers.
The problem with sniveling on a bond is that in Oz this industry is too small for a pilot to risk reputational damage.
OTOH some operators don’t give a rat’s arse about a reputation for being hard-nose. It tends to keep their pilots in line.

I think this employer trying to defend or justify the amount of $97k as the cost of training a new FO would be very entertaining in court.
A very clear case of exploitation and fraud.

Operators like these are a disgrace and have been for the last 50 years that I know of, they have no business in the industry.

[Giraffesarecool]

Wages of Trainee… $28K for 14 weeks… so $2K/week = $100k per annum. Which is reasonable.

Thats a far cry from the $55K which had been quoted earlier which wasn’t.
How is it reasonable for someone to pay their own wage when the company is operating that flight as a revenue flight? For a trainee to cover the cost of their training captains?

It's crazy to see people defending this garbage. Meanwhile US regionals are giving sign-on bonuses paid out over time, longevity matches and and structured flow programs to keep their employees.

[havick]

I was a GV Captain. But I never got anywhere close to earning 300k a year! A complete resignation to no life outside of work and horrible abuse by employer bought me about 100k a year! Then upon renewal with no job 100k required for a 5 day sim course to be paid by me in the hope of finding a job? I don't think so!
Gulfstream world is utterly vile with egomaniacs stabbing everyone in sight so be careful what you wish for?
100k for ANY bond is appalling of course. But what is the situation if they fire you before the bond expiry?
I have refused jobs over bonds. Most recently with a "non decreasing bond." That is simply unfair and needs to be binned by everyone. But people accept it.
Unfortunately there are always Ar@e lickers everywhere in aviation that will agree to anything to get one over the next guy. Thereby destroying everyone's future.

Ooof. Sounds like a gem of a flight department you worked for.

[172heavy]

How is it reasonable for someone to pay their own wage when the company is operating that flight as a revenue flight? For a trainee to cover the cost of their training captains?

It's crazy to see people defending this garbage. Meanwhile US regionals are giving sign-on bonuses paid out over time, longevity matches and and structured flow programs to keep their employees.
If they are bonding against the wages of an FO under line training and the training captain sitting next to them on a revenue raising flight that would have been operated with line FOs and Capts regardless, I'd say it's illegal and unethical. And where does this stop, are crews paying for their accommodation on overnight trips or sleeping in the aircraft, are they washing planes on days off, are they being forced to fudge flight and duty times?

And let's be real, the only people that would be defending this type of arrangement would be individuals who have a vested interest in the company. Everyone else can see how ridiculous this is in 2023.

[Capt Fathom]

It doesn't matter what the bond is or how it's calculated! If you repay some loyalty to your employer, when the time comes, you won't owe anything.

[lucille]

How is it reasonable for someone to pay their own wage when the company is operating that flight as a revenue flight? For a trainee to cover the cost of their training captains?

It's crazy to see people defending this garbage. Meanwhile US regionals are giving sign-on bonuses paid out over time, longevity matches and and structured flow programs to keep their employees.

Yikes! You misunderstood me.

I was saying the 100K salary was a reasonable, while the 55K was not. I said nothing about the reasonableness or otherwise of the bonding agreement.

The $100K number, I had gleaned from the bonding agreement which someone had attached. (14 weeks being $28K in salary). Mind you if someone needed 14 weeks to go from ab initio to F/O checked to line, Either the scheduling of training was mismanaged by the employer or the candidate was a moron.

My earlier post indicated how shocked I was at the $55K number, which if compared to a menial 40 hour a week job was equivalent to $26 an hour. That is not a living wage.

[tossbag]

Aviation is the only industry that on the surface eats its own young. However, like most things there are two sides to a coin. I recently retired (again) from an operator that employed a dozen ex Virgin pilots. They all seemed nice blokes and I was involved in their training and induction etc. To a man they all seemed grateful for the lifeline, said they would stay and were happy. Fast forward 12 months, all went back to Virgin. Cost the company at least half a million dollars. So guess what? The company now bonds people. Pilots are once again their own worst enemies. It is a vicious circle that could be broken if pilots showed a bit of loyalty. At least give a couple of years to cover costs.

All the arseholes that went to Air North on the Jetstream? The bigger arseholes are those that employed them in the first place. I can't think of anyone so stupid as to believe a redundant jet pilot telling them 'yes, I'm done with big airline flying, I'm happy here.' Whomever is responsible for employing them got everything they deserved.

Anyone who couldn't see that covid would end and things would return to 'normal' is a cretin, kind of like the type of cretin who would invest in uber eats thinking that that **** would last forever.

They could have employed and typed pilots that would have stayed with them for a few years, but they were obviously dazzled by the big boys coming back to GA to grace them with their presence.

[172heavy]

It appears that the operator mentioned here looking after their pilots with a 100K bond and a bunnings wage have teamed up with Inbound Aviation to offer the same identical "cadetship" Sharp Airlines offers.

Get your 200k+ ready to buy a right seat in a jet stream.

https://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/flypelican-introduces-pilot-cadetship

[43Inches]

The only time a $100k+ bond would be reasonable is if they trained you from scratch, and paid for it all. Anything else is attaching a leash to you for no reason other than they can't be bothered to offer competitive salaries and want to trap pilots into servitude. Stay far away, there are so many better options out there. Remember that fixing yourself in one job for years might mean you miss the better seats while the music is playing, don't play their game while its in your favor...

If you are an instructor tell your students to avoid these people and so on. The end result is that they offer proper remuneration. Look at the mining industry, they cry so much that they need cheap international labor, when they cant get it they pay big bucks and offer FiFO and still make millions...

[Capt Fathom]

Anyone got any factual information to add?

[172heavy]

Anyone got any factual information to add?
Some factual information would be great. There must be at least one or two disgruntled current or ex employees out there somewhere.

[BK Breadroll]

Update: I had a friend of a friend reach out to me. They are currently flying for the company. I was told everyone there has been told not to comment on this forum or face the consequences. I was also advised the details here are accurate in terms of pay and bond with approximately 90% pilot turn over in the past 12 months. Players choice but I believe I've dodged a huge bullet here. Thanks again to everyone who provided me with solid advice 👏

[PoppaJo]

I was told everyone there has been told not to comment on this forum or face the consequences.
Right. They got called out for potential illegal work conditions, exploitation and fraud. And they want everyone to keep the mouth shut.

Okaaaaaaay.

[Clare Prop]

There is a course on CFIT?

[lucille]

There is a course on CFIT?

Yes. Jetstar offer it to every passenger. Although, they laughingly call it a landing.

[deja vu]

Would you be obliged to pay a bond if they fired you, say for habitual tardiness or poor performance or being politically incorrect. Would they pay your salary until the end of your 2 years if they decided to shut down the operation or were shutdown by the regulator for example or got rid of the Jetstream.

There are numerous reasons a pilot might need to move on apart from taking a better job. Could be domestic situation, mental health, failing a medical or even just living in Newcastle would be good reasons.

[43Inches]

Would you be obliged to pay a bond if they fired you, say for habitual tardiness or poor performance or being politically incorrect. Would they pay your salary until the end of your 2 years if they decided to shut down the operation or were shutdown by the regulator for example or got rid of the Jetstream.

There are numerous reasons a pilot might need to move on apart from taking a better job. Could be domestic situation, mental health, failing a medical or even just living in Newcastle would be good reasons.

That's all in the fine print usually and most likely bonds are payable for anything that is not the companies fault and you leave, such as being fired for not doing your job. This ain't an army movie where the conscript can pretend to be mad or whatever and get discharged.

As for what happens when the company goes broke, almost certain the fine print will not give back any monies paid, and you will receive any normal entitlements earned to that date as per the EBA or whatever agreement.

In reality you should not sign these sort of bond agreements without a lawyer viewing it first, $100k is a lot of money, even half of that.

[BronteExperimental]

In reality you should not sign these sort of bond agreements without a lawyer viewing it first, $100k is a lot of money, even half of that.
That is very sensible advice.
Unfortunately I’d estimate that about zero percent of pilots take that up.
But they shouldn’t have to either.
A sorry state

[lucille]

It’s a a bond … it’s not as though the candidate has to pay it upfront.

We are all grown ups. If you had a bare CPL with 200TT, then 2 years is small bananas. Different story if you had say 2500 hours with 1000 multi and tons of single pilot IFR.

For a barebones CPL, it’s a workable deal. For an experienced IFR charter pilot, it’s a complete dud of a contract.

Horses for coursee.

[Slippery_Pete]

Update: I had a friend of a friend reach out to me. They are currently flying for the company. I was told everyone there has been told not to comment on this forum or face the consequences. I was also advised the details here are accurate in terms of pay and bond with approximately 90% pilot turn over in the past 12 months. Players choice but I believe I've dodged a huge bullet here. Thanks again to everyone who provided me with solid advice 👏

Run far, far away and don’t look back!

There’s been an incredibly low number of pilots
learning to fly since COVID hit.

Anyone who accepts a BS bond deal in the current industrial is an A-grade muppet.

Pilots with 1000TT and 50 multi are getting jet jobs in Australia.

The idea that some people are putting up almost $100k worth of personal risk to fly a J32 is frankly, very frightening.

Get your CPL/MECIR. Work in GA and get 1000 hours as quick as you can and then start applying.

Even the cadet schemes are just becoming scams to lock people in and prevent them
from leaving.

If:
a) the cost of the course is excessive, or
b) the penalty for leaving early is harsh, or
c) the return of service is excessive, or
d) the bond is for an aircraft type that few operators use, or
e) you have to write a letter of solemn promises to the CEO and mow the grass…

… then it’s probably not the deal for you.

The current Australian pilot shortage (which is only going to get significantly worse for a long time) is the result of
a) not enough investment for many years in training and GA
b) an over-regulated GA industry that has crumbled
c) managers, who rather than address the core issues such as terms/conditions and the points above, are coming up with ways to try and lock pilots down.

Licensed pilots are the asset here. They need you to make their money. Don’t de-value yourselves.

Bond schemes in the current climate simply should not exist. If you want someone to come fly your aircraft you should make an environment conducive to making people want to stay.

Even mainline have SOs and FOs leaving as soon as they get their type rating. And yet rather than read the room and make it a good and rewarding place to work, they’re still trying to divide and conquer industrially.

If I had teenage kids, I wouldn’t even recommend they do the Qantas Cadetship. A bunch of money with zero guarantees and a long time potentially locked into crap subsidiaries like the Dash 8.

Go and get your licence, a thousand hours in GA and then decide where YOU want to go and on YOUR terms.

$95k to fly a Jetstream? Give. Me. A. Break.

[BK Breadroll]

Hi BK Breadroll, I’m not sure if you are still thinking of the job… I have tried to message you but can’t send anything until you’ve cleared your inbox. I’m getting a notification you’ve exceeded your quota ;-)
Hey versado, thanks for reaching out. My inbox was full of messages from current and recent ex-pilots telling me to steer well clear. Everything from legal action against current employees and ex employees to dodgy maintenance. It is safe to say I'm definitely not considering ever working for this operator.

[lucille]

BK Breadroll… if you have a bare CPL and 250hrs TT… then it will be worth enduring two years just to get 1500+ hours in a multi crew turboprop. The aircraft type is irrelevant, your next employer will value that experience.

Besides, tootling around in a radar equipped pressurised aircraft is streets more comfortable than getting banged about in a C210 in summer up north.

On the other hand if you have >1500 hrs TT, then it’s a rubbish deal.

Good Luck.

[Capt Fathom]

My inbox was full of messages from current and recent ex-pilots telling me to steer well clear. Everything from legal action against current employees and ex employees to dodgy maintenance. It is safe to say I'm definitely not considering ever working for this operator.

With only 4 posts, your Inbox would be full of no such thing!

[tail wheel]

$100,000 bond on a Jetstream 32? :eek:

Sounds like they also give you the aircraft as a bonus? :}

Expensive endorsement on a 56 year old aircraft design, well down the road to extinction.

[Mach E Avelli]

$100,000 bond on a Jetstream 32? :eek:

Sounds like they also give you the aircraft as a bonus? :}

Expensive endorsement on a 56 year old aircraft design, well down the road to extinction.
A worse liability would be to be given TWO of those old clunkers for $100k.

[Horatio Leafblower]

$100,000 bond on a Jetstream 32? :eek:

Sounds like they also give you the aircraft as a bonus? :}

Expensive endorsement on a 56 year old aircraft design, well down the road to extinction.

How many 19-seat turboprops are out there Taily?
B1900C/D
Metro 23
Jetstream 32.

You can buy 4 J32s for the price of one B1900D... if you can find one.

The Bond amount reflects the cost to the company in training you up.
The NEED to bond pilots reflects the mercenary actions of some pilots who take the training and the endorsement and scarper, leaving the operator (in this case) roughly $100k down the hole.

It is the smaller companies further down the tree least able to waste the time and money training people who just leave, and least able to afford to bribe people to stay. The companies further up the tree are simply taking advantage.
On the other hand, I seem to remember all the big operators dropping their pilots like the proverbial hot potato when COVID hit while the little operators kept everyone looked after.

[tail wheel]

You can buy 4 J32s for the price of one B1900D... if you can find one.

The price of Beech 1900D's must have reduced significantly in recent years. :}

The Bond amount reflects the cost to the company in training you up.
I would have thought $100K a bit rich to give a reasonably qualified and experienced pilot a conversion onto a J32?

[KAPAC]

No expert but 747 rating probably $30-$40 k usd ? 737 less ? $100k I’d get a global 7500 rating . Guess this offer comes with a job ? Feel sorry for kids who get bitten by aviation bug these days . Best advice would be to marry well to have support required for career in aviation . Good luck !

[lucille]

It’s a bond… no one is being asked to pay anything. After two years it gets written off to zero.

Now, if you only had 250TT, you’d be grateful for a chance to get a couple of years experience which will help you find a much better job. What’s not to like?

[Zombywoof]

With only 4 posts, your Inbox would be full of no such thing!Ha ha! Nailed!

[BK Breadroll]

The above mentioned company about to go into voluntary administration or shoring up their future? The grapevine rumours say 90% of their pilot workforce have moved on during the past couple of months to a large Brisbane based RPT/mining charter company. Engineering and admin staff have allegedly started being laid off in the past month and their CEO is allegedly in talks to hand back some of the leases they have at Newcastle Airport.

[Wizofoz]

The NEED to bond pilots reflects the mercenary actions of some pilots who take the training and the endorsement and scarper, leaving the operator (in this case) roughly $100k down the hole.


If only the capitalist system had a solution for this...

[Global Aviator]

No expert but 747 rating probably $30-$40 k usd ? 737 less ? $100k I’d get a global 7500 rating . Guess this offer comes with a job ? Feel sorry for kids who get bitten by aviation bug these days . Best advice would be to marry well to have support required for career in aviation . Good luck !

At $100k Aussie you wouldn’t even get a Global 7500 recurrent!

[172heavy]

The above mentioned company about to go into voluntary administration or shoring up their future? The grapevine rumours say 90% of their pilot workforce have moved on during the past couple of months to a large Brisbane based RPT/mining charter company. Engineering and admin staff have allegedly started being laid off in the past month and their CEO is allegedly in talks to hand back some of the leases they have at Newcastle Airport.
Mate, there is 4 pages of evidence here that FlyPelican are bottom feeders who pay a rubbish salary and appear to hold you against nearly 100K. Steer clear and give pprune a rest. There are plenty of better options out there.

[Track5milefinal]

No expert but 747 rating probably $30-$40 k usd ? 737 less ? $100k I’d get a global 7500 rating . Guess this offer comes with a job ? Feel sorry for kids who get bitten by aviation bug these days . Best advice would be to marry well to have support required for career in aviation . Good luck !

210K AUD for a Global 7500 initial at the moment :ouch:​​​​​​​

[HOVIS]

I said this on another thread but I'll say it again.
Good employers do not need to apply bonds.

[Capt Fathom]

Good employers do not need to apply bonds.

Haha. Can’t be many good employers out there then?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I said this on another thread but I'll say it again.
Good employers do not need to apply bonds.

Employees who are good for their word don't have bonds enforced on them.
As a small business employer I can't tell you how frustrating it is to invest limited time and money into a green, inexperienced employee ("I'm not going anywhere for yeaaaars") only to have them clear off 2 months later.

I had to put double the ICUS into one bloke this year to get him checked to line in a Baron. Two weeks later he gave notice that he was going to a Chieftain job.
These are the guys that destroy trust and force smaller GA employers, especially, to bond employees.

[HOVIS]

You made my point. Be a better employer.

[HOVIS]

Haha. Can’t be many good employers out there then?
There are plenty.

[morno]

You made my point. Be a better employer.

Exactly how has Horatio made your point? I see nothing that he has written that says “bad employer”, in fact, quite the opposite! He could have told the guy to go away when he couldn’t get up to speed in the normal ICUS time.

[43Inches]

Employees who are good for their word don't have bonds enforced on them.
As a small business employer I can't tell you how frustrating it is to invest limited time and money into a green, inexperienced employee ("I'm not going anywhere for yeaaaars") only to have them clear off 2 months later.

I had to put double the ICUS into one bloke this year to get him checked to line in a Baron. Two weeks later he gave notice that he was going to a Chieftain job.
These are the guys that destroy trust and force smaller GA employers, especially, to bond employees.

GA has been this way for years, just the employees have the upper hand now and the employers have to be seriously picky about who they choose. When I started work in the 90s every 20 something CPL said they wanted to fly a twin until they died of old age. They stuck around only as long as they had to and moved on, which was usually a few years due to airline entry requirements of the day. Having known a lot of GA business owners this was fine with them as they only ever wanted a third or less of pilots to stick around to keep the senior positions filled, and these were usually older flyers who had missed the airline age cutoff back in the 70s, there were a few younger crew as well that made it on the list but most moved as soon as they could. Now that 2/3rds of other pilots were basically told if you don't like it, fck off, in those words, or were on casual and if they slacked off another three pilots were hired to keep em all hungry for work.

Today the tap has to be adjusted to retain pilots, unfortunately that means a totally different approach to hiring. Almost no 20 something year old new CPL is going to hang around, unless you make them feel like demi gods, that is with pay and conditions GA probably can not afford. GA really needs to adjust the picture to attract senior pilots back to GA, yes the pay and conditions will have to make it worth it, but these guys will stick around given the right job, pay and working hours, which will make it cheaper than the constant training of low experienced guys that will probably wreck your planes anyway.

[PiperCameron]

Today the tap has to be adjusted to retain pilots, unfortunately that means a totally different approach to hiring. Almost no 20 something year old new CPL is going to hang around, unless you make them feel like demi gods, that is with pay and conditions GA probably can not afford. GA really needs to adjust the picture to attract senior pilots back to GA, yes the pay and conditions will have to make it worth it, but these guys will stick around given the right job, pay and working hours, which will make it cheaper than the constant training of low experienced guys that will probably wreck your planes anyway.

Unfortunately, not just pilots.. pretty much any on-airport role these days.

[Mr Mossberg]

You made my point. Be a better employer.

I have heard from a few ex pilots the type of progression that this fellow offers, you'd have to be a short sighted clown to leave under the circumstances that the "Chieftain" pilot left.

Whilst HL is better off without this "pilot" doesn't help that he spent significant time and money. Also doesn't help that the legal system doesn't back him up.

[Mach E Avelli]

I have heard from a few ex pilots the type of progression that this fellow offers, you'd have to be a short sighted clown to leave under the circumstances that the "Chieftain" pilot left.

Whilst HL is better off without this "pilot" doesn't help that he spent significant time and money. Also doesn't help that the legal system doesn't back him up.
Leafy perhaps can derive small comfort in being rid of a substandard pilot with few scruples, who has perhaps gone to an opposition company. If he took so long to check out in a Baron, he may not be too flash operating a Chieftain.
At some stage an astute potential employer may look at this guy’s logbooks and the interview could go something like this:
Interviewer: “ I see you logged 20 hours ICUS in Baron, then flew it for two weeks before changing jobs. Please explain”
Candidate: “ I saw a better career move would be to fly a Chieftain; the company I was with did not offer much by way of advancement” Etc.
A bit more probing, and these types unravel, especially if they bag a former employer, or show abnormal ICUS time on relatively simple aircraft.
For all the candidate knows, the interviewer may hold the initial employer in high regard, and/or call for a reference.
I was contacted to give a reference on a pilot who had below average skills and a poor attitude. Although one can decline to give a reference, giving a bad reference can lead to litigation, so I simply stated that I would not hesitate to recommend that pilot to any competitor.

[43Inches]

Unfortunately for HL the next step in the pilot/skills shortage will probably not benefit GA at all. With the rorts and poor conversion rate of the private subsidy system to actual working pilots I foresee the next tranche of subsidies to be direct to the airline cadet schemes. The cadet schemes will train their own instructors and feed cadets into other aspects of the business, like aeromedical and freight operations (not naming any company in particular). Having now a cost advantage and limited career pathways for outsiders and privately trained students it will drain a lot of local trainees from independent schools and industry. Unfortunately I see no other way the government will proceed if the perceived shortage gets any worse, especially if QF group starts playing it's hand. This will be the enemy, not overseas pilots or such.

[deja vu]

Personally I hope the Baron pilot enjoys his new Chieftan job.

Where the hell do people think they have the right to hold someone back because it's inconvenient to an operator who has not contributed a brass razoo to that pilots CPL.
A 60 minute endorsement is a cost of doing business, FCOL, 20 hours ICUS is not a cost but is made to sound like the pilot made the right decision.

[Capt Fathom]

Just because you have paid for a CPL, doesn't give you the right to p!ss off soon after your employer had invested time and money into your employment.
I'd love Horatio to reveal what this pilot said during his / her interview with him. :E

[Mr Mossberg]

Personally I hope the Baron pilot enjoys his new Chieftan job.

And his new employer, he/she is the poor bastard that will 'enjoy' the pilots job.

​​​​​​​Where the hell do people think they have the right to hold someone back because it's inconvenient to an operator who has not contributed a brass razoo to that pilots CPL.

Hold him back? You're serious? These days Baron time is the same as Chieftain, it's about getting the 500 in command and it doesn't matter if you get it in a Cri Cri or a Metro. I reckon I've met this type of person several times over the years.

​​​​​​​A 60 minute endorsement is a cost of doing business, FCOL, 20 hours ICUS is not a cost but is made to sound like the pilot made the right decision.

A 60 minute endorsement :D Like the chap that killed how many people in Launy going back a few years. The good ole 60 minute endorsement, the one that will come back to haunt whomever conducted it. I'm sure the insurance companies are just loving the 60 minute'rs as well.

On the ICUS point, you haven't flown with the new crop of pilot right? Been a while?

[deja vu]

Just because you have paid for a CPL, doesn't give you the right to p!ss off soon after your employer had invested time and money into your employment.
I'd love Horatio to reveal what this pilot said during his / her interview with him. :E

The pilot wants a job, the employer wants a pilot, simples, use-use as it always has been. Boo bloody hoo, invested time and money and paying the pilot around one third of a Melbourne tram drivers pay, all for a Baron endorsement. When GA is offering a worthwhile career it may stop being a stepping stone. I have no sympathy for an employers poor choice of employee.

Horatio is a big boy-girl, harden up, it's the real world.

[Mr Mossberg]

Like a Melbourne tram drivers pay has got anything to do with anything. Heavily unionised workforce in a state where the fuhrer bribes unions for their electoral support. But great comparison, maybe compare to an industry where there's an oversupply of labour?

[Checkboard]

60 minute endorsement??

When I got endorsed on the Navajo, we packed six people in, changed seats in the air and got 'em ALL done in 60 minutes! It's not a complicated aircraft.

[HOVIS]

Exactly how has Horatio made your point? I see nothing that he has written that says “bad employer”, in fact, quite the opposite! He could have told the guy to go away when he couldn’t get up to speed in the normal ICUS time.
If an employee wants to leave it's usually for at least one of these reasons.
Better pay.
Better conditions.
Better treatment.
Progression... Type training or promotion.
The first 3 are within the gift of all employers. If as an employer you have tried the first 3 without success there is little you can do to hold on to an ambitious individual.
In my experience successive employers used number 4 more often, meanwhile, pay, T&Cs got worse and worse.
The worm has turned, good people are hard to come by and pay is finally getting back to being what it should be.

[neville_nobody]

One of the biggest gripes I had in GA was the over inflated perception that owners had of their own business. They all seemed to think they were equivalent to Emirates or Qantas. It was just insane. Often led by a Chief Pilot who couldn't make it in an airline there was often animosity toward those who did could make it. They always got away with it of course because there was always a large oversupply of labour. That has now changed and GA operators will have to rethink their entire method of operation and that may mean the entire industry has become unviable.

[Capt Fathom]

GA operators will have to rethink their entire method of operation and that may mean the entire industry has become unviable

It's not just GA, it's most businesses in Australia that have suffered under the increasing weight of BS bought on by all levels of Government. We used to be a very smart country, but we are now struggling just to achieve the basics.

[V1 rotated]

Not sure where people are getting their facts from but my mate started their recently and is really enjoying it, apparently the bond is only around $35k for 2 years. But as others have said is $0 if you stay for the 2 years.

[Mr Mossberg]

When I got endorsed on the Navajo

How long ago was that Checko? 70's? 80's? And I reckon every lawyer in Australia is salivating at 61.385 and the 60 minute endo if an accident ever happened. Might be worth repeating, have you had much to do with the 'average' CPL coming off the production line?

​​​​​​​They always got away with it of course because there was always a large oversupply of labour. That has now changed and GA operators will have to rethink their entire method of operation and that may mean the entire industry has become unviable.

There is not an undersupply in this market, they're still falling out of shaken trees, but now they have a total of about 220 hours which includes a MEIR.

​​​​​​​We used to be a very smart country, but we are now struggling just to achieve the basics.

Sorry, Australia has never been a 'very smart country' EVER. There may have been the odd smart Australian but country? No.

[Checkboard]

How long ago was that Checko? 70's? 80's?
80's - I'm not that old :D Yeah - everyone knew it was well dodgy at the time, but the guy doing the endorsing was 65 and about to retire, so didn't care that much. :D

... and the guys getting endorsed were also aware, so were doing a lot of self study in the manuals etc. It all worked out OK in the end. Think I've got about 250 hours in Navajos, bit more in Barons. Most of your learning you do after the endorsement in any case.

[43Inches]

80's - I'm not that old :D Yeah - everyone knew it was well dodgy at the time, but the guy doing the endorsing was 65 and about to retire, so didn't care that much. :D

... and the guys getting endorsed were also aware, so were doing a lot of self study in the manuals etc. It all worked out OK in the end. Think I've got about 250 hours in Navajos, bit more in Barons. Most of your learning you do after the endorsement in any case.

Hence a spate of Navajo crashes in the 90s led to CAA/CASA getting touchy about endorsement training.

[Horatio Leafblower]

So HOVIS and Neville

If an employee tells me they will be leaving in 3 months, or they have active applications elsewhere, I can then make an informed decision to train them up or not. Maybe there is another pilot in the company who will appreciate it more or perhaps is a better candidate, but junior to the first guy?

Just confirming you are saying that it is OK for a pilot to say anything to get the job, or lie to get the promotion, knowing full well all along that they will leave without meeting the undertaking they made?

You are saying that small employers should just waste their limited time and resources on anyone?

[deja vu]

Like a Melbourne tram drivers pay has got anything to do with anything. Heavily unionised workforce in a state where the fuhrer bribes unions for their electoral support. But great comparison, maybe compare to an industry where there's an oversupply of labour?
It matters not one iota how it came to be that a Melbourne tram driver is paid more than double what our pilot earns, despite having allegedly just spent $150K to get the ticket, its reality, a fact. Its got everything to do with everything

So now our newby pilot is obligated to work for someone for some unspecified amount of time flying his ****box Baron.There could be dozens of reasons our pilot chose to move on apart from a Chieftain being more cool. We could pick this story to pieces all day long. But frankly, I think if I had ever worked for the oh so busy Mr.leaf blower type I'd be gone too.

It is my understanding that it is common practice, if not mandated, that a new employee enters a period of probation, where an employer or an employee can end the relationship virtually at a moments notice without the usual obligations. I am told it happens on a regular basis but is normally a one way street in the operators favour, of course.

Trouble with GA ,as it always has been, is these pissant operators cutting each others throats to get the work at a very marginal rates because they are dreamers. No one wins in the end

[Mach E Avelli]

Some pissant operators running ****box aircraft have no interest in abiding by the GA Award. Entry level pilots who can only get jobs with said operators fulfil a function as “meat in the seat”. They accept sub standard conditions, nurse the clapped out machinery ( in the interests of self preservation), build hours and move on. The operator makes 2% profit but claims losses at tax time.
Like many a marriage, it’s a case of mutual rescue, in which both parties get what they deserve.

[HOVIS]

So HOVIS and Neville

If an employee tells me they will be leaving in 3 months, or they have active applications elsewhere, I can then make an informed decision to train them up or not. Maybe there is another pilot in the company who will appreciate it more or perhaps is a better candidate, but junior to the first guy?

Just confirming you are saying that it is OK for a pilot to say anything to get the job, or lie to get the promotion, knowing full well all along that they will leave without meeting the undertaking they made?

You are saying that small employers should just waste their limited time and resources on anyone?
They are leaving for a reason. If its because you are a bad employer, be a better employer. Pay better, when they need time off for that special occasion, let them have it. Be a nice person. Treat people like human beings, not like pieces of meat, don't flog em to death.

[Capt Fathom]

They are leaving for a reason.

Yes. They are selfish, greedy and it is all about them. They will do and say anything to get their next endorsement. And they are the ones that ruin it for the genuine ones that follow.

[Mr Mossberg]

They accept sub standard conditions

Awwww my gawd, I think you'd better take a poll of every pilot sitting in the left or right seat at a jet operator. You ALL did it, not one of you left GA better than when you entered it. It started with YOU.

[samb02]

Except that they don't hire freshies. 300 MEIFR PIC and 3 IPCs are the minimums :zzz: