RAaus training advice

[haviator]

I've been in training for my RPC for the past few weeks and am a little concerned I'm not getting efficient use of training time so wanted to check if I'm being pedantic about it or if it sounds about right.

Usually lessons are going for about 0.8 - 0.9 hours on the hobbs - never quite get a full hour in. I check all my flights on flightrader after and I'm only getting 30-35mins time in the air according to flightrader. I can't be spending more than 10 mins on the ground doing checks and taxiing. My training aerodrome is a smallish untowered aerodrome 45mins out of Melbourne that's usually not that busy so I hardly have to wait on the ground.

For example, today I was scheduled for a stalls. I got charged for 0.9 hours, flight was around 34mins according to flightrader but we only managed 3 stalls. We climbed to 3500' did a few checks, instructor did 1 stall and then I did 3 and then we returned. 2 of these were idle config stalls and one approach stall. All my lessons feel rushed and I'm always waiting for my instructor when my lesson should be scheduled to start. By the time we get airborne, we're already behind and so everything is rushed. They book lessons 1.5hours apart.

Turns spilled into 2 lessons because we only managed to do a few level turns in one lesson and climbing / descending turns in the second. Basic stalls now will spill over to another lesson because I only got to do 3 stalls in this lesson.

Am I being overly sensitive or is that about right how these lessons go?

[Cloudee]

Doesn’t sound like an efficient use of your time. If you’re not happy with your instructor or school try another, you don’t have to sign up, just do a lesson until you find an outfit you’re comfortable with.

[PiperCameron]

Welcome to the funny farm, haviator! :ok:

For example, today I was scheduled for a stalls. I got charged for 0.9 hours, flight was around 34mins according to flightrader but we only managed 3 stalls. We climbed to 3500' did a few checks, instructor did 1 stall and then I did 3 and then we returned. 2 of these were idle config stalls and one approach stall. All my lessons feel rushed and I'm always waiting for my instructor when my lesson should be scheduled to start. By the time we get airborne, we're already behind and so everything is rushed. They book lessons 1.5hours apart.

First off, the $$$ start ticking over the moment the engine starts so, depending upon how long it takes for the engine to warm up, taxi, do your ground checks (all for sure longer than 10 minutes) plus taxi back and park (possibly another 10 minutes) that's 0.3 hours right there. Added to your 34 minutes flight time is where you money is going. If the lessons feel rushed, it sounds like they probably are.

If I was you I'd:
1. Book more time with your instructor to make up for the lost time on the ground - ask about 2hr bookings rather than 1.
2. Consider switching your initial training to FlyOnE's AlphaElectro: https://flyone.com.au/electricaircraft/alphaelectro/ - there's one at Lilydale - which may work out cheaper $/hr at the starting-out phase of your training.
3. Find a new flight school, starting with booking a TIF (it's generally cheaper)

Good luck!

[Mach E Avelli]

It would be interesting to know how the operator records time in service for maintenance, because that is one indication of aircraft running costs. If there is a disparity between what is logged for maintenance and what you are being charged, you are being ripped off.
There was a time gone by when engine tachometer was the only measure of what got charged, and what got entered in the maintenance release. The old tachos under-recorded at low RPM, so prolonged taxi time did not hurt the student’s wallet.
Good operators taught pilots to do run up checks expeditiously and from memory. They rightly did not want their air cooled engines subject to excessive ground operating time.
It was also common to do some checks, such as radio functions, then get clearances, then set up navaids etc before engine start.
If you are flying out of a quiet, uncontrolled airport, I can’t think of any simple single engine aircraft that needs in excess of ten minutes to warm up and complete checks of the very few items that need doing after engine start.
If you are in any position to negotiate (it’s your money), I would suggest actual air time plus 10 minutes is what you should pay…and log. That being a 7 minute allowance for start and taxi out and 3 minutes taxy in and shut down. Logging more time on the ground may be legal, but it’s bull**** because it has no learning value.
Some know-all will flame me for the preceding three sentences because it is not what the rules say about what a pilot should log as flight time. To which I reply in advance that rules are for guidance of the wise and for the blind obedience of fools.

[haviator]

Welcome to the funny farm, haviator! :ok:

First off, the $$$ start ticking over the moment the engine starts so, depending upon how long it takes for the engine to warm up, taxi, do your ground checks (all for sure longer than 10 minutes) plus taxi back and park (possibly another 10 minutes) that's 0.3 hours right there. Added to your 34 minutes flight time is where you money is going. If the lessons feel rushed, it sounds like they probably are.


Yeah, I'd agree that it could be a little longer on ground for starting, doing checks taxiing etc. - it just doesn't feel THAT long especially since I'm getting quicker at doing checks, radio and getting up there now. I should actually time everything next time using a stopwatch to be sure. There's also +/- 0.1 error there due to whether hobbs meter just turned over or just about to turn over at engine start / stop.


If I was you I'd:
1. Book more time with your instructor to make up for the lost time on the ground - ask about 2hr bookings rather than 1.
2. Consider switching your initial training to FlyOnE's AlphaElectro: - there's one at Lilydale - which may work out cheaper $/hr at the starting-out phase of your training.
3. Find a new flight school, starting with booking a TIF (it's generally cheaper)

Good luck!

1. I've thought about that. I'll bring it up next lesson. 0.3 ground + 1.7 air is much more efficient than 0.3 ground + 0.6 air.
2. Good luck getting bookings on that at YLIL. Today the owner of flyoneE was there and had the whole day booked out for TIFs for "clients". It's not cheaper than the Vixxens I'd imagine anyway - Cheaper to run but not cheaper to hire.
3. No other feasible RAaus school this close to Melbourne unfortunately so I'm stuck.

Wondering if any point bringing up my concerns with them?

[haviator]

It would be interesting to know how the operator records time in service for maintenance, because that is one indication of aircraft running costs. If there is a disparity between what is logged for maintenance and what you are being charged, you are being ripped off.
There was a time gone by when engine tachometer was the only measure of what got charged, and what got entered in the maintenance release. The old tachos under-recorded at low RPM, so prolonged taxi time did not hurt the student’s wallet.
Good operators taught pilots to do run up checks expeditiously and from memory. They rightly did not want their air cooled engines subject to excessive ground operating time.
It was also common to do some checks, such as radio functions, then get clearances, then set up navaids etc before engine start.
If you are flying out of a quiet, uncontrolled airport, I can’t think of any simple single engine aircraft that needs in excess of ten minutes to warm up and complete checks of the very few items that need doing after engine start.
If you are in any position to negotiate (it’s your money), I would suggest actual air time plus 10 minutes is what you should pay…and log. That being a 7 minute allowance for start and taxi out and 3 minutes taxy in and shut down. Logging more time on the ground may be legal, but it’s bull**** because it has no learning value.
Some know-all will flame me for the preceding three sentences because it is not what the rules say about what a pilot should log as flight time. To which I reply in advance that rules are for guidance of the wise and for the blind obedience of fools.

I don't think there's any funny business going on with the meter. I'm going to try and time the next lesson with my watch and note down time start, time depart, time arrive, time eng off - I keep forgetting to do that cause I'm trying to focus on lesson and everything I need to do.

I just want to spend more time doing the maneuver's to really learn them. I think it's really like 15-20mins actual lesson time - the rest is on the ground, climbing/descending, landing or transiting to/from training area. I'm going to insist on extending the lesson to 2 hours to maximize actual training time as a ratio of all the other activities.

As for how lessons should be charged, I won't touch that one. There's clearly some varying interpretation of what's fair and what's not. I just want to learn to fly in a fair and reasonable manner while getting value for my training money...

[djpil]

... Usually lessons are going for about 0.8 - 0.9 hours on the hobbs - never quite get a full hour in. I check all my flights on flightrader after and I'm only getting 30-35mins time in the air according to flightrader. ... but we only managed 3 stalls...... They book lessons 1.5hours apart. 0.3 on the ground is typical however you will get a little quicker at your smallish aerodrome later in your training. 0.5 - 0.6 in the air doesn't allow much time for stalling exercises by the time you climb to altitude. An extra 0.1-0.2 for the flight would've significantly increased the time dedicated to stall practice.
Did the instructor give any reason for the shorter flight - what did he/she write in your training records?
A 1.5 hr slot is typical - but very tight. Do you get a satisfactory pre-flight briefing and post-flight debrief (long theory briefing as appropriate in advance)?
I don't want the answers to those questions but I suggest that you consider them and sit down with the Head of Operations, training records in front of you, to discuss these concerns.

... Consider switching your initial training to FlyOnE's AlphaElectro: https://flyone.com.au/electricaircraft/alphaelectro/ - there's one at Lilydale .. They've been advertising it at $190 per hour "HALF THE PRICE of other legacy aircraft options" however Lilydale has a Jabiru at $120-132 and Vixxen at $130-143. Data from a friend who flew the electric machine shows that it has a 30 minute endurance (plus minimum reserve) at around 70 kts so an even worse situation than haviator is in now.

[Horatio Leafblower]

My school schedules lessons 2.0-2.5 hours apart.
No way can you get a full hour of your instructor's time in a 1.5 turnaround.

Assuming you have done the Long Brief prior (I suspect there's no such thing), preflight briefing should be 15-25 minutes, preflight inspection/Daily Inspection 10-15 mins (25-30 if refuelling).

I can't see how your flying school can get away with less than a 2-hour booking for a 1.0 flight.
...but I am only new at this (25 years and still learning) so IDK.

[haviator]

My school schedules lessons 2.0-2.5 hours apart.
No way can you get a full hour of your instructor's time in a 1.5 turnaround.

Assuming you have done the Long Brief prior (I suspect there's no such thing), preflight briefing should be 15-25 minutes, preflight inspection/Daily Inspection 10-15 mins (25-30 if refuelling).

I can't see how your flying school can get away with less than a 2-hour booking for a 1.0 flight.
...but I am onl new at this so IDK.

Yep that's what I suspect as well - it's the 1.5h bookings that make it tough for the instructors and bad for us students. Another 30mins of allocated time per lesson would do a world of good for (almost) everybody involved.

We've not had any long briefings to be honest. Lessons usually go something like this:
- Preflight checks I've started doing alone now and they take me about 10-15mins. I do these while instructor is cleaning up the previous lesson.
- Preflight briefings are about 10-15mins but that's more my fault - I prepare religiously so there's not a whole lot of detail to cover pre-flight.
- Flight / lesson
- Post-flight briefing is the few minutes packing up the plane + the walk from the aircraft to the office.

Haven't had to refuel yet - I dare say if it take 20-30mins, this can kill the whole days schedule if lessons are booked back to back to back.

Based on the feedback here, I don't think I'm overblowing the situation and my gut feel about not feeling like I'm getting fair value / fair training is valid. I think I'm going to have to have a chat with the head of operations.

[haviator]

0.3 on the ground is typical however you will get a little quicker at your smallish aerodrome later in your training. 0.5 - 0.6 in the air doesn't allow much time for stalling exercises by the time you climb to altitude. An extra 0.1-0.2 for the flight would've significantly increased the time dedicated to stall practice.
Did the instructor give any reason for the shorter flight - what did he/she write in your training records?
A 1.5 hr slot is typical - but very tight. Do you get a satisfactory pre-flight briefing and post-flight debrief (long theory briefing as appropriate in advance)?
I don't want the answers to those questions but I suggest that you consider them and sit down with the Head of Operations, training records in front of you, to discuss these concerns.

They've been advertising it at $190 per hour "HALF THE PRICE of other legacy aircraft options" however Lilydale has a Jabiru at $120-132 and Vixxen at $130-143. Data from a friend who flew the electric machine shows that it has a 30 minute endurance (plus minimum reserve) at around 70 kts so an even worse situation than haviator is in now.

No more Jabiru's at Lilydale. Only Vixxens and GA aircraft. Vixxen dual rates are currently $260 (midweek) or $286 (weekend) or $140-154 solo. I don't think the electric plane would be useful with such a short flight time and I think they're comparing it's price to GA aircraft prices. It's really more comparable to RA ultralights given it's specs.

[tossbag]

It would be interesting to know how the operator records time in service for maintenance, because that is one indication of aircraft running costs. If there is a disparity between what is logged for maintenance and what you are being charged, you are being ripped off.

Rotax maintenance is based on VDO, the moment it kicks over to the moment it's shut off goes on the MR. So there's no advantage in extending ground time while the engine's running.

[phlegm]

Based on the feedback here, I don't think I'm overblowing the situation and my gut feel about not feeling like I'm getting fair value / fair training is valid. I think I'm going to have to have a chat with the head of operations.

Knowing the person you're talking about, I'm very curious how that turns out.

I trained at that school and while it was mostly pretty good, the quality of the training varied a fair bit depending on who I flew with. I'd discuss your concerns with your instructor and if they're not meeting your expectations, don't feel bad about switching to someone else.

That said, part of your complaint is just the reality of learning to fly: you're always going to burn time doing your pre-takeoff checks, getting into the training area and starting whatever the lesson is about. It's actually a lot better at YLIL than many other airports since you rarely have to wait on the ground and the training area is right next to the field. You could consider asking for a double slot for your lessons so you can spend more time doing stalls/turns etc, they'll probably give you a bit of pushback if you're early in your training but it can definitely be done.

[Mach E Avelli]

Your plan to book longer sessions to minimise the percentage of ground time, and less useful time in transit to the training area is a good idea. I still think 0.3 ground time per flight is excessive at an airfield where there are no traffic delays. 0.2 should be plenty.
But, that issue aside, if you are not getting clear briefings and constructive debriefings, you certainly need to discuss it with the operator.
Learning to fly is unusual in business in that the customer is not always right (the instructor should be), but your money does give you some say in how you expect training sessions to be conducted. If the school has its instructors on 30 minute turnarounds, that’s a business model to make money without delivering quality.
Find an operator who devotes more time to each student.

[hobbit1983]

All my lessons feel rushed and I'm always waiting for my instructor when my lesson should be scheduled to start. By the time we get airborne, we're already behind and so everything is rushed. They book lessons 1.5hours apart.



(UK) flight instructor here. For a full hour's flying time, you need a 2 hour slot. For a good decent lesson, you need an hour's flying. Especially if it's upper air work (i.e. climbing for stalls). If you're feeling rushed, that's probably a failing of your instructor. They should be managing the lesson so you get the maximum learning benefit from it. Can't do that if you're rushed.

Am I being overly sensitive or is that about right how these lessons go?

I don't think you're being overly sensitive. Nothing wrong with doing preflight by yourself (after a certain point in training!) or a quick walk and talk debrief. However, you do need to be unhurried and unrushed, and a decent preflight brief.

[Clare Prop]

1.5 isn't long enough for a lesson slot, no wonder you feel rushed and it's no good for anyone when things run late. 0.8 is plenty of aeroplane time to get the lesson done in the early stages when the student is well prepared. The things you learn on the ground are just as important as the things in the air so that's not "wasted" time especially if you are at an uncontrolled aerodrome and not stuck at the holding point. Plus the instructor is entitled to be paid for that time. Sometimes lessons can overlap and a good instructor will be able to improvise according to the conditions if necessary. If they are doing it because they are rushing to get back for the next person or last light then that IS a problem you need to address with them. In a smaller aeroplane there is the issue that it will take a while to get to altitude for the stall recoveries so that should be taken into consideration when they time the lesson slot.

When we get students come in unhappy with their flying schools we always encourage them to talk to their instructor first and often these things can be resolved without all the upheaval of moving schools.

[djpil]

Yep that's what I suspect as well - it's the 1.5h bookings that make it tough for the instructors and bad for us students. Another 30mins of allocated time per lesson would do a world of good for (almost) everybody involved.Yes, as others have stated, an hour flight lesson needs much more than 1.5 hr. As I stated, 1.5 is typical - I've worked part time with various flight schools over the years, some have changed, others haven't. Some schools allow their instructors more flexibility in bookings schedules than others. I've been beaten up by a CFI at an aero club for my longer bookings. Of course, my income was less too as casual instructors get paid on flight time per the award.

haviator, you will find other schools nearby which now work to a more suitable schedule if yours won't change.

We've not had any long briefings to be honest.You may find the syllabus for your school interesting, as well as reading your own training records.

I prepare religiously so there's not a whole lot of detail to cover pre-flight.Good work, you should do well. Unfortunately, I encounter too many students these days who must be spoonfed.

No more Jabiru's at Lilydale. I got my info from Lilydale's website.

[haviator]

Thanks for all the comments and insight - It certainly seems worth bringing up in a casual non-confrontational way. I just didn't have any point of reference to compare against so wasn't sure if my expectations were too high or not. I don't really want to move schools - I like the place but I just want a little more time. I'll have a chat with them next lesson.

I also just want to be clear that I'm not trying to beat up on the school. I don't think they're intentionally trying to offer a bad service or do anything shady and I'm sure they've trained hundreds of good pilots over the many decades they've been there. The instructors and staff are friendly and helpful, the prices are reasonable, aerodrome condition is good etc. I have nothing to complain about other than the lesson times and maybe quality

[Squawk7700]

I have nothing to complain about other than the lesson times and maybe quality

Quality is a big one! You can’t change that easily with a discussion.

I’d be looking at the aircraft type in particular and how well it looks to be maintained. That would be deal breaker for me if I was starting out again (General comment, I don’t even know which school is being spoken about).

[PiperCameron]

They've been advertising it at $190 per hour "HALF THE PRICE of other legacy aircraft options" however Lilydale has a Jabiru at $120-132 and Vixxen at $130-143. Data from a friend who flew the electric machine shows that it has a 30 minute endurance (plus minimum reserve) at around 70 kts so an even worse situation than haviator is in now.

Hmm.. not quite so. It's complicated. AIUI, you're only charged whilst the prop is spinning (which it doesn't whilst waiting at the holding point), there is no 'run-up' required, less instruments to check and endurance is completely dependent upon the kind of flying you're doing (down low and circuit training being optimal) - so depending upon traffic at the time, I'd still see it as something worth investigating early on in the flying journey on an oranges to apples basis.

That being said, if it's currently unavailable for serious training then I guess that rules it out of consideration. Maybe wait a year or two?

I got my info from Lilydale's website.

See there's your problem - they haven't updated their web-site in recent years. Cactus knows when (if ever) they will!!

[PiperCameron]

https://youtu.be/VaL4xfl5ja4

[tossbag]

God put dinosaurs on the earth for a reason.

[Squawk7700]

People think powering these electric motors is free because it comes out of a wall socket.

[tossbag]

The clown promoting the pipistrel trainer is full of it. It is clearly not anything a school can use effectively when a 90 minute recharge is required between flights for a sub 1.0 flight. He's also promoting a viable recharging network between airports, clearly airports need to be no more than 60nm apart. There's no doubt, that one day they will be viable, but not now and they are not environmentally friendly.

[PiperCameron]

The clown promoting the pipistrel trainer is full of it. It is clearly not anything a school can use effectively when a 90 minute recharge is required between flights for a sub 1.0 flight. He's also promoting a viable recharging network between airports, clearly airports need to be no more than 60nm apart. There's no doubt, that one day they will be viable, but not now and they are not environmentally friendly.

At the risk of talking this further off-topic (and with apologies to the original poster), I was amused to read in the news that Tecnam have pulled the pin on R&D of their "P-Volt" electric twin, Apparently the batteries just don't last as long as the manufacturers claim they do, meaning you could find your planned sub-1hr flight ending a random number of minutes after take-off with little or no warning at all!! ...and most likely one hour (or less) after the battery warranty expires.:}

https://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/tecnam-stops-work-on-p-volt

..and with that, we now return you to your previously-scheduled program...

[djpil]

.. I was amused to read in the news that Tecnam have pulled the pin on R&D of their "P-Volt" electric twin...
From a friend who works at Tecnam:
"What I have learned the most in 18 years of #aircraft design, 12 of those with Professor Luigi Pascale teaching me everything he could, participating with a fantastic team to 10 airplanes designs including “my son”, my own design FR-01 Snap, is that the most important lesson in the aircraft design is that you should never fall in love with your idea(s), trying to make “aerobatics” around concepts just to demonstrate (mainly to yourself) that they are valid. There is just and only one judge in the #aviation, and it is the market. This is a strange era, where the aviation world is not easy to decrypt as it seems sometimes more interested in collecting and signing announcements… but the lesson doesn’t change: a product needs to fulfill real market needs, and if #technology doesn’t allow, looking at the reality is the best way instead of following “waves”. Did the Company abandon the #sustainability concept? Not really, as we are currently the single-source fleet supplier for Flight Schools with the lowest #emissions in the world. Sustainability is also this, not necessarily a trend made by keywords. In the next 10 years, the demand will be for 260.000 new pilots: training them with the Tecnam fleet could mean in saving up to 2,39 million tons of #co2 or up to 5.000 liters of fuel for every single CPL student… Do you think there is any possibility to do better from now to 2033? Sustainability is a consequence of efficient aircraft design, making possible the technology integration, once they are suited for the purpose. Be sure that, once they will be ready, we’ll be on the (real) market sooner than you can imagine!"

[Flydeetwo]

I trained at the school you’re referring to and it is absolutely possible to book out two-lesson blocks.

I went up with multiple instructors during the early phases and learned a lot by doing so because they each provided slightly different perspectives, which I have blended into my own.

My opinion about the time associated with ground checks is they are integral to our training and flying experience, each and every time we fly and they need to be thorough and never rushed. During one of the checks I discovered an issue which led to the plane not going up and we used an alternative.

My advice based on my own experience is: find an instructor you’re comfortable with and book double lessons and agree with them up front what you want to achieve.