717 phased out by mid-2024 in favour of A220

[aviator's_anonymous]

Quite an ambitious timeline for the retirement of the 717s. Question begs to see how quick the A220s will be delivered. And greatest question of all, who will get to fly them?

https://australianaviation.com.au/2023/05/qantas-prepares-for-end-of-boeing-717-era/

[morno]

What world have you been in when you don’t know who’s flying them?

[zlin77]

Saw a 717 on the ramp at RJCC (CTS New Chitose Airport) in Japan on Saturday, I assume being ferried to new owners.

[markis10]

Saw a 717 on the ramp at RJCC (CTS New Chitose Airport) in Japan on Saturday, I assume being ferried to new owners.

NXJ headed to VCV but went us at CTS

[davidclarke]

What world have you been in when you don’t know who’s flying them?

Dude it was clearly a rhetorical question………

Maybe more appropriate is ‘Where in the world will they get pilots to fly them on the conditions being offered’

[43Inches]

Dude it was clearly a rhetorical question………

Maybe more appropriate is ‘Where in the world will they get pilots to fly them on the conditions being offered’

Rex and QLink Dash 8 operations.

[Asturias56]

I suspect the passengers wil breathe a sigh of relief -

[aussieflyboy]

Must be a nice little win for the 717 Pilots. I imagine they’ll be getting a little bump up in Salary when they transfer across to the bigger jet.

[DashTrash.]

Must be a nice little win for the 717 Pilots. I imagine they’ll be getting a little bump up in Salary when they transfer across to the bigger jet.

mate, they will get 717 wages to fly an aircraft that’s closer in size and pax capacity to a 737. What we are witnessing here is the death of mainline SH

[Capt Fathom]

Would the real Qantas please identify yourself?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Based on the rhetoric from mates on the 717 the next EBA will be war from the outset. There is a lot of very open agro about the sh!t pay and conditions post the now infamous “strategic imperatives” brow beating and no one gives two sh!ts about the shiny new jet.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Love the pic. TOGA TAP anyone….

[CaptainInsaneO]

Ah! The ol', we'll get them next EBA speech

[RealSatoshi]

Ah! The ol', we'll get them next EBA speech
Classic :}

[Transition Layer]

The A220 is touted as a B717 replacement, but can anyone spot the obvious difference (apologies for the grainy pic), courtesy of today’s investor briefing…


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1714x856/img_1212_a5a580ace24755ea4374dd3d1f5653ab9e753f2f.jpeg

[Slippery_Pete]

​​​​Based on the rhetoric from mates on the 717 the next EBA will be war from the outset. There is a lot of very open agro about the sh!t pay and conditions post the now infamous “strategic imperatives” brow beating and no one gives two sh!ts about the shiny new jet.​​​

Who are they angry at? Themselves?

They're the ones who signed the deal and **** in their own nest.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Who are they angry at? Themselves?

They're the ones who signed the deal and **** in their own nest.

Fair point Pete, however the ones who did agree to it, did so under the threat of job loss. JG apparently confirmed that the 717 crew would be phased out along with the aircraft if they didn’t sign. The aviation market was very different to what it is now and the duress under which the pilots signed has not been forgotten. You can call signing that EA ****ting in one’s nets but in reality it was more like ‘a bird in the hand’ for those guys.

[Ollie Onion]

Fair point Pete, however the ones who did agree to it, did so under the threat of job loss. JG apparently confirmed that the 717 crew would be phased out along with the aircraft if they didn’t sign. The aviation market was very different to what it is now and the duress under which the pilots signed has not been forgotten. You can call signing that EA ****ting in one’s nets but in reality it was more like ‘a bird in the hand’ for those guys.

There in is the problem, Qantas has expertly split and divided all employee groups so that they can threaten individual groups as a negotiating tactic. Into Covid I saw a letter which basically said, sign the LWOP deal by 0900 tomorrow or be made redundant at 0901, that was the consultation.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Could they do the same thing in the near future?
Over-employ into mainline then shrink their fleet, start by a couple of A330's.
Then say, sign here and take LWOP by 0900 and go fly a E190/A220/Dash8 or be made redundant by 0901.
But don't worry, you'll still have a seniority number here..

[Australopithecus]

Could they do the same thing in the near future?
Over-employ into mainline then shrink their fleet, start by a couple of A330's.
Then say, sign here and take LWOP by 0900 and go fly a E190/A220/Dash8 or be made redundant by 0901.
But don't worry, you'll still have a seniority number here..

That's exactly what they will do.

If there’s a way to be a human being, Qantas will do the opposite.

QF has admitted to seeing the A220 as the future of the short haul fleet and will replace 74 737-800s with 20 or 30 A321s. The balance will be A220s…probably 60+. The redundant 737 pilots will have the choice of LWOP and a five year exile to the Qjet award or a few month's pay and a shove out the door.

[Jetsbest]

Redundancies can be very expensive for companies. One cannot be ‘forced’ onto another contract within a corporation unless one asks for or accepts it. Who else, in the current climate, will come in & fly for the ‘low-ball’ offer? I hope I’m not naiive in hoping E190/A220 pilots can make some gains while 737 pilots do too….
I’m trying to be an optimist.🤔☺️

[Icarus2001]

I hope I’m not naiive in hoping E190/A220 pilots can make some gains while 737 pilots do too….

Well the E190 operation is suffering almost as many losses each month as new pilots joining. Their second sim is stuck on a slow boat from China.
The A220 operation also appears to be missing flight crew from their operation.
Whilst Network gets single digit pilot applications each month.
Rex announce routes cut due to a shortage of pilots. Finally Jetstar publically admitted a crew shortage.

​​​​​​​So in that context one would hope for some serious EA - EBA increases.

[dr dre]

QF has admitted to seeing the A220 as the future of the short haul fleet and will replace 74 737-800s with 20 or 30 A321s. The balance will be A220s…probably 60+. The redundant 737 pilots will have the choice of LWOP and a five year exile to the Qjet award or a few month's pay and a shove out the door.

There’s been no “admission” from management about the exact fleet future, the only thing stated is that the 737s will probably be going to the extent of their service life, so over half the fleet will still be flying after 2030.

In reality mainline is recruiting 20 per month and the 737 is about to have about 150 new pilots (1/4 of the fleet) trained onto it over the next 12 months. Not something that happens if redundancy is imminent.

[Lookleft]

Not something that happens if redundancy is imminent.
​​​​​​​Not necessarily. It just means that the training department and HR are operating in their silos and not talking to each other .

[dr dre]

Not necessarily. It just means that the training department and HR are operating in their silos and not talking to each other .

It's HR who are authorising recruitment numbers. They won't be recruiting like mad for the foreseeable future (1000 from 2022-27) and then be planning to make a large number of those redundant.

Truth is the 737s are pretty reliable workhorses, are cheap to run and make money hand over fist. There's no reason to get rid of them. The first one wont be gone until 2025, and then half the fleet will remain post 2030.

[Alfie.floor]

Not necessarily. It just means that the training department and HR are operating in their silos and not talking to each other .
Agreed! Tigerair we’re still training pilots days before they closed up shop.

[SixDemonBag]

Doesn’t it seem convenient that SH has an EBA coming up in the short term?

Company with dress it up as a “have we got a deal for you!…to secure some A220 flying”. In return we want xyz.

I don’t see the company getting the crews needed in this climate. Time for some solidarity.

[ANCDU]

Company with dress it up as a “have we got a deal for you!…to secure some A220 flying”.

I don’t think the A220 flying will be even offered, but there will probably be threats around the A321 as another group entity is already flying a similar type with red tails….oh and don’t forget the pay freeze that we “owe” them 😂. It’s going to be an interesting negotiation as it’s probably the last one involving 737 operations, and the tone of negotiations will definitely give us an idea of the future of mainline short haul.

[43Inches]

Truth is the 737s are pretty reliable workhorses, are cheap to run and make money hand over fist. There's no reason to get rid of them. The first one wont be gone until 2025, and then half the fleet will remain post 2030.

The 737 is cheap until the unskilled labor market gets tight and you have to employ double the workforce to turn a 737 then an A320. Once you get the loading systems in place for the A320/321 etc it will be way cheaper going forward as getting people to work airport ramps is getting harder and more costlier every day. That and the 737 is pretty much at the limits of its design expansion, where the A320 series can continue to squeeze out more seats at better cost factors for a few design cycles to come. Boeing screwed itself when it dropped the 757/767 idea of commonality for the mid range fleets, chasing easy profits on existing 1960s tech with strap on capabilities, rather than integrated.

Or you can do what QF is already doing and just ignore these dinosaurs need more staff to handle them and let baggage delays blow out to hours or don't even bother loading/unloading so the bags end up anywhere.

[Australopithecus]

It's HR who are authorising recruitment numbers. They won't be recruiting like mad for the foreseeable future (1000 from 2022-27) and then be planning to make a large number of those redundant.

Truth is the 737s are pretty reliable workhorses, are cheap to run and make money hand over fist. There's no reason to get rid of them. The first one wont be gone until 2025, and then half the fleet will remain post 2030.

Dr Dre, you are talking the company line again. A fleet captain recently wrote that the first 20 737s will be retired as soon as possible. They have only committed to 20 A321LXR, an aircraft which is still not certified by the way, and is under redesign.

Half of the fleet (36) remaining longer than six more years means what in the context of 20 aircraft replacing 36? And for how long after 2030?

None of the assurances about the 737 are in writing with guarantees (with penalties). They are therefore just so much bull****.

[Australopithecus]

There’s been no “admission” from management about the exact fleet future, the only thing stated is that the 737s will probably be going to the extent of their service life, so over half the fleet will still be flying after 2030.

In reality mainline is recruiting 20 per month and the 737 is about to have about 150 new pilots (1/4 of the fleet) trained onto it over the next 12 months. Not something that happens if redundancy is imminent.

Its exactly the kind of thing you do in the short term. Four years from now a 2023 hire 737 F/O gets offered an eight week payout or a LWOP. The payout is chump change compared to the different awards…they make it back in five months.

The current shorthaul award is, I will remind you, based on the 737-300 which is about like the A-220. Except of course a few years of pay freezes along the way.

[Jack D. Ripper]

There’s been no “admission” from management about the exact fleet future, the only thing stated is that the 737s will probably be going to the extent of their service life, so over half the fleet will still be flying after 2030.

In reality mainline is recruiting 20 per month and the 737 is about to have about 150 new pilots (1/4 of the fleet) trained onto it over the next 12 months. Not something that happens if redundancy is imminent.

How’s the water on the Egyptian river?

Even when faced with clear evidence, AIPA continue to believe in uncle Alan’s assurances……

[pinkpanther1]

So rumour has it the second route for the A220 will be MEL-BNE after MEL-CBR?