QF/Finnair A330 Wetlease

[aseriesofleftturns]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1179x1094/c655c893_1a7f_4362_b8a6_403d596c629e_6a4e067f14c54de8410d0ed 4ff68f96613827341.jpeg
This is sure to be popular...

[brokenagain]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qantas-finnair-a330

So AJs lack of investment in expansion and fleet renewal will be his lasting legacy,

[RENURPP]

although passengers will continuing to see Qantas’ inflight food and drinks, amenities and inflight entertainment.

How sad.

[dragon man]

https://archive.md/2JXkc


What Joyce doesn’t say is that it’s to replace the two 330s that have gone to be converted to freighters and that has lowered the divisor for his own 330 pilots as well as assigning leave to 787 pilots. A total failure of management, but you would not expect anything less.

[TimmyTee]

Wait, who will be flying these leased machines?

[PoppaJo]

Wait, who will be flying these leased machines?
Finn

Definitely a win for passengers. Better hard product and service. Well that’s the sad bit actually.

[Gunner747400]

Finn

Definitely a win for passengers. Better hard product and service. Well that’s the sad bit actually.
Depends if they get the 330's with the AirLounge. I'd say Finnair would be flogging off the ones that haven't been refurb'd yet.

[PoppaJo]

Depends if they get the 330's with the AirLounge. I'd say Finnair would be flogging off the ones that haven't been refurb'd yet.
Certainly is the new birds. Perhaps they might learn a few things, on how product and service is done right. The bit around training Finn staff on ‘Qantas customer service’ standards is highly insulting.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/qantas-finnair-a330

[Ollie Onion]

Who is operating the new BNE-WLG flights announced today in the E190?

[Gunner747400]

Who is operating the new BNE-WLG flights announced today in the E190?
Alliance?

[Ollie Onion]

Yea that’s what I suspected, not sure an aircraft with no IFE is a great choice in the Tasman.

[aussieflyboy]

They'll say Alliance until the 220s are ready.

[dr dre]

Wait, who will be flying these leased machines?

Wet leased crew from Finnair for 2 years.

Then in two years time the lease becomes dry, and QF pilots and cabin crew will operate those extra 2 aircraft.

[KABOY]

Wet leased crew from Finnair for 2 years.

Then in two years time the lease becomes dry, and QF pilots and cabin crew will operate those extra 2 aircraft.

Or will it be a QF crewing company, utilising Australian contractors for 3 years.

Reminds me of the 767 deal a few years ago.

[Capn Bloggs]

Who is operating the new BNE-WLG flights announced today in the E190?
Thread hijack! :=​​​​​​​

[Ollie Onion]

Thread hijack! :=

​​​​​​​It is all related isn’t it? Qantas flying farmed out.

[tossbag]

My god, demand for travel post covid is back stronger than pre covid. I defy any of you to have predicted this, what responsible business does, particularly in the airline industry is wait for the demand to be confirmed by other airline stats, then order a few aircraft that take 5 or 6 years to be delivered. The other airlines will look after your customers til then, no probs. The aircraft will arrive just in time for the next manufactured global crisis. Qantas business planning 101.

[Capn Bloggs]

It is all related isn’t it? Qantas flying farmed out.
190s to NZ have nothing to do with Finnair A330s. Unless you just want a "Qantas" thread.

[Ollie Onion]

Well as a frequent traveller in Finnair their aircraft are more comfortable than the Qantas product so maybe this will drive good change.

[MK 4A Tank]

Just like Air NZ wet leasing an Airbus from Europe - false promises to customers that all aircraft and crew would be fully trained for business!!

[MK 4A Tank]

Singapore Airlines - just declared millions $$$$$$$ profit.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

Well as a frequent traveller in Finnair their aircraft are more comfortable than the Qantas product so maybe this will drive good change.
Or maybe Qantas passengers will vanish into Finnair?

[MK 4A Tank]

Wamos Air 173 operating for Air NZ Auckland to Perth!! (Airbus A330-200) Wet Lease.

[Boe787]

Singapore Airlines after their record profit, gave a bonus to all staff, of around 8 months pay.

[SixDemonBag]

Singapore Airlines after their record profit, gave a bonus to all staff, of around 8 months pay.

and the announcement of Direct entry captains. Hooray!

[Ollie Onion]

Singapore Airlines after their record profit, gave a bonus to all staff, of around 8 months pay.

Carefull, Capn Bloggs will be onto you about thread hijacking,

[dragon man]

I see this as a real slap in the face to Qantas pilots. Still waiting for management to explain how this is anything other than a complete “f*** you” to its loyal pilots. What an absolute blow to the guts…


Why would you expect any different. They talk the talk about loyalty but never walk it.

[PoppaJo]

I see this as a real slap in the face to Qantas pilots. Still waiting for management to explain how this is anything other than a complete “f*** you” to its loyal pilots. What an absolute blow to the guts…

I doubt many care. I mean, it’s only become about because they are so underinvested in the International space. Failures in the fleet planning department and so on, we could talk about that for years.

Qantas International is still vulnerable due to its small size. They should have three times the amount of 787s, they keep talking about these two magic routes to London and New York, two routes, not starting for years. Qatar, Etihad et al have launched how many new routes in the last few months?

United are coming for the Pacific traffic. Not sure what the plan is in that space. Asia is also weak. Pull those 788s away from its low cost sibling who can barely run them to schedule, install a crew rest, and get the place moving again. The next CEO has one heck of a task ahead of her.

[old freightdog]

Just like Air NZ wet leasing an Airbus from Europe - false promises to customers that all aircraft and crew would be fully trained for business!!

Are we comparing Finnair with Hi Fly now? Cheap way out for QF in relation to poor strategy, but the hard & soft product on AY may just be a breath of fresh air for the SLF ....

[gordonfvckingramsay]

This is a definitive admission by QF that they have no strategic plan going forward. Someone suggested in another post that the post COVID growth was impossible to foresee, plenty of other airlines did and QF didn’t.

I hope public get a look at these aircraft and realise what travelling should be like.

[VR-HFX]

Joyce has very deliberately focussed on share price and bonus metrics for the past 10 years. This has meant that international market share and capital investment in a/c and staff has been so low on the priority list as to be a non-sequitur to all the pronouncements from mumble castle. As of December 2022, Joyce had a higher net worth than the company he has plundered. We, as Australian taxpayers and voters, have let this happen.

[Slippery_Pete]

Leprechaun strikes again, to be sure to be sure.

Pity he cancelled 65 x 787 orders to get the share price up for his personal bonus benefits.

What’s your union doing about it?

[dragon man]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x867/f9b0195f_4e81_4291_985f_6cfb5ebcc478_614324c3809ee859e478af2 93943b561e4f3a0e6.jpeg

[gordonfvckingramsay]

What’s your union doing about it?

The unions can’t and won’t act without individuals poking their head above the parapet. They effectively protect the company by acting this way.

[Beer Baron]

The unions can’t and won’t act without individuals poking their head above the parapet. They effectively protect the company by acting this way.
The unions can’t do much outside a bargaining period as you lose the P in PIA. The LH EA still has over a year to run.
Directing members to put their jobs and finances at risk will not win the day.

[tossbag]

Someone suggested in another post that the post COVID growth was impossible to foresee, plenty of other airlines did and QF didn’t.

If you're talking about my post, you need to re-read it and inject the sarcasm that it was written with. The stats/figures are there, after every global shock there has been growth greater than before the shock. I'd say Qantas management are pathetic but they're not really are they? They've all benefitted very well financially thank you very much, at the expense of your fleet. You've got to ask yourself how these arseclowns have hoodwinked their remuneration to greater levels than anywhere else in the world. Compare it to any CEO in the States and compare the fleet growth.

Qantas is a laughing stock, barely an international airline anymore, content to rip domestic customers off rather than grow.

[soseg]

I doubt many care. I mean, it’s only become about because they are so underinvested in the International space. Failures in the fleet planning department and so on, we could talk about that for years.

Qantas International is still vulnerable due to its small size. They should have three times the amount of 787s, they keep talking about these two magic routes to London and New York, two routes, not starting for years. Qatar, Etihad et al have launched how many new routes in the last few months?

United are coming for the Pacific traffic. Not sure what the plan is in that space. Asia is also weak. Pull those 788s away from its low cost sibling who can barely run them to schedule, install a crew rest, and get the place moving again. The next CEO has one heck of a task ahead of her.

Can't install a crew rest in those JQ 788s. The way they've come out of the factory means it cannot be done.

[puff]

Can't install a crew rest in those JQ 788s. The way they've come out of the factory means it cannot be done.

Who needs crew rest - a J class seat for the pilots and some blocked off Y seats for the (kiwi) cabin crew and bobs your uncle !

[Ken Borough]

Can't install a crew rest in those JQ 788s. The way they've come out of the factory means it cannot be done.

Would it be impossible to fit a crew rest that’s similar to that used on the 767s?

[SOPS]

If you're talking about my post, you need to re-read it and inject the sarcasm that it was written with. The stats/figures are there, after every global shock there has been growth greater than before the shock. I'd say Qantas management are pathetic but they're not really are they? They've all benefitted very well financially thank you very much, at the expense of your fleet. You've got to ask yourself how these arseclowns have hoodwinked their remuneration to greater levels than anywhere else in the world. Compare it to any CEO in the States and compare the fleet growth.

Qantas is a laughing stock, barely an international airline anymore, content to rip domestic customers off rather than grow.

I think we are about to see what a cluster Alan has left behind.

[dragon man]

I think we are about to see what a cluster Alan has left behind.


What could be wrong with having 10 x 380s not all flying and the average age 15 years, 25 x 330s not all of which fly internationally the average age 16 years and 14 x 787s average age 5 years. To put icing on the cake your biggest money spinner in which the government has provided cover for you and that’s the pacific is been taken over by Delta, United , American with Air Canada and Hawaiian helping and then you have become irrelevant to Europe with only two flights a day to London and now the Chinese carriers are back , the middle eastern carriers have probably 10 times your weekly flights and then Singair and Cathay as well. Lastly let’s look at Japan which you are desperately trying to wrestle back from ANA and JAL both have more convenient flights with better seats and service. Yes IMO all the chickens are coming home to roost while you walk off into the sunset with the $180 million you have received during your reign.

[Australopithecus]

I hope that the lemmings currently paying $6.94/share for QF are still as keen on 26/08/23. After that there is no value > $3.00* which realistically reflects the market value of the airline as it is currently equipped and crewed.

*a number which was rectally derived. Your actual value may vary.

[krismiler]

Proper crew rest facilities involve a dedicated quiet area with horizontal bunks, I'm not sure that a couple of curtained off seat rows in the passenger cabin meet the requirements though they are better than nothing.

During the low point of COVID, Singapore Airlines was already planning for the recovery even though at the time there was no sign of it on the horizon. Staff were kept current and aircraft ticking over, a strategy was in place to meet demand once it bounced back. As a result they were first out of the starting gate and able to ramp up quickly as travel demand improved.

Even at the worst of they pandemic they were more use to Australians needing to get home than QF were.

[Beer Baron]

Helps when you’re owned by the government, who can give you money or underwrite a capital raising to the tune of $21 Billion AUD.
Sure Qantas got some handouts too but nothing remotely in that league.
Not exactly an even playing field this international aviation game.
$19B Sing Air rescue package (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-airlines-idUSKBN21D3UW)

[Mr_App]

Scoot and Singapore Pilots certainly got looked after salary wise throughout all those gloomy years, wasn't a full wage, but not far off.

[havick]

Helps when you’re owned by the government, who can give you money or underwrite a capital raising to the tune of $21 Billion AUD.
Sure Qantas got some handouts too but nothing remotely in that league.
Not exactly an even playing field this international aviation game.
$19B Sing Air rescue package (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-airlines-idUSKBN21D3UW)

Perhaps because the Singapore government knew the airline wouldn’t piss it against the wall and use the money for the intended reasons.

[Mr_App]

So a QF 737 FO earns more vs a Rex 737 Captain/TRI/TRE.

Good on ya Rex!

[34R]

So a QF 737 FO earns more vs a Rex 737 Captain/TRI/TRE.

Good on ya Rex!

Well, to be fair a QF 380 SO earns more than a QF 737 FO……

[Transition Layer]

Well, to be fair a QF 380 SO earns more than a QF 737 FO……
There’s nothing fair about that though

[cessnapete]

BA has been tempoarily wet leasing 4/6 Finnair A320 for a couple of years now due to lack of capacity and pilots. New B787-10 /A350 and A320/321 NEO are continuing to be delivered.
A good airline and great passenger product.
Quite a shortage of crew beginning to show. BA advertising for Type rated A320 crew. Virgin Atlantic for B787/A330/350, not much success so far. Virgin only after experienced pilots as many routes operated with 2 flight crew. Neither airline employ S/Os as fully trained P2s required for many two pilot routes. Same for BA as all types including A380 operate two pilot routes.
BA pay is based on Company Seniority not by type flown, simplifying double training by not requiring to fly the largest type for top pay.
BA have recruited experienced pilots in the last few years directly as P2 on B777/787/and A380.All pilots furloughed due to Covid related early B747-400 retirement, are now back on flying duties on the various fleet types.

[dragon man]

The last thing is population growth . 700,000 immigrants by the end of next year and probably 2.5 million by 2030 PLUS 2031 Brisbane Olympics and guess who has no plan for growth that we know of between now and then. Betting the house on 2 direct services a day to London and I guess New York using 238 seats while other carriers have approx 350 seats so they need a huge premium to pay for the additional fuel use plus lower capacity and if it doesn’t work you have a white elephant . As aptly described above a cluster f##k of the first order.

[dejapoo]

Well, to be fair a QF 380 SO earns more than a QF 737 FO……

oh God. Here we go. See you in court in 2024. About time you lot got forced to do some work.

[JamieMaree]

Dragon Man, you are so clever. You are right on to the issues and you know all of the answers.
They should put you on the board. You would then be able to demonstrate your ethics by not accepting the obscene bonuses. You would be able to sort them out on the error of their ways.
I look forward to a Qantas which is guided by your wisdom.

[Ledi43]

How long is the agreement for?

[dragon man]

Dragon Man, you are so clever. You are right on to the issues and you know all of the answers.
They should put you on the board. You would then be able to demonstrate your ethics by not accepting the obscene bonuses. You would be able to sort them out on the error of their ways.
I look forward to a Qantas which is guided by your wisdom.


And you show your ignorance by not even knowing that non executive board members do not receive any bonuses let alone obscene ones and are obviously quite comfortable with wet leases from foreign carriers.

[Magoo62]

The last thing is population growth . 700,000 immigrants by the end of next year and probably 2.5 million by 2030 PLUS 2031 Brisbane Olympics and guess who has no plan for growth that we know of between now and then. Betting the house on 2 direct services a day to London and I guess New York using 238 seats while other carriers have approx 350 seats so they need a huge premium to pay for the additional fuel use plus lower capacity and if it doesn’t work you have a white elephant . As aptly described above a cluster f##k of the first order.

Since when did they move the 2032 BNE Olympics to 2031 ??

[JamieMaree]

That removes the ethical decision for you then.

[dragon man]

GOLD MEDAL WINNING ARTICLERear Window https://archive.md/O1Iuz/c7303bb2dd0a7b2cdb147084087488e9dac3a9aa.pngAlan Joyce’s Helsinki final actJoe Aston (https://archive.md/o/O1Iuz/https://www.afr.com/by/joe-aston-hveym)ColumnistMay 22, 2023 – 7.44pm
Save

Share
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce fronted a press conference on Friday to turn the first sod on a new pilot training centre in Sydney’s St Peters opening early next year. While Qantas and Jetstar pilots will be trained there, the centre will be operated by Canadian training company CAE, which will also own the simulators.
It is easily forgotten that construction was underway on Qantas’ new $165 million flight training centre adjacent to its Mascot headquarters after the existing, company-owned centre was compulsorily acquired by the NSW government for the Sydney Gateway road project. https://archive.md/O1Iuz/d274632a1931f1a2292cd1386502f3298c887512.webp Qantas CEO Alan Joyce. There may need to be a new procedure entered in the Qantas emergency management plan entitled “When the CEO denounces the blinding truth as a lie”. Jean Chung In 2020, when COVID hit, Joyce halted construction, wrote off the sunk costs and sold the land for $100 million. Qantas spent many millions relocating its flight sims interstate and since then, the company has been sending its Sydney-based pilots, at great expense, to train in Melbourne.
The timing of Joyce’s pilot training announcement was, in trademark Qantas fashion, too smart by half. It was so nakedly designed to compensate for the anticipated anger of his pilots at Joyce’s other news that day: that Qantas will bolster its international network by wet leasing – which means leasing a plane with a crew attached – two A330 aircraft from Finnair.
Qantas pilots (and cabin crew) are rightly outraged because Qantas has only just retired two of its own A330s from the passenger fleet and handed them to Qantas Freight.
“Those aircraft were domestic aircraft that were perfect for converting into freighters,” Joyce claimed on Friday.
This is yet another extraordinary statement by Joyce, in a budding oeuvre of them.
As he well knows, all Qantas A330s ply a mix of domestic and international routes. In the final month those two Qantas A330s flew as passenger aircraft, they operated to Auckland, Bali, Jakarta and Singapore.
Joyce is attempting to create a completely false distinction between so-called “domestic” A330s he’s erased and the Asian A330 routes he’s now sub-contracting to Finnair. Niko, Mikael and Johannes are preparing for their three-year working holiday in Bangkok while Alan is on Redbubble ordering gigantic empennage magnets printed with the Qantas livery.
The five-year Finnair deal converts to a dry lease – so operated by Qantas crew – for its second half. Either way, Joyce will be long gone.
“This doesn’t lose a single Australian job,” Joyce declared (https://archive.md/o/O1Iuz/https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-to-lift-international-capacity-but-investors-warn-on-profits-20230519-p5d9nc). “They are positive for the creation of jobs and anyone who says anything else is just completely wrong.”
Anyone who says bussing in pilots and flight attendants from offshore will cost Australian jobs is just plain wrong! Woah. There is a lot going on there, there really is. There may need to be a new procedure entered in the Qantas emergency management plan entitled “When the CEO denounces the blinding truth as a lie”.
Who else wants to live in Alan’s world? He should Airbnb rooms in his house of cognitive distortion. In this magical palace, put on your enchanted spectacles and you, too, can inhabit a universe where anyone who says anything else is completely wrong.
“The other thing it does [is] it adds more capacity internationally,” Joyce continued. “We’re getting a lot of queries from customers, ‘When are airfares going to normalise?’, and these are the ways you normalise airfares. You get these aircraft and capacity back in the air so airfares start coming down.”
Here, Joyce is spritzing the weary passenger with a touch of refreshing cabin spray. I’m normalising situations for you. Airfares will come down now. I’m not just doing what a rational businessperson would do, trying to exploit voracious demand, I’m sliding down the optimisation curve, all for you. I’m leaving soon, dear customer, but not until you love me.
The patterns of Joyce’s approval-seeking are so consistent. Here he is, hoping we’ll taste a little bit of mint in our last bite of the **** sandwich, and we’ll all remember him as Joycey the great competition champion, the frequent flyer’s friend. It’s unreal.
Of course, the real issue here is not the number of Australian jobs forgone by dint of two planes crewed by Helsinki hardbodies. The real issue is why Qantas even needs them.
The real issue is Joyce’s premeditated dereliction of widebody fleet renewal. It is his cancellation of 40 firm Boeing 787s and eight A380s, both orders he inherited. It is Joyce’s failure to order any other widebody aircraft until last year, when he ordered 12 A350s that won’t start arriving until FY26, long after his final tranche of bonus shares (https://archive.md/o/O1Iuz/https://www.afr.com/rear-window/alan-joyce-s-24m-golden-parachute-20230329-p5cwgc)have vested.
Joyce and the Qantas board have not placed any order for the replacement of its 26 dog-tired A330 aircraft, the backbone of the Asia network, whose average age is now 16.5 years (six of them have already turned 20). Their failure to do so has created a looming capability gap. Even if Qantas makes an order this year, the first of any replacements will not arrive for several years.
Blind Freddy can see that these decisions by Joyce have cost thousands of Australian jobs and significantly reduced Qantas’ international capacity; and that he made almost all of them well before COVID.
The only real normalisation coming for Qantas is at the AGM in November, when they put Alan in his straitjacket and wheel him out of there. The planes will keep flying, just, but the mad hot takes will never be the same.

[rcoight]

I hope that the lemmings currently paying $6.94/share for QF are still as keen on 26/08/23. After that there is no value > $3.00* which realistically reflects the market value of the airline as it is currently equipped and crewed.

*a number which was rectally derived. Your actual value may vary.

It seems all of your numbers were rectally derived, considering the share price was between $6.43 and $6.52 the day you posted that rubbish.

Feel free to put me in touch with anyone who’s paying $6.94. I might sell a few of the shares I bought for $4 something…

[The Banjo]

Well, to be fair a QF 380 SO earns more than a QF 737 FO……

There is a stark difference between geting paid 'X' salary and actually earning it. That seems to be lost on some on this forum.
Feeding the chooks in crewrest on a 15 hour sector and not sitting in a control seat below FL200 vs doing 4 domestic sectors with 3 aircraft swaps is the difference between getting paid and earning.

[blubak]

GOLD MEDAL WINNING ARTICLERear Window https://archive.md/O1Iuz/c7303bb2dd0a7b2cdb147084087488e9dac3a9aa.pngAlan Joyce’s Helsinki final actJoe Aston (https://archive.md/o/O1Iuz/https://www.afr.com/by/joe-aston-hveym)ColumnistMay 22, 2023 – 7.44pm
Save

Share
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce fronted a press conference on Friday to turn the first sod on a new pilot training centre in Sydney’s St Peters opening early next year. While Qantas and Jetstar pilots will be trained there, the centre will be operated by Canadian training company CAE, which will also own the simulators.
It is easily forgotten that construction was underway on Qantas’ new $165 million flight training centre adjacent to its Mascot headquarters after the existing, company-owned centre was compulsorily acquired by the NSW government for the Sydney Gateway road project. https://archive.md/O1Iuz/d274632a1931f1a2292cd1386502f3298c887512.webp Qantas CEO Alan Joyce. There may need to be a new procedure entered in the Qantas emergency management plan entitled “When the CEO denounces the blinding truth as a lie”. Jean Chung In 2020, when COVID hit, Joyce halted construction, wrote off the sunk costs and sold the land for $100 million. Qantas spent many millions relocating its flight sims interstate and since then, the company has been sending its Sydney-based pilots, at great expense, to train in Melbourne.
The timing of Joyce’s pilot training announcement was, in trademark Qantas fashion, too smart by half. It was so nakedly designed to compensate for the anticipated anger of his pilots at Joyce’s other news that day: that Qantas will bolster its international network by wet leasing – which means leasing a plane with a crew attached – two A330 aircraft from Finnair.
Qantas pilots (and cabin crew) are rightly outraged because Qantas has only just retired two of its own A330s from the passenger fleet and handed them to Qantas Freight.
“Those aircraft were domestic aircraft that were perfect for converting into freighters,” Joyce claimed on Friday.
This is yet another extraordinary statement by Joyce, in a budding oeuvre of them.
As he well knows, all Qantas A330s ply a mix of domestic and international routes. In the final month those two Qantas A330s flew as passenger aircraft, they operated to Auckland, Bali, Jakarta and Singapore.
Joyce is attempting to create a completely false distinction between so-called “domestic” A330s he’s erased and the Asian A330 routes he’s now sub-contracting to Finnair. Niko, Mikael and Johannes are preparing for their three-year working holiday in Bangkok while Alan is on Redbubble ordering gigantic empennage magnets printed with the Qantas livery.
The five-year Finnair deal converts to a dry lease – so operated by Qantas crew – for its second half. Either way, Joyce will be long gone.
“This doesn’t lose a single Australian job,” Joyce declared (https://archive.md/o/O1Iuz/https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/qantas-to-lift-international-capacity-but-investors-warn-on-profits-20230519-p5d9nc). “They are positive for the creation of jobs and anyone who says anything else is just completely wrong.”
Anyone who says bussing in pilots and flight attendants from offshore will cost Australian jobs is just plain wrong! Woah. There is a lot going on there, there really is. There may need to be a new procedure entered in the Qantas emergency management plan entitled “When the CEO denounces the blinding truth as a lie”.
Who else wants to live in Alan’s world? He should Airbnb rooms in his house of cognitive distortion. In this magical palace, put on your enchanted spectacles and you, too, can inhabit a universe where anyone who says anything else is completely wrong.
“The other thing it does [is] it adds more capacity internationally,” Joyce continued. “We’re getting a lot of queries from customers, ‘When are airfares going to normalise?’, and these are the ways you normalise airfares. You get these aircraft and capacity back in the air so airfares start coming down.”
Here, Joyce is spritzing the weary passenger with a touch of refreshing cabin spray. I’m normalising situations for you. Airfares will come down now. I’m not just doing what a rational businessperson would do, trying to exploit voracious demand, I’m sliding down the optimisation curve, all for you. I’m leaving soon, dear customer, but not until you love me.
The patterns of Joyce’s approval-seeking are so consistent. Here he is, hoping we’ll taste a little bit of mint in our last bite of the **** sandwich, and we’ll all remember him as Joycey the great competition champion, the frequent flyer’s friend. It’s unreal.
Of course, the real issue here is not the number of Australian jobs forgone by dint of two planes crewed by Helsinki hardbodies. The real issue is why Qantas even needs them.
The real issue is Joyce’s premeditated dereliction of widebody fleet renewal. It is his cancellation of 40 firm Boeing 787s and eight A380s, both orders he inherited. It is Joyce’s failure to order any other widebody aircraft until last year, when he ordered 12 A350s that won’t start arriving until FY26, long after his final tranche of bonus shares (https://archive.md/o/O1Iuz/https://www.afr.com/rear-window/alan-joyce-s-24m-golden-parachute-20230329-p5cwgc)have vested.
Joyce and the Qantas board have not placed any order for the replacement of its 26 dog-tired A330 aircraft, the backbone of the Asia network, whose average age is now 16.5 years (six of them have already turned 20). Their failure to do so has created a looming capability gap. Even if Qantas makes an order this year, the first of any replacements will not arrive for several years.
Blind Freddy can see that these decisions by Joyce have cost thousands of Australian jobs and significantly reduced Qantas’ international capacity; and that he made almost all of them well before COVID.
The only real normalisation coming for Qantas is at the AGM in November, when they put Alan in his straitjacket and wheel him out of there. The planes will keep flying, just, but the mad hot takes will never be the same.
So according to AJ,the 330-200 is a domestic aircraft!
That said,why is he leasing 2 more 'domestic aircraft' to operate international services.
Oh of course,the 2 he is getting converted to freighters were different to every other 330 200 ever built🙄

[34R]

There is a stark difference between geting paid 'X' salary and actually earning it. That seems to be lost on some on this forum.
Feeding the chooks in crewrest on a 15 hour sector and not sitting in a control seat below FL200 vs doing 4 domestic sectors with 3 aircraft swaps is the difference between getting paid and earning.

I was trying to be ironic…. failed dismally.

As one of those 4 sector worker bees I couldn’t agree more with you.

[SevenTwentySeven]

I was trying to be ironic…. failed dismally.

As one of those 4 sector worker bees I couldn’t agree more with you.

Ever considered S/O's are fairly paid but Captain's and F/O's aren't paid enough???

[34R]

Ever considered S/O's are fairly paid but Captain's and F/O's aren't paid enough???

I have often considered that, and it would far too simplistic to answer NO to both, but if you pressed me for an answer I would say that on a reward for effort scale, some SO’s are hideously overpaid and some Captains and F/O’s are underpaid.

Which SO’s do you consider are fairly paid? If you answer all then it would appear some are more ‘fairly’ paid than others.

The pool of money allocated to Qantas flight ops has long been disproportionately distributed between SH & LH. AIPA have never really been interested in levelling that curve, and as a fair chunk of flight ops are beneficiaries of that distribution I think it would be fair to say that those pilots haven’t been particularly interested either. Having said that, you can’t put a bowl of cream in front of a cat and kick it up the backside every time it takes a lick. There is a system in place that rewards……..some……… and if you are able to take advantage of that then good on you.

[SevenTwentySeven]

I don't consider any S/O's "hideously overpaid". Look at the going rate for Captains and F/O's worldwide. Notice any disparities between their Qantas counterparts?

[MickG0105]

So according to AJ,the 330-200 is a domestic aircraft!
That said,why is he leasing 2 more 'domestic aircraft' to operate international services.
Oh of course,the 2 he is getting converted to freighters were different to every other 330 200 ever built🙄
Aren't the Finnair A330s -300s?

[Fonz121]

Take the combined wages of a four-person crew from any other airline in the world and compare it to that of Qantas’. You’ll find that it is probably quite a lot less at QF.

The SOs aren’t paid enough considering they are required to know how to do the exact same job as the Skipper if the need ever presented itself.

Don’t fall into the trap of diminishing your colleagues worth simply because QF created a new rank to give the illusion that those pilots are worth less just to save a buck.

[Ollie Onion]

Fact of the matter is the SO pay rate is sufficient if they have enough applications to fill the roles.

[neville_nobody]

Fact of the matter is the SO pay rate is sufficient if they have enough applications to fill the roles.

Well that's not a true representation though. Take away the possibility of any promotion and let's see how well it goes then. It's a starting role in a big airline one which probably 95% of applicants are grossly overqualified and over experience for. So much so that people in the past 10 years if the timing is right have just been by-passing SO roles and sent straight to unpopular FO bases.

[ElZilcho]

SO’s at QF Air NZ are B scale FO’s because they can’t (under normal ops) takeoff or land… yet are trained and checked to the same standard as an FO. Unlike other carriers where SO’s are cadets who hold Cruise Relief Type Ratings which aren’t recognised outside their Airline.

We have the same issues at Air NZ where, due to the nature of the job, SO’s can earn more than 320 FO’s while on a lower base, but that should be an argument to increase the SH FO rates not reduce the SO rates. Neither Airline is going to attract new hires with the same experience levels they usually enjoy if the starting position is LH SO earning minimum wage.

[blubak]

Aren't the Finnair A330s -300s?
Yes you are correct

[A320 Flyer]

SO’s at QF (and Air NZ) are B scale FO’s because they can’t (under normal ops) takeoff or land… yet are trained and checked to the same standard as an FO. Unlike other carriers where SO’s are cadets who hold Cruise Relief Type Ratings which aren’t recognised outside their Airline.

We have the same issues at Air NZ where, due to the nature of the job, SO’s can earn more than 320 FO’s while on a lower base, but that should be an argument to increase the SH FO rates not reduce the SO rates. Neither Airline is going to attract new hires with the same experience levels they usually enjoy if the starting position is LH SO earning minimum wage.

They are not trained or checked to the same
standards and they do in fact only
hold cruise relief type ratings….

[Ollie Onion]

SO’s at QF (and Air NZ) are B scale FO’s because they can’t (under normal ops) takeoff or land… yet are trained and checked to the same standard as an FO. Unlike other carriers where SO’s are cadets who hold Cruise Relief Type Ratings which aren’t recognised outside their Airline.

We have the same issues at Air NZ where, due to the nature of the job, SO’s can earn more than 320 FO’s while on a lower base, but that should be an argument to increase the SH FO rates not reduce the SO rates. Neither Airline is going to attract new hires with the same experience levels they usually enjoy if the starting position is LH SO earning minimum wage.

Why do you need 'experience' to be an SO?

[ElZilcho]

Why do you need 'experience' to be an SO?

That’s a question for the Airlines hiring department, they set the minimums.
Few years ago Air NZ proposed an SO Cadetship where Pilots would be hired with 500hrs as an SO on minimum wage (thereabouts) to build hours before going to the regional fleets as an FO. Didn’t get very far.

Bottom line is, both QF and Air NZ vastly overstate their entry requirements for the SO position, but if that’s who they want to hire, the experience will cost them, if it’s needed or not.

[ElZilcho]

They are not trained or checked to the same
standards and they do in fact only
hold cruise relief type ratings….

Interesting, didn’t know CASA had cruise relief ratings. My bad, the only SO I know at QF mainline had me believe it was similar to NZ where all SO’s hold a full type rating. Air NZ SO’s can be checked in the left or right seats including all engine out procedures, LMO etc. Literally the only difference from an FO is they can’t occupy a control seat below FL200 and get paid about 25% less.

Will edit my previous post.

[soseg]

QF SO's are given a CR TR. Can operate out of left or right seat not below 20k.

The last hiring round they upped the minimum requirements to "multi-crew time preferred". I can only guess to try help funnel in the ex cathay etc pilots who were out of work mid covid when EOI opened. All I'll say is I am not aware of any males getting an interview who came from single-pilot operations...

[morno]

I’m aware of several who did with no multi crew background. Next conspiracy?

[Ollie Onion]

That’s a question for the Airlines hiring department, they set the minimums.
Few years ago Air NZ proposed an SO Cadetship where Pilots would be hired with 500hrs as an SO on minimum wage (thereabouts) to build hours before going to the regional fleets as an FO. Didn’t get very far.

Bottom line is, both QF and Air NZ vastly overstate their entry requirements for the SO position, but if that’s who they want to hire, the experience will cost them, if it’s needed or not.

It didn’t get very far as the Unions kicked off, there is no reason why a SO Cadetship wouldn’t work.

[ElZilcho]

It didn’t get very far as the Unions kicked off, there is no reason why a SO Cadetship wouldn’t work.

Obviously the union isn't going to jump at the idea of slashing Pilot salaries. There were other issues than just pay however, but that's for another thread.
My original Point being, if you're hiring experienced Pilots the salary needs to reflect that, even if they're "Only SO's"

[neville_nobody]

My original Point being, if you're hiring experienced Pilots the salary needs to reflect that, even if they're "Only SO's"

Airline accountants don't think that way. They don't have a big picture view of recruiting it's just all about the cheapest labour regardless of anything else. I would suggest it is almost ideological. They don't care about experience or training standards or anything else because it doesn't affect their bonus. Start linking failures in training or extra sim time to the accountants pay and watch what happens to the entry standards.

[soseg]

I’m aware of several who did with no multi crew background. Next conspiracy?

Not conspiracy, just what colleagues and myself noticed anecdotally. If you've seen different then I'm glad to hear it. Disregard what I posted then.

[JPJP]

Take the combined wages of a four-person crew from any other airline in the world and compare it to that of Qantas’. You’ll find that it is probably quite a lot less at QF.

You’re right. Delta, American and United all use Captains and FO’s on four pilot crew. Delta use two of each on a heavy crew. Their combined pay rate would make Joyce’s head pop off.

The SOs aren’t paid enough considering they are required to know how to do the exact same job as the Skipper if the need ever presented itself.

I agree they aren’t paid enough, but a ‘cruise relief type rating’ ? What’s next ? Maybe they’ll invent some sort of dodgy scheme to allow time in the right seat to be counted as command time ? They could call it ICUS and have CASA approve it.

Don’t fall into the trap of diminishing your colleagues worth simply because QF created a new rank to give the illusion that those pilots are worth less just to save a buck.

Too late. Somebody voted in a B scale for their ‘colleagues’, in a tremulous effort to prevent the outsourcing of long haul flying. Ironic (in a hideous way), considering the subject of this thread.