Puma Overhead Weston On The Green 29/08/02

[BLW Skylark 4]

As one of the pilots waiting to take a winch launch yesterday afternoon, anyone admit to knowing anything about the RAF Puma that appeared from the south (M40 J9) heading towards the launch point and the parachute DZ at about 17.00 ish...??

It was nice to see a Puma but I'd rather not see it coming towards me whilst I'm sitting wings level hooked onto a winch wire about to launch and with other gliders in circuit!

I got the impression that maybe he / she just realised where they were as it descended rapidly to about 600 ft, skirted around the back of Weston On The Green and departed to the east.

Curiously enough the u/c was down - I'm presuming that being blessed with foldaway wheel Pumas usually transit with them up?

Oh by the way, if the pilot or any of the crew are reading this, Weston DZ were calling you on 135.65...!!!

If you want to offer me a flight thats fine by me - you can try gliding in return!

'BLW'

[Mmmmnice]

amateurs - hence no joy on the correct fq!

[Seymour Belvoir]

Situationally unaware maybe, amateur definitely not. Now kindly take your head from up your bottom.

[Mmmmnice]

Sorry Seemore - I'd shot all the fish in the barrel, and fancied something that would bite. One can always rely on half past two, or whatever you call yourselves now pip pip

[Detrimento Sumus]

Can't see what all the fuss is about, the puma was probably landing at the old depot on the edge of the ATZ or in the field complex just to the south of it - both of which are in the open FIR so what's your beef o gliding chum? Can't cope with the see and avoid principle for Cat G airspace? optically challenged or just a tw@t?:eek:

[Meurig]

Please don't get the impression that all glider pilots are like this....
If I was in that position, I would have just abandoned the launch.
I could hardly imagine that the puma crew were there deliberately and if it were due to a mistake or poor airmanship none of us are entirely not guilty of the offence.

[Talk Reaction]

Suggest it unlikely that the cab was from thirty to three, perhaps closer to home.

Either way the wonderful explanations by Divergent Phugoid are almost as ridiculous as the original comments. I would suggest that DS is probably closer to the mark remember BLW things often dont appear to be as far away as they are and the wheels suggest a poss landing, (yes they are better off up).

In the event that an over sight meant they recognised Weston late well hey it happens and they took action about it.

Dont flatter yourself that they would have flown in to you, it's rather melodramatic.

As for a flight, helicopters might be flying abominations but at least they have engines! If your machine cant fly on its own then you wouldnt catch me for one in it....

[BLW Skylark 4]

Oh dear I appear to have ruffled some feathers - allow me to comment in return.

Divergent, I take objection to your response for several reasons.

1) Those who know me or have seen my previous posts will realise that whilst I dont fly the queen's aircraft, I am one of the biggest supporters of military aviation you will find. and regularly find myself defending the RAF to various colleagues who do not perhaps share my enthusiasm for all things blue or green My post was not intended to be a criticism of the crew concerned, rather it was in the perhaps somewhat optimistic hope, of getting an explanation.

2) The launch was abandoned - for reasons of self preservation if nothing else, I do not fancy being launched in the path of anything approaching from my nine o clock. The launch was abandoned at the "All clear above & behind bit" as clearly it wasnt! I suggest therefore that you re-read my post as at no point did I say I was launched!

3) On XC flights where necessary I do monitor the relevant airfield ATIS & Tower frequencies, but as you will know provided you sat outside of that airfield's ATZ or MATZ there is no need to do so.

4) I think you must be confusing WOTG with Bicester - we dont have a depot adjacent, its the other side of the M40.

5) The Puma was observed to the south of WOTG heading west before it then turned and flew straight towards an active (& NOTAM'd) glider site. Note I say towards it, it never flew over us as I would suggest the crew suddenly saw where they were and took avoiding action.

6) As I am sure an obvious professional such as yourself would appreciate, WOTG is also a parachute DZ and danger zone (D129) that was active at the time. Granted we do occassionally have Police choppers in the area but they usually stay low level and talk to the DZ controller, who incidentally is RAF and therefore by your definition also a professional! In this case the Puma did not call the DZ (we are in contact with the DZ controller), neither did the Puma respond to their calls as he penetrated the drop zone!

With the greatest respect therefore Divergent, please retract neck!

Meurig & DS,

I hope my response above clarifies matters.

'BLW'

[Skylark4]

This is the original Skylark 4, no connection to BLW Skylark 4 other than we know each other and both fly Skylark 4s out of Weston-on-the-Green.

Calm down everybody. BLW is not trying to insult anyone.
Weston is a Danger area, primarily for Para operations, day or night up to 12,500`. The Puma would appear to have been unsure of his position. If he had been sure, he wouldn`t have been there and/or he would have been on DZ frequency.

Divergent Phugoid.
Be careful about making comments about`glider pilots` as a general group. I could probably find a glider pilot with more hours on your type of aircraft than you have.

Mike W

[MightyGem]

I can recall when attending aircrew selection at Biggin, when asked about previous flying experienced, i recounted my 100hrs of gliding. This raised some sn*iggers from a couple of potential officers who had PPLs. They failed:D

edited to get sn*iggers to work!!!

[SAGA LOUT]

The bloke was training and 'temporarily unsure' as I'm sure we all have been more than once in our careers so.....STFU!!! ;)

[BLW Skylark 4]

SL,

Cheers for the explanation, thats all I was after - no witch hunt or blame apportionment intended.

'BLW'

[BEagle]

In the Oxford AIAA, 'bloke was training and was temporarily unsure of position' is an excuse I would fail a PPL applicant for in his Skill Test. GET PROFESSIONAL!! Such bolleaux is totally unacceptable in this neck of the woods. Of course, in one of those horrid clattering things he could always have stopped to ask some local rustic where he was.......

Skylark4 - I had the great pleasure of saying hello to RAFLO Calgary the other day.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

No excuses for the Puma, but....

Would the glider pilot who savaged the cct at Sywell last Friday evening please consider tuning to the appropriate frequency before entering the ATZ?

I know you have little option when running out of height, but there were 6 ac making like owls as this 'tupperware tornado' turned-up unannounced.

[124.8]

WOW!! A Puma can outdo a fixed wing anytime : Even brakes of to 4000 feet ANYTIME !!! Bring your Tornado, or what do you wanna challenge with?? Put your money where your mouth is, talk is cheap, money buys the whisky...!!! So what is the gaff ?? Pull 16.5 ° collective, guys, and get the hell out......
You want the challenge, I have won MANY cases of bets....
Get your revs up fellows, the moon is shinin`tonight.... :cool: :p

[N R D Kay]

What a corking thread - riveting read. However, Beags has suceeded in flushing me out for the second time in 3 years. Last time, he was squealing about his enforced time in FI. Poster saw you coming and sent the right man for the job.

Beags, I've probably got it wrong and you regularly frequent the Oxford AIAA in your Cherokee, Grob or Kitfox. However, I assumed you just accepted the radar vectors in your massive jet and took the protection of Class D airspace.

Possibly, you know what you're on about and, therefore, it would be inappropriate to suggest that you talking baldocks.

Neil Kay

[Flap62]

'bloke was training and was temporarily unsure of position' is an excuse I would fail a PPL applicant for in his Skill Test. GET PROFESSIONAL!! Such bolleaux is totally unacceptable in this neck of the woods.

One of the more ridiculous comments I have ever read on prune. To equate a stude temporarily losing it a bit, with a lack of professionalism is beyond belief. You'll be a good instructor then !

[Mmmmnice]

DP - well done for coming to the rescue and defending the honour of the Puma force. I am truly sorry if I've genuinely offended someone; it was only meant to be a bit of playful jousting. I'm not sure that keeping it going by referring to a "gash" flight helps matters - we don't want a stampede of gash aviators volunteering - woops there I go again. I will stop there before I get into more trouble!
Once again - I'm most terribly sorry if I've upset any sensitive military aviators bahhhhhhh
PS. I've got an old dictionary if you want it DP

[9.81m/s/s]

Can't understand what all the fuss is about - so the crew were asleep - so what! We all do it - go on admit it - it's perfectly natural! The beautiful clouds, the rhythmic vibration - just like bein back in the womb!!!!!!

[BEagle]

The point I was making, albeit probably not very well, was that for a qualified military pilot to savage such a well-known and hazardous place as D129 is not the trifling 'oh yeah-he was temporarily unsure of his position' matter that some have indicated. Put it this way, had he been a civilian he would very probably have been prosecuted - it's certainly happened before for D129 penetration. Which is why any civilian pilot on a PPL Skill Test about to enter D129 would certainly fail the en-route section of the test.

Sorry - but entering danger areas without clearance is a very serious matter. And no, we don't just accept vectors to keep us out of trouble in a VC10, we make certain we know where we are at all times.

[Tiger_mate]

"in a VC10, we make certain we know where we are at all times"

Not with a 50,000 (OS) map in one hand and the controls in the other whilst looking for a "building" that was never there in the first place you dont. I am assuming that the "offender" is either new 33 Sqn bloke or Puma OCF flying on week 1 maybe 2 of his/her course in unfamiliar countryside in a new (well actually a rather old helicopter with little in the way of useable navaids and only one radio) aeroplane. Beagles intolerance is absolute tosh.

Clearly Beagle needs an invite to occupy the LHS of a Puma and a go at naving at 50`agl to include under wires and a simulated enemy to give him a dose of reality. As anyone can Nav from flight level ridiculous.

Forgotton what it is like to be an FNG have we Beags old chap, and you a QFI as well. Thank god some people allow others to learn, which includes allowing an error to go as far as is safely possible.

T_M

[BEagle]

Done plenty of 50-thouing without a nav or any navaids in my time, thanks. Perhaps not at 50 ft but certainly at 420 KIAS - when poor navigation can make it all go wrong much quicker........

Of course people make mistakes - but by the time they get to an OCU the magnitude of such mistakes should not be such as to cause major intrusion into a well-known Danger Area.

Or maybe it's just that we had rather more training in my day before reaching an OCU. In which case this may well be a system rather than primarily an individual fault?

[Tiger_mate]

"Or maybe it's just that we had rather more training in my day before reaching an OCU. In which case this may well be a system rather than primarily an individual fault?"

This statement has hit the nail well and truly on the head. A massive ammount of flying experience and airmanship has been deleted from the flying course since 1996, which is blatently apparent even before the students get to an OCU. The driving force behind it all.............. money, now there is a surprise.

[Divergent Phugoid!]

Mmmmnice..

You are not millitary then. Gash is refered to in the RAF as something spare, free, not being used, no longer required, not as per the OED.

Hence the phrase 'Any chance on a gash flight on your Puma mate?' Gash here being used to describe a free seat, one not being occupied by another. Not the way the aircraft is opperated.

No offence taken at your comments just hit on a very sensitinve nerve...

Any other Ppruners got any other meanings of the Word Gash??
Oh my god what have I started here!!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Kiting for Boys]

Tried Google and got this....

http://www.gash.co.uk/

[motionlotion]

A widely-used word with several distinct meanings (more often than not of Naval origin):

1. Anything surplus to requirement: "You can have it - it's gash .."

2. Anyone useless: "Don't take him - he's a really gash hand .."

3. Rubbish or refuse: "*D'ye hear there - *ditch no gash .." Note - that a gash bucket is a waste bin, while a gash chute is a pipe or ramp for *ditching gash at sea. Jack also adapts the latter term on occasion for the lower end of the large bowel.

4. "Any gash talent here?" as a question posed when entering a party or dance hall is an enquiry as to whether there are any nice young ladies present who are not inextricably committed to someone else - Ho hum!

;)


ML

[BLW Skylark 4]

Oh gawd, what did I start....???

Guess there's definitely no chance of a ride ("Gash" or otherwise!) in a Puma now.....!!!!

'BLW'

[motionlotion]

That's a BIG 10 4 rubber duck!

[Mmmmnice]

.......and occasionally it's used where I come from to have a pop at Puma pukes!!!!

[Wycombe]

motionlotion....

all this talk of "gash chutes" and we'll be onto "Biffins Bridge" soon (terminology once explained to me by an ex-Matelot mate)

....and then this thread will have to head off to JB :D

[Kiting for Boys]

http://www.bluerobot.fsnet.co.uk/Slangindex.htm

[motionlotion]

Wycombe


................................. probably!

[N R D Kay]

Motionlotion and Wycombe,

Thank you for your explanations of the term Gash. Still a little perplexed since an AAC colleague once told me something about

.....foaming at the gash......

Must be something to do with the inappropriate use of fire extinguishers in a waste-paper basket, I suppose.

Neil Kay