Westland 30: threads merged

[Cyclic Hotline]

From Aviation International News.

In a highly unusual move, the FAA revoked the type certificate for the UK-built Westland 30 helicopters, after Westland helicopter returned the TC for the defunct line to Britain's Civil Aviation Authority.

The CAA susequently asked the FAA to revoke it's TC for the aircraft. There were 9 examples of the this helicopter listed in the US registry, but they had been purchased by Westland and were reportedly in the process of being destroyed at press time.

The Westland 30 gained some limited success in the difficult scheduled helicopter airline sector, but accidents and various mechanical woes soon caused operators to lose confidence in the aircraft.

[Skycop]

I was at a well known helicopter base in the mid eighties when a "Wardrobe" was brought in for the day. They offered free rides to anyone who wanted to fly it. Unfortunately it had a reputation...After no-one accepted our boss tried to order people to go in it.

Me? My old back injury suddenly got worse again and I ran all the way home.

[Retreating Blade Stall]

There are times when people who have no experience of an aircraft either in terms of flying it or its pluses and minuses should not comment on it.
The W30 was limited in range, and due to RR fly by the hour engine costs, eventually too expensive to operate.
However, on the Penzance to Scillies scheduled service it was the aircraft of choice by many passengers, the alternative being the S61.
On North Sea operations,its' good points were its' large square boxlike passenger cabin in which most men could stand up and walk about, and its excellent baggage hold in terms of capacity and shape.
I flew it for several years and enjoyed it very much. There was no doubt that the aircraft was under-developed in terms of auto stabilisation, autopilot, and powerplant.
However, had the money been available to develop the Series 3 version of this aircraft it may well have been very successful. For £90million more we could have had a 150Knot, 550 nm range helicopter which could carry 17 pax and their baggage. The money was not available unfortunately.
Even in its relatively under-developed state, I had now qualms about flying it,and neither did my colleagues as far as I am aware.
RBS

[ShyTorque]

RBS,

Aren't you a little over sensitive?

Which comment about "your" aircraft are you objecting to?

[This message has been edited by ShyTorque (edited 19 August 2000).]

[Retreating Blade Stall]

I am objecting to the implication on one post that people flew in the aircraft with some trepidation due to its "reputation". In fact it was well thought of as a Southern North Sea work horse. It did not have the range to operate on the Northern North Sea.
It had few incidents and no accidents on the British Southern North Sea. It had an accident in India due to incorrect operation of the aircraft, and there were problems in India with the engines due to compressor damage caused by FOD. The Series 3 W30 was to have different engines-the excellent T800.
The only notewothy incident of which I am aware was caused when a wheel fell off whilst taxying at a major airport. Since the same undercarriage design is used on the Islander, that was something that could have happened to a number of aircraft and not just the W30.
My objections are based on the tone and implications of the previous posts.
I was very sad for the UK helicopter aviation industry when the W30 series 3 helicopter was not certificated and entered into service.

[Skycop]

RBS, you are the only one so far to have stated its problem areas / criticised it. What I stated was fact. On that day no-one wished to fly in it. I was one of them.

We knew it was a political move to get some cheap PR for the aircraft due to its lack of sales. We didn't see it having a military role at that time.

Its reputation had come about because of the lack of development of its "autostab, autopilot, powerplant" and the fact that India no longer wished to use it. Just as you have stated.

It did look like a wardrobe, though.

When the EH-I01 visited, we all wanted a go.

Loosen up? :)

------------------
May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..

[Retreating Blade Stall]

Skycop,
The W30 was universally known on the North Sea as "The Shed". I admit to being defensive about the "shed" because I regard its demise as a good British aviation opportunity lost due to lack of finance.
A TSR2 of the rotary world perhaps.

[Skycop]

RBS,

You are, methinks, correct.

Fairey Rotordyne too? Also broken up and few, if any, traces of it left.



------------------
May the Force be with you - and may Gravity treat you gently..

[Retreating Blade Stall]

Skycop
for everyones' information, I repeat the fact that G-BKGD( a W30 affectionately known as
GLADYS)carried many hundreds (maybe a few thousand) pax back and forth to the Scillies for some years without any problems other than minor things that you might expect on any aircraft. Those of us that flew it hold the W30 in some affection. We were all sorry to see GLADYS go dueto lack of further engine availablity.
RBS

[Kings Arms]

Skycop

When I was elsewhere working on a local airfield. A landmark now the rubbish burning pit (and not slagging off here just a statement of fact since I'm too young to ever see one flying and this was how the area ended up)was known on as the Rotordyne site so the name lived on. History lives on. And the old boys remember they days,who knows what would be by now. DOH

[5711N0205W]

Good Aircraft in its time for SNS ops, defects on early models included (G-OGAS) airframe cracks, went back to Westland on a low loader. Either G-AS or G-WY had a stabliser break and drop down. Early GEM100 engines had to be changed frequently. Good for passengers, and v-good for freight.

5711..

[WhoNeedsRunways]

I sense some nostalgia here. for a look at the examples held by the Helicopter Museum in Weston-super-Mud, go here :
http://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/westland.htm

[Retreating Blade Stall]

5711n,
I was the pilot of the W30 that had a stabiliser drop down from its usual position although it did not fall off. I did not know anything about it until I landed at North Denes and the local Ops man told me about it over the radio. If memory serves me correctly, this happened twice to 2 different aircraft. A simple agricultural fix ended all further problems of that kind.
GOGAS did indeed have a titanium strap break. The aircraft was engaged in the building of the Rough field at the time, and we were doing one minute sectors from platform to ship and back with max load in one direction. At the time each pax was deemed to weigh 165lbs. In fact they weighed a lot more than that as it turned out. Anyway, another agricultural fix put that problem right.
RBS

[ZH844]

Anyone have any experience of the Westland 30?

Answers on a postcard...................:D

[Rob_L]

I would be interested to have the opinion of someone who did fly it. I know that when used for offshore work by British Airways on the east coast it was well liked by the rig workers, largely due to internal cabin space. Maintenance seemed to be a problem with the engines being particularly susceptable to FO damage.

The biggest problem seemed to be that Westlands had little comprehension of how to support a civil helicopter operation.

With their attempts to market the EH101 I can only hope they have improoved.

[ppheli]

It was reported at the time that its failure was due to low power and they didn't get the bigger engines (as in the 30-300 model) out early enough. They made 40, and the type certificate is now withdrawn anyway - at Westland's request when someone in the UK reimported a dozen or so from India expecting to be able to "remanufacture" them and get them flying.

[S76Heavy]

didn't it feature in an episode of "silent witness" many moons ago?

[The Nr Fairy]

Yes, a W30 was in an episode. And also a hulk of one was in an episode of Peak Practice, or something similar, doing duty as the downed remains of a Lynx.

And if you want to see some for real, go to the Helicopter Museum in Weston-super-Mare - only decent thing there, and you can leave the other half shopping at Cribbs Causeway on the way down.

[widgeon]

Didn't Omniflight operate some for a while as an airport shuttle ?.

http://www.helispot.com/photos/03299.html

found this.

[ppheli]

In the US, Airspur had three in the LA area (white/orange), Omniflight operated the PanAm one - link as above, and Chicago Airlink had 3 or 4 in these colours
http://www.helispot.com/photos/00752.html

but I don't think they were all delivered. Little odd to me that this photo was taken in NYC and the description says "Pan Am" when it obviously isn't in their colours.

Details on the ones in the museum at Weston-super-mare are near the bottom of this page
http://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/collection/westland.htm
although they don't admit there to the other 4 or 5 they have available for "swaps" which are rotting away in the salty Atlantic air.

[TAFFY]

For my sins, I was the Project pilot for BAH in January 1982. As far as I can remember we had no problems bringing into service although the limited range made it difficult to operate in the northern sector, although in the southern gasfields it was okay, and the cabin was liked by our "customers". I think the real problem with the 30 was that Westlands were falling over themselves to have a viable "presence" in the North Sea as a launch platform for sales overseas, but were giving the aircraft away for next to nothing - ref the Airspur and Indian orders - and when BAH wanted more spares, Westland upped the costs so much that it became completely uneconomic to operate - anyway I left BAH in 1983, taking the money and avoiding Mr Maxwell !!! - so I'm only surmising the final outcome - and yes, I've seen them all gently rotting away in Somerset - very sad.

[Variable Load]

RE the demise of the type. I believe that they were withdrawn from use in the UK not because of Westland, but because Rolls-Royce stopped supporting the engines in the normal way i.e. PBH (power by the hour). The new payment scheme meant that they were no longer a commercially viable option for BIH. The american aircraft were sitting in a hangar in Tucson at this time and I think The Pawan Hans Indian machines had also been grounded by the Indian CAA, their grounding being another story....:eek:


Variable Load

[Coriolis]

Wobbly 30?

Fine machine, tell yer Mam -

what was it Terry Squires said?
"the only machine I've ever flown in where you bite the sandwich and it chews it for you"

Donks not really robust enough to swallow minor dust from tarmac without damage; & used to eat accessory drive pinions for breakfast, pain in the butt to do engine work offshore 'cos the cowlings were removed in slabs & not hinged to the airframe (try taking one off in 30kt wind - what do you do when you're stood 8 feet up on a 6" ledge with a 4' x 2' panel in your hand?)

Lovely low floor, doddle to load, floats a pain to pack, tailplane support struts/bearings weak, T/R balance charts written backwards in one axis, nasty airframe fuel filters, whoopsie with the forward ring frame... good old titanium doublers!

Shame about the 30, much nicer to work on than the S76 (regardless of model)

Even doubled as a RAF Puma for a BBC docudrama about troops in Ireland - never did get the scratches out of the windows after the film crew scrubbed off the emulsion paint with steel wool (sorry KATE)

[Rob_L]

Last saw G-KATE in the BIH hangar in 1989 looked v sad.
Attended a management meeting at the time with the Admiral
at which it was suggested that the 30 could be put back into service!!!!
Mind you at the time BIH were operating their heavy 76A's and wre considering everything including Dauphin and 412.

[Coriolis]

Rob L;

That would be the same Admiral that had the bright idea of putting G-BCEB on to the Penzance/Scillies run during his inspection of same during respray into BIH colours at Beccles?

"would be useful with those extra seats and forward airstair"
"yes, Chief, that's why it's been there for the last 25 years"
"Oh, good show"

Dear old Jock must be rolling....

[Flare Dammit!]

ppheli wrote:

but I don't think they were all delivered. Little odd to me that this photo was taken in NYC and the description says "Pan Am" when it obviously isn't in their colours.

No worries. N112WG was the WG-30 demonstrator that was used for only a short time until Omniflight got the regular bird (N4499N) outfitted and painted. It may have even been the backup a/c but me memory is as foggy as LHR in the morning.

[Grenadetosser]

Regarding the comment on operating costs, we worked out towards the end it was cheaper to undersling the loaded '30 under one of our BV234s and accept the lower operating cost!

And in passing I remember being in the Aberdeen crewroom when we were demo'ing the 30 to local customers. I did point out gently (and sotto voce) to the assembled pilots that my disposable payload to the Magnus in the 234 for the trip I was planning at the same time was higher than the MAUW of the 30...........



;)

[leading edge]

Ah yes, I also remember G KATE, and G OGAS and G BIWY which was nicknamed "Winkee Wanky" by the AFISOs at North Denes (a fine bunch of Bristow guys who used to keep the whole SNS de conflicted in the days when Coltishall was closed and Anglia Radar was but a distant dream)

I digress, I am missing a W30 here, because there was 4 of them I think, was it G BKGD?

It could have been such a good machine with some development, and dynamic improvements.

[Rob_L]

The same admiral indeed!!!!!!!
Also had a conversation with him (one sided, largely due to me being speechless) on the Bell 48!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I remember suggesting that going into big Bells or Dauphins was going to be difficult as Bristow and Bond had a head start.
I suggested selling the existing S76 and buying newer lighter aircraft giving a performance increase while maintaining crew and engineering continuity plus an existing spares holding.
DIdn't get much response to that.

[Coriolis]

BKGD was indeed the 4th (and most reliable) - Gladys by her other name...

Believe she went to PZE to support BCEB with the other 3 acting as Christmas trees and lasted 2 or 3 years, but I was history by then.... :)

[Retreating Blade Stall]

A few weeks ago someone was asking about the Westland 30.
I was unable to reply because I was about to leave for abroad and have only just returned. Did you find out what you wanted or,if not, can I be of assistance? I have a couple of thousand hours or more on this helicopter and I was both a technical pilot and training captain on the type when it was operated by by BAH/BIH.

[ZH844]

Yes, all information received and understood but thanks for the offer!!

What did you think of the helo - could it of been used to replace the Puma/Wessex for the MoD?:p

[Retreating Blade Stall]

Hello,
sorry about the delay in replying. I had no experience of the W.30 in a military role, but I suspect it would not have succeeded in the military role in the form we had it, i.e, short range with F.O.D. sensitive engines. However I believe the Series 3 with the more powerful American Engines(T.800?) with a much greater range, greater M.T.O.W. and payload, 150knot cruise and crash resistance fuselage would have made an excellent machine for both military and civil North Sea operations assuming it lived up to the hype. Unfortunately the lack of about £90 million to develope the machine, and perhaps the military timescale involved, killed it off. It did fly some test flights at Westlands I believe, but I don't know how well it did. If they had had the money and the time to fully develope it then I believe it would have been able to win both military and civil approval and would have sold well. Big 'if' of course.

[Hippolite]

A few years ago, there was a thread on the Westland 30 which has now been closed so can't post these pictures into it. Apparently, someone was planning to import the ex Indian machines to the UK and re commence operations. Seems to me they may have some work to do.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x191/timhcollins/WG303Medium.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x191/timhcollins/WG302Medium.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x191/timhcollins/WG301Medium.jpg

[Ready2Fly]

Sad pictures :sad:

[Jackonicko]

OK, I'll bite. Why were the Indian ones grounded?

[ambidextrous]

You can also find one, from I believe the USA, on the PETANS helideck at their safety & survival centre on the North Side of Norwich Airport.
with fraternal greetings, ambi
PS: The main rotor blades are not quite correct though!:ok:

[Big Guy]

Omniflight operated 3 W30 with the Gem 60 and 3 W30 with the Gem 40 engines for PAN AM and UNITED. The airframe was great for the shuttle operation but with 24 engines for the gem 60's helicopters, we could not keep the helicopter in the air. When we shut the airline down, there was one helicopter still running and 22 engines in the shop. Hard to operate with that kind of reliability.

[PO dust devil]

Personally, I don't like the look of the VIP seating and table at the front of the static display (pic 1). People always blow smoke in one's face when in club configuration. Not that they wouldn't be more comfortable than seating in some modern economy classes.

also fraternally,

DD

[oldbeefer]

Went to see it at Yeovil when it was being considered for the military - Westlands rep seemed generally puzzled when we asked where the hardpoints were, where a hook and winch could be fitted, how could the ground clearance be inproved to allow landings in unprepared sites etc. His answer 'you must remember it's designed for the civil market'. Why wardrobe? Looks good, but when you fill it up it can't be moved.

[heli1]

I believe some of the Pawan Hans machinery did return to the Uk..Danny Wilson at Redhill had a finger in the pie but no support from Westland and Rolls meant CAA not interested and aircraft last heard of in Sussex barn.Also heard Pawan Hans didn't get the promised cheque for the rest.

[Lost Again]

Saw this on a business for sale web site - price seems a bit steep for ex MOD !

14 x Westland 30 helicopters, Ex-MOD, supplied with complete rebuild/ overhaul from air-frame upwards to CAA certified. All engines less than 1000 hours, new gearboxes. Includes £56m of spares and five years rotational, also engineer and pilot training. Are compatible to fly in any conditions. £100m or wet lease arrangements available on a minimum 5 years contract.

richard

[helimarshaller]

price seems a bit steep for ex MOD

They are not ex MOD. The MOD never purchased the WG30. The only organisation who purchased the WG30 in any large number was an Indian Company, and they wer probably purchased with support from the UK Government.

I suggest caution.

[Bravo73]

When they say 'Westland 30', do they mean Lynx?

I thought that the W30 was the disastrous civi version from the '80s. :confused: I can't imagine that there are still 14 around, let alone that anybody would want to pay £100m for them!

[Whirlygig]

Let's see .... I have a spare £7.14m; what helicopter should I buy? W30 or .... tricky decision!! Even if you take out the value of the spares package, they are still coming in at £3.1 million.

Is_this_the_kiddie? (http://www.whl.co.uk/history_w30_series200.cfm)

Cheers

Whirls

[md 600 driver]

the were bought by someone near gatwick ex pawan hands they refused to fly them anymore after a few accidents AFAIK

[rufus.t.firefly]

Crikey looks like the prototype for the AW139 but 30 years earlier !!:O

[Agaricus bisporus]

Lost Again, as the (by definition Civil, never Military) Wobbly 30 has surely been dead and grounded - thank heaven, these last 20 years or so, perhaps you could publish the link to this event, if only to allay the nerves of the more sensitive Rotary brethren here.

Sale sounds highly unlikely to me, use sounds like pie in the sky - Martian sky, that is.

100 Million? You jest. They wouldn't be worth that in Zim Dollars for scrap!

[What Limits]

For God and Allahs sake, 'Run for your lives'

Do not touch anything that says WG13, WG30, Lynx or anything even remotely associated with these types.

I know, I had 1200 hours in them.

[zalt]

But look at the price!:

"Price: $1,234

BRIEF DESCRIPTION
1984- 14 West Land 30 Helicopters available for sale or wet lease (W/O Crew).Contact for details

AD DETAILS
14 x Westland 30 helicopters, Ex-MOD, supplied with complete rebuild/overhaul from air-frame upwards to CAA certified. All engines less than 1000 hours, new gearboxes. Includes list of over 2 million spares and 5 years rotational, also engineer and pilot training. Are compatible to fly in any conditions. OIRO - Sale or wet lease arrangements available. "

Just call the number in Pakistan...

[charliegolf]

Suggestions were invited for the model name for the WG 30 (a possible military buy at the time), preferrably following in the 'w' tradition. Like Wessex, Whirlwind, and even Wapiti!

A grumpy jock pilot on 230 (Puma) Sqn at the time proposed 'Wardrobe'.

When asked why, he said, "Cos when you load the heap of sh!t up, you can't move the fu@@@r"

CG:ok:

[Lost Again]

Link to sale. (http://www.business-sale.com/helicopters-uk-businesses-for-sale-12605720C.html)

The info I posted was just a copy and paste.

If I have been a naughty boy by posting this please remove it - mind you if they sell for 100m because it was seen on Pprune I am sure they would pay a commision - I would !

Regards

Richard

[Shawn Coyle]

The civil Westland 30 type certificate was withdrawn a number of years ago, so even if these were the legitimate ex-Pawan Hans machines, you couldn't fly 'em except on a permit.
Unless something has changed that I don't know about (which is very possible)

[turboshaft]

Not a bad mark-up, given that they were sold as scrap for less than ₤1M back in 2000. :hmm:

Indian Westland 30s sold back to UK for scrap value (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2000/10/19/stories/0119000a.htm)

[Cyclic Hotline]

I think the W stood for Wanky. :8

This helicopter could be the cover picture for the next edition of "The Worlds Worst Aircraft".

If these clapped out old piles of corrosion are worth ₤100M, then those old Wessex that were for sale must be worth at least ₤60M!:ooh:

There are few aviation products in history that have had their Certificate of Airworthiness revoked at the request of the manufacturer. A sad page in the history of helicopters!

[spinwing]

Mmmmmmm .....

The best thing that could happen to these little "Beauties" is that someone drive a D9 Cat thru/over them!

:E:E:E:E

Oh ... if a D9 is not available a D5 would do .......

[peterperfect]

I saw a bunch of them a couple of years back at Juhu Airport Mumbai behind the hangar covered in dust (at Pawar Hans ?).

Most expensive chicken sheds ever produced.

[heli1]

Don't be so cruel...the W30 had an excellent cabin size but Westland tried to do it on the cheap by using the Lynx dynamics .The final W30-300 with an uprated gearbox ,five blade BERP rotor and T700 engines could have been a winner but was too late and by then the company was almost broke .

Incidentally the aircraft in the UK are only part of the ex-Pawan Hans fleet...the story is they renaged on the payments and PH stopped any more being shipped.All the aircraft are really now completely worthless,unless you are looking for Gem engines to power your tractor/speed boat.Even as Lynx dynamic spares they must be beyond redemption.

The real problem is some innocent coming along and thinking there is a bargain to be had ,and the whole saga repeating itself !

[MOSTAFA]

Lick of paint, some fancy new stickers - Future Lynx problem sold to the man in the clown mask and at a bargain price:p

[outhouse]

Without trawling through the rest of the posts and apologies if it’s already been said. The wobbly 30 as I remember from the extremely short exposure at what was then BA Helicopters down south in the depths of cuds vill UK.
Reasonably well accepted by the crews and customer, never supported properly by Rolls Royce, fitted with the Gem 30 with inherent problems and limited replacement engines available. Never really supported by Westland inherent airframe cracking of the main frames, needing manufactures work teams on site to rectify, very limited fuel capacity and grunt. Had a commitment ever been made by Westland to bring in the promise and develop the Wobbly 60 with the added range larger cabin and grunt with the Gem 60 or similar, avionic upgrades and a commitment to support, we may indeed have had an AW 139 type back then.
The Indians never seemed to understand the technicalities of the Acc drive system???

Standing by to be shot down in flames

outhouse:ok:

[ShyTorque]

S'funny how things come around in 7 year cycles...I see we discussed this in August of the year 2000! :ok:

[5711N0205W]

Seeing this again prompted me to scan in some old pics from way back when... :)

G-OGAS on Shuttle from DB100 Crane Barge to New Gas Compression Platform
http://zaphod.www.idnet.com/5/GOGAS.jpg

Some time later, roadside assistance needed
http://zaphod.www.idnet.com/5/RELAY1.jpg

Nope can't fix this at the roadside, where would you like it taken to... YEOVIL? That's a long way... :E
http://zaphod.www.idnet.com/5/RELAY2.jpg

Never mind there'll be another one along in a minute.... :)
http://zaphod.www.idnet.com/5/WG30GD.jpg

G-BKGD

[5711N0205W]

Thought I'd give this a quick bump as it has dropped out of sight to give anyone who remembers the WG30 to indulge in a spot of nostalgia (or hysteria...) with the pics :)

[heli1]

Golf delta is with the Helicopter Museum now.

[diginagain]

In addition to having appeared in episodes of 'Silent Witness' and 'Peak Practise', there are a couple of flying appearances in a drama from 1985 called 'Contact', about a Parachute Regt tour in NI.

Segments of the 30 minute programme are on Youtube. Be warned though, it's only very brief, and the rest of the show makes grim viewing.

Contact, segment 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIT3TJ7QyhQ)

Edited to add link.

[Boslandew]

Some years ago I sat next to a very senior (he knew Sikorsky as 'Igor', I jest not) Westland exec at lunch. I had just done a quick W30 conversion and asked him what he thought of the aircraft. He paused and said quietly, " a mistake" and moved on to more cheerful subjects.

[MightyGem]

There's an extra http: in your link diginagain. This one works:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FIT3TJ7QyhQ


____________________________________________________________ _______

Link fixed

Splot

:ok:

[aseanaero]

Westland 30 Series 100-60

I just discovered this heli existed the other day , otherwise known as the Super Lynx

It looks like it should have been a good large heli

Why did it die a quick death ?

Was there something fundamentally wrong with it ?

Was it a dog or the victim of political circumstance ?

[heli1]

Long story ,some explained in previous threads.
Bottom line..initially done on the cheap around Lynx dynamics and Gem engines with poor range and economics as a result...later developed with the T700 engines and five blade composite rotor but Westland broke and no government funding so died.Prototypes at Helicopter Museum plus a couple of producrtion aircraft if you ever visit UK.

[EESDL]

Pathetic range/performance - not really sure which market they were after - unless they received a huge wedge from the government to produced something to keep folk in't work.
Slab-sided box lend well to holding cargo/troops but huge cross-section must have given little engines a hard time dragging it through the air!

Go on Tarzan - tell all!

[allshookup]

It also appeared in "Morons from outer space"

[allshookup]

The main problem was that it was badly underpowered using RR gem 60 engines which had to be replaced after only a few hours usage. For every 2*C above ISA you had to throw a pax overboard. It was always under rotored and if the series 300 with with T700 engines and 5 bladed rotor had actually been continued it would have been been a 150 kt useful payload machine. Having been involved in trying to sell this aircraft worldwide I can tell you it was not easy!

[Pat Malone]

I co-wrote Alan Bristow's autobiography with him, and he devotes some space to the WG30 in a chapter on his failed attempt to take over Westlands. The takeover foundered when he discovered a £41 million hole in Westlands' accounts - money which had been given by the UK government as launch aid for the WG30 but not declared in the accounts because it had never been decided whether it was a loan or a grant.
Quoting from the book:
"The WG30 was Westland’s attempt to make a civilian helicopter, but it was an utter disaster. It showed how far removed Westland was from the realities of the civil market. I was widely quoted at the time as saying that it was “the wrong helicopter, for the wrong market, at the wrong time,” and that pretty much summed it up. The WG30 was noisy, heavy, complicated and expensive. I had told Basil Blackwell it was a non-starter. The payload was limited, the speed was inferior to the competition, and in hot conditions it could hardly get off the ground. The engines were too maintenance-intensive for a civilian machine, and they could never deliver on time and on price. In 1983 Westland had backed an American company called Airspur to put four WG30s into service, and were rewarded with a lawsuit from injured passengers when a tail rotor failed and one of them crashed in Los Angeles. The FAA grounded the WG30 and Westland lost more than £5 million on the Airspur operation. They managed to persuade British Airways to put two of them on the Scilly Isles run for a while, but it was never a feasible civilian proposition. The government had offered India £65 million in aid on condition the money was used to buy 25 WG30s, but the Indians didn’t seem to want them, even for nothing. Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi had signed up for them but after she’d been assassinated her son Rajiv took over, and he was a pilot who was better able to assess their value. He wanted nothing to do with them.

Westland had 21 WG30s in production and components for another 20 lying around the factory in Yeovil, but no buyers. My first act had I taken over Westland would have been to kill the WG30, probably by the usual expedient of sending it to the RAF at Boscombe Down and having them test it and turn it down. But unknown to anyone outside Westland and the Department of Trade and Industry, Westland had gone to the government in February 1983 seeking a bailout of £41 million. This was described as ‘launch aid’ which would enable them to improve the WG30 to the point where it could find a market. Somehow they persuaded the Industry Secretary Patrick Jenkin to lend them the money."

And a little further on he writes:

"Towards the end of 1985 Westland’s results came out, and they’d lost £100 million. The Sikorsky team insisted that the £41 million ‘launch aid’ for the WG30 be written off, and Leon Brittan finally agreed to do so. Under pressure from Mrs Thatcher, and in return for £65 million in aid money, India finally took 21 of the 25 WG30s they’d signed up for. The deal was done by Don Berrington, a friend of mine at Westlands who gave me a copy of a letter in which the British government agreed to give India an extra £10 million so they could afford spare parts. It must be one of the most expensive face-saving exercises the taxpayer has ever had to fund. The Indians grounded the aircraft soon afterwards, and today, 25 years on, they’re still languishing in hangars in Bombay and Delhi, and India is still looking for a buyer. But the ‘sale’ produced a small wave of optimism that the WG30 had a future, and Mrs Thatcher went full ahead to close the Sikorsky deal. She demanded that all Cabinet ministers sign up to a version of events which in effect painted the Europeans as unreliable and their offer as an insubstantial spoiler. For Michael Heseltine, this meant publicly abrogating tomorrow everything he had said today – an impossible position to be in. On January 9th, 1986, he resigned."

[Tony Mabelis]

To me the WG30 appears to be a Shorts Skyvan with the wing replaced with rotors.

What an ugly aircraft, thank heavens they are designed by computers these days!

The old adage "If it looks right, it probably is" comes to mind!

Tony

[Fareastdriver]

When the British Grande Prix moved to Siverstone there was only one airstrip avalable on the North Side. I came round onto finals and was cleared to continue as No 4. In front of me was a a BA Westland 30 and in front of him was a Hughes 500. The 500 did not understand what bay he was to land at so he stopped at about 100 ft. whilst he found out.
"FOR CHRIST'S SAKE KEEP GOING. DON'T HANG ABOUT THERE."
I think the W30 pilot was worried about whether he could stay in the air behind him.

[Savoia]

In my retrospection of the WG30 I am prepared to be one of the few who believed this project possessed the potential to reinvigorate Westland's balance sheets by serving as a catalyst for an effective civilian revenue stream.

The craft's Achilles Heel, as we know, was its underwhelming performance in practically all areas; range, power, operating cost and doubtless too Westland's technical support. However, the potentially 22 place accommodation, even if reduced, as well as the dimensions and layout of the passenger cabin, gave it, in my view, the potential to succeed - had the aforementioned flaws been avoided/overcome.

I sometimes ask myself what are some of the measures Westland could have taken to avert the project's failure and here's my tuppence worth:

Fuselage: The WG30 employed a composite tailboom (Bravo!) but, had they tried to develop a near all-composite airframe the weight savings could have been significantly advantageous.

Powerplant: Sincerely, I don't know which of the 70's powerplants would have best suited the 30, my stab would be something like the General Electric CT7 or the Turboméca Turmo either of which would have cost less to operate than the Gem and both of which would have yielded greater power.

Running Gear: Westland's already possessed a history of cooperation with Aérospatiale and, though they wanted to undertake this venture independently, they could have collaborated with Aérospat in the design of a more tailored solution to the WG30's dynamic systems providing, in particular, a main transmission with the capacity for at least one additional generation/upgrade of the type.

Had the WG30 proved a success she would, I believe, have been an effective pre-cursor to the AW139 and had successive developments of the type applied effective enhancements with each generation you just might have seen one British marque serving the international market but .. it was not to be!

Regarding Bristow; Alan, for the most part, seems to have been a pragmatist and his comments revealing his intention to 'kill' the WG30 programme would seem to confirm this. One can only speculate as to his intentions with Westlands but my guess is that he was not interested in pioneering some newfangled product (unless the returns were guaranteed) and even less interested in restoring Britain's ailing aviation legacy. More than likely he wanted to streamline the performance of Westland's military contracts and get the firm running (with a healthy buffer) in the black.

For me the WG30 represents a commendable effort on the part of Westland to break into pastures new and, even as a youngster, I was inspired by their willingness to divert from their staple military market. For the many reasons tendered on this thread (and other factors besides) the WG30 failed and which, I feel, was a sad chapter in British rotorcraft history.

Not all is lost however! Westlands are now welded to a company with a compatible history and the AW139, in the minds of a few, flies on as an unintentional tribute to what the WG30 could have been like had things turned-out differently!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JZl3QSrgsbs/TkmARLClEyI/AAAAAAAAEek/aKn32c6xl4s/s576/WG30.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ywllRbw0SZc/TkmANUB2PiI/AAAAAAAAEec/yV-pXdhC3JE/s512/west_30dia.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hBr9joydGCo/TkmAPPzpAnI/AAAAAAAAEeg/Y_zFEH5dIjw/s800/Westland%25252520WG30.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pJdtP7K6z-o/TkmAM6XL_qI/AAAAAAAAEeY/j1ZghRVARQY/roy%252520moxam%252520008.jpg

Various frames of the WG30 testbed, plus cutaway and last but by no means least, a photo autographed by Roy Moxam who flew test on the type

[Pat Malone]

Savoia writes:
"Regarding Bristow; Alan, for the most part, seems to have been a pragmatist and his comments revealing his intention to 'kill' the WG30 programme would seem to confirm this. One can only speculate as to his intentions with Westlands but my guess is that he was not interested in pioneering some newfangled product (unless the returns were guaranteed) and even less interested in restoring Britain's ailing aviation legacy. More than likely he wanted to streamline the performance of Westland's military contracts and get the firm running (with a healthy buffer) in the black."

No, there's no need to speculate. Bristow was entirely open about his intentions. For a generation he had been Westland's biggest civil customer and he was well aware of their shortcomings. He preferred to buy British and had attempted to purchase Sea Kings, but had been forced to opt for S61s because Westland couldn't fill his order. He believed that the future of the company rested with the EH101, which unlike the WG30 could be a genuine contender in the civil market. It was well designed and incorporated revolutionary technology, not least in its rotor head. Above all, Bristow believed Westland should be part of a European helicopter consortium which would include Aerospatiale, Bolkow, Agusta and smaller Spanish and Dutch companies, in order to compete with the Americans. In 1986 he voiced his fear that because of Westland's sclerotic procedures the EH101 would remain a military product and would take decades to bring to market, by which time it would be near-obsolete.

[Heliport]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/395306-alan-bristow-helicopter-pioneer-autobiography.html


Co-written by Pat Malone

[ClutchingAtStraws]

Found this (v. interesting) thread with a little search after driving past three airframes on low loaders, travelling West on the M4 around Reading this evening (1730 hrs or so).

Any ideas on where they were heading....?

[Bcopters500]

I have been doing helicopters for 25 years in the USA and I have to say the Westland TT300 is my Favorite. Remember the Jet Ranger through blades, transmissions, straps, caught fire and everything else and eventually evolved into a safe machine. Every scheduled helicopter operation ended in tears in the USA, for Airline style transport i.e. Chicago, L.A. N.Y. Tours however did well. An aluminum structure, Berp blades, solid G.E. engines, new avionics and a little composites would have made this 150 knot 500 mile the King of the Sea! It would be crashworthy, economical and High performance, Reliable! My hats off to you guys with the vision. The Five Bladed Machine needs to be built! My opinion is that composite helicopters never have happy endings when they/you drag their heels , you usually end up loosing some teeth.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Savoia noted above;

In my retrospection of the WG30 I am prepared to be one of the few who believed this project possessed the potential to reinvigorate Westland's balance sheets by serving as a catalyst for an effective civilian revenue stream.

The craft's Achilles Heel, as we know, was its underwhelming performance in practically all areas; range, power, operating cost and doubtless too Westland's technical support. However, the potentially 22 place accommodation, even if reduced, as well as the dimensions and layout of the passenger cabin, gave it, in my view, the potential to succeed - had the aforementioned flaws been avoided/overcome.

I think that your observations identify precisely why this product failed! It also identifies why Westland failed to garner any portion of the modern commercial marketplace; as they delivered a product that failed to perform in any aspect of value in commercial helicopter operation. Sadly, it can be considered a marker in the decline and ultimate end of this organisations viability to ever play in the sector, at a time when their competitors delivered machines with increasing capability and performance in a market that was enjoying immense global sales.

Poor management and the lack of understanding of the demands and realities of commercial helicopter operations drove their demise in this sector. This was a company that did not evolve with the times, nor develop their internal business strategies, products or product support capabilities. Companies succeed by developing and supporting products their customers want and can market - this one wildly missed the mark as a third rate product, that failed to perform in a single capability.

I don't think they were ever missed.

[vfr440]

Cyclic
Hit the nail on the head there! As a typical experience I can relate as follows.

A long time ago (when I had hair - a VERY long time ago!) I was one of the first LAE's in UK to gain a type rating on the Gazelle (SA341). I thought it was the killer of a machine from a maintenance standpoint - and streets ahead of its contemporaries at the time - FH1100, J/R, H500. Clever bits of (English) design, like the vernier built-in to the blade grip to set a replacement blade; the acres of space on the Xmsn platform; the ease of engine removal and installation; the clever Tq indication system - I could go on.............!

I believe the performance was pretty damned impressive also (even if the blades do go the wrong way round)

But it was the total lack of technical support from Westland that killed its success. Getting spares was always an interesting exercise; as was a civil release for them - very occasional as I recall. One particular event sums up the total mis-appreciation of what the commercial market needed and reasonably could expect of the OEM. Westland published an SB for the addition of a grease nipple for lubrication of the swashplate. No special deal this - carefully drill a hole, tap it, screw in the nipple, job done.

It was necessary to take the assembly to the Weston-Super-Mare plant for this work to be completed; no-one's listening to my LAE's comments and frankly Product Support didn't even seem to know what an LAE was. So off I go with the swashplate in the back of the van. Arrive at Weston and get a bollocking for not presenting the component in its Westland-approved transit box.

I asked what time in the afternoon I could collect the modified unit. "No chance" I was told. "When then?" I asked. (Wait for it) "It'll take about 9 months......" and he was serious :ugh::ugh:

Apparently the 'system' provided for EVERYTHING received to go down the full O/H route, irrespective of what work was needed - hence the timescale. I called my boss; many strenuous conversations ensued i believe. Finally, the following day I was permitted to enter the hallowed portals to inspect and certify (on my licence number) since there was only 1 x LAE at Westland, based in Yeovil, and he was on leave for two weeks. I was also advised that this was a VERY special concession which was unlikely ever to be given again, and I should be contrite and ever so grateful.

I never did find out how much the modification cost, but, cynically, I doubt an invoice was ever raised since there was in all probability, absolutely no mechanism to raise one. Anyway, my boss was ready to raise his own on Westland at 10 x the value of their's for certification...... :ok:

And that, Cylic, is but one insignificant example as to how Westland missed the boat. Well it is from my perspective anyway. - VFR

[tubby linton]

I saw three of the Pawan Hans aircraft on low-loaders on the M25 last night.Does anybody know where they were going?

[Cyclic Hotline]

Was there a dump nearby? :ok:

[tubby linton]

No not that I could see.It was on the western section of the M25 going up towards the M4.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Maybe they are like salmon, returning to their birthplace in Yeovil, to spawn and die? :eek:

[Brilliant Stuff]

Possibly going to Weston Super Mare to the Museum? Don't they collect them for swapping with other museums?

[heli1]

Errrr...no they don't !
Actually the museum sold off three of theirs a month or more ago to a company for conversion to ground trainers,last seen in the Tewkesbury area.Looks like that company is buying more from the part Indian stock brought back by an entrepreneur in Surrey quite a few years ago.They have been stored at Redhill,Biggin and near Sevenoaks ever since.
All are stripped of useful parts.

[Agaricus bisporus]

All are stripped of useful parts.

A Wobbly 30 stripped of useful parts is what then?

A Wobbly 30 without a clock?

[Ian Corrigible]

The curse of the WG30 strikes again...

[Alleged] middleman at the center of AW101 scandal had previously bought-back WG30s from Pawan Hans as goodwill gesture (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pwc-scanned-agusta-books-called-for-probe-into-michel-deal/1086073/)

I/C

[Savoia]

Ah well, what a day, when PWC did search my books!
Did I receive such accusing looks from old and young.
Instead of reward for my Indian charms,
A WG30 about my neck was hung!

[heli1]

Very interesting update as a mystery man in a black Rangerover tried to buy some of the WG30s in the UK around this time. After he failed an ex Westland employee came along on behalf of a Malaysian company to buy them as training machines , including the Pawan Hans aircraft stored in the Redhill/ Biggin Hill area .....they all went in the direction of Tewkesbury in late 2011 and no one has seen them since !
As far as I know the remaining Pawan machines left in India are still sitting at Mumbai after the original deal to sell them all to a man n Surrey fell apart .
Thre may be an innocent explanation of course.

[Dennis Kenyon]

Can I throw in an aside on the WG30s ... and to give a break from the really heavy posts ... I just wonder how many here know the history of the G-KATE registration. In 1981, the Helicopter Hire business at Southend was run by John and Gillian Crewdson who operated the type registered as G-KATE after their new baby daughter. Many years later, I gave the lovely Kate a few initial flying lessons. Kate Crewdson obtained her private licence and went on to qualify as a medical practitioner.

A different aside too ... in 1981, I was working for the Southern Air firm at Shoreham. I picked up the phone one day to be told I was speaking to a headhunter ... a HH who had an open cheque book to recruit a few 'suitable' salesmen and as a one-time successful helicopter sales guy, I was suitable! If interested I was to report to a posh London Hotel. I did and was told to attend the company's Somerset factory for a 'two-day' interview. I checked in locally at the Three Choughs hotel and wearing my best suit I was soon paraded before the interview panel.

Having earlier checked the current WG30 was using the Gem 40 I quickly worked out the relevent range and endurance which on an IFR basis was less than an hour. I raised the issue with the panel but was firmly told the newer Gem 60 would solve any prolems.

I then asked if my job would be to demonstrate the type ... "NO we have our own specialist pilots who will be doing that". OK so I'm the Operational Advice man ... "NO we have a specialist engineering team who will be doing that". I rub my hands. Ah, I see, so I'll be the wheeler-dealer who actually does the deals! ... "NO we have qualified accountants who will be doing that". So what would I do, I ventured. "You attend the exhibitions and entertain potential customers of course". I guess that meant handing out the booze at Farnborough I decided ... but I didn't get offered the job anyway! Did I say the wrong things? Take care all. Dennis K.

[industry insider]

Dennis

As I am sure you know, G-KATE spent many years on lease to BAH in Beccles flying the SNS for Phillips Petroleum among others. "Tango Echo" was a frequent visitor to North Denes in the mid to late 80s.

[Savoia]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/__dRpfF8qlVM/TZtnDVn-2PI/AAAAAAAAClQ/6klgJzQ2FIA/s720/WG30-100%20Plymouth%202%20June%2084%20%28Chris%20England%29.jpg
Helicopter Hire's WG30 G-KATE (so named after John Crewdson's daughter) as seen at Plymouth Airport on 2nd June 1984. John Crewdson's name appearing beneath the forward door (Photo: Chris England)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PxohTTLvYHC3payQn3-9lNi_b45aNZL_151RK6gyTjk=w885-h584-no
British Airways Helicopters WG30-100 as seen at Humberside Airport on 2nd August 1985 (Photo: Derek Heley)

[ericferret]

I remember KATE and I think at least one other W30 parked up in the Beccles hangar mid 1989. Rather sad covered in dust and guano. I dont think they flew again.

[heli1]

Ah G-KATE......last seen tipped on her side on the fire dump at Yeovil.rest in peace.

[heli1]

November 2013 update on W30..............
Well actually no. Two years since those airframes went to Tewkesbury still no one has seen them since. Not on a ship...not on a fire dump,not in a scrap yard, nothing!

[Ian Corrigible]

UK pushed India to buy Westland choppers in '85 (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/UK-pushed-India-to-buy-Westland-choppers-in-85/articleshow/45759891.cms)
The 1985 UK cabinet documents that were declassified last week show how keen the Margaret Thatcher government was to sell Westland W30 helicopters to India and save the aerospace company from certain ruin. It was apparently a case of UK government indirectly funding a private company. The money that India was eventually pressurized into spending on the helicopters was part of the unspent aid fund given by the UK to its former colony.

Discussions in the UK cabinet meetings on April 18 and 25, 1985, show that the Thatcher government was not above diplomatic arm-wrestling on the issue. Right from Thatcher to her ministers, several UK authorities were in touch with their counterparts in India, constantly pushing and even threatening to make the deal happen.

The most interesting document is the minutes of the cabinet meeting on April 25, 1985. It reads: "When the Minister for Overseas Development Mr Raison, had met Mr Gandhi on 24 April...he had also drawn Mr Gandhi's attention to the implications for the United Kingdom's aid programme to India of failure to finalise the contract for the purchase of the Westland helicopters."

The documents show that the United Kingdom's aid budget for India had been "underspent in successive years." The UK cabinet noted that the "unsatisfactory situation would have to be brought to a head, while bearing in mind that the value of United Kingdom exports to India amounted to £800 million annually and that the collapse of the helicopter contract would have grave consequences for Westlands".

Finally, Westland sold 21 helicopters to India in 1987 for £60 million, used mainly to transport personnel and supplies to offshore ONGC rigs. In 2000, The Guardian reported that India had sold the fleet back to Britain for just £900,000 a few years later as the choppers had been grounded for being technically faulty.

I/C

[RVDT]

Born again?

http://www.helis.com/spotters/225driver/aw139_g-chby_bristow.jpg

[tottigol]

The WG-30 was conceived by someone who had no clue about the relationship between installed power and gross weight of an oversized shoebox.
stop dreaming about what it could have been but never was.

[Bcopters500]

If you bonk the ground with this one you are a suger cube and melt!
I prefer the five blade WG30 all metal aircraft. A strong airframe like a Boeing! I get tired of people saying aircraft are made for flying not crashing however , unplanned events happen in the friendly skies and I know its nice to have a strong failsafe structure with bolts and metal. The innocent people deserve it! This is a very particular and special aircraft and I have to defend it. I like! I build aircraft and fly them and they have to be user friendly, economic, and reliable. The British really hit it good with this one and now it will only take a mountain of money to materialize. The 139 is a beauty Queen with its looks and beautiful systems and capabilitys but what about British Pride! Americans are flying BK117C2 in the US ARMY now! "My sunday confessions":rolleyes:

[tottigol]

Can someone please translate the previous post into English?
Thanks.

[Coriolis]

Unlikely - perhaps our friend is still feeling the effects of New Year celebrations... ;)

Nonetheless, since the topic has been bumped up again it's nice to think the AW139 has turned out so well despite (visually anyway) being the granddaughter of the dear old Wobbly. :\

I know she was a relative disaster, but she paid my mortgage for a number of years when the kids were small, and remains the easiest aircraft I've ever turned spanners on (probably just as well given the 24 engine changes we did on G-OGAS in 2000hrs/2 years!!!!) :ok:

[Coriolis]

P.S.
Apologies, Savoia, but for the record the Wobbly had a tin tailboom, not composite (I should know, having spent many hours back there) - the only composite bits I recall were trivia like baggage bay doors and a few cowlings.
Other data appreciated nonetheless :)

[heli1]

Coriolis...you're right but the later W30-300 did introduce a lot more composite construction ,including the tail boom before the prototype died on the vine.
Meanwhile I see the ex-Airspur airframe used for training by Petans in Norwich has got a new colour scheme...and a fake tailboom just in case anyone is wondering.

[Coriolis]

Interesting - thanks.

Hadn't noticed the colour change on the Petans trainer - there's a big blue tower right in my sightline - maybe we're neighbours? :oh:

[pants on fire...]

oversized shoebox.

Shoebox??? NO, I won't have that Fawlty. That was no shoebox, it was far worse, it was a wardrobe... :)

[helihub]

Here's the repaint of the Airspur Westland 30 at Petans, complete with fake reg previously carried on an S76 and referring to "Red Nose Ted" as I recall

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3865/14768791534_7faf47de2c_c.jpg