Map Reading

[Saintsman]

I was watching a pre-smart phone film recently with my 25 year old daughter and the star was given an address to meet up with someone. She asked how on earth he found it without a phone to guide him?

So it made me think that with the reliance on satellite systems for GPS and navigation, is map reading still taught to budding pilots?

If the satellites were taken out in a war footing, will they still be able to navigate (and I suppose that applies to other armed forces, though I believe that astral navigation, is in the Navy)?

[Toadstool]

I was watching a pre-smart phone film recently with my 25 year old daughter and the star was given an address to meet up with someone. She asked how on earth he found it without a phone to guide him?

So it made me think that with the reliance on satellite systems for GPS and navigation, is map reading still taught to budding pilots?

If the satellites were taken out in a war footing, will they still be able to navigate (and I suppose that applies to other armed forces, though I believe that astral navigation, is in the Navy)?

All RAF personnel (and I presume Army and Navy) are taught map reading.

[601]

You don't need to be in the Military for loss of nav signals to cause havoc.
Inmarsat I-4F1 satellite outage disables tractors (https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2023-04-18/inmarsat-i-4f1-satelite-outage-asia-pacific-gps-farms/102234678)

[langleybaston]

All RAF personnel (and I presume Army and Navy) are taught map reading.

Although the army aver that the most terrifying sight for a group of soldiers is an officer approaching with map and compass.

[chevvron]

I was watching a pre-smart phone film recently with my 25 year old daughter and the star was given an address to meet up with someone. She asked how on earth he found it without a phone to guide him?


Whoever heard of a woman who could map read?
(Ducks to avoid incoming):ooh:

[Fitter2]

Chevvron
Whoever heard of a woman who could map read?

In the 'good' old days of gliding competitions where crews chased their pilots round the countryside, my wife became adept at identifying the best route down many a country road. The only other problem to sort out was approaching T junctions. To ensure turning the correct way, 'My left' meant turning in her direction and 'Your left' turning in mine.

[serf]

Chevvron


In the 'good' old days of gliding competitions where crews chased their pilots round the countryside, my wife became adept at identifying the best route down many a country road. The only other problem to sort out was approaching T junctions. To ensure turning the correct way, 'My left' meant turning in her direction and 'Your left' turning in mine.

Did you not have a compass…

[das180]

Whoever heard of a woman who could map read?
(Ducks to avoid incoming):ooh:

There is an alternative perspective:

[das180]

coming shortly

[das180]

(Sorry, needed 8 posts to be allowed to post URLs):

https://www.davesinclair.org/prose/vne

[Krystal n chips]

Sensible lady !..notably with her ending.

Maps, and gliding, well yes they did come in useful....however, it did help when the heroic pilot could be more accurate as to the location..." in a field with tree's at one end and cows in the other " didn't really give an accurate location.

Some crews would look at the task, and then position themselves at say a mid point on a leg....some crews had more money than sense however....most of us just sat, and waited.

[ShyTorque]

I heard a tale of a retrieve crew who drove many miles to fetch a glider only to find on arrival that the trailer contained a three piece suite.

[charliegolf]

I heard a tale of a retrieve crew who drove many miles to fetch a glider only to find on arrival that the trailer contained a three piece suite.

I wore one of those in my wedding.:ok:

CG

[ShyTorque]

Sofa I think it would have suited you, Sir!

[vascodegama]

Whoever heard of a woman who could map read?
(Ducks to avoid incoming):ooh:
In fairness to Mrs vasco she can read a map really well, mind you she can’t park!

[Flyhighfirst]

I was watching a pre-smart phone film recently with my 25 year old daughter and the star was given an address to meet up with someone. She asked how on earth he found it without a phone to guide him?

So it made me think that with the reliance on satellite systems for GPS and navigation, is map reading still taught to budding pilots?

If the satellites were taken out in a war footing, will they still be able to navigate (and I suppose that applies to other armed forces, though I believe that astral navigation, is in the Navy)?

If it’s so bad the satellites were taken out. There would be no civil aviation! So no problem there.

[langleybaston]

There is an alternative perspective:

In RAF MT Despatch at JHQ Rheindahlen there was a very low cross-beam, adorned with a notice:

CHICKEN! .... sorry, I meant DUCK !!

[reefrat]

Back in the day half the bush pilots I flew with would invert the map when heading south, others could read the map properly north up.

[Storm Girl]

If the half who "would invert the map when heading south" reached their destination, I can't see that they were doing too much wrong.

[beardy]

If it’s so bad the satellites were taken out. There would be no civil aviation! So no problem there.
I think that you don't understand the civil commercial environment. Civil traffic would still exist, just not quite as busy.

[[email protected]]

Despite having GPs (without moving map), we used to carry lots of maps on SAR, especially 1:50,000 maps to assist in searches and locating casualties.

What isn't helpful is when, as happened more than once, the only map of the area we were tasked to suddenly disappears out of the co-pilots window!

That was the old-school equivalent of the satellites going down.......always amusing in an area you didn't know well, Eire for instance....

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I was watching a pre-smart phone film recently with my 25 year old daughter and the star was given an address to meet up with someone. She asked how on earth he found it without a phone to guide him?

So it made me think that with the reliance on satellite systems for GPS and navigation, is map reading still taught to budding pilots?

If the satellites were taken out in a war footing, will they still be able to navigate (and I suppose that applies to other armed forces, though I believe that astral navigation, is in the Navy)?
Quite a few other ways to drive a moving map rather than using GPS. Inertial navigation systems have been around *quite* a while now!

[Ascend Charlie]

Quite a few other ways to drive a moving map rather than using GPS. Inertial navigation systems have been around *quite* a while now!

Bit of a difference between a $2000 GPS and a $200,000 inertial system, if you could get one that cheaply.

Yes, reading a map to find your way around is still a requirement for licensing.

[dctyke]

Quite a few other ways to drive a moving map rather than using GPS. Inertial navigation systems have been around *quite* a while now!

Mechanical moving maps, if we ever went a night shift on harriers without at least one having to be replaced it was a bonus!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Bit of a difference between a $2000 GPS and a $200,000 inertial system, if you could get one that cheaply.

Yes, reading a map to find your way around is still a requirement for licensing.
Given the question I think it's fair to assume the OP is talking about military aircraft. If you can point me at a military aircraft in the UK that uses a 2000 dollar GPS as an airframe-fitted navigation system (an iPad EFB doesn't count!) I'd be very impressed....

[Cornish Jack]

Did a trial flight at Boscombe with an experimental moving map device which used inserted sections of OS maps and motor-driven cross wires, on the Lynx. Only the one flight and I don't know what happened to it, Service-wise. The "Dectra" (???) moving map for Decca use was avoided, in favour of Deccometers in the S&R Whirlwinds and, given no 'lane jumps' was exceptionally accurate - used to do self-directed SRAs onto the runway numbers at Valley ... the main runway was directly co-incident with a Decca lane line ! :ok:

[ORAC]

I seem to remember pilots cutting up millions of charts to produce strip maps of their planned route suitably annotated with range and bearings to diversions along the route.

And one GR1 nav, with a former Jag mate as his pilot, who would search his bags before a trip and remove the maps he'd made for himself.....

[netstruggler]

Did a trial flight at Boscombe with an experimental moving map device which used inserted sections of OS maps and motor-driven cross wires, on the Lynx. Only the one flight and I don't know what happened to it, Service-wise. The "Dectra" (???) moving map for Decca use was avoided, in favour of Deccometers in the S&R Whirlwinds and, given no 'lane jumps' was exceptionally accurate - used to do self-directed SRAs onto the runway numbers at Valley ... the main runway was directly co-incident with a Decca lane line ! :ok:

I started my career with Marconi Avionics who were producing moving map displays for the Jaguar based on manipulating spools of 35mm film in front of a projector; and developing something similar for the Tornado.

[Hydromet]

Although the army aver that the most terrifying sight for a group of soldiers is an officer approaching with map and compass.
And of course, all battles are fought on the edge of the map.

[[email protected]]

And of course, all battles are fought on the edge of the map.

And any place you want to go on a LL Nav is on the join of 3 of them!

[treadigraph]

Back in the day half the bush pilots I flew with would invert the map when heading south, others could read the map properly north up.

North up man myself. Recall a walk, friend grabbed the map of me as deliberated at a footpath junction, turned it upside down and confidently led us off down the wrong path... I let him go a mile before pointing out his error.

I heard a tale of a retrieve crew who drove many miles to fetch a glider only to find on arrival that the trailer contained a three piece suite.

Heard that story too, pretty sure it was at the Long Mynd and the saga involved several other happenings that were so contrived it must be true.

[[email protected]]

Did a trial flight at Boscombe with an experimental moving map device which used inserted sections of OS maps and motor-driven cross wires, on the Lynx. Only the one flight and I don't know what happened to it, Service-wise. The "Dectra" (???) moving map for Decca use was avoided, in favour of Deccometers in the S&R Whirlwinds and, given no 'lane jumps' was exceptionally accurate - used to do self-directed SRAs onto the runway numbers at Valley ... the main runway was directly co-incident with a Decca lane line ! :ok:

I did see a Decca moving map fitted once - horrendous. ISTR crossing the Irish Sea from Aldergrove to Valley was a crap area for Decca coverage.

I also remember the tale of a Puma Nav doing a Decca internal SRA, who offset one lane to the right to compensate for the crosswind:)

[Saintsman]

I remember the TANS that was fitted to the RAF SAR Sea Kings. When they set up at Culdrose, if they headed too far west, the system would give strange readings.

It was discovered that they had flown off the edge of the map and reset back to the beginning in the east...

[lightonthewater]

The Royal Navy still teach position fixing by sextant and have paper charts available, in case of electronic jamming of GPS, etc. For the same reason that they still practise using morse signalling lamps, which are also very secure and non-hackable.

[sangiovese.]

Usually with creases of fablon.

[OJ 72]

'Why is it that all battles are fought in the middle of the night, in downpouring rain, and at the corners of four different maps?' - General George S Patton Jr

[ORAC]

And two of them will be based on different geodetic datums and 2 on different MGRS....

Progress.....

[Ninthace]

My first cross country flight used pubs as way points to determine progress along my track, signs of a misspent youth perhaps?

[SLXOwft]

The Royal Navy still teach position fixing by sextant and have paper charts available, in case of electronic jamming of GPS, etc. For the same reason that they still practise using morse signalling lamps, which are also very secure and non-hackable.

That reminds me of the conversation I had with the Navigating Officer of one of the CVS's while standing on the bridge between the electronic kit and the empty wooden chart drawers. "So, n, what happens if it stops working ...?"

I had heard that BRNC had dropped the Morse exam for OsUT?

[Sholayo]

I was watching a pre-smart phone film recently with my 25 year old daughter and the star was given an address to meet up with someone. She asked how on earth he found it without a phone to guide him?

So it made me think that with the reliance on satellite systems for GPS and navigation, is map reading still taught to budding pilots?

If the satellites were taken out in a war footing, will they still be able to navigate (and I suppose that applies to other armed forces, though I believe that astral navigation, is in the Navy)?

So many posts, but no answer given.
Yes, leaving aside georgraphy classess in elementary school (at least here in Poland) and then again in High School as well as - obviously boy scouts, map reading is part of PPL theory course. And most likely for gliding and CPL/ATPL courses.
&

&

[Procrastinus]

"He shewed them a map of the sea,
Without the least vestige of land.
The crew were well pleased with what they could see,
It was a map they could all understand."

The Hunting of the Snark, I believe.

[pasta]

"He shewed them a map of the sea,
Without the least vestige of land.
The crew were well pleased with what they could see,
It was a map they could all understand."
Funnily enough, when I was being taught celestial navigation, we used a completely blank chart and put our own Lat/Long numbers on.

[Imagegear]

On one of my later long range Nav tests out of Cape town the brief was: Climb to cross the mountain ranges at FL90, maintain the altitude across the desert to the target area (crossroads of two dirt strips), descend as low as necessary to show that you have arrived by recording what, if anything is around the crossroads.

Paper charts, Compass, Jeppesen Calculator, and the eyeball, and I fly around the crossroads at low level. Miles and miles of sand and an occasional rock, and just one very small shed-like structure, almost right on the crossroads. Made a note and RTB. Asked if I "found the place", "what did you see?", says I, "a very small shack". He says "good, travelling the roads across the desert, farmers and prospectors need a toilet. It's in the shed". I could not take you there today.

IG

[212man]

On one of my later long range Nav tests out of Cape town the brief was: Climb to cross the mountain ranges at FL90, maintain the altitude across the desert to the target area (crossroads of two dirt strips), descend as low as necessary to show that you have arrived by recording what, if anything is around the crossroads.

Paper charts, Compass, Jeppesen Calculator, and the eyeball, and I fly around the crossroads at low level. Miles and miles of sand and an occasional rock, and just one very small shed-like structure, almost right on the crossroads. Made a note and RTB. Asked if I "found the place", "what did you see?", says I, "a very small shack". He says "good, travelling the roads across the desert, farmers and prospectors need a toilet. It's in the shed". I could not take you there today.

IG

I think in those featureless terrain scenarios the SOP is to deliberately track left or right if the target, so that when you hit the line feature you can turn appropriately and be sure to find it. If you try and aim for the target, chances are you’ll miss and hit the line feature but not be sure which side!

[Imagegear]

I think in those featureless terrain scenarios the SOP is to deliberately track left or right if the target, so that when you hit the line feature you can turn appropriately and be sure to find it. If you try and aim for the target, chances are you’ll miss and hit the line feature but not be sure which side!

Very true, I found that I could intercept the dirt road some 15 miles west of the target and then follow the road until reaching the feature. But even then, up there, one dirt road looks just like another, it just might be 10 miles short or past the dirt road you are looking for, and also tracking East to West. It was more difficult due to the completely feature region you were in.

Very similar conditions in the Libyan desert when flying to the Wadi's in the sixties.

IG

[albatross]

Back in the day half the bush pilots I flew with would invert the map when heading south, others could read the map properly north up.
Place the map/chart/sketch/photo mosaic upon your knee orientated in your direction of travel. Develop the100kt. moving index finger.terrain matches. the map…what is ahead, left, right or behind agrees.






map on knee oriented to your direction. of. travel….develop the. 100Kt moving index finger.

[212man]

map on knee oriented to your direction. of. travel….develop the. 100Kt moving index finger.

But what if you’re doing 420 kts?

[Yellow Sun]

I doubt that there are many around now who could manage a Fix Monitored in Azimuth (FMA) (http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk/navigation.html). It’s described in the last four paragraphs.

YS

[Herod]

used to do self-directed SRAs onto the runway numbers at Valley ... the main runway was directly co-incident with a Decca lane line ! https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif​​​​​

Must be something to do with planning airfields! IIRC, the G30 line went straight down the runway at Odiham

[albatross]

But what if you’re doing 420 kts?

Update you moving finger app.

Most of the bushplanes and helicopters I flew cruised in +-100-120 kt. range.

[WHBM]

Back in the day half the bush pilots I flew with would invert the map when heading south,
My PPL instructor told me to do this. I was astounded ...

[longer ron]

But what if you’re doing 420 kts?

From many flights backseat in Hawk T1's :)

Map marked in time segments along track - 7nm per minute at 420kt (sometimes a segment was just seconds rather than minutes).
I was always impressed with the pilots low level navigation skills with map and stopwatch - too low for any help from Tacan :) but very enjoyable to be riding along at 250' AGL or so.

[anxiao]

Thank you Yellow Sun at post #48. That is a fascinating read on the V bomber Nav.

Several times in the 1960s I visited Lindholme as an ATC cadet and flew air experience on the Handley Page Hastings of RBS which had a nearly complete V Bomber kit installed in it, as several of you will remember. A 15 year old snot nosed kid from Doncaster was not considered an OPSEC concern so we were shown the full system whilst we radar bombed targets around Britain such as, I remember, "The North East Corner of the University Library of Aberystwyth." I was amazed at the target accuracy.

Meanwhile the Captain had a fist full of UK topographics in case the trainees down the back got him lost, which they never did.

In the spirit of the thread, in retirement flying my little Cessna with full Garmin, I still carry charts for the country.

[langleybaston]

'Why is it that all battles are fought in the middle of the night, in downpouring rain, and at the corners of four different maps?' - General George S Patton Jr

And every house move involves buying at least 3 of OS 1/ 50,000 plus a couple of 1/ 25000 for local walks.

[ShyTorque]

I used to fly with an ex RN pilot. I always use the RAF technique of map reading “Track up”, so that what you’re looking at up ahead looks like the map and left is left, right is right. He couldn’t cope with that and had to use “North up”.

I used to change the settings of the moving map to reflect my preference. He didn’t know how to change it back and got quite confused until I showed him how swap it back to North up.

Just a matter of what you’re more used to, I suppose.

[212man]

I used to fly with an ex RN pilot. I always use the RAF technique of map reading “Track up”, so that what you’re looking at up ahead looks like the map and left is left, right is right. He couldn’t cope with that and had to use “North up”.

I used to change the settings of the moving map to reflect my preference. He didn’t know how to change it back and got quite confused until I showed him how swap it back to North up.

Just a matter of what you’re more used to, I suppose.
I find that extraordinary- how can you map read without orienting the map in the direction of travel?

[Ninthace]

Some of us are ambidextrous and can do it either way up. :p

[langleybaston]

I find that extraordinary- how can you map read without orienting the map in the direction of travel?

Depends partly on the map: sometimes it might be useful to know the names of villages.

My wife and I share driving 2 hours on, two off. She navs "direction of travel up", I use north up. Main satnav use is well zoomed in for minor roads and features on track, thus confirming info on 1/50000. For real car-based hard work/ fun I use a 1/25000 and she drives rather rapidly. Snag is I don't get to see much countryside.

[ExAscoteer2]

how can you map read without orienting the map in the direction of travel?

Easy, peasy, lemon squeezy!

[212man]

Easy, peasy, lemon squeezy!
Just don’t mention a far eastern race!

[aerobelly]

Whoever heard of a woman who could map read?
(Ducks to avoid incoming):ooh:

A friend of mine long ago was a co-driver/navigator for the BMC works rally team of the 1960s/early '70s. I would have accepted her advice as a "directional consultant" at any time. She could drive fast and safely too -- amazing! You might also have considered not venturing that opinion in front of Pat Moss, Sir Stirling's sister. She had bigger biceps than he did, and was nearly as fast.

'a

[beardy]

I've heard it said that one of the tasks for the first tourist AEW Shackleton navs was to guide the aircraft to Rockall, at low level all the way without using the radar. With the introduction of satellite mapping and GPS it became evident that the rock had been misplaced on the chart, by the Royal Navy, by 5 miles. How on earth they ever found it remains a mystery.

[longer ron]

Actually I have just remembered a little map story,many years ago my then GF was attempting silver distance (50km) in a glider but landed out at Bicester,she was not allowed to aerotow retrieve out of Bicester (lack of aerotow experience) so I hopped over there with the Tuggie and flew the glider back for her.

The map story is that there was a (Glider) CFI's meeting on at Bicester that day - at least one of the attendees decided to travel there by glider and got lost !! - he did not have a map in the cockpit with him and they were chatting with him on t'radio to try and identify his 'position' - how embarrasing was that - so glad it wasnae me :).

My mistake of the day ? - saying to the tuggie ''I have a slight cold please don't climb too high'' - well we flew the whole way back at 800' AGL (no radio),I love low level in a jet but not in a glider LOL - very uncomfortable :)

[2Planks]

I think I was taught that one should orientate a map to track and a chart should always used north up.

[ShyTorque]

I've heard it said that one of the tasks for the first tourist AEW Shackleton navs was to guide the aircraft to Rockall, at low level all the way without using the radar. With the introduction of satellite mapping and GPS it became evident that the rock had been misplaced on the chart, by the Royal Navy, by 5 miles. How on earth they ever found it remains a mystery.

That's because the Navy know absolutely Rockall....

[ShyTorque]

Depends partly on the map: sometimes it might be useful to know the names of villages.

There are no villages at sea!

[Barksdale Boy]

I doubt that there are many around now who could manage a Fix Monitored in Azimuth (FMA) (http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk/navigation.html). It’s described in the last four paragraphs.

YS
I think some of us still could.

[Ascend Charlie]

Doing Helicopter Crewman training in the late 60s, part of the final test was for the crewy to sit in the jump seat of the UH-1B and mapread on a 1:50 thou map to get us from one spot to a nominated spot. The one we chose was a place called Ant Hill. The crewy did a good job, flew us there and asked for an orbit.

Round we went. "Do another, please." Round we go again. "Another orbit please," he says. We ask him why we are orbiting.
"Because I am looking for an ant hill, and it must be f****g big, cause it's on the map!"

[Krystal n chips]

I heard a tale of a retrieve crew who drove many miles to fetch a glider only to find on arrival that the trailer contained a three piece suite.

Glider trailers can be very versatile including, allegedly, for acts of sexual congress ....as they say in polite circles.

As for maps, there was an aptly name former contributor on here whom I had the misfortune to meet. Our "hero " had visions of becoming a PPL and would tell anybody he encountered he was... a pilot !... as an aside, he managed to book himself onto a flight to GLA...intended destination ?....EDI.

He was firmly of the opinion, that, his former RAF instructors were out of touch and obsessed with maps when he had a handy little device that he simply followed. This may explain his proud boast about infringing the WAD zone one day when crossing Lincoln...VFR..the large ornate structure on the ground being " difficult to miss " you may reasonably think.

I declined his offers to fly with him being "otherwise engaged "...strangely, when such offers were made.

To the best of my knowledge he never fulfilled his ambition....which was a salvation for everybody else who flies.

[Herod]

Many years ago, on the mighty Wessex, the map went out the window. Moral; make sure the window is closed. Luckily a gaggle of three, therefore the immortal phrase; "Number two, you have the lead"

[57mm]

Low level navex in a Hawk through Scotland on a bumpy day. Stude in front loses map down top of the cockpit coaming and starts to panic. I ask him to put the cockpit demist on. As he does so, his map is blown back into his lap, leaving him relieved and impressed!

[Sleeve Wing]

Transitting a Tiger Moth was always fun with a half mil attached to the knee........unless you forgot under the pressures of unpleasant weather.
Somewhere under a hedge near Towcester might still lie a virtually brand new 1/50000 that I was relieved of one day returning to EGLM. Expensive business, open cockpits !

[Cornish Jack]

Mid December 0400 departure from winter trials detachment involved unplanned change from Sea King to Wessex and other crew's prepared route and maps. No time to check before take-off. Long story of enforced low-level (Wx and icing) , too low for Vortac, Low Countries seemingly featureless (apart from a 1064' TV mast 1/4 mile off plotted track !!!) ... sooooo "temporarily uncertain of position" ... Need to pass Schipol for destination, so insist skipper lands at small island sports field on the edge of the Zuiderzee. Confirm position and proceed , landing with fumes left in the tanks and a message to "report to Ops immediately Unplanned landing site was the Dutch Foot and mouth research establishment !! Much unhappiness from UK Min of Ag and Fish and crew will face 4 weeks isolation on UK return. Onward travel, next day complicated by unextinguishable engine fire indication in middle of Hook to Manston leg with precautionary landing on North Foreland and crew and aircraft vigorous hose-down by local Fire Crew !
Several morals there, probably, but "get home-itis" featured strongly (and unfortunately) :sad:

[Bayek Itsarumdu]

And every house move involves buying at least 3 of OS 1/ 50,000 plus a couple of 1/ 25000 for local walks.
I'm very pleased with the custom-made 1:50 000 with my house at the centre, ordered via the Ordnance Survey web site and blu tacked on my home office wall.

[Andy Parker]

Thank you Yellow Sun at post #48. That is a fascinating read on the V bomber Nav.

Several times in the 1960s I visited Lindholme as an ATC cadet and flew air experience on the Handley Page Hastings of RBS which had a nearly complete V Bomber kit installed in it, as several of you will remember. A 15 year old snot nosed kid from Doncaster was not considered an OPSEC concern so we were shown the full system whilst we radar bombed targets around Britain such as, I remember, "The North East Corner of the University Library of Aberystwyth." I was amazed at the target accuracy.

Meanwhile the Captain had a fist full of UK topographics in case the trainees down the back got him lost, which they never did.

In the spirit of the thread, in retirement flying my little Cessna with full Garmin, I still carry charts for the country.

"The North East Corner of the University Library of Aberystwyth."

Secondary Target???

[langleybaston]

I'm very pleased with the custom-made 1:50 000 with my house at the centre, ordered via the Ordnance Survey web site and blu tacked on my home office wall.

Bugger! Now you tell me, Hopefully our move to the sticks 25 years ago was the last.
The garden size is ideal for an old f@rt. ............ small enough that any cries for help are heard, large and complicated enough that I don't need to trail muddy boots through the house to get to the bog. Behind one of the sheds I have a sign: GENTS. Totally hidden from anyone, including herself.

[brakedwell]

That's because the Navy know absolutely Rockall....

When I was on 152 Sqn Pembrokes in Bahrain we used to drop mail to the Royal Navy Frigates in the Gulf. They were never where they thought they were!

[Ninthace]

When I was on 152 Sqn Pembrokes in Bahrain we used to drop mail to the Royal Navy Frigates in the Gulf. They were never where they thought they were!
That is because by the time they have worked out where they are they aren't there any more and have to start working it out all over again. If is a job creation scheme for navigators but don't tell them, they like to feel needed. :p

[pilotmike]

Whoever heard of a woman who could map read?
(Ducks to avoid incoming):ooh:
No moral compass!

However, I'll give you some latitude on this occasion….

[pilotmike]

Despite having GPs
Helimed with doctors on board?

[212man]

That's because the Navy know absolutely Rockall....
reminds me of the (apocryphal?) BA captain announcement “ladies and gentlemen, Those of you on the left hand side might see the island of Rockall, those on the right hand side will see something similar!”

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I'm very pleased with the custom-made 1:50 000 with my house at the centre, ordered via the Ordnance Survey web site and blu tacked on my home office wall.
Watch out if you get a custom 25k. If you live on a boundary between maps you can get one half of the map with 5m contour intervals and the other half with 10m intervals. That'll really drive any navs balmy!

[ShyTorque]

I think in those featureless terrain scenarios the SOP is to deliberately track left or right if the target, so that when you hit the line feature you can turn appropriately and be sure to find it. If you try and aim for the target, chances are you’ll miss and hit the line feature but not be sure which side!


I think it was Sir Francis Chichester who explained how this was a preferred technique of his when sailing across oceans.

[Timelord]

Except that his “Line features” were Sun position lines derived by sextant shots whilst flying with his knees!

[a5in_the_sim]

A map? Wouldn't you have to actually carry one in the flight deck for map reading to be useful?

[Parson]

Although the army aver that the most terrifying sight for a group of soldiers is an officer approaching with map and compass.

Yes and the worrying bit is '.....and compass'. Unless in very low viz (or featureless terrain, which is rare) a navigator worth their salt should be able to set and use a map without a compass. Compass carried of course but only used when absolutely necessary.

[Mickj3]

Yes and the worrying bit is '.....and compass'. Unless in very low viz (or featureless terrain, which is rare) a navigator worth their salt should be able to set and use a map without a compass. Compass carried of course but only used when absolutely necessary.
And at night. And I found a compass pretty usefull on Dartmoor and Otterburn in all weathers.

[Ninthace]

And at night. And I found a compass pretty usefull on Dartmoor and Otterburn in all weathers.
I have not used a compass in anger while hiking in many years. Superseded by a handheld gps in 2003 and latterly a mobile phone with a decent navigation app, the gps being relegated to back up device.

[Hydromet]

Yes and the worrying bit is '.....and compass'. Unless in very low viz (or featureless terrain, which is rare) a navigator worth their salt should be able to set and use a map without a compass. Compass carried of course but only used when absolutely necessary.
The best navigator I ever saw had never been taught to navigate, at least in any conventional way. One of our Bougainvillean assistants offered to navigate us about 10km through thick jungle, pretty flat so no terrain features to work from, to a point on the river. No map or compass with us. He led us to a point about 10 metres from the target.

[zzuf]

Three quarters of a life time ago I found myself crewing a RAAF Dakota on a most circuitous route between Butterworth Malaysia and East Sale Victoria Oz. We departed Davao, Mindanao for Koror, Palau at around 0200 hrs local, a 7 hour overwater flight. Our navigation aids were, ADF, drift sight and Astro.
After takeoff, but before being established on an outbound radial, the runway lights, NDB, and VHF comms were turned off. There was little incentive to head anywhere but out to sea as, Mt Apo, a 10,000 ft hill is less than thirty miles from Davao.
After 7 hours in cloud, with no nav other than DR, our navigator called TOD, and bravely predicted that Koror would be at 12 o’clock, about 30 miles.
We broke cloud and of course it wasn’t. We had no VHF or HF comms with anybody.
The next hour or so was spent applying tropical navigation 101, as we poked around exploring under the largest of the slowly developing early morning Cu until we found Palau.
Didn’t do any map reading for the entire flight.

[lightonthewater]

When you life is at stake, one's faculties are sharpened. Back in the 1980s a very old coastal merchant navy skipper of my acquaintance was known to navigate around the North Sea largely by the shape, direction and frequency of the swell. He once woke from sleep in his cabin, sure that the ship was in the wrong place. He was right, and got to the wheelhouse in time to avoid grounding on a sandbar. The officer of the watch had missed seeing the buoy at which he should have altered course.

[pasta]

When you life is at stake, one's faculties are sharpened. Back in the 1980s a very old coastal merchant navy skipper of my acquaintance was known to navigate around the North Sea largely by the shape, direction and frequency of the swell. He once woke from sleep in his cabin, sure that the ship was in the wrong place. He was right, and got to the wheelhouse in time to avoid grounding on a sandbar. The officer of the watch had missed seeing the buoy at which he should have altered course.
I can't get my head around that at all; having spent far too much of my time on boats, the only waves I see are related to the wind. Nevertheless, the same techniques have been used to navigate parts of the Pacific for time immemorial, and the charts were made from sticks.
As to the map orientation debate: We all have our own preference, but for me it depends on the type of navigation. For precise navigation following features (eg orienteering) map in direction of travel wins every time. When general positional awareness is more important than precise location - sailing, flying (at reasonable speeds, a sensible distance from the ground), hillwalking - it's always North up. My mental map for sailing races (which often use standardised courses oriented to the wind) is Wind up.

[safetypee]

An extract from ‘Wayfinding’ Michael Bond

"Modern humans interact with the world in much the same way that prehistoric humans did. We may travel further and faster, and we have some fabulously clever instruments to help us get around, but the manner in which we use our brains to stay orientated is not so different,
We scout landmarks, attend to our surroundings, memorise vistas, build 'cognitive maps' and generally keep our spatial wits about us, just as the hunter-gatherers of the Pleistocene did. Some of us are a lot better at this than others, and that is the way it has always been.

At least, this was the case until around the year 2000; since then, a great deal has changed. Many of us now delegate all that cognitive heavy lifting to GPS-enabled navigation tools, which guide us where we want to go without us having to attend to anything. Follow the blue dot on your smartphone app or obey your satnav's spoken instructions and you'll arrive at your destination without having troubled the place cells in your hippocampus or the decision-making circuitry of your prefrontal cortex. You won't have to know how you got there or remember anything about the route you took.

For the first time in the history of human evolution, we have stopped using many of the spatial skills that have sustained us for tens of thousands of years."

GPS turns the world into abstract embedded in a digital device. Web searches, instant answers, we exchange these for absolute certainty, we sacrifice our sense of place - replacing cognitive skill with technology - reassign mental resource.

Todays (mapless) need is to pay attention to the surroundings, build a mental map, note the shape character of items, links, sequence of turns; without these we lack the projection aspect of situation awareness, not being able to thinking ahead, or being ready for surprises. … we move through the world unaware, and not be affected by our lack of knowledge. No immediate raw experience of the real, we miss the opportunity to develop rich knowledge an rich remembering.

The issue is not to stop using the technology, its being aware of the decision and the effects it might have.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Try wiping your bum on a GPS.

[lightonthewater]

I can't get my head around that at all; having spent far too much of my time on boats, the only waves I see are related to the wind. Nevertheless, the same techniques have been used to navigate parts of the Pacific for time immemorial, and the charts were made from sticks.
As to the map orientation debate: We all have our own preference, but for me it depends on the type of navigation. For precise navigation following features (eg orienteering) map in direction of travel wins every time. When general positional awareness is more important than precise location - sailing, flying (at reasonable speeds, a sensible distance from the ground), hillwalking - it's always North up. My mental map for sailing races (which often use standardised courses oriented to the wind) is Wind up.
Pasta : That skipper explained that the waves were refracted around shallows, reflected from cliffs and altered by currents. Once you got to know these patterns, you could tell when you had rounded a headland, or a sandbar, or were approaching a coast, even in bad visibility. This man had started work as a boy on the last of the trading Thames sailing barges, and his navigation was instinctive (though he did use charts as well sometimes).

[Hydromet]

It may or may not be true, but I was told that when the Australian Army allowed women to go into field roles, they had to change their ways of teaching navigation, as women navigated differently too men. Someone here may know whether or not that's true.

[NutLoose]

I did see a Decca moving map fitted once - horrendous. ISTR crossing the Irish Sea from Aldergrove to Valley was a crap area for Decca coverage.

I also remember the tale of a Puma Nav doing a Decca internal SRA, who offset one lane to the right to compensate for the crosswind:)

;)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195671330991?hash=item2d8eeb90af:g:L5YAAOSwkWdkGbSd&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4O1iN%2FjO1DTNrenEIZWBxWvVLF%2Fbl9plnz% 2F8g%2B7kOxMXZ13f3m6wMiBX4DE8IZVwn0LZFtJ1F6YGbJ8o2O%2FwOCrxG fggn9p8lYf8v7kY9HhoB%2FLnI3Jh2tN5Pm8qAvfg0D433KhieY9GYXXR4pd uoUndc%2ByujcWCDRZQ3gbZbVJrdA0cnDBjLh2Hy0FrF1Uoi9dbT78Ovoa%2 B4i7LusMGyZ27DbI79RCaHuIjdjGeT6F2vJdkso1t7omR%2BRJb%2BrrMYK2 khQ%2BQkLWn3ze0JXBdYhsd%2FFFRHWw9IN7QO0xagRyb%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-qNteH3YQ

[brakedwell]

We had Decca in the Argosy - Didn't think much of it personally.

[pasta]

;)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195671330991?hash=item2d8eeb90af:g:L5YAAOSwkWdkGbSd&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4O1iN%2FjO1DTNrenEIZWBxWvVLF%2Fbl9plnz% 2F8g%2B7kOxMXZ13f3m6wMiBX4DE8IZVwn0LZFtJ1F6YGbJ8o2O%2FwOCrxG fggn9p8lYf8v7kY9HhoB%2FLnI3Jh2tN5Pm8qAvfg0D433KhieY9GYXXR4pd uoUndc%2ByujcWCDRZQ3gbZbVJrdA0cnDBjLh2Hy0FrF1Uoi9dbT78Ovoa%2 B4i7LusMGyZ27DbI79RCaHuIjdjGeT6F2vJdkso1t7omR%2BRJb%2BrrMYK2 khQ%2BQkLWn3ze0JXBdYhsd%2FFFRHWw9IN7QO0xagRyb%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-qNteH3YQ
"Sold as untested"

[Discorde]

Tales of now-defunct nav systems and techniques:

The HS121 Trident (British B727 lookalike for those unfamiliar with this beast) had a moving map display driven by Doppler drift and groundspeed. It never worked.

On some of BEA's post-war fleets aircrews included a Radio Operator. The IR renewal included a VDF let-down (civil version of the RAF QGH). One story has it that on a practice VDF the R/O would look out of the window to determine geographic position, work out the equivalent bearing and pass it to the pilots as if it had been transmitted by ATC.

One of the navcom manufacturers (Narco?) in the early 1970s produced a 'course line computer' system based on VOR/DME. You could generate a 'ghost' VOR/DME by displacing the actual beacon along a specified bearing and distance. As an example you could move Daventry VOR/DME 22 nm and 207 degrees (magnetic, variation 7W) to position it over Oxford Kidlington.

Also in the 70s someone contrived a map system to work out 2-position line fixes using bearings from two VORs read along axes at right angles - a good idea except that the maps were highly distorted.

Basic air or surface nav:

Daytime directional orientation without GPS or compass: sun position and a reasonable idea of local time;

Or: if sun obscured, wind direction (assuming it hasn't changed since departure)

Nighttime ditto: Polaris

Map-reading: many GA pilots who use GPS also print out the intended route map (using SkyDemon or similar). So the magenta line (dread phrase) is on a piece of paper for when the electronics go AWOL.

[SASless]

Decca.....the style with the scrolling moving map and stylus thingy......if you had arms like an Octopus and there was no static electricity in the same hemisphere....and the ambient Temp where the scroll map was located was near freezing....it was just about useless....but with any of the other factors present....utterly useless. if single pilot and you had to make a chart change or worse yet.....a Key Change which required a system reset it could get interesting. My usual luck in the Summer was usually the weather was not too bad but upon getting it done....the sticky tape holding the scroll map together would come unstuck and one end of the scroll made like a runaway old fashioned roll up window shade leaving the map unusable .

I take my Hat off to anyone that could, while single pilot at night in a Wessex/S-58T/Whirlwind, do the snake charming necessary to change from an enroute chart to the Decca Approach to Sumburgh in the Shetlands, while flying with your knees and dealing with changing the chart, key, and decometers in under twenty attempts.

I found a standard paper Decca Chart and using the Decometers alone worked a treat and proved to be very accurate.....nothing like flying a "Decca Arc" approach combined with a Rig NDB and cross checking it all with the onboard Radar.

I also found the last CONSOL station in Norway to be useful in departing the Ekofisk headed back to Teeside.

[NutLoose]

I stripped a complete Decca system out of a Piper Aztec many many moons ago and the weight of the cabling alone weighed a ton weight.

[charliegolf]

I never saw the Puma/TANS moving map doodah in use outside the OCU ground school. (Do I recall a stowage for it in the cabin?)

CG

[India Four Two]

It may or may not be true, but I was told that when the Australian Army allowed women to go into field roles, they had to change their ways of teaching navigation, as women navigated differently too men. Someone here may know whether or not that's true.

This paper is relevant:
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/

Navigation studies in both humans and rats show that females of both species tend to rely on landmarks, while males more typically rely on “dead reckoning”: calculating one’s position by estimating the direction and distance traveled rather than using landmarks.

I remember an experiment at my university where a Psychology lecturer asked his students to draw a map of how to get from one part of the campus to another. The results supported the quote above. Male student's maps were spatially accurate but lacking in detail, but the female student's maps were the opposite - lots of detail and information to help with enroute navigation but poor spatial accuracy.

[NutLoose]

I never saw the Puma/TANS moving map doodah in use outside the OCU ground school. (Do I recall a stowage for it in the cabin?)

CG


I saw it in use on the OCU, a Sgt loady instructor, took it flying, I cannot remember his name., yes there was a stowage, i think it was the back wall of the cockpit, back of the central instrument panel or in the tunnel?

[pasta]

I remember an experiment at my university where a Psychology lecturer asked his students to draw a map of how to get from one part of the campus to another. The results supported the quote above. Male student's maps were spatially accurate but lacking in detail, but the female student's maps were the opposite - lots of detail and information to help with enroute navigation but poor spatial accuracy.
It kind-of makes sense if you consider that we evolved as hunter-gatherers. Following gender norms, women would have been foraging in familiar areas, whereas men would have been pursuing animals wherever they chose to go and would then need to find their way home.

[MPN11]

Car navigation. My wife uses place/street names. I use landmarks/spatial awareness.

[NutLoose]

The RAF are renowned for their navigation skills and map reading, often using poor or inadequate maps bereft of any detail, have you seen some of the Hotel direction maps in their brochures these days, shocking, I sometimes wondered how we ever found the Hotels...

[Hydromet]

Navigation studies in both humans and rats show that females of both species tend to rely on landmarks, while males more typically rely on “dead reckoning”: calculating one’s position by estimating the direction and distance traveled rather than using landmarks.

That ringas a bell with what I was told. Back when I was very new in my career, my immediate boss was suddenly tasked to go to a place we had not been to before, in the middle of the bush. He met up with a colleague who had been there often, on a weekend at a club. Over a large number of beers, he was given distance and direction instructions (e.g. take left fork in road for 2.3 miles...)that were spot on.

[ORAC]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13423-019-01659-w

Gender differences in spatial navigation: Characterizing wayfinding behaviors

[beardy]

Whilst there is a statistical gender difference in the way that orientation and navigation is achieved it is not an absolute difference. Men still use spatial orientation and women still use features, just not as much as the inverse. Some of each sex are really bad navigators, but it's a skill that can be taught.

[Yellow Sun]

The RAF are renowned for their navigation skills and map reading, often using poor or inadequate maps bereft of any detail, have you seen some of the Hotel direction maps in their brochures these days, shocking, I sometimes wondered how we ever found the Hotels...

A dwindling band will recall a form used by the V-Force, F2130 Nav Radar Bombing Report. I once read one that included in the Remarks section:

”As latest available mapping was dated 1945, suggest score be adjusted by 25 years”

Seemed reasonable.

YS

[SASless]

In my early days on the water as a mate on a 56 foot Snapper Boat (bottom fishing by hook and line) we navigated on transits by means of a depth finder and hand held transistor radio using standard commercial AM broadcast stations.

If we were trying to be "precise" we might include the boat's heading using the Compass.

Later we moved up to using LORAN with a receiver that used an oscilloscope display to determine what lines we were on (similar to DECCA) to return to good fishing spots.

Now today...the guys use GPS and all of the fun is taken out of the exercise.

Even now we use landmarks or Stars when running at night even with the GPS.

The GPS gives you the desired track to the next turn....and the landmark gives you a visual steering point for holding a steady heading.

From my Army days....it is possible to follow a fellow Soldiers Mess Kit.

Pouring rain at night compounded by the need for Light Discipline meant getting under another guys Poncho to allow reading a map by flashlight and using a compass to orient the map.....in close proximity to his Back Pack and assorted gear which attracted the Compass.....can you say the word "Lost"?

[ShyTorque]

I normally have excellent spatial awareness. One notable exception was after a formation flight to Denmark got diverted due to very poor weather. We arrived in the dark and our aircraft was the last to be refuelled. The rest of the detachment had already gone by taxi from the airport to a hotel which had been organised by the handling agent. Our taxi was waiting and had been briefed where to take us (we knew not which hotel) and we were whisked away in short order. As we arrived at said hotel, we were met in reception and given room keys by the flight commander who was already in civvies. He told us to straight up to get changed and out again because food had been organised at a local hostelry who had agreed to stay open late for us. A minibus was waiting outside. We got changed in a couple of minutes, went down to the hotel lobby and got straight on board and away, ten minutes drive. After the meal someone suggested we went to a pub somewhere else in town. Another bus took us there. As we knew we wouldn’t be flying the following day a few drinks were consumed. The flight commander then suddenly said that the minibus was outside to take us back to the hotel. I needed a last minute trip to the gents and asked a mate to hold the bus for two minutes. When I came out, the minibus had gone and I was alone! It was then I realised I’d not actually noticed the name of the hotel. No problem, thought I, I have the room key fob which would have the name of hotel. It didn’t!

I looked left and right and decided to go right. I walked, then jogged for what was probably about four miles without recognising the hotel then suddenly realised I’d reached the edge of town and had no option but to retrace my steps. It took me forty five minutes to get back to the pub. I then decided to go past it and try again. I crossed the road 100 metres further on and noticed I was outside the correct hotel…

[MPN11]

That sounds like the famous Hotel Ingang on Einbahnstrasse in Ausfart. Been there!

[albatross]

That sounds like the famous Hotel Ingang on Einbahnstrasse in Ausfart. Been there!

Rule # 1 in Daze of Yore
First thing you did upon entry to your accommodation: Always grab a book of hotel matches and keep them with you. They all have the name, address and phone number on them. If lost and/or disorientated show them to the taxi driver, helpful doorman or annoyed police officer. Especially if there is a language problem.
Nowadays they would probably look at you strangely at a hotel desk if you asked for a book of matches.

[BEagle]

A solo stude on my JP course dropped his map during a medium level nav trip, which disappeared under his bang seat, much to his consternation.

After some minutes of bad language he came up with a cunning plan. Turn upside down, push and catch the map as it floats up from wherever it had lodged, then carry on with the trip....

Grunt, shove, snatch, roll - all worked just fine. Until he looked at the g-meter! Ah - bug.ger!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I'll probably be accused by some random ex-route-Herc fella of not telling the truth (again), but our basic rotary course on Whirlwinds at Shawbury learned the true value of alert crewmen when one of the 2 MACR crewman instructors happened to look up during an early LL Nav trip being flown by one of the fellas 2 courses ahead of me. This crewman instinctively reached out and grabbed the 1/4 mill chart flying at 80-odd knots that had just made its way out of the open cockpit window then calmly passed it back up between the pilot's legs, mere seconds after the stude started to think he'd failed the trip. ISTR the pilot, who shared his surname with that of a town in the N Midlands, went on to enjoy a career on Bucc's after one token SH tour - no problems with open windows on those, I believe.

[Geriaviator]

Crossing the Pennines in a Tiger Moth, desired track crossing the fold as usual, there was a sharp crack as I tried to refold the map and it disappeared over my shoulder. It was an interesting trip on to Blackpool but fortunately I knew my railway lines and the steel VOR radials took me safely along the low-level corridor north from Crewe. Very relieved to spot the field, oddly enough dead on time.

[ShyTorque]

I'll probably be accused by some random ex-route-Herc fella of not telling the truth (again), but our basic rotary course on Whirlwinds at Shawbury learned the true value of alert crewmen when one of the 2 MACR crewman instructors happened to look up during an early LL Nav trip being flown by one of the fellas 2 courses ahead of me. This crewman instinctively reached out and grabbed the 1/4 mill chart flying at 80-odd knots that had just made its way out of the open cockpit window then calmly passed it back up between the pilot's legs, mere seconds after the stude started to think he'd failed the trip. ISTR the pilot, who shared his surname with that of a town in the N Midlands, went on to enjoy a career on Bucc's after one token SH tour - no problems with open windows on those, I believe.

Would that be a town approx 5nm abeam Chesterfield perchance?

If so, it was actually two SH tours.

[Chu Chu]

Rule # 1 in Daze of Yore
First thing you did upon entry to your accommodation: Always grab a book of hotel matches and keep them with you. They all have the name, address and phone number on them. If lost and/or disorientated show them to the taxi driver, helpful doorman or annoyed police officer. Especially if there is a language problem.

There’s a story about someone who tried that and wound up on a long trip to the local match factory.

[blind pew]

1992 two brothers took off from Vinon NE of Avignon and landed at Fez in an Ash glider. 1400+km. They had enough height for another 50km but had run out of maps. Iirc spent 2 days in prison not having taken their passports…
https://youtu.be/7KH7_UUkPXY
French video with English subtitles.

[visibility3miles]

I still keep some maps in my car just in case my cell phone battery dies.

Call me a Luddite. There is also a very large park not too far away with meandering paths and iffy cell service, so I keep a map in my pocket so I don’t accidentally head off on a five or seven mile route when what I want is less than two miles.

Plus, some basic understanding of navigation is required, because in the USA, if you are not careful, when you enter the name of a town into a map app, you can be sent to a different STATE from the one you planned to visit. A hilarious mistake to view, assuming you don’t blindly follow directions.

[BEagle]

As the Syrian lorry driver transporting luxury cars from Turkey to Gibraltar found out in 2008 when he was sent on a 1600 mile detour to Skegness by his satellite navigation system. Birdwatchers at Gibraltar Point looked on in astonishment as Necdet Bakimci tried to steer his 32-tonne lorry down a narrow lane towards the North Sea....

[Bergerie1]

BP, What an amazing flight. Thank you so much for posting that video.

[condor17]

Disco , sorry to disagree ... 12 yrs on Trids , Doppler map pretty good ... didn't like calm seas , or if you brought the wrong roller strip map !
Needed a reset every now and then from a VOR/D , and would not have used it for an approach . Doppler drift and G/S from same source also V useful .. especially on instrument apps . Consol still pretty good up and down N.Sea when too far from Dover or Kristiansand . Seem to remember 212 DME max.
B732s with Doppler drift and G/S not so good , rumour was they were cheap and for helos [ max speed 200kts ] .
GPS v good for detail , car or a/c .. map/chart for big piccy , with N up !

rgds condor .

[Discorde]

Disco , sorry to disagree ... 12 yrs on Trids , Doppler map pretty good ... didn't like calm seas , or if you brought the wrong roller strip map !
Needed a reset every now and then from a VOR/D , and would not have used it for an approach . Doppler drift and G/S from same source also V useful .. especially on instrument apps.

rgds condor .

Did a year on the T3. I don't recall the moving map ever being used in earnest because it quickly wandered away from true position. Nav on European routes was VOR/DME/NDB. A useful feature was the auto-drift on the HSI. When OFF the a/p flew heading selected. With AUTO the a/p flew the selected heading as a track.

IIRC the moving map kit included a stylus for recording track achieved but again I never saw it in use.

[Discorde]

The 1970s VOR 'area nav' charts were compiled by Ernst Stogmuller and Gordon Wansbrough-White (mock-up below). Limited use due to distortion and also inaccuracy when the radials intercepted at a shallow angle.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/936x900/stogmuller_v3_46f3646e4b3b9178d8cacf0afbf0b2657340ec90.jpg

[NutLoose]

I remember rebuilding an aircraft for a French gentleman, he was heading to somewhere north west of Paris but it was fogged in so he diverted somewhere else... Anyway, the long and short of it, he became lost and found himself low on fuel, so descended through the layer looking for somewhere to put it down and managed to pull of a landing in a plowed field along the furrows without any damage.

Welcome to Kent :E... the problem then came as to how they would lift it out of the field and the USAF came to the rescue with a CH-53 doing it as a training exercise, it all was going swimmingly until the Sea Stallion arrived and the poor little thing was blown over onto its back crushing the arse end, that is where I became involved, we sourced the back end off one from a US breakers yard and nailed it together.

[charliegolf]

Nutty

it all was going swimmingly until the Sea Stallion arrived and the poor little thing was blown over onto its back crushing the arse end, that is where I became involved, we sourced the back end off one from a US breakers yard and nailed it together.

Spookily, I have witnessed that event happening at an airshow in Germany when I was the display crewman on the Puma. I think it was Breitscheid, about 50km east of Bonn. Our heroes entered and settled into the hover, only to flip at least 2 puddle jumpers on their backs. Now enter the anti-hero whose initials were George and Blackie (RIP), who politely enquired, "Don't they teach you cluckers that downwash goes downwind then?"

Spirited reply, "It's only a Cat C mishap- less than $100,000 to fix. It'll be fine. Beer anyone?"

CG

PS, the small airfield Germans were always wonderful hosts.

[typerated]

As the Syrian lorry driver transporting luxury cars from Turkey to Gibraltar found out in 2008 when he was sent on a 1600 mile detour to Skegness by his satellite navigation system. Birdwatchers at Gibraltar Point looked on in astonishment as Necdet Bakimci tried to steer his 32-tonne lorry down a narrow lane towards the North Sea....

Probably just wanted to watch the traffic in the pattern at Wainfleet. Although it might have closed by 2008,?

[Ninthace]

Nutty



Spookily, I have witnessed that event happening at an airshow in Germany when I was the display crewman on the Puma. I think it was Breitscheid, about 50km east of Bonn. Our heroes entered and settled into the hover, only to flip at least 2 puddle jumpers on their backs. Now enter the anti-hero whose initials were George and Blackie (RIP), who politely enquired, "Don't they teach you cluckers that downwash goes downwind then?"

Spirited reply, "It's only a Cat C mishap- less than $100,000 to fix. It'll be fine. Beer anyone?"

CG

PS, the small airfield Germans were always wonderful hosts.
The trouble is while the downwash goes downwind and is persistent, it is not exactly visible, I remember a Chinook hover taxiing along the runway while Phoenix Gliding Club was operating. Cue some rapid jumps on to wing tips as the crosswind component evidenced itself.

[WHBM]

.
GPS v good for detail , car or a/c .. map/chart for big piccy , with N up !.
I've handled various cars with inbuilt GPS, ranging from passable to appalling. One rental car (Audi) not only had the forward direction at the top (infuriating - see above), but the interface was so non-intuitive that I never managed to work out how to change it. It was also set to show all restaurants as an overlay, which in a city centre made the map unusable.

I regret to say the best I have encountered, far and away, was in a Tesla.

[BEagle]

I've handled various cars with inbuilt GPS, ranging from passable to appalling.

Indeed! But my trusty Garmin nüvi 600 always travels with me and has never let me down.

A German colleague and I once hired a car at Hamburg airport. As soon as he fired it up, the SatNav pointed directly to Poland, so I asked in mock innocence whether there was any particular reason for that - was it historical? After fiddling for a couple of minutes, he entered our destination hotel and off we went. He knew a better route once we were over the Elbe, but the SatNav wanted us to go a different way... A few "Bitte biegen Sie nach 500 Metern rechts ab" and the like in a polite female voice, with increasing urgency as we got closer to her preferred turning, until 'she' suddenly shrieked "JETZT RECHTS!" like some whip-wielding Brunhilde from a sex dungeon*. As we went past, there was a pause before she sulkingly announced "Neu berechnen" in such an annoyed tone that had us laughing aloud.

* or so I understand - but not from personal experience!

[Hydromet]

Indeed! But my trusty Garmin nüvi 600 always travels with me and has never let me down.

I also use a Garmin 600 and generally, find it pretty good.However, last week I was driving to an interstate address, but couldn't enter it until I was actually in that state. Instead, I used Apple Maps on my phone, which worked perfectly. I do like the way the Nuvi tells me about any delays on my route, though.

[langleybaston]

Indeed! But my trusty Garmin nüvi 600 always travels with me and has never let me down.

A German colleague and I once hired a car at Hamburg airport. As soon as he fired it up, the SatNav pointed directly to Poland, so I asked in mock innocence whether there was any particular reason for that - was it historical? After fiddling for a couple of minutes, he entered our destination hotel and off we went. He knew a better route once we were over the Elbe, but the SatNav wanted us to go a different way... A few "Bitte biegen Sie nach 500 Metern rechts ab" and the like in a polite female voice, with increasing urgency as we got closer to her preferred turning, until 'she' suddenly shrieked "JETZT RECHTS!" like some whip-wielding Brunhilde from a sex dungeon*. As we went past, there was a pause before she sulkingly announced "Neu berechnen" in such an annoyed tone that had us laughing aloud.

* or so I understand - but not from personal experience!

There really should be an icon which pops up when Satnav is wilfully disobeyed; something like a Teddy ejected left to right, and bouncing in the bottom corner.

[MPN11]

Unlike my first ever experience with Google Maps in PHX on my shiny new iPhone ...
"Then the voice says it’s “24th Street, left at the traffic signals onto Sky Harbor Circle” and finally “Take 2nd left to the Rental Centre”. I obey the latter command, across the wide expanse of 4 traffic lanes, to be confronted by a large No Entry sign and 2 vehicles pointing at me. Thanks, Google Maps and talking brick … this is the bloody EXIT from the Rental Center!! Deep breath, reverse carefully across 3 traffic lanes [glad it’s quiet] and find the Entrance to the Rental Center a hundred yards or so further on. Phew!"

[Low Level Pilot]

Wanted to travel from North Wales to Liverpool.
New the way, but not the final bit in Bootle.
Put in the postcode and off I went.
Satnav wanted me to travel west and not north, so I continually ignored it. Eventually the directions made sense and I arrived at correct destination.
Intrigued, I went into settings to work out what was going wrong.
It was setup for the shortest distance. Ruthin to Holyhead, ferry from Holyhead to Dublin, ferry from Dublin to Liverpool then Liverpool to Bootle!

[blind pew]

1972 up front on a Carvair ex Rochford airport where they had a decca driven map which they used for approaches to down to 300ft into Le Touquet and Lympe.
Had decca on a yacht but when I needed it one time useless due to signal coverage.
Bought the first hand held GPS but sailing off the Essex coast near the military ranges in poor visibility through the swatchways when it indicated up to 56 knots..afterwards read about gps interference originating from military sources.
Hacked a Kobo e-reader with a gps/vario chip which was easily readable in bright sunlight due to liquid paper. Used it in track orientation display but one time I thought it was on the blink as the terrain didn’t match the display until I realised I was flying backwards towards the mountain (with respect to the ground in case of smart Alec’s).
Most alarming was on the very new F100 with an electronic cockpit and relying on the display instead of charts…dirty descent into Sofia during the break up of Yugoslavia on an unfamiliar routing to a VOR approach..ding ding..display goes blank..company had bought the cheap version driven by two DMEs without an inertial platform..dropped out if it didn’t have the required signals or if they were on the same relative bearing.
As to the gripper argument..no comment. ;-)

[212man]

Wanted to travel from North Wales to Liverpool.
New the way, but not the final bit in Bootle.
Put in the postcode and off I went.
Satnav wanted me to travel west and not north, so I continually ignored it. Eventually the directions made sense and I arrived at correct destination.
Intrigued, I went into settings to work out what was going wrong.
It was setup for the shortest distance. Ruthin to Holyhead, ferry from Holyhead to Dublin, ferry from Dublin to Liverpool then Liverpool to Bootle!

nice story, not sure it stands up to scrutiny!

[Mogwi]

PS, the small airfield Germans were always wonderful hosts.

Amen to that! First took a jumping bean in there in 1977 and for a few years afterwards, followed by a SHAR in ‘84. Didn’t initially realise that the runway sloped down to the west and ended up in the grass overshoot. Luckily not a prob for the Harrier and I managed to complete the after-landing checks before departing the runway (canopy open, mask off, wave at crowd!).

First time in, they parked me next to an F-104. “How the hell did you get that in.” I queried, to be answered “on a very large lorry!”

Good beer, great party and lovely hostesses - but that is an other story!

Mog

[WHBM]

Relative drove me down the Portland (Dorset, not Maine) pier, next to the air-sea rescue helo base. Seemingly the pier was not in the database. Had set up the entrance gates as destination, once through those it said turn round, followed by "You are completely surrounded by water ...!".

My own is impeccable, except when going through the Channel Tunnel on the car shuttle train, switched off. For about 10 minutes after driving off it hasn't got a clue where it is, then suddenly recalibrates and all is OK.