"Vintage" aircraft over Berks/M4 (1980s)

[nocsious]

Hi,

I was at primary school near Wokingham during the late 1970s and two comparatively vintage planes were a common sight overhead on weekdays. One was a silver/grey Dakota and the other I think was a Vickers Varsity. If my identification is correct, per Wikipedia both might have been based at RAE during this time.

Just curious to see if anyone has insight into these flights (and whether I'm right about the Varsity!) ?

Thanks...

[longer ron]

RAE Dakota TS423 (Mayfly) with a blunt radar nose was sometimes to be seen trundling around the south of england,ISTR she came in to visit us at Abingdon 'B' Hangar Ramp (AVGAS) circa 1980.
Colour scheme probably Grey lower fuselage/White upper fuselage with a dark blue 'cheat' line just above cabin windows.

[CharlieJuliet]

We certainly had a Varsity in my time - 83 - 85 - WL 679. It was used for research into various systems that were installed.

[treadigraph]

Fairey Surveys also had a DC-3, G-ALWC, which I think lived at White Waltham - I was at school south of Guildford and saw it from time to time; there were three Varsities at Farnborough which were often seen bumbling around on RAE business!

[Pypard]

The Varsity (in raspberry ripple colours) was a sporadic visitor to Lyneham into the late '80s.

[Herod]

CharlieJuliet; Varsity WL 679 is alive and well, being cared for at the RAF Museum, Midlands.

[chevvron]

RAE Dakota TS423 (Mayfly) with a blunt radar nose was sometimes to be seen trundling around the south of england,ISTR she came in to visit us at Abingdon 'B' Hangar Ramp (AVGAS) circa 1980.
Colour scheme probably Grey lower fuselage/White upper fuselage with a dark blue 'cheat' line just above cabin windows.
'423 was delivered to Farnborough at about the same time as Dakota KG661 and '423 was supposed to be used as spares for '661. Hunting's 'WC was a regular visitor and the Hunting crew helped 'convert' some Farnborough pilots to the Dak so at one time, we had no less than 3 Dakotas parked outside the tower at Farnborough. This would have been in about 1979.
Subsequently, '423 was sold to 'Aces High' and is nowadays based at Dunsfold registered (I think) N147CD. Then some eagle eyed spotter at Brize checked the identity of '661 and discovered that aircraft was listed as written off in 1944, so '661 was re-painted and re-registerd as ZA947. As a 'reward' for this, '947 was sent to Brize Norton on 21 Dec 1979 for a day with a 'guest' crew including myself (I was an ATCO and an RAFVRT officer at the time) and other passengers including an RAFVRT Officer from Farnborough ATC Squadron plus some ROC Observers.
About a year later, '947 was lined up for departure from runway 07 at Farnborough when the crew reported they had a 'problem' and were evacuating the aircraft; as they did so, the port undercarriage collapsed allowing the still turning port prop to strike the ground and break off and the wingtip to contact the ground which produced 'wrinkling' in the skin of the port wing.
The superb mechanics in RAE's 'Base Workshops' repaired the damage and as people will be aware, '947 is still flying with BBMF having been transferred when RAE's 'Transport Flight' was disbanded in the early '90s.

[chevvron]

Fairey Surveys also had a DC-3, G-ALWC, which I think lived at White Waltham - I was at school south of Guildford and saw it from time to time; there were three Varsities at Farnborough which were often seen bumbling around on RAE business!
We certainly had 3 Varsities operating at Farnborough when I arrived in 1974, plus there was another Varsity using the callsign 'Bluebell 1' which operated out of West Malling and which would often fly along past Epsom to Guildford then turn south; never knew what that one was doing.

[chevvron]

We certainly had a Varsity in my time - 83 - 85 - WL 679. It was used for research into various systems that were installed.
Probably the one which was used for the development of FLIR and low light TV and which generally flew after dark with the optical flats in the 'bomb bay' providing an excellent 'platform' in which to mount the two sensors. The very first landings using these systems were carried out by '679 with all airfield lighting switched off.
OC Flying at the time was very keen on these systems and he took the time to show us the videotapes of these trials.

[Asturias56]

Fairey's had three silver Dakota's then https://www.faireysurveys.co.uk/

They were always over Wokingham out of White Waltham

Whisky Charlie - used for MoD and RAF camera/linescan/ recce trials - also supported the early Nimrod trials.
Charlie Alpha - survey and geophysics - had a MAD stinger sometimes
Charlie Tango - survey

[Asturias56]

"About a year later, '947 was lined up for departure from runway 07 at Farnborough when the crew reported they had a 'problem' and were evacuating the aircraft; as they did so, the port undercarriage collapsed allowing the still turning port prop to strike the ground and break off and the wingtip to contact the ground which produced 'wrinkling' in the skin of the port wing."

One of the Faireys Dakotas was landing at Birmingham - luckily he choose the grass strip that was available. The undercarriage failed but the pilot puled her off and got back into the circuit with one wheel dangling and an almighty vibration and noise. The Tower informed him that they'd dragged the runway for 100 yards and it looked as it it was the prop that had hit the ground. After 10 minutes of circling they found it flew OK and the engine seemed fine so they headed back to White Waltham where they were able to land safely. Somewhere I have a picture of the prop - the blades are bent back by about 6 inches from the end (!!) . "better fuel consumption but too much noise" was the conclusion.

[Planemike]

Just goes to show what a tough old bird the "Goony Bird " was......!!!

[Liffy 1M]

"About a year later, '947 was lined up for departure from runway 07 at Farnborough when the crew reported they had a 'problem' and were evacuating the aircraft; as they did so, the port undercarriage collapsed allowing the still turning port prop to strike the ground and break off and the wingtip to contact the ground which produced 'wrinkling' in the skin of the port wing."

One of the Faireys Dakotas was landing at Birmingham - luckily he choose the grass strip that was available. The undercarriage failed but the pilot puled her off and got back into the circuit with one wheel dangling and an almighty vibration and noise. The Tower informed him that they'd dragged the runway for 100 yards and it looked as it it was the prop that had hit the ground. After 10 minutes of circling they found it flew OK and the engine seemed fine so they headed back to White Waltham where they were able to land safely. Somewhere I have a picture of the prop - the blades are bent back by about 6 inches from the end (!!) . "better fuel consumption but too much noise" was the conclusion.

A number of sources indicate that ZA947 was fitted with a replacement outer wing after that accident at Farnborough scroll down to the relevant part here. https://www.aviationinmalta.com/CivilGeneralAviation/DC3/MilitaryC47sC117s/tabid/724/language/en-US/Default.aspx

PS That Malta aviation history site is a fascinating resource in its own right.

[Asturias56]

A number of sources indicate that ZA947 was fitted with a replacement outer wing after that accident at Farnborough scroll down to the relevant part here. https://www.aviationinmalta.com/CivilGeneralAviation/DC3/MilitaryC47sC117s/tabid/724/language/en-US/Default.aspx

PS That Malta aviation history site is a fascinating resource in its own right.

I can assure you the FSL one got a new set of wheels and a new prop - and I think that was it . The pilots reflexes were astounding - he said he just felt it start to drop and hauled back on the stick and banged the throttles. But they were very very good "bush" pilots who did an awful lot of hours on the Dakota in some very odd places. Almost all ex RAF of course.

[chevvron]

A number of sources indicate that ZA947 was fitted with a replacement outer wing after that accident at Farnborough scroll down to the relevant part here. https://www.aviationinmalta.com/CivilGeneralAviation/DC3/MilitaryC47sC117s/tabid/724/language/en-US/Default.aspx

PS That Malta aviation history site is a fascinating resource in its own right.
I was on a 'late' duty on the day of '947s accident. It behove me to go out and carry out a runway inspection for the afternoon duty crew so I was able to examine the damage. Cameras were forbidden so I was unable to take a photo, but I noted that as well as the wrinkled upper wing skin, the prop appeared to have broken off at the reduction gear allowing it to bounce up and leave an impact mark squarely in the middle of the pilot's escape hatch.
On my earlier flight, I was sitting near the cockpit door and was able to observe the several handles and levers used by the navigator at various times so I'm not surprised it was possible to move one of them mistakenly when the undercarriage was retracted.

[stevef]

I was on a 'late' duty on the day of '947s accident. It behove me to go out and carry out a runway inspection for the afternoon duty crew so I was able to examine the damage. Cameras were forbidden so I was unable to take a photo, but I noted that as well as the wrinkled upper wing skin, the prop appeared to have broken off at the reduction gear allowing it to bounce up and leave an impact mark squarely in the middle of the pilot's escape hatch.
On my earlier flight, I was sitting near the cockpit door and was able to observe the several handles and levers used by the navigator at various times so I'm not surprised it was possible to move one of them mistakenly when the undercarriage was retracted.

It takes a determined effort to retract the undercarriage on a Dak by mistake! A latch lever on the floor has first to be released from its clip and pulled up. This raises (by cables) spring-loaded latches which are sitting in both a fixed bracket on each bulkhead and slots in the end of the retraction jack rams. Then the gear retraction lever in the cockpit can be raised and the wheels come up hydraulically. It's impossible to select up without the latch lever being raised because of an inter-connect mechanism.
That's three steps to get the gear up. I guess we all have bad days. :{

All I can think might have happened was the latch lever inadvertently pulled all the way up after being released from its clip (which raises the latches clear of the actuator slots instead of leaving them in spring lock). When that happens on the ground, a manual dog and catch mechanisn on the selector can return the latches to the safe spring-loaded engaged position if the operator knows where it is. With the gear still selected down, 750-875 psi hydraulic pressure in the down lines should keep the gear extended. In neutral, the fluid is trapped unless the lever is mis-timed on its shaft or the shear seals are leaking, both unlikely. If UP is selected, the gear will be unsafe and the red lights will illuminate, plus, if I remember correctly, a warning horn will sound if the throttles are below a certain position.
All this is conjecture, of course, it would be interesting to hear the first hand circumstances.

[chevvron]

All I can say is - it wasn't me!!:sad:

[Liobian]

I don't know about Chevvron's history, but I recall evening working at Pershore in the early 70s, with much reduced lighting and the RRE Varsity chugging about with the green laser radiating from said bomb bay. I was a cadet doing ADC at the time.

[Mechta]

A number of sources indicate that ZA947 was fitted with a replacement outer wing after that accident at Farnborough scroll down to the relevant part here. https://www.aviationinmalta.com/CivilGeneralAviation/DC3/MilitaryC47sC117s/tabid/724/language/en-US/Default.aspx
.

A replacement wing was definitely fitted to ZA947. I worked at RAE at the time and remember it sporting its one yellow wing for a while. I also had a very enjoyable flight in her, in around 1989. We flew from Farnborough, down to the Solent, along to Newhaven and back to Farnborough all at 2000ft. The flight was to test an infra-red linescan destined for the RAE's own XRAE 2 UAV. There was talk of replacing the Dakota with a Shorts SD330, but when they looked into it, making modifications (generally cutting holes in the floor) to a more modern aircraft would involve a lot more design effort than it would with the Dak.

My mother had also flown in Dakotas as a aerial photographer when she worked at Farnborough in the fifties and sixties. They used the Fairey Air Surveys Dakotas and either drove to White Waltham or it would come to Farnborough to pick them up.

[Asturias56]

"or it would come to Farnborough to pick them up."

Nothing too much for a valued customer! IIRC personnel from either side were in and out of each others offices, hangars and aircraft all the time.

As Mechta says the great benefit of a Dakota was that you could cut holes in all over the place very quickly - and you could put a big, ungainly, prototype bit of kit or even an R&D proof of concept into them (normally Whisky Charlie) and see how they worked. If it was encouraging then you could spend money on miniturisation and detailed design.

FSL were able to get me a visit to the Nimrod R1 prototype at Boscombe AND a Q&A on state of the art of long distance navigation without bothering "higher authority". They did insist I signed the OSA tho - and bring along some ID.