Are RAF pilots not permitted to vote ?

[stilton]

I’ve never seen anything to back this up but an ex RAF pilot known well to me claims that he was not allowed to vote in general elections while serving


Can anyone shed any light on this, whether it’s true now or has ever been ?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I’ve never seen anything to back this up but an ex RAF pilot known well to me claims that he was not allowed to vote in general elections while serving


Can anyone shed any light on this, whether it’s true now or has ever been ?
Certainly not the case in the 21st century, never heard of it being a thing either but I'm sure the old and bold will chip in.

[SASless]

This is the US Military policy re political activities for US Personnel and Civilian Employees of the DOD.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2208332/service-members-civilians-bound-by-dod-rules-during-election-campaigns/

[Timelord]

Not true. It required however, a certain amount of form filling to register either where you were stationed or back wherever you regarded home or a proxy or postal vote. It never ceased to amaze me how many people didn’t bother and were therefore unable to vote.

[ORAC]

You can both vote and join a political party.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/register-to-vote-if-youre-in-the-armed-forces

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2018-10-15/HL10679

[212man]

I’ve never seen anything to back this up but an ex RAF pilot known well to me claims that he was not allowed to vote in general elections while serving


Can anyone shed any light on this, whether it’s true now or has ever been ?

I should probably take everything he says with a pinch of salt, now!

[OJ 72]

stilton - I think that your pilot friend is talking absolute ‘poo’!!! 💩 😱🤭

During my time in the RAF I have voted not only in General Elections, but also Northern Ireland Assembly Elections, Local Government Elections and, both the referenda on the ‘Belfast Agreement’ and ‘Brexit’!

All it took was a little planning ahead…insomuch that I had to apply for a postal vote or a ‘vote by proxy’!

But then again, I am a Navigator and not a member of ‘the two-winged Master Race’, so perhaps planning ahead was my strong suit!!! 🤔😃

[ShyTorque]

At one time during my RAF service, despite my efforts to stop it, I had three votes! A weakness of the electoral administration system.

[Video Mixdown]

Completely untrue since at least the 1970's and probably far longer. Like all UK citizens, service personnel have to register to vote where they live, and if overseas they need to arrange a postal or proxy vote. Not only is it allowed, it is actively encouraged. I think the only restriction is that you are not allowed to wear uniform if taking part in political activities.

[Bob Viking]

But then again, I am a Navigator and not a member of ‘the two-winged Master Race’, so perhaps planning ahead was my strong suit!!! 🤔😃

Or maybe just a sign that you had a lot more spare time on your hands.

BV

That was banter by the way. And you must have known it was coming when you posted.

[Ninthace]

Or maybe just a sign that you had a lot more spare time on your hands.

BV

That was banter by the way. And you must have known it was coming when you posted.
Perhaps he had more time because he did not need help with the long words :)

[OJ 72]

Thanks for the reminder BV :ok: - Time Management...another speciality of the Navigator!!! :8

[Ninthace]

What was the definition of gross ignorance? Was it 144 pilots or 144 navigators? I forget. :E

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Did you friend tell you this precisely 4 days ago, perhaps some time prior to lunch?

(For the Navs, I'll do the sums for you - posted 5th April, minus 4 = 1st April ;-)

(more banter)

[chevvron]

I’ve never seen anything to back this up but an ex RAF pilot known well to me claims that he was not allowed to vote in general elections while serving


Can anyone shed any light on this, whether it’s true now or has ever been ?
Maybe he was under 21 yrs old and it was 1970.

[Ninthace]

Maybe he was under 21 yrs old and it was 1970.
How long ago is it that you could get through all the training and earn your wings and still be under 21?

[NRU74]

A number of us on the Valiant squadron couldn't vote in the 1964 election because we were under 21.

[OJ 72]

Ninthace - not sure about the definition of 'gross ignorance' but I'm certain that the collective nouns were: 'An ego of pilots' and 'A lost of Navigators'!!! :)

And the shameless thread drift continues!!! Focus guys (and/or Gals) - Focus!!!

[ShyTorque]

What was the definition of gross ignorance? Was it 144 pilots or 144 navigators? I forget. :E


You mean you don’t know?

[mahogany bob]

NAVs are alright BUT would you let YOUR daughter (son!) marry one!

[Ninthace]

You mean you don’t know?
I was the one that had to explain it!

[Herod]

How long ago is it that you could get through all the training and earn your wings and still be under 21?

1967. Wings, both fixed-wing and rotary, 7 months in Aden, GSM (I was there medal), and still only 20.

[ShyTorque]

NAVs are alright BUT would you let YOUR daughter (son!) marry one!

Do “Navs” still actually exist? I thought they had all been replaced by a phone app and their equivalent mass in fuel….

;)

[Herod]

There is a problem with replacing navs with a phone app. If ever in a survival situation, you can't eat the phone app.

[Timelord]

Actually, I think we have found the answer. This guy’s navigator told him that he couldn’t vote because he was a pilot and he believed it. And believes it to this day.

[OJ 72]

But can an App carry your bags into the hotel, buy the first beer, and engage in scintillatingly witty but droll badinage with the ugly, less attractive, the unprepossessing one of the pair of 'ladies' frequenting the bar of said hotel?!? :cool: :) Je crois que non, as they don't necessarily say 'down our way'!!! :8

[Ninthace]

There is a problem with replacing navs with a phone app. If ever in a survival situation, you can't eat the phone app.
So which is nicer, fresh roast pilot with a selection of seasonal herbs and vegetables or raw and badly butchered navigator?

[NutLoose]

They can, but only if they have Mummy with them to hold their hand.

[stilton]

Thanks for the replies, the era concerned would have been mid ‘50’s to mid ‘70’s although it doesn’t sound like that makes a difference

[ORAC]

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-registration-of-military-voters/

[chevvron]

How long ago is it that you could get through all the training and earn your wings and still be under 21?
Stilton never mentioned him being trained let alone having got his wings, just that he was 'serving'.

[Ninthace]

Stilton never mentioned him being trained let alone having got his wings, just that he was 'serving'.
I think we have established he can vote if he is serving,
The question than arose of when a serving pilot might not have been able to vote and it was suggested that the cut off conditiom were pre 1970 (possibly '69 as that is when the age of majority changed IIRC), aged under 21. My question was aimed at seeing how far back we would have to go to find a serving pilot under the age of 21. If I have it aright, that would required the pilot to be a non graduate and have passed through the flying training system before the age of 21.

[binbrook]

AFAIR, during NS the time to wings was typically about 18-20 months, so we surely must have a Ppruner who had his wings before age 20. Since you could also ask to be called up before 18, he may even have completed his 2 years by the time he was 20.

[sangiovese.]

No stick no vote? Oh then we discovered CRM😀

[Ninthace]

AFAIR, during NS the time to wings was typically about 18-20 months, so we surely must have a Ppruner who had his wings before age 20. Since you could also ask to be called up before 18, he may even have completed his 2 years by the time he was 20.
Does that include IOT?

[Cornish Jack]

Possibly the restriction which Stilton's friend experienced was the complicated method of indicating choice of candidate at the polling station? :p

[Ninthace]

Perhaps the ex pilot in question was also a member of the House of Lords, like lunatics and prisoners, they have no vote.

[ShyTorque]

Stilton never mentioned him being trained let alone having got his wings, just that he was 'serving'.

Maybe he didn’t serve beyond the age of 21.

[Sloppy Link]

As I recall from history, the GE of 1945 took so long to announce the winner because of the collation of Service voters serving overseas.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Ex-2-wing blunderer here; since 1972 I have exercised my right to vote from places as varied as Hong Kong, NI, Oman, Brunei, Kuwait and, er, West Devon. No point criticising the government of the day if you can't be bothered to take part in the electoral process - I wish we had the Australian compulsory-voting system.


AFAIR, during NS the time to wings was typically about 18-20 months, so we surely must have a Ppruner who had his wings before age 20. Since you could also ask to be called up before 18, he may even have completed his 2 years by the time he was 20.


I just checked various sources on t'interweb (Wikipedia, unusually, not the most helpful for this particular one) and confirmed that writer Frederick Forsyth qualified as an RAF pilot at 19 and went on to fly fighters (Vampire?). He was born in 1938 and left the RAF in 1958, so it looks like 'binbrook' was correct.

[answer=42]

Ninthace - not sure about the definition of 'gross ignorance' but I'm certain that the collective nouns were: 'An ego of pilots' and 'A lost of Navigators'!!! :)


I always thought that the collective noun was 'a brace brace of pilots'.

[212man]

Stilton never mentioned him being trained let alone having got his wings, just that he was 'serving'.
Well, he described him as an 'ex-pilot', which would normally imply he was trained and qualified. Unless he is Mrs. Mitty's little boy......

[Ken Scott]

Servicemen used not to be allowed to register at their home address but had to have a postal vote, the registration form that arrived in the mail used to say ‘do not sign if you are a member of the armed forces’ so perhaps this is the root of our friend’s misunderstanding?

When I was spending a considerable amount of my time in the Middle East I missed a couple of elections and my postal vote would only find its way to my tent after voting had closed back in the UK. I was somewhat miffed that, as a supposed defender of democracy I was seemingly denied my right to partake in it, so the next time the form arrived at home I signed the electoral register like any other citizen of the UK. I figured that if I was away and unable to present myself at the polling station to exercise my democratic right to vote I’d be no worse off than before. As it happened I never missed another election and I was prepared to argue my case if I was ever ‘found out’.

[4mastacker]

I was registered as a 'Service Voter' at my home address and my father was registered as my proxy. That continued for many years until Mrs 4ma arrived on the scene and a more settled existence began.

[binbrook]

Ninthace
That time did include IOT. I started as NS, under 18, and my logbook shows a week at Padgate followed by holding for 5 weeks at ACTU (Air Crew Transit Unit) at Cranwell. That was followed by 6 weeks at Kirton Lindsey 'grading' on Tigers, before starting IOT proper at ITS at Jurby. I was set to do flying training in Canada, but went to RAFC instead, arriving there exactly 6 months after call-up. Even so, I had my wings before I was 21.
None of this time counted towards a pension of course

[aw ditor]

Swing the Lights 66'.

[Mad Monk]

Firstly Not RAF.
Secondly I reside outside of the UK, however i have a right to vote for fifteen years after choosing to move.
All of this is confirmed by the authority of my original place of birth and residence for six decades.
Yet I am never sent any sort of voting form !
So what is going on ?

[gwynorod]

There was a time when my name in the electoral register was followed by the letter S, indicating I was told that I was a service voter. The snotty cow who handed me my voting slip told me she had no no idea that we were allowed to vote. I told her that by the mid 1960s, some of us could also read and write

[OK4Wire]

How long ago is it that you could get through all the training and earn your wings and still be under 21?

Pilots' Course graduation in 1979, aged 19. Front line well before 21. Brain still not fully engaged, however.

(This was in the antipodean services, though. No holding.)

[Wetstart Dryrun]

I was acquainted with Taja.

Teenage jet ace.

..as labelled by the local paper.

Not sure whether this was to mark a squadron debut or jet training on the James Provost.

The name followed him around.



​​​​

[Video Mixdown]

Firstly Not RAF.
Secondly I reside outside of the UK, however i have a right to vote for fifteen years after choosing to move.
All of this is confirmed by the authority of my original place of birth and residence for six decades.
Yet I am never sent any sort of voting form !
So what is going on ?
​​​​​​The current procedures regarding the registration of UK overseas voters are very easy to access online. I've never understood this desire to take part in UK votes that are irrelevant to you if you now live permanently overseas. If you've got a burning desire for democratic representation it would make more sense to take whatever steps are necessary to take part in elections that directly affect you where you now live.

[kenparry]

Those who joined at 17 1/2 straight from school in the 60s and went through training with no holding (yes that did happen) could be on a front-line Sqn before their 20th birthday. I know at least one who did that, and he went on to have a successful FJ career that took him to 1-star rank.

[NutLoose]

There was a time when my name in the electoral register was followed by the letter S, indicating I was told that I was a service voter. The snotty cow who handed me my voting slip told me she had no no idea that we were allowed to vote. I told her that by the mid 1960s, some of us could also read and write

You should have told her that you were also unaware that women had been given the vote.

[ShyTorque]

​​​​​​The current procedures regarding the registration of UK overseas voters are very easy to access online. I've never understood this desire to take part in UK votes that are irrelevant to you if you now live permanently overseas. If you've got a burning desire for democratic representation it would make more sense to take whatever steps are necessary to take part in elections that directly affect you where you now live.

There used to be a whole bunch of overseas voters who had a great desire to directly influence U.K. matters. They were in Brussels….

[Two's in]

Not much point in defending democracy if you don't practice it...

[wiggy]

​​​​​​The current procedures regarding the registration of UK overseas voters are very easy to access online. I've never understood this desire to take part in UK votes that are irrelevant to you if you now live permanently overseas. If you've got a burning desire for democratic representation it would make more sense to take whatever steps are necessary to take part in elections that directly affect you where you now live.

Fear not, live overseas long enough and you get kicked off the register anyway...

It's just a shame HMRC don't play the same game and let you off the hook when non-resident with regard to paying UK NI and UK income Tax on earnings generated in some lines of work, or paying UK income tax on some pensions.

How does it go: No taxation without representation?

[pr00ne]

There used to be a whole bunch of overseas voters who had a great desire to directly influence U.K. matters. They were in Brussels….

And an awful lot of them were British…

[Asturias56]

"How does it go: No taxation without representation?"

that was a an American scheme - the British fought a war against that principle

[Tengah Type]

As a Navigator, I joined my first Squadron in 1963 aged 19yrs and 7 mths. This included 1 month holding before Nav School
and another month before Canberra OCU and 2 Bombing Courses. Jet pilots took 6 months longer, but I believe that Rotary
was, at that time, about the same time as Navs.
There was a Whirlwind pilot in 1964/65 with a DFC who I believe was under 21.

On thread always had the vote from age 21 as Service Voter with Postal/Proxy arrangements without any problems.

[wiggy]

"How does it go: No taxation without representation?"

that was a an American scheme - the British fought a war against that principle

I know and every spring when the tax return forms from UK HMRC drop through the letter box, chez nous, I think our American friends might have had a point...

[Ninthace]

I’ve never seen anything to back this up but an ex RAF pilot known well to me claims that he was not allowed to vote in general elections while serving


Can anyone shed any light on this, whether it’s true now or has ever been ?

Well it appears the answer is it is not true now and it has never been true. Not on grounds of Service or employment within the Service, tell your friend. The only way a serving pilot would have been denied a vote would have been because they were not eligible to vote on grounds of age, peerage, criminality or lunacy.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Ninthace - not sure about the definition of 'gross ignorance' but I'm certain that the collective nouns were: 'An ego of pilots' and 'A lost of Navigators'!!! :)

And the shameless thread drift continues!!! Focus guys (and/or Gals) - Focus!!!

…and a whinge of Crewmen…

[Herod]

Well it appears the answer is it is not true now and it has never been true. Not on grounds of Service or employment within the Service, tell your friend. The only way a serving pilot would have been denied a vote would have been because they were not eligible to vote on grounds of age, peerage, criminality or lunacy.

A pilot banned for lunacy? Surely not. On second thoughts, quite possibly. :)

[Union Jack]

Swing the Lights 66'.
Ahem...."Swing the lamp!":=

Jack

[Alex Whittingham]

I've never seen anything to back this up but an ex RAF pilot known well to me claims that he was not allowed to vote in general elections while serving Could he be referring to the fact that in the olden days you couldn't STAND in a general election whilst serving? It used to be that if you put yourself up as a candidate you got a quick discharge - hence every by-election had 10 to 20 ex-service candidates looking for a quick way to get out.

[charliegolf]

…and a whinge of Crewmen…

Disgraceful slur! It's 'a thicket', and well you know it!:ok:

CG

[ShyTorque]

The only way a serving pilot would have been denied a vote would have been because they were not eligible to vote on grounds of age, peerage, criminality or lunacy.

That could rule out lots of us! ;)

[Ninthace]

That could rule out lots of us! ;)
Certainly should!

[ExAscoteer2]

I always thought that the collective noun for a group of Navs was a 'Quandary'...

[Ninthace]

I always thought that the collective noun for a group of Navs was a 'Quandary'...
Not a Wherarewy?

[pr00ne]

Not a Wherarewy?

No, a group of Navs was a ‘pointless!’

[ExAscoteer2]

1 Nav = An uncertainty
2 Navs = A quandary
3 Navs = LOST!

I used have to fly with upto 4 of the buggers!

[langleybaston]

The navs conundrum is linked [was linked before hi-tech universal time signals] to the number of watches/ time pieces needed to provide a warm feeling of accuracy:

one watch - might be right, might be wrong
two watches - would probably disagree a little
three watches - good chance two would agree, go for it.

Incidentally my 1963 wind-up Rolex, costing a fortune to maintain, keeps time much less well than my three quartz/ battery jobs, costing £140, £90 and £35 respectively.

When the clocks change all four are set to the second. Six months later the Rolex is 5 secs adrift, the others either bang on or + / - 2 seconds, going by Rugby.

Back to Navs: I taught Met to Nav School at Finningley for three years. The nav staff and pupils were top class, I enjoyed the experience and the company. Thank you guys.

[212man]

When the clocks change all four are set to the second. Six months later the Rolex is 5 secs adrift, the others either bang on or + / - 2 seconds, going by Rugby.

My GMT II gains about 5 seconds a day!

[The Oberon]

The navs conundrum is linked [was linked before hi-tech universal time signals] to the number of watches/ time pieces needed to provide a warm feeling of accuracy:

one watch - might be right, might be wrong
two watches - would probably disagree a little
three watches - good chance two would agree, go for it.

Incidentally my 1963 wind-up Rolex, costing a fortune to maintain, keeps time much less well than my three quartz/ battery jobs, costing £140, £90 and £35 respectively.

When the clocks change all four are set to the second. Six months later the Rolex is 5 secs adrift, the others either bang on or + / - 2 seconds, going by Rugby.

Back to Navs: I taught Met to Nav School at Finningley for three years. The nav staff and pupils were top class, I enjoyed the experience and the company. Thank you guys.



My GMT II gains about 5 seconds a day!


Get yourselves a Casio Waveceptor Solar G-shock for around £110. No batteries, tied to "Rugby", automatic GMT/BST changeover and a couple of button presses puts you anywhere in the world.

[ORAC]

Get yourselves a Casio Waveceptor Solar G-shock for around £110. No batteries, tied to "Rugby", automatic GMT/BST changeover and a couple of button presses puts you anywhere in the world.
Transporters really would put pilots out of business… 😏😏

[bonajet]

I'd vote for the 1963 GMT Rolex, which is probably worth a few grand now and accept having been late at a couple of IPs. Your Casio is worthless with a flat battery in the retirement draw.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

No watches....

Hungry, time for food.

Thirsty, time for a drink
Tired, time for a snooze.

Randy, .... mmmmm that seems to be stopped.

[212man]

I'd vote for the 1963 GMT Rolex, which is probably worth a few grand now and accept having been late at a couple of IPs. Your Casio is worthless with a flat battery in the retirement draw.
I won't quote numbers, as that is vulgar, but in 19 years mine has gone up in value 7 fold! Rather ironic as that was the last thing on my mind, yet desired investments have come nowhere close......

[langleybaston]

Its not only my Rolex, we bought His and Hers, identical lookers but the Hers is petite, to celebrate first child.
Still got the certificates, all stuffed in the sock drawer, never get worn.
"One of these days ........"

[nonsense]

​​​​​​The current procedures regarding the registration of UK overseas voters are very easy to access online. I've never understood this desire to take part in UK votes that are irrelevant to you if you now live permanently overseas. If you've got a burning desire for democratic representation it would make more sense to take whatever steps are necessary to take part in elections that directly affect you where you now live.

I lost my EU passport in a Brexit vote I wasn't allowed to take part in.

[212man]

I lost my EU passport in a Brexit vote I wasn't allowed to take part in.
Yes, I’m a PR in an EU country but can’t vote in national elections. Sane as a USA Green Card.

[J.A.F.O.]

Pilots aren't allowed to vote as they can't spell X.

[Ninthace]

Pilots aren't allowed to vote as they can't spell X.
That has been allowed for in electoral law. As a result of objections from the master race, the mark has to be unambiguous and in one box only. Crayon is acceptable. The question is, can a pilot colour in the box and stay inside the lines?

[Herod]

That has been allowed for in electoral law. As a result of objections from the master race, the mark has to be unambiguous and in one box only. Crayon is acceptable. The question is, can a pilot colour in the box and stay inside the lines?

Lines?? That requires a navigator.

[Ninthace]

Lines?? That requires a navigator.
A navigator to draw the lines maybe, but budgie wearers would claim only they have the hand and eye coordination to colour it in, using the crayon supplied by the navigator after they had eaten theirs.

[Avionker]

Lines?? That requires a navigator.

Must be easy if the aircrew can manage it between them. If it was hard the ground crew would have to do it…

[jayteeto]

I commissioned from the ranks in 1987. (Fg Off) I didn’t hold a single day through training and it took 2yrs 5 months to wings, including IOT. There were many Pilot Officers getting wings and on squadrons. Even in the 90s

[Ken Scott]

Plt Off Denis Wissler joined the RAF on 10 Jul 39, the day before his 19th birthday. He was awarded his wings in Nov and joined 85 Sqn in France 2 weeks before the German Blitzkreig on 10 May 40. He flew back to England with his Sqn at the time of Dunkirk then was posted to 17 Sqn back in France to support the evacuations from the western ports. He flew with 17 Sqn throughout the Battle of Britain, including crash landing after being shot up and wounded on the 24 Sep, returning to action 3 weeks later. He was killed on 11 Nov 40 having been shot down by an Me 109 at the age of 20.

He was never old enough to vote.