BOAC to Johannesburg

[707AF]

I made some searches in the old timetable published by the BOAC . I noticed that the COMETs and the VC10s were flown just after, but the 707-436 was never flown to Johannesburg . Could you confirm first , and tell me why thank you


Kind regards

[Groundloop]

I made some searches in the old timetable published by the BOAC . I noticed that the COMETs and the VC10s were flown just after, but the 707-436 was never flown to Johannesburg . Could you confirm first , and tell me why thank you


Kind regards
One of BOAC's specs for the VC-10 was the ability to operate from hot and high African airports so maybe that was why they thought they should use it on that route.

[VictorGolf]

I well remember watching the VC-10s operating at Embakasi airpoirt in Nairobi. The altitude was in the region of 5500ft. One particular flight involved an EAA VC-10 on a flight test which was off by the first intersection roughly half way down the 10,000 ft runway. By comparison 30 minutes later an Ethiopian (?) Boeing 720 "tucked it's tail in to the hedge", metaphorically speaking, and only just got off, accompanied by great volumes of black smoke.

[Mr Mac]

707/AF
As others have said hot and high not good for 707 / DC 8 operations so VC 10 to Joburg and Nairobi was the name of the game. Both types operated into those airports but I believe there were some restrictions hence if you had a V10 you used it on these routes I was told some years ago by BA station manager in Lagos.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[rog747]

JNB 707 early ops -

BOAC did not use their RR 707's down to East and South Africa, but did send them to Nigeria (some were leased to Nigeria AW with titles)

SAA's first 707's with JT4's were unique in having full width wing LE flaps added to enable hot' n high ops.
They were called 707-344A's.

Many jet flights left JNB (and NBO) in the early hours of the morning when the outside air temps were lower.

[longer ron]

I did fly in and out of Zimbabwe in the early/mid 1980's,when travelling 'officially' we had to use Air Zim - which meant 707-320 (ex Lufthansa ?),my first trip out from Gatwick was bad enough - warm day,full load and as much cargo as could be stuffed in the holds LOL - I honestly thought we were going to end up across Lowfield Heath Rd,we eventually achieved lift off just before the rwy threshold :)

[crewmeal]

There was a VC-10 route from JNB to HND via SEZ and HKG back in the 70's I remember chatting to a VC-10 crew in the Casa Mia hotel JNB who were about to leave for a few days in SEZ.

[dixi188]

I did fly in and out of Zimbabwe in the early/mid 1980's,when travelling 'officially' we had to use Air Zim - which meant 707-320 (ex Lufthansa ?),my first trip out from Gatwick was bad enough - warm day,full load and as much cargo as could be stuffed in the holds LOL - I honestly thought we were going to end up across Lowfield Heath Rd,we eventually achieved lift off just before the rwy threshold :)
I remember watching the Air Zim 707 take off at LGW when on lunch break. If they were on 08 then they sometimes only cleared the LOC antenna by what looked like a few feet. There was also often a train stopped at signals right in line with the runway and I thought that was not the best place to be.

[Liffy 1M]

For anyone who hankers after the days of 707 operations, I would thoroughly recommend this YouTube channel, which features plenty of 707s, DC-8s and sundry other freighter types in operation at Ostend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6PVu-ou-gY

[longer ron]

I remember watching the Air Zim 707 take off at LGW when on lunch break. If they were on 08 then they sometimes only cleared the LOC antenna by what looked like a few feet. There was also often a train stopped at signals right in line with the runway and I thought that was not the best place to be.


That is exactly like I remember it - dixi - good to have corroboration :)
I have a feeling mine was an early evening flight to Harare ?

[Sotonsean]

That is exactly like I remember it - dixi - good to have corroboration :)
I have a feeling mine was an early evening flight to Harare ?

Perhaps the lunch break quote should have been dinner break as the Air Zimbabwe Boeing 707 flights always departed LGW in the early evening.

RH 124 HRE 22.25 LGW 07.45 TUE THU SAT B707
RH 121 LGW 19.00 HRE 06.00 WED FRI SUN B707

[dixi188]

Perhaps the lunch break quote should have been dinner break as the Air Zimbabwe Boeing 707 flights always departed LGW in the early evening.

RH 124 HRE 22.25 LGW 07.45 TUE THU SAT B707
RH 121 LGW 19.00 HRE 06.00 WED FRI SUN B707
Maybe it was tea/dinner break. I used to do a lot of overtime and odd shifts in the early 1980s. If the weather was nice I would sit outside and watch the planes go by.
Another 707 that used a lot of runway was Air Tanzania.

[longer ron]

Perhaps the lunch break quote should have been dinner break as the Air Zimbabwe Boeing 707 flights always departed LGW in the early evening.

RH 124 HRE 22.25 LGW 07.45 TUE THU SAT B707
RH 121 LGW 19.00 HRE 06.00 WED FRI SUN B707

Many thanks for the info Sean :)

[longer ron]

Maybe it was tea/dinner break. I used to do a lot of overtime and odd shifts in the early 1980s. If the weather was nice I would sit outside and watch the planes go by.
Another 707 that used a lot of runway was Air Tanzania.
You and me both dixi - by approx 14 months later I was doing lots of overtime as well - not too far from LGW as it happens :)

[Allan Lupton]

Thread creep but I can say that an aunt and uncle of mine travelled to Europe from Jo'burg in BOAC Comet 1s. After the accidents, that aunt claimed she knew the aeroplane wasn't right as she had had the draught of an air leak round her legs!
Half a decade earlier my father and I emigrated to Southern Rhodesia travelling by (multi-stop) Vickers Viking of Hunting Air Travel - Yorkshire thrift precluded using the BOAC flying boat service, something I found it hard to forgive.

[Warmtoast]

The attached shows the 1953 BOAC timetable to South Africa.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/427x500/boac_timetable_1953_cover_f8d40c31d8bdd6ab091791f607d8d5f6a3 221309.jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/896x406/boac_1953_comet_service_lhr_jo_burg_a00c1d411444a611920a6461 b4a04ad3d769dfa4.jpg

[pax britanica]

Crew meal

Possibly the most exotic route BA/BOAC ever flew , I think it went HND, HKG, CMB (COLOMBO) SEZ JNB . A complicated swap to get the crew and aircraft back to London, . I am not sure if it was 707 ever but VC10s were the usual equipmewnt. Work to me to the Seychelles Auritius and thus Eastern Africa sebveral times in the late 70s/early 80s .(no direct s to London back then)

Dod BOAC never fly 707-436s to Nairobi, I had a school friend who was a junior FO on 436s at the time and I remember him saying that evena night time take off from Nairobi was a worry . Did they not at times go via Entebbe which is much lower elevation .

I think one of my Sez LHR flights went via Entebe and was the last BOAC trip there due to Idi Amin. Itwas certainly very unpleasant havign AK47 toting 'securty gaurds ' whatever Amins secret police were called wandering up and down the aisle during the turnaround. We seemed to make more noise than usual on the climb out explained away by the Captain who siad it was BOACS last scheduled trip to Entebbe and they wanted to say goodbye ina suitably loud manner -VC10s being the eprfect plane for that . .

[PAXboy]

Nice story pax_britanica. My first ever flight was VC-10 in Dec 1965: LHR (The Oceanic Terminal!) CIA; NBO; JNB. The main runway at JNB [03L / 21R] is now 14, 495 / 4421 and the A380 uses a fair amount but, of course, the engines are so very different these days. It is still rare for a long haul out of JNB to leave in the midday heat. Firstly, due to temperature but also because people prefer overnight for long haul. I used to have some timings for take off roll ex LHR Vs JNB for the same aircraft type but have lost them. Of course, it was never possible to know the actual take off weight but it is usually the case that JNB take off roll is a good 20 seconds longer.

[Mr Mac]

Paxboy
Air India take offs to Bombay / Delhi from LHR also used to use a lot of runway I used to think back in the 80 / 90,s. By comparison BA etc seemed to lift off quickly. This as just an observation from being in an aircraft behind them as they went over the hump in the runway. My feelings were confirmed by an ex AA skipper who I bumped into in Mumbai when he and his wife were on holiday and had flown out of LHR with AI. He said he had watched AI take offs numerous times when behind them at LHR and wondering if they were going to get airborne, but being onboard brought a whole new world of uncomfortable feelings !!

My own longest take off run was in an A340 Singapore Airlines Singapore to Newark, and I thought we were going to become a sea plane it was that long. The flight was full and cargo looked healthy as well so we were heavy.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[WHBM]

I made some searches in the old timetable published by the BOAC . I noticed that the COMETs and the VC10s were flown just after, but the 707-436 was never flown to Johannesburg . Could you confirm first , and tell me why thank you
Johannesburg was a direct BOAC transition from Comet 4s to VC-10s at the end of July 1964. As well as Jo'burg, the flights stopped at both Salisbury in Southern Rhodesia and Nairobi, which both I think are even higher. Although elevation was not everything, as they changed over the sea-level flights to Ghana and Nigeria from Comets to VC-10s in the same manner and time.

The BOAC Comet 4s were only some six years old in 1964, and it was doubtless not a long term plan for them to be outmoded so quickly. Some of them never ran commercially for BOAC again after this date, until they were sold to be the start of the Dan-Air fleet a few years later. There wasn't a full BOAC fleet of 707s, as it was known the VC-10 was coming, designed more specifically for these routes, and the initial 707 fleet was fully occupied on Transatlantic and Far East routes. There were still some Britannias around in 1964, similarly not at all fully depreciated, when the Comets started to be withdrawn, as well - their last BOAC route was New York to Bermuda.

Another longstanding BOAC Comet flight was the Australasia route, as both Melbourne and Auckland, New Zealand did not have a runway able to handle a 707. Auckland stayed Comet until the new airport there opened in 1965, while Tullamarine did not replace Essendon at Melbourne until some time later, so BOAC gave it up - apparently even the TAA and Ansett Electras caused runway strength problems at Essendon, such that emergency works had to be done.

[bean]

Johannesburg was a direct BOAC transition from Comet 4s to VC-10s at the end of July 1964. As well as Jo'burg, the flights stopped at both Salisbury in Southern Rhodesia and Nairobi, which both I think are even higher. Although elevation was not everything, as they changed over the sea-level flights to Ghana and Nigeria from Comets to VC-10s in the same manner and time.

The BOAC Comet 4s were only some six years old in 1964, and it was doubtless not a long term plan for them to be outmoded so quickly. Some of them never ran commercially for BOAC again after this date, until they were sold to be the start of the Dan-Air fleet a few years later. There wasn't a full BOAC fleet of 707s, as it was known the VC-10 was coming, designed more specifically for these routes, and the initial 707 fleet was fully occupied on Transatlantic and Far East routes. There were still some Britannias around in 1964, similarly not at all fully depreciated, when the Comets started to be withdrawn, as well - their last BOAC route was New York to Bermuda.

Another longstanding BOAC Comet flight was the Australasia route, as both Melbourne and Auckland, New Zealand did not have a runway able to handle a 707. Auckland stayed Comet until the new airport there opened in 1965, while Tullamarine did not replace Essendon at Melbourne until some time later, so BOAC gave it up - apparently even the TAA and Ansett Electras caused runway strength problems at Essendon, such that emergency works had to be done.
Wrong. BOAC cancelled a large number of VC10s stating the better economics of the 707. Their was a lot of fuss and scandal about it at the time. The Comet was too small for the job so hen the Super VC10s which were delivered in far smaller numbers than the original order-came along they were put on North Atlantic routes replacing 707s which transferred to far eastern routes replacing the Comets. I would call 20 707s a full fleet

[Flightrider]

The BA timetable from 1 January 1974 - so the first one - has a special advert in it "Fastest from Johannesburg to London. BOAC's one-stop 747. Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday." The route was obviously a fairly early upgrade to the 747.

One page missing from the booklet which unfortunately happens to be the southbound LON-JNB services. But the northbounds were:

Monday BA022 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0620 ZRH 0710 - 0750 LHR
Tuesday BA024 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0610 LHR
Wednesday BA026 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0645 FRA 0745 - 0815 LHR
Thursday BA028 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0620 ZRH 0710 - 0750 LHR
Friday BA030 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0610 LHR
Saturday BA032 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0610 LHR
Sunday BA034 JNB 1845 - 2330 NBO 0030 - 0610 LHR

VC10s were on
Tue SEZ-DAR-NBO-NIC-LHR
Thu SEZ-NBO-EBB-LHR
Fri BLZ-NBO-NIC-LHR
Sat LUN-NBO-KRT-LHR
Sat MRU-SEZ-NBO-CAI-LHR
Sun SEZ-ADD-NIC-LHR daytime

And the VC10s also did:
Wed BA045 LHR-EBB-NBO-SEZ, then aircraft operated BA910A SEZ-CMB-HKG-NRT to arrive on Friday afternoon
Thu NRT-HKG-CMB-SEZ BA911, then the BA048 SEZ-NBO-EBB-LHR
Sat BA051 LHR-NBO-SEZ
Sat NRT-HKG-CMB-SEZ-JNB
Sun BA910B JNB-SEZ-CMB-HKG-NRT

BA were indeed running VC10s on some of the Australia services at the time - Sunday's BA745 left Brisbane at 1530 via Darwin, SIngapore, Calcutta, Doha, Damascus and arrived in London at 1020 on Monday.

[Bergerie1]

I remember those VC10 itineraries so well. The triangular route from London out to Hong Kong via the ME and India and then back via Seychelles and Afican destinations to London (or the other way round) gave us some of the best flying ever. So many different places with time off in each and so many aeronautical challenges along the way. But those days are long gone. Take a look at this:- https://vc10.net/Memories/OperatingAfrica.html#African_routes

[ZFT]

The BA timetable from 1 January 1974 - so the first one - has a special advert in it "Fastest from Johannesburg to London. BOAC's one-stop 747. Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday." The route was obviously a fairly early upgrade to the 747.
.
I'm pretty sure i flew from JNB to/from LHR in early 1972 so 74s were on the route earlier than 1974

[VictorGolf]

I'm with you ZFT. I flew from Heathrow to Nairobi on BA020, a 747 G-AWNI, on 4th April 1972. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked by the interior spce on the thing and this was 51 years ago. Amazing.

[WHBM]

I'm with you ZFT. I flew from Heathrow to Nairobi on BA020, a 747 G-AWNI, on 4th April 1972. I remember being absolutely gobsmacked by the interior space on the thing and this was 51 years ago. Amazing.
Yes, BOAC had 11 747s by then, they came in fairly rapidly, although both 707s and VC-10s lasted on in passenger service for the best part of another 10 years. The Jo'burg flights look a bit inefficient for utilisation, night flights both ways, but by efficient scheduling the early arrival at Heathrow can be sent out on a morning Transatlantic, while one of the later arrivals can form the evening departure to Africa.

There must nevertheless have been some performance limitation on the route on the initial 747s, for when the more capable Rolls-Royce powered 747-200Bs came along in 1978 this was one of their first routes, interleaved with the new California routes to LAX and SFO, whose round trip cycle time is just over 24 hours, so it was LAX on Monday morning, SFO on Tuesday afternoon, JNB on Wednesday evening, back the next night and repeat to LAX on the Friday, needing four aircraft.