Military aircraft quiz

[West Coast]

Was asked this and failed miserably…..

Without aid of reference (sorry Google warriors) can you name the only military aircraft where variants of it were intended to be flown as a glider, using piston engines, turboprop engines and jet engines. Not all at the same time, but sometimes as a mix.
The key word is intended as I’m not sure the glider version ever went aloft, but it was built.

[Vzlet]

Fairchild C-123 Provider.

[ehwatezedoing]

C-47!? Although I'm pretty sure no jet version were ever proposed :p

[India Four Two]

I'll vote for the C-123 as well.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x595/chase_xg_20_glider_usaf_50_7d1d0293168f25e57d5f5c781463b9ae9 6702b8f.jpg
Chase XG-20 glider, which was converted to the XC-123A prototype.

[Old-Duffer]

Hamilcar?

[Coochycool]

I instinctively thought of the Me321.

There were certainly glider, prop and RATO versions. Though turboprop I doubt!

[treadigraph]

I also immediately thought of the C-123...

[chevvron]

Armstrong - Whitworth AW 52

[sandringham1]

I go for the Chase XCG-18a Glider, that became the YC-122B with piston engines, the fuselage of one was then used in the construction of the Hiller X-18 Tilt-wing VTOL turbo-prop with a jet engine for pitch control.

[treadigraph]

Sandringham, the XC-123 also flew with four J47s and the C-132T was a project to re-engine Thai aircraft with Allison T-56s which didn't go beyond a prototype conversion.

[JohnDixson]

Hello West Coast. Another C-123 capability discovered quite some time ago in Thailand. Chiang Mai is a joint civil/Thai AF base in North Thailand. Doing a UH-60 marketing tour, we were there to provide a demonstration flight to a member of the Royal Family who was a pilot. Following the flight, the base commander invited us to lunch at their O-Club auxiliary site right at the field. They had taken one of their C-123’s, completely redid the exterior to looking like new, then turned the cabin into the neatest air conditioned cafe. Another thing well done by the 123.

[Vzlet]

Because of its glider origins, all fuel for the piston engines is contained in nacelle extensions rather than in tanks within the wing structure.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51459161152_53bc6a8d4d_c.jpg

[SASless]

It was not uncommon for one C-123 to "jump start" a second 123 that had Starter problems on a Piston Engine by providing sufficient prop wash to windmill the recalcitrant engine to do the equivalent of an In-Flight wind milling start up.

Short field takeoffs at times would result in liftoffs and initial climb below Vmc airspeed.

I spent many an hour flying helicopters with a former Air America Pilot who flew both helicopters and airplanes for that "Airline".....including the 123.

[West Coast]

It was not uncommon for one C-123 to "jump start" a second 123 that had Starter problems on a Piston Engine by providing sufficient prop wash to windmill the recalcitrant engine to do the equivalent of an In-Flight wind milling start up.

Short field takeoffs at times would result in liftoffs and initial climb below Vmc airspeed.

I spent many an hour flying helicopters with a former Air America Pilot who flew both helicopters and airplanes for that "Airline".....including the 123.

Not uncommon for C130s to buddy start another 130 either.

[West Coast]

Because of its glider origins, all fuel for the piston engines is contained in nacelle extensions rather than in tanks within the wing structure.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51459161152_53bc6a8d4d_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mpgDNq)

Somewhat inconvenient for whoever got stuck fueling the ship.

[treadigraph]

They had taken one of their C-123’s, completely redid the exterior to looking like new, then turned the cabin into the neatest air conditioned cafe. Another thing well done by the 123.

And how was it fuelled? Gas? Electric? Wood? Coal? ;)

I'd forgotten that the later C-123s also had a pair of J85s fitted.

(Not sure I've ever seen a C-123 flying; convinced I saw one heading into Northolt back in the 1970s while I was playing cricket at school - definitely not a Pembroke - but recently Chevvron made the very plausible suggestion that it was probably a Trader off a nearby carrier.)

[chevvron]

And how was it fuelled? Gas? Electric? Wood? Coal? ;)

I'd forgotten that the later C-123s also had a pair of J85s fitted.

(Not sure I've ever seen a C-123 flying; convinced I saw one heading into Northolt back in the 1970s while I was playing cricket at school - definitely not a Pembroke - but recently Chevvron made the very plausible suggestion that it was probably a Trader off a nearby carrier.)
Frequently used to get C123s (we referred to them as either 'Providers' or 'Avitrucs') in/out of Bovingdon in the '50s and early '60s.

[DaveReidUK]

Frequently used to get C123s (we referred to them as either 'Providers' or 'Avitrucs') in/out of Bovingdon in the '50s and early '60s.


Avitruc was the manufacturer's name for the aircraft, wisely ignored by the DoD, who designated it as the Provider in military service.

[pattern_is_full]

I spent many an hour flying helicopters with a former Air America Pilot who flew both helicopters and airplanes for that "Airline".....including the 123.

Yah - and two Providers played starring roles in the film Air America, including as a hiding place for a Turbo Porter under attack. ;)

(Don't ask me why the Turbo Porter occasionally produces piston-engine sounds - It's Hollywood).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvBPbdg4jsc

[ShyTorque]

Not uncommon for C130s to buddy start another 130 either.

I once saw a C130 with only three functional engines having its fourth one being unsuccessfully “bump started” by very fast taxying up and down the runway. It subsequently took off on three. Rather than stay at the departure airfield, it was finally declared unserviceable at Nassau.

[ExAscoteer2]

Perfectly valid technique in Albert.

3 Engined Ferry T/O required a sign off by Group however.

[West Coast]

Fairchild C-123 Provider.

You are of course correct.

[KiloB]

And there is the classic story around about a C47 being started ‘Briggs ‘n Stratton’ style, with a rope around the prop hub!

[megan]

And there is the classic story around about a C47 being started ‘Briggs ‘n Stratton’ style, with a rope around the prop hubStandard back up procedure, certainly during the war, even to be found in some flight manuals.once saw a C130 with only three functional engines having its fourth one being unsuccessfully “bump started” by very fast taxying up and down the runwayAlternative if you had a second airframe available was for him to park in front and use his prop wash to spin up your dead engine.

[India Four Two]

I went inside an airworthy C-123 at Oshkosh in 2017, but didn't see it fly. It's a big aircraft.

Slight thread drift but one of the best Vietnam era books I've read is "Flying Through Midnight", concerning C-123 operations during the secret war in Laos:


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/476x720/screenshot_2023_03_26_at_21_23_13_3b6a6dafe5abe78fa3829133da 6256931c78535c.png

The key section of the book is a gripping description of a night-time emergency diversion, with no lights, navaids or comms, descending through jagged limestone mountains to land at the secret CIA airstrip at Long Tieng (Lima Site 20A):


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1264x844/screenshot_2023_03_26_at_23_21_29_973d67d84ad14cafe7f265eb82 4932ddc1e6691f.png

[NutLoose]

Standard back up procedure, certainly during the war, even to be found in some flight manuals.Alternative if you had a second airframe available was for him to park in front and use his prop wash to spin up your dead engine.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x390/image_846de678f27d484c29b361a940cc8d67f99882ca.png

[SASless]

Once saw a 130 do a three engine take off from a SF Camp next to the Cambodian Border....ground fire took out the number one engine during the landing.....and without a doubt had it remained on the ground for any length of time it would have been destroyed.

It departed at a fairly flat manner with some noticeable yaw seen but went on to a major airfield for repair.

It used every inch of the runway and was some admirable airmanship to watch.


Perhaps the ultimate C-123 story is one that occurred during the evacuation of the Khan Doc SF Camp as it was surrounded and ultimately overrun by NVA Forces.

To close the circle.....Mort the USAF Combat Controller mentioned in the article was the last Man out of Khan Duc having been one of three Combat Controllers mistakenly inserted there at the very end of the evacuation.

Mort was a scuba diving and beer drinking buddy of mine when I was working in the Philippines.

He never mentioned his experience there until one. of his Team Mates from Clark AFB told me about it and I asked him to tell me his story.

It was an amazing thing that happened that day.

My Chinook Unit lost an aircraft there and that story is an interesting one as well.

The C-123 Pilot received the Medal of Honor for his rescue of the three Combat Controllers.

There are some detailed accounts of the Khan Doc incident that bear reading.


https://www.littlerock.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/358046/kham-duc/

[JohnDixson]

Sorry, Treadigraph. No need for fuel-it was a “Ground Cafe/O-Club Extension”.

[Vzlet]

A Keith Ferris painting of the event:
https://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Top-10-famous-rescues-lead.jpg

[212man]

I went inside an airworthy C-123 at Oshkosh in 2017, but didn't see it fly. It's a big aircraft.

Slight thread drift but one of the best Vietnam era books I've read is "Flying Through Midnight", concerning C-123 operations during the secret war in Laos:


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/476x720/screenshot_2023_03_26_at_21_23_13_3b6a6dafe5abe78fa3829133da 6256931c78535c.png

The key section of the book is a gripping description of a night-time emergency diversion, with no lights, navaids or comms, descending through jagged limestone mountains to land at the secret CIA airstrip at Long Tieng (Lima Site 20A):


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1264x844/screenshot_2023_03_26_at_23_21_29_973d67d84ad14cafe7f265eb82 4932ddc1e6691f.png
15 degrees change of runway alignment might have made life a bit easier!

[Asturias56]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x390/image_846de678f27d484c29b361a940cc8d67f99882ca.png
Somewhere there's a pic of a whole herd of passengers doing that on a DC-2 somewhere in the Dutch East indies - might have been in the London -Sydney Air race

[Herod]

Back in the day, at Habilayn (up-country from Aden) the Beverley would charge down the runway on three, unfeather and start the dead one, come to a shuddering halt in a great cloud of dust, then smugly taxy back, load the troops and depart. I never flew Beverleys, buy it was fun to watch.

[bugged on the right]

Read this thread and logged in immediately to the South American river bookstore to buy Flying through Midnight. Only available in hardcover at forty two quid. Anyone know about availability in paperback?

[BEagle]

Try World of Books https://www.wob.com/en-gb . When I looked earlier, they had one copy available......at £5!

[albatross]

Try this site: It is my first “Go To” in my demented quest for Aviation or Maritime books.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&tn=Flying%20Through%20Midnight&an=John%20T%20Halliday

[bugged on the right]

Thanks BEagle. Got it.

[India Four Two]

Read this thread and logged in immediately to the South American river bookstore to buy Flying through Midnight.

Please come back and tell us what you thought of the book. It's many years since I read it. I need to dig out my copy and read it again.

PS Lots of cheap used copies on http://abebooks.com

PPS I see albatross beat me to it!

[sycamore]

Twin Pioneers had a long pole,with a hoop on the end,for turning the prop,minimising `hydraulicing` before starting,sometimes used for starting,but `Brakedwell` would be the man to tell of `derring-do`...

[ORAC]

You can download it here - free trial offer.

https://masterpdf.pro/download/4330427-flying-through-midnight-halliday-john-t

[megan]

Ben Tre Thai C-123 early morning damp PSP one prop failed to go into reverse scratch one of the five of our aircraft parked along side the strip crew sun bathing on the Huey roof made a hasty exit stage right when they saw it coming

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/922x407/c_123_f0fc6dfa72095ee4dd25c29effd4d71c4ae4b5e1.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/922x407/c_12_c4de55c60ca645d87428b01e40f627520a4a0193.png

[BBadanov]

Avitruc was the manufacturer's name for the aircraft, wisely ignored by the DoD, who designated it as the Provider in military service.

In SVN it used USAF callsign "Bookie", so was generally known as a "Bookiebird">

[brakedwell]

Twin Pioneers had a long pole,with a hoop on the end,for turning the prop,minimising `hydraulicing` before starting,sometimes used for starting,but `Brakedwell` would be the man to tell of `derring-do`...

We didn't have a pole on 152 Sqn, just a looped piece of rope plus a couple of "senior" army officers to do the manual work! I used this system about half a dozen times and we started the engine successfully every time.

[stevef]

Somewhere there's a pic of a whole herd of passengers doing that on a DC-2 somewhere in the Dutch East indies - might have been in the London -Sydney Air race

A lot of DC3s/C47s/Dakotas, call them what you will, had inertia starters on the R1830s, which were basically electrically-operated motors winding up a heavy flywheel. When they sounded like the time was right, you'd move the switch from Energise to Mesh and the flywheel gear would engage the crankshaft via a clutch and the prop would turn a few blades as the crew fiddled with the booster pump, primer, mags and mixture to induce combustion noise and clouds of smoke. There was a back-up option of using a detachable low-geared manual-start handle assembly if the electric motor failed, which involved unfastening a cowling panel, mounting the thing in its position, winding the flywheel up and pulling a 'mesh' cable on command from the cockpit. Usually the %#@£?* thing wouldn't start and you'd have to repeat the process, which certainly warmed you up on a cold day. The inertia starters were gradually replaced by direct drive units from the mid-80s, which saved all that palaver but were less pleasing to the ear. :)
Had the same inertia starter system on the An2 (the engine was a direct copy of the Wright Cyclone) and a hand-starter on a Stearman PT17, One Dak pilot told me they'd used the prop-dome rope trick using a Mini instead of humans to pull start an engine!

[ShyTorque]

Perfectly valid technique in Albert.

3 Engined Ferry T/O required a sign off by Group however.

Yes, I was aware. Just as well that the AOC was on board, but i don’t know if he physically signed it off or not because having tried to get the fourth engine started for some time they never taxied back in. ;)

On another occasion I was verbally authorised by the AOC to depart on one engine in a twin engined helicopter, but that’s a story best not told in public.

[Geriaviator]

I think it's the Khormaksar thread which contains accounts of a Land-Rover and rope around the spinner being used to start a TwinPin which played up while delivering stuff up-country. Worked very well and seems to have been (unofficial) procedure if no trolley-acc available.

[bugged on the right]

Just finished Flying through Midnight. A cracking story, very revealing regarding methods of dealing with stress. The descriptions of Desktop and others ring true, you would like to think that your superiors would have provided top cover but not so sure now. The REMFs all there, collecting flying pay and no doubt medals, flying on safe sorties. I thought the final story about the arrival at Long Tien was a bit supernatural and wondered if the book was fictional. The story of Wiley's limousine is classic.

[Cornish Jack]

The C123s used in Laos were just one type in the most 'mixed bag' of aircraft types I have ever come across in one organisation's inventory. Vientiane was a hive of activity with constant re-supply flights using C46s, 123s, Helio Courers, PilatusPorters, Dornier 27 and 28s(?), a civilianised Hudson, Beech !8s with Air America, plus helicopters and other types involved in local 'businesses'. The reference to 'interesting' approaches to Laos airfields could have included a local Ex-French Marine (self-taught pilot !) who provided 'unusual cargo' transport to remote strips in a Beech 18, the approach being made from a known mountain peak above cloud descending on a timed heading and descent rate to a valley cloud break !! It was most certainly 'cowboy country' including one ex Zantop (?) Airways captain who wore the essential low slung belt with a pair of pearl-handled revolvers. We made one of our regular visits using a 'borrowed' Twin-Pin instead of the Devon and gave a demo to the Air America people - who seemed impressed.
John le Carre's "The Honourable Schoolboy" mentions at least one character from the time - the manager of the Constellation 'hotel' Maurice Cavallieri (sp?)

[treadigraph]

I believe Boeing 307 Stratoliners were still operating in Laos into the early 1970s.

[NutLoose]

A lot of DC3s/C47s/Dakotas, call them what you will,

You have missed the DC2 and a 1/2 off your list. ;)

Read the story, it's a fascinating tale of strapping a DC3 wing under another DC2 then flying it to the site and bolting it onto the DC2 to form the DC2 1/2 as the wing was considerably longer, then flying it out. Link at the bottom.

Woody hurriedly led his crew and passengers into a wooded area away from the airplane. Sure enough, the Japs spotted the airplane and immediately started bombing it. A number of bombs were dropped; one a hundred (100) Kilo struck the right wing, went through it and exploded under the wing. Needless to say, the wing was blown to jagged splinters. The rest of the airplane was also badly damaged. As a matter of fact, hardly a square foot of it escaped extensive damage.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/566x336/image_5e36ee332bd285390194a31896715c65737c5313.png

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/494x400/image_0d56181510f212d12eed20350710444fd5287c74.png

https://cnac.org/aircraft02.htm

[megan]

I believe Boeing 307 Stratoliners were still operating in Laos into the early 1970Arrived in Tan Son Nhut airport Saigon September 1970 to see a pristine polished metal 307 on the tarmac, a number of them operated in the area apparently, one is noted as ditching in the Mekong River in March 1975 while on a flight from Hong Kong to Vientiane.

[Cornish Jack]

Megan and Treadders - the 307 was operatring out of Tan Son Nhut in 61 - 64. I only ever saw that one in the Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam area.