RAF Chinook pilot jailed for sexual assault

[NutLoose]

Terrible, that poor women.

The court heard that the assault took place as Bayliss’s victim tried to get away from him when she saw his wedding ring.

It was then that Bayliss is said to have thrust his hand up her skirt and sexually assaulted her.

She said the attack, which she reported to the police the following day, left her feeling “filthy and disgusting”.

However Bayliss denied the offence of assault by penetration and was said to have told a probation worker that he had no need to assault his victim because he was more attractive than her.

The victim said the RAF had made her feel “ostracised” after she was ordered to work from home when she raised concerns that their paths might cross due to their line of work, while her attacker was allowed to continue his duties as normal.

Six months after the assault she tried to take her own life.

Assistant Judge Advocate General Edward Legard said the board were troubled by Bayliss’s “absence of remorse or understanding”.

“There has been an element of victim blaming and minimisation of your actions and you have shown an unwarranted sense of entitlement,” he said.

Judge Advocate Legard added: “You said you would be able to get more girls than she could men, which displays a worrying attitude towards women in general.”

The court found he posed a risk of harm to adult females due to the attitude shown in the wake of his offence.

The judge added: “This was a betrayal of the values and standards of the Royal Air Force and tarnishes the reputation of the officer corps.

“You wear the insignia on your sleeve for a reason, which is to uphold the highest standards of integrity and to lead by example.”
‘I felt like a burden to my family’In a personal statement read by the victim via a video link, she said she was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and suffered from nightmares about the attack.

She said: “I felt like a burden to my family and friends and due to the impact of the sexual assault, I attempted suicide in June when I felt I could no longer cope.”

She added: “The only glimmer of a silver lining is that I hope this has taught Oliver Bayliss that he cannot behave in that way.”

Bayliss had his sentence reduced from the two year starting point to 18 months, partly due to his distinguished career, which included active service in Afghanistan, Iraq and West Africa.

He was told he would serve half his sentence – in a civilian jail after being cleared through the military prison at Colchester – before he would be eligible for release.

A tearful Bayliss, of Harrogate, North Yorks, shook his head as he was marched from the court after being dismissed from the RAF in disgrace.

Emma Norton, solicitor and director of the Centre for Military Justice, said the victim’s feeling of being ostracised by the air force was not unusual for servicewomen who report sexual assault in the Armed Forces.

She said: “The experiences of this woman after she reported an extremely serious sexual assault seem to reflect those of all the servicewomen we are supporting.”


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/raf-squadron-leader-jailed-for-sexually-assaulting-fellow-officer/ar-AA18ZOAQ?ocid=winpstoreapp&cvid=202c3659e3a4481a9ab3ee1307a97d2e&ei=18

[air pig]

The sentence IMHO is not long enough as he will out in 9 months. The experience of a couple of days at MCTC and a rule 42 prisoner at a HMP probably Colchester will be an experience like no other he has ever experienced His life as he knew it is now over.

One hopes the lady who is the victim here is fully supported by her peers and CoC, now the case is over and in the future to help her recover.

[MPN11]

What a tragic and stupid end to a career. I have no sympathy for Bayliss.

[ExAscoteer2]

That sentence is pathetic and obscene. Indicative that attitudes towards women in the RAF have not changed in the last 30 years.

[Pontius Navigator]

As it was all done within military justice but is now in the more public domain others may now come forward.

[skydiver69]

It seems odd that his sentence was reduced due to an aspect of his miltary service. That seems like an anachronism unless it left him with PTSD for example, which then affected his beheavour towards the victim. If it didn't then it seems like it would add insult to injury.

[HeliLad22]

I was on the same RAF squadron as this guy. He was an arrogant, cocky, self obsessed individual, he thought the world revolved around him.

When this came to light it did not surprise me at all based on what I know of him.

Agree with the comments above that his sentence is not long enough, however, in reality his personal sentence will be longer. Loss of job, loss of military pension, loss of wife, loss of credibility, his name forever searchable on Google - what a fool.

[ShyTorque]

That sentence is pathetic and obscene. Indicative that attitudes towards women in the RAF have not changed in the last 30 years.

I don’t know what you were doing thirty years ago but during my time in the RAF (I was there, but in my final year) we certainly didn’t sexually assault women.

[air pig]

That sentence is pathetic and obscene. Indicative that attitudes towards women in the RAF have not changed in the last 30 years.

The sentence given to the criminal Baylis will be within the Sentencing Council guidelines for that offence and what was reported to the AJAG and the panel by the defence regarding such things as psychology and probation reports. The sentence of outside those guidelines needs to have justification as the sentence maybe appealed at a later stage.

[ExAscoteer2]

The sentence given to the criminal Baylis will be within the Sentencing Council guidelines

As I said, disgusting and pathetic and indicative of attitudes to women.

[air pig]

As I said, disgusting and pathetic and indicative of attitudes to women.

That is a problem for the sentencing council not the AJAG, they followed what was written.

I agree that it is pathetic.

[Timelord]

I don’t know what you were doing thirty years ago but during my time in the RAF (I was there, but in my final year) we certainly didn’t sexually assault women.

I agree. I Was there and I object to the view that we were all cavemen in those days. In my view men treated women, we even called them ladies, with much more respect than is apparent today.

[eko4me]

I agree. I Was there and I object to the view that we were all cavemen in those days. In my view men treated women, we even called them ladies, with much more respect than is apparent today.

Thank goodness, most men (I hope) are gentlemen.

[langleybaston]

Might this be [I make so daring] a part conssequence of the equality sought so earnestly? I hope not, but many men no longer see women as frail ladies, to be protected, given precedence through doors, given seats on transport, and walked on the inside, away from the road edge?

Were the old blokes here the last generation to have these simple courtesies drummed into them?

I have known women bridling at being deferred to, demanding equality. Perhap the Law of Unintended Consequences is working.

NB. This is not the argument "she was all tarted uo, short skirts, and flashing her knockers, so she was asking for it"
Much more subtle than that.

[Professor Plum]

Might this be [I make so daring] a part conssequence of the equality sought so earnestly? I hope not, but many men no longer see women as frail ladies, to be protected, given precedence through doors, given seats on transport, and walked on the inside, away from the road edge?

Were the old blokes here the last generation to have these simple courtesies drummed into them?

c0ck!

the individual concerned quite rightly is getting what he deserves.

are you tarnishing everyone my generation with the same brush?

edited to add that the vast majority of the very talented and fine ladies that i have the privilege to serve with don’t want to be referred to ​​​​​​as frail ladies

[air pig]

c0ck!

the individual concerned quite rightly is getting what he deserves.

are you tarnishing everyone my generation with the same brush?

edited to add that the vast majority of the very talented and fine ladies that i have the privilege to serve with don’t want to be referred to

I would love to know the thoughts of OC 2 Group or 83 EAG being described as frail. I suspect certain part of anatomy would be missing for anybody doing that.

[Professor Plum]

Air pig,

Amen! Absolutely!

[Carl Spaatz]

"The court heard that the assault took place as Bayliss’s victim tried to get away from him WHEN SHE SAW HIS WEDDING RING."

Huh?

[Timelord]

Without doubt women were patronised more in those days, but they were assaulted less.

[twpsaesneg]

Without doubt women were patronised more in those days, but they were assaulted less.

Weren't they though? Or did they just not say anything because it was "drummed into them" to expect to be groped or more as part and parcel of life?

[rattman]

Without doubt women were patronised more in those days, but they were assaulted less.


Nope just didn't report it. Even back in the 80's reporting sexual assault as a women in the forces was death to your career, not much different now

[Timelord]

Nope just didn't report it. Even back in the 80's reporting sexual assault as a women in the forces was death to your career, not much different now

I knew that would be the response but I am really not so sure. The behaviour reported on RN submarines, in the met and in this case is like nothing I ever heard of in “my day” and I had a pretty good cross section of friends, male and female, of all ranks.

[Toadstool]

I knew that would be the response but I am really not so sure. The behaviour reported on RN submarines, in the met and in this case is like nothing I ever heard of in “my day” and I had a pretty good cross section of friends, male and female, of all ranks.

You should hear the stories of those “older” ladies, friends of mine, who joined up with me in the 80s and all of us currently serving. Every single one of them were sexually assaulted, and misogyny and sexism was rife. None of them reported it because that was the culture then. Glad to say that this is definitely not the case now. Any behaviour like that, previously “accepted” is totally unacceptable now. Try treating “frail” ladies like that now and watch your career vanish.

[Timelord]

Ok, if you say so. I must have spent 30 years in an ivory tower. We can agree however, that the fact that it is not tolerated in the military now is a good thing. Now for the Met!

[bugged on the right]

Might this be [I make so daring] a part conssequence of the equality sought so earnestly? I hope not, but many men no longer see women as frail ladies, to be protected, given precedence through doors, given seats on transport, and walked on the inside, away from the road edge?

Were the old blokes here the last generation to have these simple courtesies drummed into them?

I have known women bridling at being deferred to, demanding equality. Perhap the Law of Unintended Consequences is working.

NB. This is not the argument "she was all tarted uo, short skirts, and flashing her knockers, so she was asking for it"
Much more subtle than that.



Once when a group of rowdy teenagers approached I would cross the road unless there was a girl with them.
I felt that a female would be a moderating influence on the boys. Now I think girls have become boys and boys have become girls and I cross the road. I'm a bit old fashioned and am fiercely protective of female relatives.
I believe that this Sqn Ldr should be a guest at Colchester as well. They know a lot about custodial hospitality.

[Loulou92]

Might this be [I make so daring] a part conssequence of the equality sought so earnestly? I hope not, but many men no longer see women as frail ladies, to be protected, given precedence through doors, given seats on transport, and walked on the inside, away from the road edge?

Were the old blokes here the last generation to have these simple courtesies drummed into them?

I have known women bridling at being deferred to, demanding equality. Perhap the Law of Unintended Consequences is working.

NB. This is not the argument "she was all tarted uo, short skirts, and flashing her knockers, so she was asking for it"
Much more subtle than that.


what are you implying here? This has nothing to do with women wanted equality. It’s about a f*cked up, entitled, little man. There’s no justification.

[Bob Viking]

For what it’s worth I can see where LB was coming from. We should be allowed to question why a seemingly intelligent individual has committed such a heinous act and try to work out if it is indicative of a wider societal problem. I don’t think we need to brand LB a misogynist dinosaur just for asking a question.

For the record I think the the ex-Officer is an absolute disgrace and the sentence is far too lenient. He seemed to be suffering from some sort of God complex and his statements are abhorrent. He has brought shame on the entire RAF and the men especially. I shudder to think I could have been surrounded by such monsters when I was serving.

BV

[air pig]

Once when a group of rowdy teenagers approached I would cross the road unless there was a girl with them.
I felt that a female would be a moderating influence on the boys. Now I think girls have become boys and boys have become girls and I cross the road. I'm a bit old fashioned and am fiercely protective of female relatives.
I believe that this Sqn Ldr should be a guest at Colchester as well. They know a lot about custodial hospitality.

Only for a couple of days as he's processed and discharged, then as a rule 42 prisoner in an HMP, he won't know what's hit him both mentally and maybe physically.

[rattman]

You should hear the stories of those “older” ladies, friends of mine, who joined up with me in the 80s and all of us currently serving. Every single one of them were sexually assaulted, and misogyny and sexism was rife. None of them reported it because that was the culture then. Glad to say that this is definitely not the case now. Any behaviour like that, previously “accepted” is totally unacceptable now. Try treating “frail” ladies like that now and watch your career vanish.

Yeah cant speak for the UK military but in australia know several who sexually assualted and 1 was raped. 1 specifically she was an nursing officer was sexually assulted by an NCO and private. Soon as she reported it, she was transferred to posting across the country, the soldiers in question were put on a plane to afghanistan away from civilian law enforncements. Bad part for her she was doing a medical degree and the new posting didn't have a uni for her to study at. She left the military a got a ton of compensation (took the military to court under whistleblower legislation), of the a 2 guys the SGT got busted to a corporal, the private was discharged for drug use before any charges were laid

[rattman]

For what it’s worth I can see where LB was coming from. We should be allowed to question why a seemingly intelligent individual has committed such a heinous act and try to work out if it is indicative of a wider societal problem. I don’t think we need to brand LB a misogynist dinosaur just for asking a question.


Yes there is but random people on internet claiming that its the womens fault because she wants equality is pretty repugnent. If you want to find out theres lots of acutal reports going to physcology of rapists and wife beaters. They have a lot of the same characteristic, these are made by actual proffessionals. Intelligence has nothing to do with it in the end, intelligence males them harder to catch

[charliegolf]

Nothing else that LB has posted has ever pointed to such a thing.

CG

[stevef]

Nothing else that LB has posted has ever pointed to such a thing. CG
Quite right.
He comes across as a thoroughly decent human being who doesn't litter his intelligent posts with grammatical and spelling errors.

[olster]

Unfortunately pprune is like other social media sites. Jaw dropping personal insults with no understanding of nuance or differing perspective. I also have only read reasonable and well constructed posts from LB. For the avoidance of doubt I have no support for the individual who has committed a horrible crime and has received the justice he deserved.

[trim it out]

I was on the same RAF squadron as this guy. He was an arrogant, cocky, self obsessed individual, he thought the world revolved around him.

When this came to light it did not surprise me at all based on what I know of him.

Agree with the comments above that his sentence is not long enough, however, in reality his personal sentence will be longer. Loss of job, loss of military pension, loss of wife, loss of credibility, his name forever searchable on Google - what a fool.
It is an indicator of the culture prevalent in the military, that these people walk among us largely unchallenged. Continuing to be promoted and put in posts that one would think are reserved for top tier individuals.

Maybe the saying "all the good ones get out as corporals and captains" is as relevant as it was when I first heard it nearly 20 years ago.

[NutLoose]

What got me in it all was

Bayliss had his sentence reduced from the two year starting point to 18 months, partly due to his distinguished career, which included active service in Afghanistan, Iraq and West Africa.

What about her distinguished service, after all the RAF is not just one person, it takes a team to operate and her service should have balanced out his service and his sentence should not have been reduced because of it. Though it was a pitiful sentence in my eyes to start with.

[Jimlad1]

If you think that 'back in my day'women were not sexually assaulted then you are very very wrong. The Atherton report is a daming indictment of over 30yrs of military culture to women and is an extremely uncomfortable read.

[NutLoose]

I know it’s the mail, but more on it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11893785/RAF-squadron-leader-serve-nine-months-sex-assault-led-victim-try-kill-herself.html

[WillNorris81]

Without doubt women were patronised more in those days, but they were assaulted less.


I know many RAF women who were assaulted, it just wasn’t reported in the main. Remember the bar “game” involving drunk bloke biting a serving woman’s backside and hanging on as long as they could? I saw one female aircrew officer walk up to the crowd laughing after another assault of a work colleague and quietly said “ and if this happened to your mother, sister, partner, would it be so funny then?”.
she then reported the assault to the RAF police, it never happened again in that mess.

[langleybaston]

I know it’s the mail, but more on it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11893785/RAF-squadron-leader-serve-nine-months-sex-assault-led-victim-try-kill-herself.html

A man like me with a very strong-willed wife, three graduate daughters lall retired], five graduate granddaughters, one great-grand daughter and a mongrel bitch ..................

......................has no chance of retaining chauvinist thoughts.

[Timelord]

I know many RAF women who were assaulted, it just wasn’t reported in the main. Remember the bar “game” involving drunk bloke biting a serving woman’s backside and hanging on as long as they could? I saw one female aircrew officer walk up to the crowd laughing after another assault of a work colleague and quietly said “ and if this happened to your mother, sister, partner, would it be so funny then?”.
she then reported the assault to the RAF police, it never happened again in that mess.

No, I don’t remember. What era was this? Because I can honestly say that in my service, 1972-2000, mostly fast jet, mostly front line, I never witnessed or heard of any such moronic behaviour.

I would add that on my OCTU a fellow cadet was put on review because he had sworn in the hearing of a female cadet. Very different times!

[NutLoose]

The only thing that touched the inside thighs of the WRAF at St Athan during our training was our pyjamas as they would beg a pair off us as they were the last course to get Hairy Mary’s and at the height of summer tights were the last thing they wanted to wear under them.

I cannot think of one in my time that was assaulted, we worked and played together as one big happy family.

[langleybaston]

Perhaps "men behaving badly" is more or less a nasty constant ratio, and we are now much more aware because more and more women have the courage to report it. We had quite senior gropers in the Met Office, but only famous when all participants/ spouses had retired. The wives / daughters dealt with them at the time by pinching and avoidance, and did not tell their men in case [as was likely]. there was bloodshed. It is only in retirement that I heard all the stories.
The big improvement in sanctions has been helped by the ME TOO movement.

9 months inside is totally inadequate, because one purpose of prison is deterrence. He should have been awarded an exemplary maximum.

[air pig]

Perhaps "men behaving badly" is more or less a nasty constant ratio, and we are now much more aware because more and more women have the courage to report it. We had quite senior gropers in the Met Office, but only famous when all participants/ spouses had retired. The wives / daughters dealt with them at the time by pinching and avoidance, and did not tell their men in case [as was likely]. there was bloodshed. It is only in retirement that I heard all the stories.
The big improvement in sanctions has been helped by the ME TOO movement.

9 months inside is totally inadequate, because one purpose of prison is deterrence. He should have been awarded an exemplary maximum.

The maximum was probably 2 years according to the guidelines and as I said about anything outside that would need justification, plus deservedly he has lost his career and his family. Nine months will be a reduction for good behaviour inside, but every day will feel like a year as he is a sex offender, lower than the sewers in a prison in their hierarchy.

[stevef]

Obviously not intended to apply to the services but I once had a fill-in supermarket warehouse job and it was the other way around. More than three or four girls together turned into physical and verbal sexual molestation pack driven by bravado (like unzipping your jeans when they'd ask you to get stock down from a shelf), which didn't really bother me because I'd say: "Alright, keep going." It took the wind out of their sails, they never did, we got on normally after that and they'd find a more frightened 'younger' victim. The male staff certainly wouldn't have tried that stunt on them though.
But that was in the 70s, when even then it was normal to simply avoid well-known homosexual predators (like the scoutmaster in the village I lived in and a nearby Catholic priest) rather than report them for their behaviour.

[ShyTorque]

I know many RAF women who were assaulted, it just wasn’t reported in the main. Remember the bar “game” involving drunk bloke biting a serving woman’s backside and hanging on as long as they could? I saw one female aircrew officer walk up to the crowd laughing after another assault of a work colleague and quietly said “ and if this happened to your mother, sister, partner, would it be so funny then?”.
she then reported the assault to the RAF police, it never happened again in that mess.

I never saw that game being played in any mess of which was a member, or visited for that matter.

[WillNorris81]

No, I don’t remember. What era was this? Because I can honestly say that in my service, 1972-2000, mostly fast jet, mostly front line, I never witnessed or heard of any such moronic behaviour.

I would add that on my OCTU a fellow cadet was put on review because he had sworn in the hearing of a female cadet. Very different times!

mid to late 80’s through to the end of the 90’s.

[downsizer]

The topic of assaults and sexual harassment came up on a recruiting course I was on in 2013.....mainly as to female applicants perceptions around joining the mil and why they wouldn't. I'd been in over 20 years at this point and opined that it wasn't an issue and I'd never seen it. Most (including me) of the male officers and SNCOs stated they'd never seen any such issue and it wasn't happening.

Every single female officer and SNCO said they'd either been assaulted in some way, been subjected to a lesser unwanted behavior or knew a colleague that had. They made the point that it often wasn't happening where we would see it.....unwanted late night visitors to mess/barrack rooms, unwanted handsy-ness late on at social events, when working alone with the perp, etc, etc....

I'm inclined to believe them, to be honest.

[Timelord]

Oh, I absolutely believe them.
My question is about whether this is a relatively recent aberration or did it always happen and I just missed it?

[langleybaston]

The topic of assaults and sexual harassment came up on a recruiting course I was on in 2013.....mainly as to female applicants perceptions around joining the mil and why they wouldn't. I'd been in over 20 years at this point and opined that it wasn't an issue and I'd never seen it. Most (including me) of the male officers and SNCOs stated they'd never seen any such issue and it wasn't happening.

Every single female officer and SNCO said they'd either been assaulted in some way, been subjected to a lesser unwanted behavior or knew a colleague that had. They made the point that it often wasn't happening where we would see it.....unwanted late night visitors to mess/barrack rooms, unwanted handsy-ness late on at social events, when working alone with the perp, etc, etc....

I'm inclined to believe them, to be honest.

Spectacular incident at a Ball at Churchill RAF ARMY Mess JHQ c 1995 ..... I missed it but all present witnessed. Wg Cdr dancing with Fl Lts wife was having a mighty grope.
Flt Lt punched him, blood and snot everywhere.
Next day both were off the station. Officially it never happened.

[Union Jack]

Spectacular incident at a Ball at Churchill RAF ARMY Mess JHQ c 1995 ..... I missed it but all present witnessed. Wg Cdr dancing with Fl Lts wife was having a mighty grope.
Flt Lt punched him, blood and snot everywhere.
Next day both were off the station. Officially it never happened.
Habit or tradition?:hmm:

Jack

[SASless]

Does anyone suppose that a uniform or some emblem of rank or even of social class guarantees the absence of such misconduct.....because if you do you are grossly misinformed and have no grasp of history or reality.

As to whether it is becoming more of a problem or to what extent it is can be argued but to suggest in one's time it did not happen is pure folly.

The key ingredient is whether the victim considered the conduct to be offensive is the moral standard and whether it violated a Law or Regulation is the legal standard.

[downsizer]

Oh, I absolutely believe them.
My question is about whether this is a relatively recent aberration or did it always happen and I just missed it?

IMO the latter.

[Two's in]

Oh, I absolutely believe them.
My question is about whether this is a relatively recent aberration or did it always happen and I just missed it?

It always happened. What changed (over many, many decades) was the willingness of the services to accept that this was just "boys being boys" and realize it was actually rape, sexual assault and coercion. There was no point in reporting it to a system that was full of individuals who saw no problem with those type of behaviors. Until the Officers and SNCOs in command and leadership positions understood that everybody in their units deserved to be treated with the same respect and professionalism, regardless of gender, this behavior went unchecked. For all the doubters out there, it took years of applying a systematic training approach to professional conduct before the knuckle dragging misogynists became fully ostracized (clearly not in all cases). We might all claim to have been been faultless in this respect, but at some point over the years I'm sure that most of us witnessed acts of aggression and coercion without comment.

[artee]

It always happened. What changed (over many, many decades) was the willingness of the services to accept that this was just "boys being boys" and realize it was actually rape, sexual assault and coercion. There was no point in reporting it to a system that was full of individuals who saw no problem with those type of behaviors. Until the Officers and SNCOs in command and leadership positions understood that everybody in their units deserved to be treated with the same respect and professionalism, regardless of gender, this behavior went unchecked. For all the doubters out there, it took years of applying a systematic training approach to professional conduct before the knuckle dragging misogynists became fully ostracized (clearly not in all cases). We might all claim to have been been faultless in this respect, but at some point over the years I'm sure that most of us witnessed acts of aggression and coercion without comment.

And how many of us can say hand on heart that we haven't historically behaved in a way that in modern terms would be beyond the pale?

[Mr Mac]

One of my staff recently had an altercation with 3 US Navy officers in San Diego. She is German but was visiting a friend there as she was on Business for us in Panama, and flew up for the weekend to see her friend who was an army brat, and had grown up in Germany.
The roving hands started and were re buffed 3 times. She said I will break your arm if you do it again ( she is very much into Karate). Hand came back and consequently broken. Fellow officers stepped in and suffered busted nose. They fled before Shore Patrol and Police arrived.
She was very miffed as she broke a nail !! So it still happens though given screening of officers in Western forces at least you would think they would find this out before they are even allowed to join.

Incidentally my employee is Gay so they were the wrong sex anyway.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[Davef68]

"The court heard that the assault took place as Bayliss’s victim tried to get away from him WHEN SHE SAW HIS WEDDING RING."

Huh?
From the extended report in the Mail

They were not known to each other when they met on the night out at a military base in the south of England, where Bayliss was celebrating his promotion to Squadron Leader.

After talking, they went outside and began kissing, but at that point the female officer noticed he was wearing a wedding ring and pulled away from him, intending to go back into the mess hall.

[langleybaston]

An example of beyond the pale now, but with the kindest of intentions at age 43. LB to 27 y.o. tall, well built, female assistant ......... no others present.

"Oh, I do like that skirt!"

"Sir, I know you dislike me to wear culottes [HOW? I NEVER SAID A WORD FOR MONTHS] but they are practical and comfortable. I am a bit big for skirts!"

We got on like a house on fire usually, and her career prospered, and I stopped commenting on staff clothing.

Dodgy then, very dodgy now, unless I misread the zeitgeist.

[MightyGem]

The roving hands started and were re buffed 3 times. She said I will break your arm if you do it again ( she is very much into Karate). Hand came back and consequently broken. Fellow officers stepped in and suffered busted nose.
Outstanding! :ok:​​​​​​​

[Tartiflette Fan]

The roving hands started and were re buffed 3 times. She said I will break your arm if you do it again ( she is very much into Karate). Hand came back and consequently broken. Fellow officers stepped in and suffered busted nose. They fled before Shore Patrol and Police arrived.
Mr Mac

Sounds rather strange as karate is blows rather than holds ( judo etc ) and broken limbs would be unlikely ( former brown belt shotokan ). Strikes would generally be targeted - like bullet impacts - at the main body mass. Broken noses would certainly be within normal criteria.

[NutLoose]

Sounds rather strange as karate is blows rather than holds ( judo etc ) and broken limbs would be unlikely ( former brown belt shotokan ). Strikes would generally be targeted - like bullet impacts - at the main body mass. Broken noses would certainly be within normal criteria.

Thanks for that Mrs Marple :}

[Herod]

It's an old saying, but possibly worth repeating. "An Act of Parliament made you an officer, but it would take an Act of God to make you a gentleman"

[Mr Mac]

TF
The woman is into Martial Arts and Karate was mentioned at interview around 6 years ago but I also now know about Kick-boxing as well, and Judo may also be in her repertoire and she is quite a good Clay Pigeon shot as well.

At the moment is with me here in Doha as all being well in 3 years she will be my replacement. I will ask her what move she used, but it will mean bugger all to me, but more to you.

The office just knows not to mess with her as she is a little direct hence, a long handover phase because I have to change that in her. Sadly for the male staff as I said she bats for the other side, but a good member of staff and I have high hopes for her.

She had an incident with a colleague when working in Saigon when she put a drunk Englishman on his back as he was lecturing them about WW2 and all that, and she turned her back on him, and he grabbed her shoulder to turn her around. Big mistake. I got the report from my staff and client who both said she was provoked.

So just got to stop her hitting people, though apparently I told her to show more restraint after Saigon which is why she gave him fair warning ❗️

Cheers
Mr Mac

[tucumseh]

'The licentious soldiery whose prerogative is to rape and pillage has no place in the Army of today'.

(Defence Scientific Advisory Council to Secretary of State for Defence, 14 August 2001).

At the time, it was thought this was the Army catching up with other Services.....

[NicolaJayne]

TF
The woman is into Marshall Arts and Karate was mentioned at interview around 6 years ago but I also now know about Kick-boxing as well, and Judo may also be in her repertoire and she is quite a good Clay Pigeon shot as well.

At the moment is with me here in Doha as all being well in 3 years she will be my replacement. I will ask her what move she used, but it will mean bugger all to me, but more to you.

The office just knows not to mess with her as she is a little direct hence, a long handover phase because I have to change that in her. Sadly for the male staff as I said she bats for the other side, but a good member of staff and I have high hopes for her.

She had an incident with a colleague when working in Saigon when she put a drunk Englishman on his back as he was lecturing them about WW2 and all that, and she turned her back on him, and he grabbed her shoulder to turn her around. Big mistake. I got the report from my staff and client who both said she was provoked.

So just got to stop her hitting people, though apparently I told her to show more restraint after Saigon which is why she gave him fair warning ❗️

Cheers
Mr Mac
" their tyres Ziva, not their throats "

[Mr Mac]

Nicola Jayne
Not sure who Ziva is, but 4th Dan Karate recently attained apparently. Studying something Hawaiian as well now. I asked about the arm and she said in retrospect maybe wrist but right arm. I did not ask further as I think she is a bit embarrassed about it.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[charliegolf]

Nicola Jayne
Not sure who Ziva is,
Mr Mac

TV show NCIS. Ziva David is a kick-ass former Mossad agent.

CG

[Mr Mac]

CG
Thank you for the update. I looked up your TV show our , Ziva is taller but a brunette but also a very good clothes horse. The short skirts got her into trouble.

The office reckon we should rent her out to the Ukrainians as the war would be over quicker is the consensus- joke 🙂

Cheers
Mr Mac

[pilotmike]

TF
The woman is into Marshall Arts
That's resolved matters: she was into the art of marshalling people... on this occasions marshalling the 3 US Navy officers away from her.

So we no longer need to worry about which martial art she might have used to achieve it.

[Mr Mac]

Pilotmike
Joy of typing on IPhone so well spotted, and updated for you.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[langleybaston]

It's an old saying, but possibly worth repeating. "An Act of Parliament made you an officer, but it would take an Act of God to make you a gentleman"

And there was me thinking it was the Sovereign.

[Herod]

You're of course right, Langley. An Act proposed by Parliament, but requiring Royal Assent. Posted as I heard it, at a much younger age. Motto; think before posting

[pax britanica]

Embarrasing for the RAFG but look at the Met , it s actually their job to /investigate prevent this kind of thing . Does Uniform -formal rank structures -elements of danger and risk as part of the job have anyhting to do with it compared to my wholly civilian world?? Look at the list of MPs, Councillors who have been accused of similar misconduct . Harder to cover things up these days but anything where sex and drink are involved at work in or out of uniform has the p[otential to end badly.. Excuse my civilan viewpoint

[ExAscoteer2]

The point is that Commissioned Officers are expected to be held to far higher standards of behaviour than are Civilians.

[charliegolf]

The point is that Commissioned Officers are expected to be held to far higher standards of behaviour than are Civilians.

Is that taken for granted; or supported by regulation? Genuine question.

CG

[ExAscoteer2]

It's certainly what I was taught at Cranditz in the CESR lessons (Customs, Etiquette, and Social Responsibility). It's generally referred to as 'Officer Qualities'.

[MPN11]

Is that taken for granted; or supported by regulation? Genuine question.

CG
Commissioned Officers receive formal training on wocial behaviour. Or at least we did in the 60s, although society and selection back then gave us a head start.

[ShyTorque]

Commissioned Officers receive formal training on wocial behaviour. Or at least we did in the 60s, although society and selection back then gave us a head start.

I never received formal training on wocial behaviour during my officer training. What is it?

Were were required to sign as having read “Officers’ Confidential Orders” on an annual basis. They were in effect guidelines on individual behaviour.

[langleybaston]

I never received formal training on wocial behaviour during my officer training. What is it?

Were were required to sign as having read “Officers’ Confidential Orders” on an annual basis. They were in effect guidelines on individual behaviour.

So what is a were were? As it were.

[charliegolf]

Commissioned Officers receive formal training on wocial behaviour. Or at least we did in the 60s, although society and selection back then gave us a head start.

Officers (and airmen/women) receive training on everything they do. Failing pilot training or atc training doesn't result in a court martial though. Since asking the question I've learned that 'inappropriate sexual behaviour' IS codified, with a presumption of dismissal and or criminal sanctions if guilty. That's not the same as 'expecting' higher standards though, is it?

CG

[charliegolf]

[QUOTE=ShyTorque;11410459]I never received formal training on wocial behaviour during my officer training. What is it?

You spelled 'woeful' incorrectly.:E

CG

[ExAscoteer2]

CG

Of course it is!

If you cannot attain the required stds it's bye bye.

Is that SO hard to understand?

[212man]

It's certainly what I was taught at Cranditz in the CESR lessons (Customs, Etiquette, and Social Responsibility). It's generally referred to as 'Officer Qualities'.
OQs and PQs as I recall

[NicolaJayne]

Is that taken for granted; or supported by regulation? Genuine question.

CG

look at what is expected in the King's Regulations ( and the various other legislation and the JSPs)

[212man]

look at what is expected in the King's Regulations ( and the various other legislation and the JSPs)

A starting point....

Appropriate Behaviour 22. The operational imperative to sustain team cohesion and to maintain trust and loyalty between commanders and those they command imposes a need for a standard of social behaviour more demanding than those required by society at large. This is equally necessary both on and off operations, on and off duty. It is important to acknowledge in the tightly knit military community the need for mutual respect and the requirement to avoid conduct that offends others.
​​​​​​​23. Social misbehaviour can undermine trust and cohesion and, therefore, damage operational effectiveness. It is not practicable to list every type of conduct or relationship that may constitute social misbehaviour6 , but it includes: unwelcome sexual attention; over-familiarity with the spouses or partners of other Service personnel; displays of affection which might cause offence to others; behaviour which damages or hazards the marriage or personal relationships of Service personnel or civilian colleagues within the wider defence community; and taking sexual advantage of subordinates. The seriousness with which misconduct will be regarded will depend on the individual circumstances that prevail at that time and the potential for adversely affecting operational effectiveness. Nevertheless, misconduct involving abuse of position, trust or rank, or taking advantage of an individual’s separation will be viewed as being particularly serious.

[flown-it]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2 View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/651987-raf-chinook-pilot-jailed-sexual-assault.html#post11410442)
It's certainly what I was taught at Cranditz in the CESR lessons (Customs, Etiquette, and Social Responsibility). It's generally referred to as 'Officer Qualities'.
OQs and PQs as I recall

At Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth we were hammered on how to act as future officers and gentlemen. They were called Officer Like Qualities. Thus OLQs and discussed as "Oily Qs"

[NicolaJayne]

A starting point....
exactly this ...

[langleybaston]

I believe that KRs and QRs ** in the past never felt the need to explain how to be a decent person. Miscreants were dealt with by their peer group as often as not, from what I read and hear.

** I have a near complete set of ARMY Sovereign's Regs from about 1840 to date, because I have become an historian of sorts. Sorry about that, and I am sure RAF Regs are better!

[huge72]

The reason that until recently only the OR's received the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal was that Officers were expected to have good standards and OR's had to prove it as sadly some did not! I know of several who didn't get the madal because of small mistakes whilst junior airmen/airwomen now aviators, whereas officers got away with High Jinks!!!

[pr00ne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2 View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/651987-raf-chinook-pilot-jailed-sexual-assault.html#post11410442)
It's certainly what I was taught at Cranditz in the CESR lessons (Customs, Etiquette, and Social Responsibility). It's generally referred to as 'Officer Qualities'.
OQs and PQs as I recall

At the Royal Naval College, Dartmouth we were hammered on how to act as future officers and gentlemen. They were called Officer Like Qualities. Thus OLQs and discussed as "Oily Qs"

Were the female officer trainees hammered on how to act as Gentlemen too?

[BEagle]

Don T (RIP), one of our ex-Halton 'supertech' ex-Apps at RAFC, though quite tall, was once advised by his Flt Cdr (not the sharpest tool in the box) that he had 'Unofficer-like bone structure'....

Come the graduation photo, they wanted the taller members to be placed in a preferred location. "Not Don", I said in something louder than a stage whisper, "He doesn't have officer-like bone structure"!

Don T laughed, his Flt Cdr scowled as he tried to find who'd made the comment.

[pax britanica]

As a civilain I think 212mans article 22 manages to be quite extyensive as wel as concise about the kinds of behavious which are inapaprorpiate to verging on if not actual criminal offences. It also specifically sets outt he responsibilities of those involvig senior/junior rank interaction and interaction with family memebrs . A pretty good guide which could and should be suitable for many organsiations.
The only thing I do take isue with is , and I am amazed its still around, is theseemingly archaic officer and a gentleman or officers and 'other ranks' (a dismissiveand to my mind insulting term for the majority in any military unit. I believe the U forces , despite the Richard Gere film dont discrimninate to the same degree. Any one in the service should be made very clear what misuse of position or rank means be that an AVM or Corporal not just the oficer ranks.
However I was impressed with Article 22 and thought it a very good model for business .workign and adult life in general

[Union Jack]

As a civilain I think 212mans article 22 manages to be quite extyensive as wel as concise about the kinds of behavious which are inapaprorpiate to verging on if not actual criminal offences. It also specifically sets outt he responsibilities of those involvig senior/junior rank interaction and interaction with family memebrs . A pretty good guide which could and should be suitable for many organsiations.
The only thing I do take isue with is , and I am amazed its still around, is theseemingly archaic officer and a gentleman or officers and 'other ranks' (a dismissiveand to my mind insulting term for the majority in any military unit. I believe the U forces , despite the Richard Gere film dont discrimninate to the same degree. Any one in the service should be made very clear what misuse of position or rank means be that an AVM or Corporal not just the oficer ranks.
However I was impressed with Article 22 and thought it a very good model for business .workign and adult life in general

Thank fully, the Senior Service no longer refers to "Officers and their Ladies, Warrant Officers and Senior Ratings and their Wives, and Junior Ratings and their Women"....:=

Jack

[charliegolf]

Thank fully, the Senior Service no longer refers to "Officers and their Ladies, Warrant Officers and Senior Ratings and their Wives, and Junior Ratings and their Women"....:=

Jack
Did they ever? Really?

CG

[SASless]

Does it require formal training by the Military for Officers to grasp the concepts of proper conduct when dealing with members of the opposite sex?

(For the Record I adhere to the definition of the sexes that is based upon the plumbing issued at birth....which is logical, reasonable, simple by today's standards very much old fashioned.....and unqualified as I am not a Biologist )

[OmegaV6]

Does it require formal training by the Military for Officers to grasp the concepts of proper conduct when dealing with other members of the human race?


SAS .. if you modify your statement slightly, it works regardless of the plumbing and works 100% of the time ... either way I totally agree with your underlying sentiment.....

[SASless]

Indeed....mutual respect and courtesy applies equally to all of us on this Blue and Green Orb.

[NutLoose]

Ahhhh, every night will be a dining in night. Just a shame they never gave him more.


The sad part in in all of this is his pension, his wife has probably lost her married quarter or if in their own home, now has the problem of keeping it over her head and that of the children, and with the pension gone her future security has also evaporated.
Tragic.

[pr00ne]

Ahhhh, every night will be a dining in night. Just a shame they never gave him more.


The sad part in in all of this is his pension, his wife has probably lost her married quarter or if in their own home, now has the problem of keeping it over her head and that of the children, and with the pension gone her future security has also evaporated.
Tragic.

All true, and all very sad, but ALL his fault and nobody else’s!

[212man]

Where has it been stated he will lose his pension? It seems highly unlikely

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/sentencing-guide-v5-jan18-1.pdf#page37

[NutLoose]

Where has it been stated he will lose his pension? It seems highly unlikely

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/sentencing-guide-v5-jan18-1.pdf#page37

Post 7 mentioned it, apologies if not correct.

[ORAC]

Reference dismissal and pensions - page 22-25 apply


https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/sentencing-guide-v5-jan18-1.pdf

In particular:

3.3.10 As a general rule, pension entitlements once earned may not be forfeited and the court has no power to sanction forfeiture. However, all Pension Schemes do provide for exceptional circumstances where the Secretary of State may order forfeiture. Such an order may be made where, for example, the Service person is convicted of treason, Official Secrets Acts offences where the sentence is at least 10 years’ imprisonment, and other offences which the Secretary of State considers to have been injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the State (e.g. assisting the enemy, mutiny, desertion in war and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions). Similarly, surviving spouses’ benefits may be abated where they wilfully aided and abetted the commission of the offence. The schemes allow forfeiture if the member has a monetary obligation to the Crown which arises out of criminal, negligent or fraudulent act or omission and arises out of or in connection with service in the Armed Forces. Recovery is possible once the pension begins payment…..

[212man]

Reference dismissal and pensions - page 22 applies.


https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/sentencing-guide-v5-jan18-1.pdf
I know what it says - that's why I posted it!

As a general rule, pension entitlements once earned may not be forfeited and the court has no power to sanction forfeiture. However, all Pension Schemes do provide for exceptional circumstances where the Secretary of State may order forfeiture. Such an order may be made where, for example, the Service person is convicted of treason, Official Secrets Acts offences where the sentence is at least 10 years’ imprisonment, and other offences which the Secretary of State considers to have been injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the State (e.g. assisting the enemy, mutiny, desertion in war and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions).

[Herod]

What would be justice would be an order for the pension to be paid directly to his wife's bank account. Why should she and the children suffer? Won't happen I know.

[Fortissimo]

What would be justice would be an order for the pension to be paid directly to his wife's bank account. Why should she and the children suffer? Won't happen I know.

Sadly, I suspect the wife and children will suffer anyway (beyond the personal impact of his offence), whether or not they have/had a joint bank account. The bigger issue here is the individual has not served through to age 40 and will not have completed 20 years of service, so any pension entitlements are deferred to State Pension Age, there will be no lump sum and the only cash will be the resettlement grant. SPA for this person will be at least 30 years from now, so his only income from the public purse before then is likely to be restricted to unemployment benefit or job seekers allowance.

[Tartiflette Fan]

Reference dismissal and pensions - page 22-25 apply


https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/sentencing-guide-v5-jan18-1.pdf

In particular:

3.3.10 As a general rule, pension entitlements once earned may not be forfeited and the court has no power to sanction forfeiture. However, all Pension Schemes do provide for exceptional circumstances where the Secretary of State may order forfeiture. Such an order may be made where, for example, the Service person is convicted of treason, Official Secrets Acts offences where the sentence is at least 10 years’ imprisonment, and other offences which the Secretary of State considers to have been injurious to the defence, security or other interests of the State (e.g. assisting the enemy, mutiny, desertion in war and grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions). Similarly, surviving spouses’ benefits may be abated where they wilfully aided and abetted the commission of the offence. The schemes allow forfeiture if the member has a monetary obligation to the Crown which arises out of criminal, negligent or fraudulent act or omission and arises out of or in connection with service in the Armed Forces. Recovery is possible once the pension begins payment…..

I don't know if the police are the same as the armed forces* - although one might think they would be similar - but it is normal where police officers are likely to be convicted of a crime and go to prison, they will resign before conviction. I believe the reason for this is that the conviction somehow allows the Police Authority to reclaim the pension "contributions " they have made if the convicted person is still employed at this point, which would obviously have a major effect on the pension. How this works in practice, I don't know, because - unlike money-purchase schemes - they are not contributing 7% or 10% per month to your pension.

* EDIT: One major difference occurs to me is that a police officer can resign at any time, whereas, I believe, a serviceman would need permission to do so outside contracted dates of service.

[ShyTorque]

Sadly, I suspect the wife and children will suffer anyway (beyond the personal impact of his offence), whether or not they have/had a joint bank account. The bigger issue here is the individual has not served through to age 40 and will not have completed 20 years of service, so any pension entitlements are deferred to State Pension Age, there will be no lump sum and the only cash will be the resettlement grant. SPA for this person will be at least 30 years from now, so his only income from the public purse before then is likely to be restricted to unemployment benefit or job seekers allowance.

When did that rule come into force? It certainly wasn’t the case when I left at my 16/38 point.

[Easy Street]

When did that rule come into force? It certainly wasn’t the case when I left at my 16/38 point.

That's because you had a 16/38 initial pension point. Anyone who joined between April 2005 and April 2015 only has a 18/40 initial pension point: one of the changes brought about by AFPS05. If you leave before your initial pension point, you don't get an initial pension...

[Sloppy Link]

I don't know if the police are the same as the armed forces* - although one might think they would be similar - but it is normal where police officers are likely to be convicted of a crime and go to prison, they will resign before conviction. I believe the reason for this is that the conviction somehow allows the Police Authority to reclaim the pension "contributions " they have made if the convicted person is still employed at this point, which would obviously have a major effect on the pension. How this works in practice, I don't know, because - unlike money-purchase schemes - they are not contributing 7% or 10% per month to your pension.

* EDIT: One major difference occurs to me is that a police officer can resign at any time, whereas, I believe, a serviceman would need permission to do so outside contracted dates of service.

My understanding is the Police have their pension contributions returned to them to invest in another pension on the open market, reason being the Police pension is more generous by reason of being in the Police. The system is set up such that is their only option, they can’t use as a lump sum etc unless they would be able to do so in the normal manner, over 55, up to 25%.

[Tartiflette Fan]

My understanding is the Police have their pension contributions returned to them to invest in another pension on the open market, reason being the Police pension is more generous by reason of being in the Police. The system is set up such that is their only option, they can’t use as a lump sum etc unless they would be able to do so in the normal manner, over 55, up to 25%.

No. The individual's contribution remain "invested" in the police pension, but the force can apply for its contributions to be forfeited under specific circumstances.

1.10. Forfeiture will not be appropriate in every case where a pension scheme member has committed a criminal offence, but should be considered where there is, or might be, public concern about the pension scheme member’s abuse of their position of trust. In order to be eligible for a forfeiture certificate, the offence(s) must have been committed in connection with their service as a member of a police force.

1.15. However, the Courts have determined that an individual’s pension may be forfeited by no more than 65% i.e. only contributions that have been made by the police force. The remainder reflects a member’s own contributions which cannot be forfeited.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027746/Pension_Forfeiture_guidance.pdf

[ShyTorque]

That's because you had a 16/38 initial pension point. Anyone who joined between April 2005 and April 2015 only has a 18/40 initial pension point: one of the changes brought about by AFPS05. If you leave before your initial pension point, you don't get an initial pension...


Thank you for enlightening me. I didn’t know that the option point had been delayed by two years. Good to know that I served in the good old days…;)

[ExAscoteer2]

Ditto!

[ShyTorque]

You didn't. PAS 05 pension is considerably better than the old Spec Aircrew pension which didn't include flying pay. I'm much better off than you.

You're welcome :)

But had I not left at the age of 38 I would have lost my chance to emigrate and serve in a job flying far more modern aircraft, where I was able to put the equivalent of my entire RAF monthly salary in the bank and pay off my mortgage fifteen years early. You’re welcome, too. ;)

[snapper41]

I was on the same RAF squadron as this guy. He was an arrogant, cocky, self obsessed individual, he thought the world revolved around him.

Pilot, then…😁

[langleybaston]

Pilot, then…😁

More like a Polar explorer ........ it happens at both poles.

Any where else one gets a component of same.

Navs will understand.

[Bob Viking]

On a thread about a sexual assault you guys are bragging about how you’ve paid your mortgages off and what a great life you’ve had. Classy.

BV

[ShyTorque]

On a thread about a sexual assault you guys are bragging about how you’ve paid your mortgages off and what a great life you’ve had. Classy.

BV

I gave up my RAF career after things weren’t going at all well and I almost lost my family because of it. It turned out to have been a good financial decision at the time although it has cost me quite dearly in the long term regarding a pension. Sorry to hear it upsets others. If it’s such a big issue report my post and let the moderator delete it if necessary.

[Sloppy Link]

No. The individual's contribution remain "invested" in the police pension, but the force can apply for its contributions to be forfeited under specific circumstances.

1.10. Forfeiture will not be appropriate in every case where a pension scheme member has committed a criminal offence, but should be considered where there is, or might be, public concern about the pension scheme member’s abuse of their position of trust. In order to be eligible for a forfeiture certificate, the offence(s) must have been committed in connection with their service as a member of a police force.

1.15. However, the Courts have determined that an individual’s pension may be forfeited by no more than 65% i.e. only contributions that have been made by the police force. The remainder reflects a member’s own contributions which cannot be forfeited.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027746/Pension_Forfeiture_guidance.pdf

Thanks, I knew there was some kind of sanction.