View Full Version : Tarmac delay only US pilots can probably answer
Since covid I have started flying from Europe to the USA but have a question that I can’t find the answer to with google.
I understand a tarmac delay starts when passengers no longer have the opportunity to deplane.
we had a cargo loading problem and the doors were open but the seat belt signs were left on (our SOP says all passengers on board belts go on).
Even though the main entry door was open throughout does the fact that we left the seat belt sign on mean passengers could claim they did not “have the opportunity to deplane”?
in my search I did find this reference to breaking the seatbelt sign rule.
It is a violation of 14 C.F.R. 121.317(f) not to have your seat belt fastened when the seat belt sign is on. Civil penalties up to $10,000 could be assessed.
Would be interested to know when US carriers put the seatbelt sign on before departure.
thanks
bafanguy
19th Mar 2023, 12:53
RMC,
I can't imagine 14 C.F.R. 121.317(f) applies in the situation you describe. We were required to enforce compliance if the sign was on and the airplane was moving on the ground (push back/tow in//taxi) or when belts were necessary in flight. If the main cabin door was open and the jetway attached, you could likely get off if you wanted. The airplane isn't a jail. Just tell the F/A you're stepping out...and be prepared to get left behind if you aren't back on board when push back starts.
Our procedures called for turning on the sign during initial cockpit set up and turning off when appropriate in flight ( with a PA admonition that even though it's off, it's prudent to leave it fastened).
If anyone was ever prosecuted and fined by the FAA for not being belted at the gate with the main cabin door open, I'd like to read the story.
SWBKCB
19th Mar 2023, 13:00
The airplane isn't a jail. Just tell the F/A you're stepping out...and be prepared to get left behind if you aren't back on board when push back starts.
Really? With your bag left in the hold?
bafanguy
19th Mar 2023, 13:56
Well, you've got a point there. In that case, the bag would be removed if you just disappeared. I've seen that done. Sitting at the gate, you just can't refuse to let people off. What happens after that may vary a bit.
Could someone just sneak off ? Probably. I'm not sure how thorough the screening of checked bags is these days. I've been retired for a good while and haven't paid much attention to such things.
bafanguy
19th Mar 2023, 14:54
RMC (and SWBKCB),
interesting subject. I checked with an authoritative source: my recently-retired F/A wife (52 years on the job...I'm a slacker at only 35).
She says that:
(1) There's no enforcement of the seat belt sign with the airplane parked at the gate with the cabin door open. At the point the agent comes to close the door and be told the "cabin is ready for push back", you must have the belt fastened.
(2) Yes, you can get off the airplane if you insist. There may be some complications for an international departure but there are procedures for that.
(3) There's little likelihood of someone sneaking off as one F/A is assigned to hover around the door from the start of boarding until it's closed. Anyone walking off without explanation would be seen.
(4) You can bet checked luggage will be pulled when a pax gets off.
(5) Is it possible the system can fail ? Yep, it's a system designed and operated by humans. But the industry makes all reasonable efforts to operate securely.
MarkerInbound
20th Mar 2023, 18:47
On the 747 the seatbelt sign was the first item on the Before Start Procedure after the Purser had called to request clearance to close the L1 door. On the 767 the FCOM says to turn the seatbelt sign on 5 minutes prior to engine start or pushback. It’s going to vary at each airline.
I had heard that One major US carrier had a stack of Tarmac delays filed against them and that the doors being opened (but seat belt sign on) meant pax could not legally leave the aircraft (without risking the $10,000 fine)?
“It is a violation of 14 C.F.R. 121.317(f) not to have your seat belt fastened when the seat belt sign is on. Civil penalties up to $10,000 could be assessed. “
bafanguy
18th Apr 2023, 15:12
I had heard that One major US carrier had a stack of Tarmac delays filed against them and that the doors being opened (but seat belt sign on) meant pax could not legally leave the aircraft (without risking the $10,000 fine)?
“It is a violation of 14 C.F.R. 121.317(f) not to have your seat belt fastened when the seat belt sign is on. Civil penalties up to $10,000 could be assessed. “
Can anyone provide legal documents showing a case where this legal action and fine were imposed ( on either an airline or individual passenger) by the FAA under the circumstances described ? I Googled around a bit and found a case where some guy on a SWA flight got in legal trouble but the airplane was in flight and he was a bad boy in other ways in addition to the seat belt thing.
The quoted statement about the $10K fine isn't specific enough to answer the situation about being at the gate.
bafanguy
18th Apr 2023, 19:10
Looked for a letter of interpretation on this question from the Chief Counsel of the FAA but can't find one (I'd doubt there is one).
So, contacted my FAA Air Carrier Inspector buddy who confirmed my suspicion that with door open at the gate, seat belt sign is advisory prior to closing the door for departure. Once door is closed and aircraft pushes, then it's an enforceable regulation. If A/C is on taxiway, but stopped, seat belt is advisory again. A/C in motion is the key here.
If flight is delayed and door open, pax can leave aircraft but must remain in gate area
This is certainly the way I've seen it applied in my years of pax flying.
If there's an official FAA statement on this regarding at the gate, door open, etc...I'd like to see it. I don't know where else to look.
Great, thanks for the answer. Your FAA buddy is as good a reference as I am going to get.
bafanguy
22nd Apr 2023, 18:51
Your FAA buddy is as good a reference as I am going to get.
Yep, I guess so. I don't know where else to look. One of those letters of interpretation would spell it out but I couldn't find one after my cursory look. I'm pretty lazy these days.
Asturias56
24th Apr 2023, 10:13
" In that case, the bag would be removed if you just disappeared. I've seen that done. "
Saw it on American at LHR - two passengers got on (business) he decided after 10 minutes that he wasn't traveling and got off - the Cabin Staff asked his Mrs was he likely to change his mind - she shrugged and said it was unlikely so they collared one of the ground staff and the bag was found (remarkably quickly ) and trundled away.
bafanguy
24th Apr 2023, 21:29
A56,
Yep, I've seen it take considerable time to find a bag down in the hold so you were lucky.
tdracer
25th Apr 2023, 00:16
" In that case, the bag would be removed if you just disappeared. I've seen that done. "
Saw it on American at LHR - two passengers got on (business) he decided after 10 minutes that he wasn't traveling and got off - the Cabin Staff asked his Mrs was he likely to change his mind - she shrugged and said it was unlikely so they collared one of the ground staff and the bag was found (remarkably quickly ) and trundled away.
My experience wasn't so pleasant. Flying a TWA 747 from JFK to Heathrow - it was less than a year after Lockerbie... Someone checked a bag but didn't board the aircraft. Probably 15 minutes spent trying to make sure the passenger in question hadn't boarded - then over an hour to find and remove their bag :ugh:. By the time we finally pushed back, not only had we missed our takeoff slot, but there was a huge que waiting to takeoff (not uncommon at JFK). We'd been in the TO que for over 30 minutes when they shutdown the departure runway due to severe thunderstorms :eek:. So we sat - soon the pilots shutdown the engines to save fuel, and on a hot July day the APU wasn't up to the task of keeping the aircraft cool.
We finally took off almost seven hours late. When they came around with the meal service - by that time I was famished. The FA put the meal in front of me - and it looked disgusting - she said "honest, it was very appetizing 8 hours ago" :rolleyes:. She then asked me what I wanted to drink - I asked for a beer. She responded that "you don't want a beer" - ah, yes, I do! "No, you don't" - and so she grabbed a can of beer from the cart and put it against my cheek - it was warmer than I was :ugh: - "sorry, it was cold 8 hours ago...". I thought for a second, and asked for a red wine so she put a small bottle on my tray. She thought for a second, and put a second bottle on the tray. A minute or so later, as she was serving the next row, she put a third bottle of wine on my tray :O. She obviously realized how horrible the whole experience was.
Last time I ever booked a flight on TWA...
tossbag
25th Apr 2023, 05:56
How's that TWA's fault? They were probably happy you didn't fly with them again.
tdracer
25th Apr 2023, 23:43
How's that TWA's fault? They were probably happy you didn't fly with them again.
I didn't tell you about the return flight - where they didn't have enough meals on board ran out before they got to me. My "dinner" consisted of a scone and some fruit (the "breakfast" that was planned).
I stopped flying Continental after they lost my luggage on 5 out of 6 trips.
I suppose they were happy I avoided them as well :yuk: