USAF Authorises Hand & Neck Tattoos

[ORAC]

https://www.stripes.com/branches/air_force/2023-03-02/air-force-approves-neck-hand-tattoos-9319649.html

With the ‘modern American in mind,’ Air Force OKs neck and hand tattoos

[ExAscoteer2]

And? This IS the 21stC FFS!

[stevef]

I'll await the usual Pprune screaming instead of measured responses, but how about applicants coming up to armed forces appearance standards rather than the armed forces coming down to theirs?

[Asturias56]

The armed forces are a reflection of the society they protect - when that stops you finish up with a set of S American generals

[TUPE]

The armed forces are a reflection of the society they protect - when that stops you finish up with a set of S American generals
Asturia, you are Mike Wigston & I claim my $10 😂

[ORAC]

The armed forces are a reflection of the society they protect.
Indeed.

If tattoos are culturally acceptable there is no reason not to accept those who bear them. If common then refusing to accept them means turning away potentially excellent recruits.

https://www.rokdrop.net/2017/01/10/new-zealand-military-approves-full-facial-tattoo-for-maori-servicemember/


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x360/moko_2016x9_0d7432081f6bb41eeec5a57a434df91e40ea7f87.jpg
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[Wyntor]

Driver airframe will still need L & R on the gloves though.

[NutLoose]

I have already commented on this in the Ukraine thread, there was a short film of Ukrainians training in the UK and one of the instructors was a young Canadian female office with flower tattoos on her neck and I stated then how refreshing it was to see that old rule had gone. Offensive items, yes I agree shouldn't be visible, but the rest why not, we are no longer living in the middle ages.

Incidentally, I remember watching a programme ages ago about cosmetic tattooists and what they do is spectacular, they re-colour items like burns, scars or birthmarks to make them look like normal skin, heck they even add nipples on women that have sadly had to have a mastectomy to give them back a sense of normality..

[dagenham]

It is a shame only hawk and shar will fit on my knuckles............ still i could replace mild and bitter......... with euro fighter ;)

[Union Jack]

The armed forces are a reflection of the society they protect - when that stops you finish up with a set of S American generals
....and, for the avoidance of doubt, the society represented in Post #6 is New Zealand.:)

Jack

[beardy]

One problem, often overlooked, is that tattoos can sometimes hide blood vessels. This can possibly hinder the medics or at least make their job more difficult.

[NutLoose]

Diminishing birth rates mean a diminishing pool to draw your military from and that means you have to adapt to maintain ones military strength and if a visible Tattoo is the least that can happen to prevent one serving ones country then it is a sad day, there are far worse things out there.

[cheekychimp]

I think the Ukrainian military are proving that tattoos and beards aren't a hindrance to operational effectiveness.

[BFSGrad]

The armed forces are a reflection of the society they protect - when that stops you finish up with a set of S American generalsThat requirement is as nonsensical as United’s requirement that its flight crews reflect its passengers.

Absent a draft, compromises must be made to hit recruiting goals. A recent DoD study found that 77% of young Americans (age 17-24) would not qualify for military service without a waiver due to being overweight, using drugs, or having mental and physical health problems.

Fat with tats is the future.

[beardy]

The armed forces are a reflection of the society they protect - when that stops you finish up with a set of S American generals
Oh I think that this is absolutely true, if not then the armed forces become an elite protecting their social equals and looking down on those who can't 'cut it', much as the meat packing glitterati in South America did. Or you might as well employ mercenaries to do your bidding, but what penalties could you put in place for non compliance?

The comparison with a commercial airline is a bit of a red herring and really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[Ohrly]

Indeed.

If tattoos are culturally acceptable there is no reason not to accept those who bear them. If common then refusing to accept them means turning away potentially excellent recruits.

https://www.rokdrop.net/2017/01/10/new-zealand-military-approves-full-facial-tattoo-for-maori-servicemember/


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x360/moko_2016x9_0d7432081f6bb41eeec5a57a434df91e40ea7f87.jpg


Are there many Maori in the USA? Most neck and head tattoos in the USA are from membership to gangs.

[Bksmithca]

Are there many Maori in the USA? Most neck and head tattoos in the USA are from membership to gangs.And if they are gang related then any potential criminal records would be disqualification from Military Service

[Davef68]

I don't like tattoos, but it's not my body. In the modern environment we have to accept that many young people will have them (including members of my own family) and it would be churlish to turn down potentially valuable members of the services for what is now seen as cosmetically acceptable

[jolihokistix]

Just for them to be aware that most spas and bathing establishments in Japan for example bar entrance to anyone with a tattoo. There's usually a large warning sign in the entrance, put there to discourage members of certain gangs, but to be applied equally to all in a spirit of inclusiveness.

Hand or neck tattoos would of course be the most difficult to hide on (attempted) entry. Close family experiences noted.

[Asturias56]

Like Davef68 personally I'm not in favour of any tatoos outside those cultures, where they are important

I've given up commenting in the UK as they are now a fashion accessory - and a very large number of people have them. Can't get the genii back into the bottle I'm afraid

[NutLoose]

So someone applies to join the RAF and is accepted in, he has a beard.. months later he decides to shave it off and has a tattoo under it... Then what?

[stevef]

If a young person was really keen on a military career, it would indicate that he/she had the discipline not to embellish excluded parts of themselves prior to applying, just as they'd be required to hold all educational qualifications noted in the recruitment brochures. Don't conform, don't get in...
(I realise I'll be written off as a miserable old git. :} )

[Asturias56]

The UK armed forces have suffered from recruitment and retention issues for years

Setting out "standards" that reduce the size of the pool doesn't help - especially when those standards have little to with potential fighting performance and seem more driven by aesthetics

[pasta]

If a young person was really keen on a military career, it would indicate that he/she had the discipline not to embellish excluded parts of themselves prior to applying, just as they'd be required to hold all educational qualifications noted in the recruitment brochures. Don't conform, don't get in...
It's a big stretch to suggest that non-compliance with a previous generation's idea of personal aesthetics is down to a lack of discipline.

Younger people are far less likely to smoke than older generations. If you were in the military I'm sure you'll have had many colleagues who smoked. Was that caused by a lack of discipline? Unlike tattoos, smoking might actually impact how well you get the job done. If it's acceptable to recruit people who can't look after their health to the best of their ability, why exclude others on the basis of mere aesthetics?

[Jobza Guddun]

especially when those standards have little to with potential fighting performance and seem more driven by aesthetics

So following that logic, why not bin the dress regs completely then? Only wear uniforms when on parades or when in fighting mode, so just wear civvies; have your hair as long as or in whatever fashion you like; have as many earrings and tatts as you like? So I can grow a full set of face fuzz but can't grow sideburns to the bottom of my ears?

If what you look like has little effect on fighting performance, why don't we just abolish all that and save a ton of cash on clothing too? More people might want to join then (or even stay in) if they don't have to worry about fitting in, or meeting standards? Coz that's the point, right?

Where is the future line to be drawn? I'll look forward to seeing what RAF 2030 will look like!

[Herod]

I can't agree with that. The uniform is a symbol of pride, and I'm sure that those with tattoos are as proud of the force, and their role in is, as anyone.
I'm an old fogey, and I don't particularly like tattoos but if the guy or gal is a good pilot, engineer, administrator, doctor, or any other member of the force, let them get on with it.

[beardy]

So following that logic, why not bin the dress regs completely then? Only wear uniforms when on parades or when in fighting mode, so just wear civvies; have your hair as long as or in whatever fashion you like; have as many earrings and tatts as you like? So I can grow a full set of face fuzz but can't grow sideburns to the bottom of my ears?

If what you look like has little effect on fighting performance, why don't we just abolish all that and save a ton of cash on clothing too? More people might want to join then (or even stay in) if they don't have to worry about fitting in, or meeting standards? Coz that's the point, right?

Where is the future line to be drawn? I'll look forward to seeing what RAF 2030 will look like!
You seem to describe a cohesive, dedicated group, capable of deadly results. Hmm.. they almost sound like rogues who could be heroes.
Conformity to past mores led us into WW1 trenches and cavalry charges.
Perhaps it's time to move into the 21st century.

[GlobalNav]

If a young person was really keen on a military career, it would indicate that he/she had the discipline not to embellish excluded parts of themselves prior to applying, just as they'd be required to hold all educational qualifications noted in the recruitment brochures. Don't conform, don't get in...
(I realise I'll be written off as a miserable old git. :} )

I don't favor tattoos at all because it seems unmilitary to me, but it's simply a cultural issue, and if the culture evolves to accept tattoos, then a tattoo restriction serves no material purpose. Once the restriction is removed, having a tattoo does not violate regulations, does not amount to a lack of discipline, and is not nonconforming. It only violates my personal sense of taste.

[NutLoose]

Put it this way, 13 years ago U.K. military personnel awarded medals, the first marine has a visible neck tattoo, so nothing new.



https://youtu.be/YRIS5qepH40

[Gordomac]

Awful. The downward trend prevails. Tattoos are a badge of office and the office is full of working class gits and non-officer types. Well, so my Dad thought (ex Colonel) and as I ventured through life, it appeared to be the case. Loved that scene in "Officer " Gentleman" where Richard Geer made frantic attempts to cover up his hideous arm tattoo when under scrutiny of the fearsome Drill Sergeant..

Apart from all that, they are a real distraction. Immagine a Senior Office facing you off with a izard tattoo snaking it's way out of his collar towards his left ear0le !

Selection Officers faced with people who feel that they must display unity to a certain mind-set must surely loose interest rapidly.

Blimey. What ever next ?

[superplum]

Blimey. What ever next ?

Obvious, Make Up for the "Real Man". Other variants; take your choice!:cool:

[NutLoose]

And earrings.

[DuncanDoenitz]

In a moment of mid-life madness I recently got a nipple ring.

Hurts like hell, but I always know where my car keys are.

[Asturias56]

"So following that logic, why not bin the dress regs completely then? Only wear uniforms when on parades or when in fighting mode, so just wear civvies; have your hair as long as or in whatever fashion you like; have as many earrings and tatts as you like? So I can grow a full set of face fuzz but can't grow sideburns to the bottom of my ears?"

yes well -your opponents probably dress that way - certainly in many recent conflicts - and it doesn't seem to affect their ability to fight.

A smart uniform really went out at the end of the 19th Century - once camouflage came in. The rest is really dressing up on high days and holy days.

[Dunhovrin]

Driver airframe will still need L & R on the gloves though.
I still have my gloves with R & L on them. As applied by my Nav Captain.

[fltlt]

Who is going to decide what is an obnoxious tattoo, what about naked ladies, what words can be in a tattoo, if it’s morally/culture insensitive, etc., etc., etc.
I think we are wandering into a minefield with blinders on.

[jolihokistix]

With mixed emotions I watch the struggles of people subsequently needing/trying (often unsuccessfully) to remove redesign their tattoos in later life.

[finestkind]

All interesting comments. The one on clothes and other items of appearance has been posted. The issue now is what tattoos are acceptable. Just like what clothes are acceptable. If one is joining up, then one accepts the requirements the Defence Force. Admittedly the reason that tattoos have become acceptable is it is far more prominent in society then it has ever been and if your recruiting numbers are down then some of the restrictions have to be lifted.

[albatross]

Once, years ago, we met some fellows who were supposedly trained and prepared to operate “Covert” …geez they luved that term.
They had grown their hair long, sported ferocious beards and talked of sporting “colourful native garb” in order to blend in.
We asked them how their patriotic flag and unit tattoos amongst many others were going to go over with the enemy when they saw them.
They didn’t laugh.
We found it strange that they would be loudly discussing this at “Happy Hour” in a crowded hotel bar in Dubai.

[NutLoose]

A lot of my ex RN friends from home got “Made in Carlisle” tattooed around their belly buttons which looked cool

[pattern_is_full]

One problem, often overlooked, is that tattoos can sometimes hide blood vessels. This can possibly hinder the medics or at least make their job more difficult.

OTOH, if the recruit is destined for Special Services (SAS, SEAL, etc) - they come with ready-made, permanent, face camouflage. ;)

[Davef68]

If a young person was really keen on a military career, it would indicate that he/she had the discipline not to embellish excluded parts of themselves prior to applying, just as they'd be required to hold all educational qualifications noted in the recruitment brochures. Don't conform, don't get in...
(I realise I'll be written off as a miserable old git. :} )

You make the assumption that all new recruits are young people - I know many people that have joined the services in later life, so should decisions they make at age 19 or 20, when they might not be thinking of a military career, affect that at say age 30? (and when I looked the modern upper age limits were surprisingly high)

[212man]

The UK armed forces have suffered from recruitment and retention issues for years

Setting out "standards" that reduce the size of the pool doesn't help - especially when those standards have little to with potential fighting performance and seem more driven by aesthetics
Particularly given the fact that many of those who actually do the fighting are typically covered in tattoos!

[Lomon]

People often forget that the RAF over the other services tends to recruit people who are a little older and have a little more life experience. Having worked in an AFCO I had to reject an applicant who on paper would have been a great asset to the service as they were a fully qualified mental health nurse with a few years of clinical experience - however they had a small visible tattoo on their neck which was a bar to service.

We even requested a waiver as the candidate was very good and there was a shortage of MH Nurses in the service but someone decided it was more important to maintain standards rather than improve operational effectiveness.

[SASless]

A certain US Secretary of State had a Tiger Tat on his Hind End....obtained during a Port Call in Hong Kong during his Military Service as a young Officer.

Which provide me to go along with the Lads with express intent to do the same....fortunatley I sobered up enough before it was my turn on the table.