The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

[Busdriver01]

American Airlines pilots getting 40% payrise taking top scale widebody captains to $590,000/year with significant lifestyle improvements to boot, to match the recent Delta deal. Aviation in Europe (UK specifically) never looked so unappealing.

[rod_1986]

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.

[hans brinker]

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.

As an ex-european: No Thanks, you can keep your grubby pilots, I have pulled up the bridge!! Also, every Aussie pilot can come over on an E-3, getting an ATP takes a week if you have the required experience.

[SpamCanDriver]

American Airlines pilots getting 40% payrise taking top scale widebody captains to $590,000/year with significant lifestyle improvements to boot, to match the recent Delta deal. Aviation in Europe (UK specifically) never looked so unappealing.

What makes the UK uniquely unappealing in Europe

[gipilot]

TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, it’s the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so there’s no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus there’s the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.

[RARA9]

TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, it’s the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so there’s no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus there’s the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.

BA :ok: good joke

[midnight cruiser]

What makes the UK uniquely unappealing in Europe Setting aside the xenophobic and foul insanity of Brexit (which chains most unfortunate remain voting Brits to the sinking ship)!.... try; an extremely hostile fiscal environment for business and employees alike (captains typically 62% marginal tax), and horrendous state services in return (get sick - you die), covid kids barely educated! The country is on a scary death spiral; business and skilled workers are leaving at an astonishing rate. You want more? - it's a long list, but I won't bore you! But just so long as the economically inactive are protected (hooray; full inflation pay rises for all!! (brexit voting pensioners, and benefit claimants alike)!

[AIMINGHIGH123]

TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, it’s the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so there’s no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus there’s the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.

I disagree. Yes there won’t be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.

RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers.
Brexit may actually help UK licensed pilots.
Anyone starting training now or has just finished have gone or will go EASA route. That gives RYR and Wizz as options to start.
RYR are struggling to fill RUK side of operations.
If you’re jet rated in UK last few months has seen some pretty good options. I know a few people recently who have said to me. “I don’t know where to go?” Been offered Virgin, BA, J2, DHL, Qatar.
UK wise for an FO just looking at ££k J2 is looking mighty. £75k now I think? Summer yes they work hard. Winter though my mate seems to do couple of days work every 2 weeks.
EU land I don’t have my ear to the ground. I do know guys/gals who have got 500hrs at RYR and off to AF/KLM etc.

One thing about the US is yes salaries are looking very good right now.
The cynic in me says yes BUT….. 2 words….
Chapter Eleven.
All bets are off at that stage.

[roll_over]

The US has a currency that they can print out of thin air and the rest of the world wants it no matter what. Countries need USD to buy commodities and Americans are reaping the benefits. Cost of living in the US I would say is a lot higher but if you are making 300k as an FO I don’t think it’s an issue. The US is one big single market where as European is a fragmented market.

I don’t think Europe will ever catch up but there are now no American pilots working abroad really so it may slowly lead to salaries increasing in the ME and that has an effect in Europe.

[Superpilot]

The lobbying power of ALPA is vital in the absense of good social responsibility which simply no longer exists in the world of 21st century capitalism. The 1500 hour bar is ofcourse rediculous but equally rediculous is offering a starting salary of €40k for a new pilot.

[Busdriver01]

Well i've searched through the family history and alas, no sign of any link to the states, so I guess im stuck in brexitland forever more...!

[hans brinker]

TheYanks have more than enough people to cover their shortage, it’s the training that takes time. Remember this shortage is temporary, so there’s no need to give any visa specifically for pilots.

As for EU, well we will never see such an increase. Maybe the AF/KLM or Lufti might up their pay a bit but as far as everyone else you can forget it. We have a massive surplus of pilots and the EU is not 1 country, it might be a single market but with so many countries with different labour laws and economies it practically makes it impossible. Plus there’s the low cost issue, our aviation sector is dominated by Ryanair/Wizzair and Easyjet so they lead the way in terms of pilot pay and the rest are just gonna follow.

So if you want anything close to what the Yanks are getting make sure you get in to AF/KLM, Lufti or maybe BA. For everything else expect some serious deterioration of remuneration packages in the next coming years.

It is what it is.

The pilots at the US version of ryan/wizz/easy (SouthWest/Spirit/Frontier/JetBlue) make 90% of the US version of AF/KL/DL (UA/DL/AA), with the same retirement plan and very similar work rules. SWA is the largest domestic carrier in the US. Personally saw the paycheck of a SFO at 12 year pay (Yes, upgrade is that long, because seniority, and nobody leaves). Over $300K. You know how? Because 100% of the pilots in the US that have a decent pay check are Union. It is somewhat interesting how little that is talked about.

[HOVIS]

Setting aside the xenophobic and foul insanity of Brexit (which chains most unfortunate remain voting Brits to the sinking ship)!.... try; an extremely hostile fiscal environment for business and employees alike (captains typically 62% marginal tax), and horrendous state services in return (get sick - you die), covid kids barely educated! The country is on a scary death spiral; business and skilled workers are leaving at an astonishing rate. You want more? - it's a long list, but I won't bore you! But just so long as the economically inactive are protected (hooray; full inflation pay rises for all!! (brexit voting pensioners, and benefit claimants alike)!
You need to stop watching Fox News.
Other news networks are available.
"Get sick =you die" Idiotic statement.

[SpamCanDriver]

Setting aside the xenophobic and foul insanity of Brexit (which chains most unfortunate remain voting Brits to the sinking ship)!.... try; an extremely hostile fiscal environment for business and employees alike (captains typically 62% marginal tax), and horrendous state services in return (get sick - you die), covid kids barely educated! The country is on a scary death spiral; business and skilled workers are leaving at an astonishing rate. You want more? - it's a long list, but I won't bore you! But just so long as the economically inactive are protected (hooray; full inflation pay rises for all!! (brexit voting pensioners, and benefit claimants alike)!

I was hoping for a sensible answer
Sad to see Pprune is going the way of Twitter/Facebook

[Jetset777747]

Not sure why BA has dropped behind in pay so much but the union doesn’t seem as well represented as Nouf US colleagues

[thetimesreader84]

But take away the hyperbole and they're not far wrong though are they?

We (as pilots) do pay a lot of tax. Our public services are crumbling (NHS waiting times? Police crime stats? The railways? I could go on...)

The government seems pre occupied with protecting pensioners and the ever increasing number of benefit claimants from the harsh tyranny of a cost of living crisis, while draining the "squeezed middle" to fund it.

Would you really recommend the UK as a place to stay and build a career and family if you were talking to a bright 20- something year old graduate? I dont think i would.

[Busdriver01]

The salaries on offer at the US companies now rival those of the lucrative Chinese contracts of yesteryear. Funny old world.

[Alrosa]

I don’t have any intimate knowledge of how things work in the US, but I suspect that part of the reason for the higher salaries on average is the 1500hr rule - which Europe doesn’t have. It’s not the only factor, but it must have some effect.

[Busdriver01]

It certainly reduced supply of newly qualified FOs when it was first implemented, but I cant see how that would have such a massive effect on the entire recruitment/promotion flow. There must be a steady stream of pilots who have done 1500hrs elsewhere applying to the airlines? Especially now it's an established rule?

[Superpilot]

Alrosa, it's the primary factor. 1500 hours experience represents people with lives, homes, families and real world financial needs. By 1500 hours the shine of a career in aviation has worn off. Most pilots would not be interested in a chance to fly a flash pocket jet if it didn't cover the bills. A 200 hour jockey would likely sell his gran for it.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Alrosa, it's the primary factor. 1500 hours experience represents people with lives, homes, families and real world financial needs. By 1500 hours the shine of a career in aviation has worn off. Most pilots would not be interested in a chance to fly a flash pocket jet if it didn't cover the bills. A 200 hour jockey would likely sell his gran for it.

This absolutely nails it. At 1500 hours pipeline patrol or single pilot IFR in a metroliner, you know full well what the job does to you and what you are worth to yourself and your employer. Life experience is a very valuable thing and what seems like a dream lifestyle at 19/20 (and willing to sell your gran for it) is very different when you are 30 with a family and a mortgage - and the 1500 hour rule means most get to the airlines somewhat later in life, with previous experience with other employers, aviation and otherwise.

There are threads on this board with people so desperate to be on a shiny jet they will pay not only for the rating but to be sat there flying fare paying people around. In a market where that exists, you will never see the sorts of ts and cs you see in the USA.

[Check Airman]

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/650747-type-rating-line-training.html

[SliabhLuachra]

It's a really interesting set of circumstances what's going on across the pond at the moment.

Despite the eureka feelings and starry eyes, there's no doubt that the next 12 months from these pay deals is the absolute peak of the airline market in the U.S. You cannot have salaries like this and not get an insane influx of people training (ie. people are seeing these compensation figures and starting training now in the U.S., If you start training now and get into an airline in 3-5 years, you'll have mountains of people alongside going for jobs) I don't think these figures are sustainable.

I do however firmly believe that there is (and has been for years) a massive imbalance between Europe and the U.S. in terms of comp. At the very least I do believe we can make some assumptions:

The U.S. comp figures are peaking and in a few years this may cause other issues for the airlines
European airlines will have to rethink their compensation once the COVID-induced hole begins to hit (it hasn't yet!). ie. Most people getting into airlines now are integrated folks who started just before/as COVID hit and got delayed, modular students are probably still those who started pre-COVID. (My rationale here is just the length of time modular takes and the 6 or so months COVID put a halt to things for).

So I do think Europe is yet to see the "crisis" of a pilot shortage as in the U.S - (some of you may laugh at that, and understandably so with how under-staffed some airlines are!). Look at Aer Lingus - they had insane amounts of applicants for their recent DEFO scheme - it just shows that airlines with relatively good compensation and lifestyle have their pick of the European job market.

It is largely accepted that we lag the U.S. aviation market in Europe by a few years (financial crisis, COVID recovery, shortages etc.), but the U.S. shortage is much more profound because of the 1500hrs. That said, I firmly believe Europe hit rock bottom in terms of comp over the last decade and that we'll start to see an uptick as the U.S. resets the bar for how airline staff should be paid. We can all agree we won't get near where the Delta/American pay deal got to, but I do think we'll see strong rises over the next few years (provided we don't see a big economic downturn :})

[bafanguy]

It is largely accepted that we lag the U.S. aviation market in Europe.... and that we'll start to see an uptick as the U.S. resets the bar for how airline staff should be paid. We can all agree we won't get near where the Delta/American pay deal got to, but I do think we'll see strong rises over the next few years

Sincere question: Since, due to visa hurdles, EU pilots can't flee the scene in droves over there to take advantage of the hiring situation in the USA, how does the compensation in the USA put pressure on EU airlines to pay their pilots more ?

[A321drvr]

I don't see any pressure on Euro airlines due to the fact that 200hr pilots can and are occupying right hand seats, getting upgraded with just a little over 3000hrs. Most of the LCC-s are even bonding (eg. deducting from salary over the span of 2-3 years) for A320/B737 type ratings. Getting into legacies is mostly restricted for nationals due to requiring to be at least conversant in local language and oftentimes they have their own cadet schemes.

[Superpilot]

Sincere question: Since, due to visa hurdles, EU pilots can't flee the scene in droves over there to take advantage of the hiring situation in the USA, how does the compensation in the USA put pressure on EU airlines to pay their pilots more ?

Not directly I would imagine. But the feeling if they can do it, so can we will eventually set in. All of this driving up more demands and union negotiating.

[AAGpilot]

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.

In fairness, it’s quite difficult for an American to obtain citizenship and the right to work in EU as well.

With regards to your second question, I’m not aware of a massive effort by ALPA or APA (AA pilot’s union) to keep visa holding pilots out of our flight decks. The real fight on capital hill is against EU flag of convenience carriers like Norwegian. 787 Captains making somewhere in the neighborhood of 140K (I think). We certainly don’t want that getting any traction on this side of the pond.

Here’s Isom in his own words btw.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1027x1193/b4897c21_8321_4510_a545_3e4d2ab8dd74_f7a9d291c1c3f87890c4a89 e35bcd4e63e2b4c35.jpeg

[AAGpilot]

Pretty funny…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PGnx0WdsQ0

[Sick]

Ha ha ha!

Funny, cos it's true!

[andymartin]

I was hoping for a sensible answer
Sad to see Pprune is going the way of Twitter/Facebook
So what is there to actually disagree with in that post prey tell??

[zerograv]

Hello AAGpilot,
Did a search for that, would call it, maybe a 'Memo' by Rober Isom, but could not find it anywhere.
Probably it was published may be in a social network, FB, or similar, stuff that I normally don't use.
Would be interested in obtaining a copy of it. Would it be possible to provide a link to that ?
It can be by private message if you prefer.
Thanks

or is it internal stuff of AA, and therefore not available to the outside ?

[BraceBrace]

I disagree. Yes there won’t be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.

RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers.

Not here to judge the system but... It is what Ryanair wants. Make a max 10 year blitz career from 200hrs and only keep the training people that can handle the sytem for the future.

While in a regular airline one has to work the ranks to get promotions, Ryanair hands qualifications out like flyer adds to balance the uncertain work conditions (base closures etc...). When the new crisis arrives, "tired-by-the-system qualifications" are replaced with new "motivated & funded" FO's that feed the training system from the bottom.

While in a regular mainline airline you need a magnifying glass to find a captain at the age of 30, in the low cost business you have to question yourself why you aren't a TRI/TRE already by that age (if you wanted to be one...). Once you have all you wanted from Ryanair, you move on.

Different worlds.

[Superpilot]

Exactly this BraceBrace. That's the model and they are proud of it. The RYR, WZZ and EZY pilots who don't look shagged out by age 40 have won the genetics lottery.

[AAGpilot]

Hello AAGpilot,
Did a search for that, would call it, maybe a 'Memo' by Rober Isom, but could not find it anywhere.
Probably it was published may be in a social network, FB, or similar, stuff that I normally don't use.
Would be interested in obtaining a copy of it. Would it be possible to provide a link to that ?
It can be by private message if you prefer.
Thanks

or is it internal stuff of AA, and therefore not available to the outside ?

Its a transcript someone wrote up of a video Isom put out internally. I tried to up load the video but this site won’t accept the file.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Not here to judge the system but... It is what Ryanair wants. Make a max 10 year blitz career from 200hrs and only keep the training people that can handle the sytem for the future.

While with a regular airline one has to work the ranks to get promotions, Ryanair hands qualifications out like flyer adds to balance the uncertain work conditions (base closures etc...). When the new crisis arrives, "tired-by-the-system qualifications" are replaced with new "motivated & funded" FO's that feed the training system from the bottom.

While in a regular mainline airline you need a magnifying glass to find a captain at the age of 30, in the low cost business you have to question yourself why you aren't a TRI/TRE already by that age (if you wanted to be one...). Once you have all you wanted from Ryanair, you move one.

Different worlds.

Agree in it is what RYR want. Ideally they want an aviation slump to dump some pilots onto the market.
At the moment that’s not happening. What I saw was FOs ready for upgrade saying thanks but no thanks. The drive from FOs I met was there to be LHS. Captain salary at RYR not worth it when can go to ME and earn much more, BA FO at LHR £5k after tax with all the other benefits and option to go LH or Jet2 for pretty good salary for less work.

How many pilots post COVID are now looking for jobs? All the guys and gals I met going through training had qualified just before COVID hit.
RYR need 1200 pilots this year. That’s a lot.

[FalseGS]

Hello AAGpilot,
Did a search for that, would call it, maybe a 'Memo' by Rober Isom, but could not find it anywhere.
Probably it was published may be in a social network, FB, or similar, stuff that I normally don't use.
Would be interested in obtaining a copy of it. Would it be possible to provide a link to that ?
It can be by private message if you prefer.
Thanks

or is it internal stuff of AA, and therefore not available to the outside ?

Hi everyone, Delta’s Pilots recently ratified a new for your deal that it is unprecedented in the history of collective bargaining, profoundly changing the economics of Delta’s pilot career; and that’s not just for Delta’s pilots, that deal with determine compensation benefits, and quality of life for pilot across the rest of the industry. That means something extraordinary for American’s Pilots. That’s because our commitment, my commitment, remains unchanged; Our team members, including our pilot will be paid well, and they will be paid competitively.

Let me be clear, American is prepared to match Delta pay rates and provide American’s pilots with the same profit-sharing formula as Delta’s pilots. American pilot’s would receive pay increases of an average 21% in the first year of the new contract; Begin participation in a much richer profit sharing program and receive a bump in the companies annual contribution to your 401(k) in a second year of the deal. The total pay increase for pilots on average is 40% in the fourth year of the deal. Let me give you a few examples of what this would mean by the end of the agreement, factoring in base salary and increase 401(k) contributions from the company; a narrow body, captain at the top of the scale would make $475,000 a year or $135,000 more a year than they do today. A widebody Captain of the top of the scale order in $590,000 a year that’s $170,000 more a year than they earn today; and participation in the new profit-sharing program will increase the payout pool from 5% of pretax earnings too 10%, and up to 20% earnings about $2.5 billion.
And it’s not just about Delta pay, it’s about making sure this works for American’s Pilot. You would see significant improvements to scheduling related and quality of life items. That means improved trip construction, and more certainty when it comes to replacement flying and recovery obligation.

A deal like this would be a game changer for our pilots. It would be worth more than $7 billion in incremental compensation, benefits, and quality life improvements over the term of the four year agreement. This would allow you to join Delta’s pilots is the industries leader’s in pay, but with more quality of life improvements unique to American Airlines. It’s what you deserve and it can be negotiated and made available quickly. Like you I’m extraordinarily excited about the coming new contract and all that it means for you and American.

As we proceed down the negotiation homestretch, I plan to reach out frequently, share updates and make sure you have the company’s perspective and our unequivocal commitment to completing a new contract expeditiously. I want to assure you that there’s no question of our intent; That is we want you to be paid as well as your peers. We want you to have the quality life and benefits the matter most to you and we don’t want you to have to wait, Now lets get this deal done.

Thanks for listening and thanks for all you do every day.

~Robert Isom

[randon]

There is no way how to compare both markets. It's like to try to compare apple and oranges. The wages in America are like that simply becouse of the oldest law of capitalism... Offer and demand...

[dirk85]

Not even 11 years ago... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRq0O4lnsKE&t=4s

When things go well, salaries in US are amazing and not even comparable to europe, but when things go south, well, they have no bottom.

[AAGpilot]

Not even 11 years ago... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRq0O4lnsKE&t=4s

When things go well, salaries in US are amazing and not even comparable to europe, but when things go south, well, they have no bottom.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the US regional airline sector, but the airlines featured in your video above are in fact not AA, DAL, or UAL. Regional airlines fly subcontracted lift for their Major airline partners, and although the livery on the plane might say XYZ, it’s actually a company you never even heard of. Republic, Skywest, Go Jet, Envoy, Air Wisconsin, and the list goes on. These airline have their own operating certificates, employees, planes, training, etc. They also often have contracts to provide lift for multiple Majors at once.

Historically they’ve been able to pay their first year FOs the ridiculously low numbers that are shown in that video. The reason people accepted those jobs was to build turbine time and turbine PIC with the hope of getting to a Major. Today even those regionals now pay their Captains hundreds of thousands of dollars, and bonuses that would make one’s head spin. I believe all FOs now start at around 100k too. Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont (operating for AA as American Eagle) pay their Check Pilots $427/hour now! I know, insane. The pilot shortage is real over here folks.

[dirk85]

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the US regional airline sector, but the airlines featured in your video above are in fact not AA, DAL, or UAL. Regional airlines fly subcontracted lift for their Major airline partners, and although the livery on the plane might say XYZ, it’s actually a company you never even heard of. Republic, Skywest, Go Jet, Envoy, Air Wisconsin, and the list goes on. These airline have their own operating certificates, employees, planes, training, etc. They also often have contracts to provide lift for multiple Majors at once.

Historically they’ve been able to pay their first year FOs the ridiculously low numbers that are shown in that video. The reason people accepted those jobs was to build turbine time and turbine PIC with the hope of getting to a Major. Today even those regionals now pay their Captains hundreds of thousands of dollars, and bonuses that would make one’s head spin. I believe all FOs now start at around 100k too. Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont (operating for AA as American Eagle) pay their Check Pilots $427/hour now! I know, insane. The pilot shortage is real over here folks.


I am familiar with the regionals in the US, and well aware they are separate entities from the majors. And I am sure they pay hundreds of thousands now. But it has not always been the case. Supply and demand, as usual. In both directions. Let's enjoy now, at least those who can, because who knows what the future holds

[Superpilot]

I remember seeing these desperately low salaries when finishing my commercial training. I have seen a starting salary as low as $15k for a regional job with a feeder back in 2007. The 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with aviation safety. But this is what happens when there is no regulation. Which way would you prefer it?

[cessnaxpilot]

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.

my wife is from Europe and currently flies for a US carrier… as do I. Clearly things are trending in the right direction over here, but American is still waiting for a contract.

I can remember years ago when I wanted to fly in Europe, and there was no way for me to easily convert a license or get employment. I think there may be a shortage at the regional anirlines over here, but not at the legacy airlines. That may change in the next year or two, but not currently.

I think we’d have benefited from no direct entry captains, and not having different contracts for different groups. We are all one at each airline. It is like a marriage over here.! Get your number and stand in line. It can be painful, but in the end, I think it benefits the pilot group as a whole. I speak with my friends at Lufthansa and I hear how they have different pilots hired in different years with different contracts. Crazy!

[RARA9]

It’s the classic divide and conquer mentality.
Take BA for example…. PP24 was the norm then they introduced PP34 . A huge difference for a career !!!
but once enough people are on the PP34 they will vote against the PP24.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

It’s the classic divide and conquer mentality.
Take BA for example…. PP24 was the norm then they introduced PP34 . A huge difference for a career !!!
but once enough people are on the PP34 they will vote against the PP24.

Absolutely correct - and it is worse at some other legacy airlines.

I believe the US also benefits from the fact that there is a continent wide union, something that doesn’t exist across Europe, a comparable land mass with massively varying costs of living and, in pilots, a very mobile work force.

[SunSmith]

The problem in the UK is that the Unions are self-inflicted weak. BALPA, within BA in particular, likes to "get around the table" as if they are management consultants. We only every hear excuses and arguments as to why pilots in the UK are not worth the same as US counterparts. Excuses such as US furlough, chapter 11.... all missing the blatantly obvious point that like-for-like carriers have overall better long term earnings, standards of living and retirement prospects. Ask BALPA for evidence of their arguments and they can't show any.....

Within BA, the main issue is that BALPA reps are too afraid of their own shadows to tell pilots to respect each other and BLRs. They allow people to "work for free", encourage people to volunteer for jobs (flying and none flying) with the excuse that "pilots don't like to be told what to do"...... undermining agreements to such an extent that BA ops/management go out of their way to "forget" rules that attract overtime payments etc....

I know/heard of a few chaps on SH who stick to their principles and try to ensure their co-pilots are treated fairly. One chap got his co the 1.25 NCP that he was owed).....when BALPA told the FO "it's too late".....

until the pilots and their union grow a pair, things won't change..... even today OPS are asking for volunteers to cover work at single rate.....

[cactusbusdrvr]

The problem in the UK is that the Unions are self-inflicted weak. BALPA, within BA in particular, likes to "get around the table" as if they are management consultants. We only every hear excuses and arguments as to why pilots in the UK are not worth the same as US counterparts. Excuses such as US furlough, chapter 11.... all missing the blatantly obvious point that like-for-like carriers have overall better long term earnings, standards of living and retirement prospects. Ask BALPA for evidence of their arguments and they can't show any.....

Within BA, the main issue is that BALPA reps are too afraid of their own shadows to tell pilots to respect each other and BLRs. They allow people to "work for free", encourage people to volunteer for jobs (flying and none flying) with the excuse that "pilots don't like to be told what to do"...... undermining agreements to such an extent that BA ops/management go out of their way to "forget" rules that attract overtime payments etc....

I know/heard of a few chaps on SH who stick to their principles and try to ensure their co-pilots are treated fairly. One chap got his co the 1.25 NCP that he was owed).....when BALPA told the FO "it's too late".....

until the pilots and their union grow a pair, things won't change..... even today OPS are asking for volunteers to cover work at single rate.....


I have never understood the weak dick mentality of pilot unions in Europe. Lord knows, every other workforce is ready to burn the place down (cough, cough, France).

You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both. Being locked into a list means you will do what it takes to improve your wage and benefits. And since we are now 40 years into the post deregulation environment there are many opportunities for pilots to choose a job so that forces carriers to offer attractive packages to entice new hires. Los Estados Unitas is a big country with crappy public funded transport, particularly inter city. So aviation is a staple. Passengers, cargo, everyone wants to be there or get their package deliveries right now. So aviation flourishes.

Another thing to consider is that aviation terms and conditions are only now starting to recover to the pre 9/11 terms. Airline management took advantage of the terror attacks on 9/11 to destroy pilot contracts. They were able to do this until the basic economic principle of supply and demand caught up with the lack of pilot starts driven by those ridiculous starting salaries for regional pilots. Now they are playing catch up. And they are paying to play. FUPM.

The reality is that the passenger has been taking advantage of low fares that can easily absorb an elasticity in price. $99 fares across the country are not good for anyone except the great unwashed who are **** to have as passengers anyway. Post Covid flying a bunch of domestic flights I had more unruly passengers requiring police meeting the flight than in my previous 38 years of airline flying. Thankfully international opened back up and the issues were left to the guys flying domestic. Business travelers will pay the fares, and it’s just a small part of the operating cost of a flight even if both cockpit crew are making $555/hr. I pissed that much away if I held 10 minutes going into LHR.

[Busdriver01]

You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both.


Even the European airlines with both of these cant manage to secure what the Americans have, though..

[172_driver]

I am always surprised pilots are comparing even gross salaries across the world without any critical thought. Look at the employer social contributions, what the state pays for and what cost is put on the individual. It varies significantly, also within Europe.

Supply and demand, labour rules, union strength, market size seals the deal.

[A321drvr]

I am always surprised pilots are comparing even gross salaries across the world without any critical thought. Look at the employer social contributions, what the state pays for and what cost is put on the individual. It varies significantly, also within Europe.

Supply and demand, labour rules, union strength, market size seals the deal.

You can only compare gross salaries as individual situations vary: number and age of children, spouse's income, extra income, current residency, etc. Everyone has to make the educated calculation based on the above (using some available web tools) whether it's worth moving or not.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Fair play to the American Unions for what they have achieved but comparing like for like is silly when you don't factor in the cost of living in any decent city in America, healthcare, University costs for children etc, I would imagine it's actually closer than you think. I'm a single aisle Captain in the UK grossing just under 170k next year and it will cost £9k to send my child to university per year, it's likely 5 to 10 times more across the Atlantic.

[booze]

I think you're all forgetting about the numbers quoted above are only salary based on minimum guarantee (monthly 70-ish odd hrs in most cases). Medical, dental, vision and 401k (pension) matching (in some cases extra company/union pension too - UPS/DL comes to mind), tax free per diems, etc. are on top of of those numbers. Taxes/social differ for everyone (joint filing with your spouse or single filing just one example) and are largely varying on your domicile, too (NY is one of the highest whether in some states you don't even pay state tax, just federal). Guy i know in UPS for example clears north of 300k yearly, after taxes and social.

[Alrosa]

Interesting. I think the cost of living bearing in mind one’s personal circumstances, is of course relevant.

I think one has to remember that any move would, I understand, mean joining the bottom of a very long seniority list. I don’t know how payscales work over there but I imagine some of the figures being quoted are for folk who aren’t at the bottom of the seniority list !

The elephant in the room of course is that it’s practically still very difficult for most people with no obvious connections to get the right to live and work in the states. Not impossible, but difficult.

[booze]

Indeed. Basically one has to work out how much the rest (until the age of 65 for now) of their career is worth. Having that in mind it's an educated (yearly salary scales and upgrade predictions on various fleets for each operator are available) guess whether it's worth pursuing it or not.

[Long Haul]

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.
There is already a perfectly good law in place that says that US companies can't just pressure the government to open up more visas to foreigners, they have to prove that they can't hire enough domestically, which the regional airlines have successfully done. The major airlines don't have that problem, however. As to recognizing foreign licenses, are you saying that US pilots should be able to operate UK and EU aircraft based on their FAA licenses? Because until that happens there's no chance you're going to be able just walk in and get a US ATP certificate. Fortunately they are pretty easy to get anyway, at least a lot easier than a US pilot trying to get an EU license. The best strategy for US airlines is to lobby to extend the retirement age and lower experience requirements, but there isn't much political will to do either. The pay gap has it's roots in a lot of causes, the strong USD, the fact that contracts are typically only renegotiated every four years or so, but the main reason is that flying in the USA is very profitable right now so the airlines want to do more of it, and they need pilots. And they can afford to pay them more. Delta made profits north of 3 billion dollars in 2018, 4 billion in 2019, and more than 1 billion in 2022 while still recovering from the pandemic. All this while the US government pumped $25 billion into the industry that doesn't need to be repaid. Yes ALPA has some negotiating power, but all the power in the world pales in comparison to the basic laws of economics; right now there is unprecedented low supply and high demand for our services.

[AAGpilot]

Update. An agreement in principal has been reached. Here’s some bullet points. 21% raise on date of sign, 37% through term of the contract. For reference, in 2027 this agreement puts a narrow body Captain at $394/hour and a wide body Captain at $484/hour.


Fellow Pilots,

On May 18, 2023, APA and American Airlines successfully negotiated agreements in principle on several remaining economic items, including pay rates. These agreements complement previously agreed-to items, including enhanced work rules and scheduling improvements that focus on quality of life and operational integrity. We will publish a high-level summary and provide more details in the coming days.

However, we understand that the desire for details is shared by all as we move forward with this process. To provide some of those details, we offer the following selected highlights addressed in this agreement. The below bullet points do not fully detail the changes to the agreement, are not all inclusive, and are for informational purposes only.

Summarized Highlights

Note: All “May 2” dates are based on an Aug. 1, 2023, ratification that will change if the agreement is not ratified Aug. 1.

Duration – 4 years; Amendable date: Aug. 1, 2027
Back Pay – (based on eligible earnings)

2020: 4%
2021: 4%
2022: 14%
2023: ~21% (3 months preceding DOS (thus effective May 2, 2023)

Pay rates that meet or exceed Delta pay rates:

(DOS ~21% increase)
May 2, 2024: 5%
May 2, 2025: 4%
May 2, 2026: 4%
May 2, 2027: 3% Amendable year raise

Increase of 401(k) contributions increase to:

17% on May 2, 2024
18% on May 2, 2026

Realign pay step date (pay longevity) to date of hire for all pilots who have not reached 12th year pay.
Establish a Market Based Cash Balance Plan.
Sick sell-back – or – Retiree Health Reimbursement Arrangement (RHRA) option for pilots at retirement at 66% of the value of accrued sick bank (up to $200,000).
Vacation year 2024/2025 and beyond: 4:35 pay per day.
Vacation year 2025/2026 and beyond: 4:00 credit per day.
Increase of vacation accrual to 35 days at 19 years of service.
Long-haul narrowbody (NB) override: CA $8.00/FO $6.00 on all NB flying to Europe, South America (south of the equator), and Hawaii.
International Override: CA $6.50/FO $4.50 (includes Canada).
Improved profit sharing to the Delta formula (10% up to $2.5B pre-tax profit, 20% for anything above).
Increase training pay to 5:00 per day.
Increase (long course) training pay for Initial, Upgrade, Transition to 3:05 per day.
Holiday pay for nine (9) holidays of an additional 5:15 for each designated holiday duty touches (includes simulator training, DHD’s to/from training, OE, and CKP).
Deadhead (DHD) pays greater of scheduled or actual if pilot on aircraft.
Jumpseat: Captain may coordinate to account for expected taxi fuel burn to offset jumpseat occupant.
Pairing Construction Limits:

1- and 2-day pairings: minimum of 20%
4-day pairings: average maximum of 38% in a rolling 12-month period, max 43% in any month
5-day pairings: average max of 8% in a rolling 12-month period, max of 10% in any month

Elimination of ACARS use for scheduling purposes.
Newly developed pilot-centric Electronic Communication System (ECS).
No DHD prior to redeye flight segment on allocated sequences.
2:00 hours pay, no credit for sequences that release between 0000-0159.
Development of graduated premium scale:

50%, 75%, 100%

Movement of pilot DFP only with pilot consent (no moveable DFP).
Adjustments to reserve assignment system utilizing buckets and seniority.
Company may not search or schedule reserve pilot to fly in the lineholder month.
Reserves reassigned will be paid in accordance with the reassignment pay provisions.
If a reserve pilot is scheduled into a DFP (no later than noon), the pilot will receive 5:15 pay/no credit (above guarantee) and the DFP must be restored within the current month; if the DFP cannot be restored (e.g., remainder of month consists of only DFPs), or the pilot elects to not have the DFP restored, the pilot will receive an additional 5:15 pay/no credit (above guarantee).
DFP trading via TTS-like system with transparency and conditions.
Long Call increased to 14 hours outside of DOTC.
Sit rig to pay for all sit time, including due to delays, reassignments, and reserve assignments, for all block-in to block-out time in excess of 2:30
ALV (Average Line Value) window reduced to 74-82 hours, with conditional flex up.
Reassignments will pay 50% premium for segments in the current/first duty period of a reassignment and 100% premium of all segments in subsequent duty period until the pilot is returned to original sequence or domicile.
Pilot shared sequences implemented at DOS.
Sequence Protection, Recovery Obligation, and Replacement Flying improvements that increase pilot optionality.
Adjustments and protections surrounding NB Split Duty Pairings.

Min pay rig of 7:45
Max 2 flight segments (1 outbound, 1 inbound)
Max total scheduled block time: 4:15

Check Pilots

6.0-hour min day including schoolhouse work.
20% override for all X-Type schoolhouse work.
15-day standard month (Company can schedule up to 17): 16th day and greater at overtime (additional 2.5 hours/day above 15 days).
X & L Type CKP paid 12th year pay for what can hold in 4-part bid status.
Create Line Check Pilot (LCP) position.

LCP bid with PBS
25% override pay for all Flight Standards work performed.

Create Instructor Pilot (IP) position.

IP paid highest bid status can hold capped at 12th year WB FO.
15% override pay for IP work performed.


Minimum of 4 vacancy bid awards annually.
Long Term Disability (LTD):

New LTD

Monthly Benefit: 50% of Pre-Disability Earnings, no cap, fully pensionable.
Removal of all offsets.
Reduce elimination period from 90 days to 60 days.
Imputed Income Option: annual election would allow LTD benefits to be “tax-free.”

Improvements to Existing LTD Plans

Increase monthly benefit by 30%.
Remove ALL remaining offsets.
Pilot on LTD and employed by AA as a Sim-P may continue to receive current LTD benefit.

Life insurance increase to $500,000.
FAA first Class Medical reimbursement of up to $278 or $457 with EKG.


A more comprehensive list of agreed-to items from your Negotiating Committee will be forthcoming.

The Negotiating Committee will continue to draft full contractual language that will be presented to the Board of Directors as a proposed tentative agreement (TA). The Board of Directors will then deliberate and decide whether to forward the proposed TA to the membership for ratification.

[CaptainProp]

I disagree. Yes there won’t be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.

RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers.
Brexit may actually help UK licensed pilots.
Anyone starting training now or has just finished have gone or will go EASA route. That gives RYR and Wizz as options to start.
RYR are struggling to fill RUK side of operations.
If you’re jet rated in UK last few months has seen some pretty good options. I know a few people recently who have said to me. “I don’t know where to go?” Been offered Virgin, BA, J2, DHL, Qatar.
UK wise for an FO just looking at ££k J2 is looking mighty. £75k now I think? Summer yes they work hard. Winter though my mate seems to do couple of days work every 2 weeks.
EU land I don’t have my ear to the ground. I do know guys/gals who have got 500hrs at RYR and off to AF/KLM etc.

One thing about the US is yes salaries are looking very good right now.
The cynic in me says yes BUT….. 2 words….
Chapter Eleven.
All bets are off at that stage.

UK and EU based operators will just make type rating schemes more accessible, perhaps open up and (initially) pay ratings for non-rated pilots against ridiculous reduced T&Cs for years on end to “pay back” the costs of training, and they’ll fill any demand in the coming 5/10/15 years. Sorry to break it to you, but there will be no substantial increase or improvement on T&Cs in UK or EU.

CP

[wondering]

There is no way how to compare both markets. It's like to try to compare apple and oranges. The wages in America are like that simply becouse of the oldest law of capitalism... Offer and demand...

I´d disagree. That´s only one variable. Ever wondered why unionized pilots usually earn more than non-unionized?

[3MTA3]

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......

[Check Airman]

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......

Haven't heard about this. Any details you can share?

[Consol]

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......
Details?

[bafanguy]

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......

You'll have to provide a lot more detail and name the US airline before anyone can understand what you allege.

Is the airline in question unionized ? Even if it is, a union has limited power to change the course of events regarding whom the airline hires. At that point in time, a union can express its displeasure with what management is doing but cannot stop it. There are limits on union power and control.

Name the airline and offer documentation.

[Posterviolet]

That’s partially true however @randon is 100% correct. Unions are only as strong as their local labour laws. In Europe we have too many countries and jurisdictions to ever have a strong collective union across the continent. For instance The Netherlands ,that have incredible labour laws ,has a highly effective union for its KLM pilots compared to the U.K. where labour laws are much weaker. Same counts for France/Germany compared with for instance Poland.

Hell has to freeze over twice before any management in Europe ever considers improvements like in th U.S. It’s completely contrary to the European management philosophy. In Europe management philosphy is cheap tickets and driving down personnel costs and conditions as much as possible to the point where technically cadets pay to fly for certain low cost carriers.

For the next 20 years we’re also going to keep this major surplus of pilots. We’re the continent with the most amount of pilots per available registered a/c, I think Oz is a close second. Hell ,we can solve North Americas pilot shortage and still have enough jockeys for our own. And let’s not even get in to 1500hours cause in Europe 500TT gets you in a seat quicker than a 10000 hour driver, and that’s facts(talk to Ryanair recruiters and you’ll see).

We’re speaking of two different aviation sectors. The U.S. , besides their huge leisure travel, also has a massive business commuting sector across the states while we mostly do leisure traveling across EU cities. In the U.S. there’s also far less regulations on the aviation sector while in Europe we have the sector overregulated and Brussels thrives on piling more environmental and fiscal pressure on aviation. So we’re talking two sectors going in opposite directions.

So yes, US and Europe is more like apples and plastic cups, two totally different worlds. One where aviation is a pride of a nation and is cherished and protected while in the other it’s a mere business that should be cheaper, regulated and reduced which automatically leads to lesser conditions.

p.s. I obviously also know what the U.S. industry has been through in these last 25 years but at least there’s much more improvements now, something that we won’t see on this side of the pond.

Not being pessimistic just realistic.

[3MTA3]

The operation is for Skycana, an airline from Dominican Republic. A321 cargo. The plane and the crews are based in Miami, meaning the crews are starting and finishing their duties in Miami. The crew have an ersatz of a contract with Smartlynx which is not even legal in Europe. The crews are from EU or some other places in Europe. They are staying on a crew visa which is normally valid to stay in the US on a layover. I understand it's not a union job but more of an immigration problem, but maybe someone could clarify the situation (union calling the immigration for example).

[cessnaxpilot]

I don’t have any intimate knowledge of how things work in the US, but I suspect that part of the reason for the higher salaries on average is the 1500hr rule - which Europe doesn’t have. It’s not the only factor, but it must have some effect.

Yes… and the military isn’t producing as many pilots

[Flappo]

I have never understood the weak dick mentality of pilot unions in Europe. Lord knows, every other workforce is ready to burn the place down (cough, cough, France).

You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both. Being locked into a list means you will do what it takes to improve your wage and benefits. And since we are now 40 years into the post deregulation environment there are many opportunities for pilots to choose a job so that forces carriers to offer attractive packages to entice new hires. Los Estados Unitas is a big country with crappy public funded transport, particularly inter city. So aviation is a staple. Passengers, cargo, everyone wants to be there or get their package deliveries right now. So aviation flourishes.

Another thing to consider is that aviation terms and conditions are only now starting to recover to the pre 9/11 terms. Airline management took advantage of the terror attacks on 9/11 to destroy pilot contracts. They were able to do this until the basic economic principle of supply and demand caught up with the lack of pilot starts driven by those ridiculous starting salaries for regional pilots. Now they are playing catch up. And they are paying to play. FUPM.

The reality is that the passenger has been taking advantage of low fares that can easily absorb an elasticity in price. $99 fares across the country are not good for anyone except the great unwashed who are **** to have as passengers anyway. Post Covid flying a bunch of domestic flights I had more unruly passengers requiring police meeting the flight than in my previous 38 years of airline flying. Thankfully international opened back up and the issues were left to the guys flying domestic. Business travelers will pay the fares, and it’s just a small part of the operating cost of a flight even if both cockpit crew are making $555/hr. I pissed that much away if I held 10 minutes going into LHR.
Lack of scumbags willing to work for peanuts (Europe is plenty of them )- at the time the salaries were low lot of american pilots flew to Asia- .