NORDO over England 04/03/2023, N362PH

[sprite1]

Well done to the 2 Typhoons intercepting N362PH over England today.

And all ATC involved on Guard and behind the scenes.

It can’t have been easy for the Typhoon pilot to have uttered those grave words. It was far from a training exercise at that point.

Incredible to listen to it all unfold.

[Will1593]

"Plane spotters suggested the sound may have come from an RAF Typhoon fighter jet scrambling to intercept another aircraft in distress."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/04/large-explosion-sound-heard-leicester-oxford-northampton

Edit: Obviously related now, but at first the Grauniad article was about unexplained loud bangs over Leics.

[India Four Two]

It can’t have been easy for the Typhoon pilot to have uttered those grave words.

​​​​​​​Which were?

[DaveReidUK]

Comms failure, presumably - squawking 7600.

Reportedly enroute Iceland to Southend for maintenance, escorted into Stansted (though FR24 reckons it went to North Weald).

[fireflybob]

I believe it's something like "If you do not comply I am instructed by His Majesty's Government to shoot you down".

[sprite1]

Which were?

N362PH, this is RIGID11. I am instructed by His Majesty’s Government of The United Kingdom to warn you that if you do not respond to my orders immediately, you will be shot down.

[sprite1]

Comms failure, presumably - squawking 7600.

Reportedly enroute Iceland to Southend for maintenance, escorted into Stansted (though FR24 reckons it went to North Weald).


Quote surprisingly, it appeared he didn’t squawk 7600. London CTL on Guard were asking him blind to either respond on Guard, contact 2 London frequencies or squawk ident. So sounds like they never set 7600.


Once 2-way comms were established, N362PH said they lost their 833kHz ability and could only set .1, .2, .3, etc.

Typhoon released flares too to try catch their attention.

[albatross]

Flight tracking info.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/747x1536/a27bb48c_b18e_424d_8407_5ac13248a603_f2fab1070a7d57a9ccaf07f 57a5437aecc3fda23.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1085x739/2a3fd568_cc51_4307_bad4_0e75ac8ce02f_1de716cecb4c28cefa83fb5 393c136306a114551.jpeg
Plane Spotter Photo Date / location unknown.

[DaveReidUK]

Quote surprisingly, it appeared he didn’t squawk 7600.

He did on Mode S - continuously for at least 30 minutes.

[sprite1]

He did on Mode S - continuously for at least 30 minutes.


Ok, cheers, Dave.

Was that the 30min period before landing? It’d have been 30mins from getting 2-way comms between himself and the Typhoons and landing into STN.

[roger4]

Yes. He was squawking 3470 at FL250 until just north of Birmingham when he changed to 7600 at 12:03z, and maintained the 7600 squawk until landing at Stansted at 12:47z (all according to the replay function on ADSB Exchange).

[bobward]

Most reassuring to know that they are looking after us.
Thank you.

[albatross]

Quote surprisingly, it appeared he didn’t squawk 7600. London CTL on Guard were asking him blind to either respond on Guard, contact 2 London frequencies or squawk ident. So sounds like they never set 7600.


Once 2-way comms were established, N362PH said they lost their 833kHz ability and could only set .1, .2, .3, etc.

Typhoon released flares too to try catch their attention.

JOKE Perhaps they should also broadcast a phone number. 1-800-YOU-IDIOT. JOKE OVER
Laugh if you will…we were once asked by freshly minted MOT inspector as to lost comms procedures after a long day of his enthusiastic inspecting…”My what a curious fellow he was!” El Capitan replied with the correct procedures but also pointed to 2x VHF 1x HF 1x FM on the panel and additionally 4x cell phone plus 2x Portable Sat phones. It was early cell phone daze when you could not yet program numbers into the phones but we had a phone number list for ever FSS, Twr, Center, FBO, Air Ambulance dispatch, RCAF SAR plus police and fire service, hospital ect. ect. in our operational area.
Unfazed he asked about light signals…only to be confronted by being shown the light signals posted on the back of our clipboard, which I was afraid “glorious Leader” was about to hit him with. He finally admitted defeat and retreated to the operator next door to harass them for a day or two. They reported a similar experience with the comment that he was most upset they didn’t have a list of important /useful phone numbers in the aircraft.

[FullWings]

I was listening to the whole thing develop on the way into LHR. Was wondering whether it was radio failure or a decompression gone wrong.

Started to get serious when he was told to head east by order of His Majesty’s Government, thought Typhoon might be launched but it was a weekend and would they have any serviceable ones? We all did a double take on the shoot-you-down bit, though.

Glad they eventually made contact, pilot on the radio sounded quite shaken to begin with but eventually asked to carry on to Southend but Stansted it was! At least it was VMC on top so everybody could see. Does make you wonder if interception is now normal following a radio failure, even if you are sticking exactly to published procedure?
IMC at night in bad weather could be another game entirely...

[ShyTorque]

Don’t forget, the RAF are there to help you when things get difficult!

[toratoratora]

Quote: “ but it was a weekend and would they have any serviceable ones?”

Really?
Do you know what QRA is?

[uxb99]

If the target aircraft doesn't have comms how does it respond to the Fighter?

[WB627]

If the target aircraft doesn't have comms how does it respond to the Fighter?

I believe that is referred to as "Catch 22".

[Hew Jampton]

If the target aircraft doesn't have comms how does it respond to the Fighter?
By following the ICAO standard interception signals and acknowledgements.

[212man]

By following the ICAO standard interception signals and acknowledgements.
Exactly! As described in detail in the operations manual and route guides like Jeppesen. It’s not exactly an unforeseen situation.

[langleybaston]

Quote: “ but it was a weekend and would they have any serviceable ones?”

Really?
Do you know what QRA is?

Battleflight in the good old days. Two fully armed Lightnings in the sky before you could draw the next isobar.

[Flyhighfirst]

I believe it's something like "If you do not comply I am instructed by His Majesty's Government to shoot you down".

Wouldn’t have been that hard to say, and the pilot would have known it. There is no way in a million years the government gives the go ahead to shoot down a passenger aircraft.

Remember a politician somewhere has to make that decision with nowhere to duck and cover the flak.

[Video Mixdown]

Wouldn’t have been that hard to say, and the pilot would have known it. There is no way in a million years the government gives the go ahead to shoot down a passenger aircraft.

Remember a politician somewhere has to make that decision with nowhere to duck and cover the flak.
Circumstances are everything, but I think you’re quite wrong.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Wouldn’t have been that hard to say, and the pilot would have known it. There is no way in a million years the government gives the go ahead to shoot down a passenger aircraft.

Remember a politician somewhere has to make that decision with nowhere to duck and cover the flak.
I hope it never comes to it, but 9/11 greatly swung the pointer to the "comply or we shoot" option.

No politician with the required authority will duck their responsibility. Presented with a very real threat of an aircraft heading off course towards a major city, not complying with an armed aircraft's instruction to follow, and not responding in a manner that every pilot knows and understands. The consequences of inaction are known in those circumstances and the flak far greater than actually doing what everyone in the chain is trained to do.

Incidents like this in the press make it known to the public what the consequences could be. If it happened for real I don't believe any backlash would be as great as you think.

An added bonus, if you can call it a bonus, is that post 9/11, every passenger knows the consequences and will fight given the opportunity. Long gone are the days of ""sit quietly and no one will be harmed".

[Asturias56]

"the days of ""sit quietly and no one will be harmed"."

I though t that was the standard BA Passenger Briefing...................

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

"the days of ""sit quietly and no one will be harmed"."

I though t that was the standard BA Passenger Briefing...................

Interesting. Maybe I should have said "...sit quietly and no one will be harmed.being followed"

What would you do in a hijack / unlawful interference situation knowing the likely outcomes? The passengers of Flight 93 knew their fate if they did nothing - they fought back. They were unfortunate that they failed in saving themselves but there are people alive today blissfully unaware that their lives were saved by the passengers' actions that day; the flight never made it to its intended target.

[Talkdownman]

Presented with a very real threat of an aircraft heading off course towards a major city
Reports indicate that this particular aircraft was actually 'directed' overhead Reading, Heathrow and London, which caused considerable disruption within the London TMA.

[chevvron]

Reports indicate that this particular aircraft was actually 'directed' overhead Reading, Heathrow and London, which caused considerable disruption within the London TMA.
US registered where as far as I know they only use 25 kHz radios; probably never used the 8.33 kHz setting on his radio and didn't know how to select it.
But why not revert to his previous radio selection if he couldn't make contact with London Control?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Reports indicate that this particular aircraft was actually 'directed' overhead Reading, Heathrow and London, which caused considerable disruption within the London TMA.
Not just reports, the FR24 playback shows exactly that, and show it descending.

I wonder if there was an initial plan to put it into LHR, but that changed last minute. ???

Fr24 shows quite a few aircraft sat on the ground waiting to go.

[chevvron]

Not just reports, the FR24 playback shows exactly that, and show it descending.

I wonder if there was an initial plan to put it into LHR, but that changed last minute. ???

Fr24 shows quite a few aircraft sat on the ground waiting to go.
Don't rely on what you see on FR24; there's always a queue for departures at Heathrow. Talkdownman will tell you how long; I've never worked there.

[DIBO]

I wonder if there was an initial plan to put it into LHR, but that changed last minute. ???London Stansted: The UK's Designated Destination For Hijacks (https://simpleflying.com/london-stansted-hijacks/) (or similar events)

[DIBO]

But why not revert to his previous radio selection if he couldn't make contact with London Control?Why not use 121.5 when you've trouble contacting anybody...pretty basic...

[ShyTorque]

Why not use 121.5 when you've trouble contacting anybody...pretty basic...

According to some, 121.5 should never actually be used to TALK to anyone. It interrupts their snooze patterns. ;)

[chevvron]

According to some, 121.5 should never actually be used to TALK to anyone. It interrupts their snooze patterns. ;)
I was told you couldn't get a word in edgeways; it annoys US pilots who want to discuss their golf scores.
I even heard that once they replied to a 'MAYDAY' by saying 'hey fella you're transmitting on guard'.

[Expressflight]

Not just reports, the FR24 playback shows exactly that, and show it descending.

I wonder if there was an initial plan to put it into LHR, but that changed last minute. ???

Fr24 shows quite a few aircraft sat on the ground waiting to go.

In the old days I thought the procedure in the event of radio failure was to continue to destination, SEN in this case, in accordance with your Flight Plan. He descends from FL180 to FL070 between Reading and Egham, heading East, then at 1224Z turns onto a Northerly heading maintaining FL070. As his Flight Plan wouldn't have conformed with that doesn't it look like he was instructed to do so? Anyone know at what time was the interception made? Was he under the 'control' of the Typhoon from Egham onwards or did that comence later than that?

[old-timer]

Good point Chevron; from basic flight school & airmanship (common sense) if no joy on new freq’y go back to previous freq’y that was working, I had to do that myself once at night inbound to McCarran & saved the night for us

[old-timer]

Good point Chevron

[sycamore]

And if you`ve really lost the radios,pull out your PLB/ELT........

[hec7or]

I doubt anyone seriously thought that a civil aircraft with only 2 crew on board had been hijacked, however it was a good reason to provide valuable training to the fighter controllers and the QRA and give the technical equipment a good workout.

[DuncanDoenitz]

I doubt anyone seriously thought that a civil aircraft with only 2 crew on board had been hijacked, however it was a good reason to provide valuable training to the fighter controllers and the QRA and give the technical equipment a good workout.
Doesn't need to be hijacked by a third party; both crew in league (or one overpowers the other) to initiate some nefarious agenda.

[Ninthace]

Doesn't need to be hijacked by a third party; both crew in league (or one overpowers the other) to initiate some nefarious agenda.
Indeed, only takes one. Would the number of persons on board be known to the person authorising Q and would it have any bearing on the decision?

[golfbananajam]

I'd just tee'd off the 15th (near Leicester) when the sonic booms arrived, scared the living bejeezus out of us all. Glad it turned out to be a "routine" intercept that ended safely.

[Dogma]

Who owns this hunk of junk? Why is it operating in and out of the UK?

As has been suggested they looked like they were going into LHR which seems unusual but the whole situation is unusual - the CAA should comment

[DaveReidUK]

Who owns this hunk of junk? Why is it operating in and out of the UK?

Intended route was Iceland to Kenya via Southend. Perhaps they though a tech stop en route was preferable to plummeting into the Med.

As has been suggested they looked like they were going into LHR which seems unusual but the whole situation is unusual - the CAA should comment

Over Reading at 15,000 ft didn't suggest a Heathrow inbound to me.

[Andrewgr2]

Intended route was Iceland to Kenya via Southend. Perhaps they though a tech stop en route was preferable to plummeting into the Med.



Over Reading at 15,000 ft didn't suggest a Heathrow inbound to me.

Wasn’t it following instructions from the Typhoon(s) well before it got to Reading and therefore had little control of its choice of height or heading?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Doesn't need to be hijacked by a third party; both crew in league (or one overpowers the other) to initiate some nefarious agenda.

Exactly. It's not how many are on board that matters, it is how many below that can harmed that counts.

Even a single seat Cessna into a football stadium would be catastophic. As an example (not withstanding timing) weren't Chelsea at home that day? A potential audience circa 40,000 people in a relatively confined area just a few miles east of LHR.

Did this aircraft actually fly over LHR at 7000' whence it made the sharp turn onto north? Somebody either instructed it to go that way or it did so of its own accord. Does anyone know which it was?

[212man]

Indeed, only takes one. Would the number of persons on board be known to the person authorising Q and would it have any bearing on the decision?
It’s a Dash 8, on an IFR flight plan - of course the POB are known. It’s not some Sunday afternoon VFR PPL in a Cessna 152.

[air pig]

Doesn't need to be hijacked by a third party; both crew in league (or one overpowers the other) to initiate some nefarious agenda.

Germanwings murder suicide crash is a case in point.

[Video Mixdown]

It’s a Dash 8, on an IFR flight plan - of course the POB are known. It’s not some Sunday afternoon VFR PPL in a Cessna 152.
That information may be known, but it’s academic. Until some radio or visual contact is made nobody has any idea what’s going on aboard the aircraft, and the interceptors have to possess the means to destroy it if ordered. It’s not a game.

[chevvron]

It’s a Dash 8, on an IFR flight plan - of course the POB are known. It’s not some Sunday afternoon VFR PPL in a Cessna 152.
Doesn't stop a hitch hiker asking the pilot for a lift at the last minute.
I had a helicopter depart from Wycombe and the ATCO recorded 3 pob. When it crashed, the police recorded pob as 2. I double checked with Wycombe and they were adamant they had booked out with 3. I tried to tell the police but they weren't interested so I managed to get hold of the AAIB inspector and told him.
Sure enough they eventually found a third body some distance from the helicopter. They guessed she'd realised there was a problem and had jumped out before impact.

[212man]

Doesn't stop a hitch hiker asking the pilot for a lift at the last minute.
I had a helicopter depart from Wycombe and the ATCO recorded 3 pob. When it crashed, the police recorded pob as 2. I double checked with Wycombe and they were adamant they had booked out with 3. I tried to tell the police but they weren't interested so I managed to get hold of the AAIB inspector and told him.
Sure enough they eventually found a third body some distance from the helicopter. They guessed she'd realised there was a problem and had jumped out before impact.A well known accident involving Denis Kenyon’s son. Given it was a two seat aircraft that had a third occupant, and it broke up in flight, it’s highly unlikely she ‘jumped’!

[roger4]

Exactly. It's not how many are on board that matters, it is how many below that can harmed that counts.

Even a single seat Cessna into a football stadium would be catastophic. As an example (not withstanding timing) weren't Chelsea at home that day? A potential audience circa 40,000 people in a relatively confined area just a few miles east of LHR.

Did this aircraft actually fly over LHR at 7000' whence it made the sharp turn onto north? Somebody either instructed it to go that way or it did so of its own accord. Does anyone know which it was?

The sonic boom from the Typhoons was heard over Northamptonshire and parts of Oxfordshire, but neither we (near Benson) nor my daughter's family (near Abingdon) heard it. The Dash 8 began its descent from FL250 around Kidlington. It then routed in continual descent to Reading, passing overhead there at FL150, then turned east still descending, and turned north at Heathrow levelling at FL70 in the turn. The aircraft then routed north towards Luton before turning east towards Stansted, all at FL70. All these data come from the replay function on ADSB Exchange.

I assume therefore that the intercept took place north of Oxford, perhaps around Banbury, and the Dash 8 was "guided" around London (broadly following the M25 clockwise) in order to avoid flying over the city center.

[chevvron]

A well known accident involving Denis Kenyon’s son. Given it was a two seat aircraft that had a third occupant, and it broke up in flight, it’s highly unlikely she ‘jumped’!
Helicopter was a 3 seat Hughes 300 but the police originally assumed it was an R22 hence only 2 pob.
Didn't know about the connection with Denis (he only died a few years ago).
I worked with a student of Denis (she and I were both FISOs) when I was at Fairoaks but only met him once.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

The sonic boom from the Typhoons was heard over Northamptonshire and parts of Oxfordshire, but neither we (near Benson) nor my daughter's family (near Abingdon) heard it. The Dash 8 began its descent from FL250 around Kidlington. It then routed in continual descent to Reading, passing overhead there at FL150, then turned east still descending, and turned north at Heathrow levelling at FL70 in the turn. The aircraft then routed north towards Luton before turning east towards Stansted, all at FL70. All these data come from the replay function on ADSB Exchange.

I assume therefore that the intercept took place north of Oxford, perhaps around Banbury, and the Dash 8 was "guided" around London (broadly following the M25 clockwise) in order to avoid flying over the city center.
Thanks Roger4, I have seen the replay.
First reports on social media regarding a "boom" were at around 12:10 Usually a pretty good time stamp with the "WTF was that bang I just heard" etc. . At that time the 7600 was just about over Banbury. Intercept then needs to lose a lot of speed to join the Dash 8, get its attention, go through the procedures before doing the escort to Stansted. Intercept was probably a fair bit south of Banbury and now at Dash 8 speed.

I know when the Typhoons launched... The guys did good. :ok:

[Expressflight]

Who owns this hunk of junk? Why is it operating in and out of the UK?

As has been suggested they looked like they were going into LHR which seems unusual but the whole situation is unusual - the CAA should comment
Reportedly the aircraft had been stored since March 2019 and first flew recently on 1st March 2023. As I write it's still on the ground at STN.

[chevvron]

Reportedly the aircraft had been stored since March 2019 and first flew recently on 1st March 2023. As I write it's still on the ground at STN.
So the pilot(s) could have just been ferry pilots unfamiliar with the on board equipment fit just as I suggested earlier at #32.

[Underbolt]

Even a single seat Cessna into a football stadium would be catastophic. As an example (not withstanding timing) weren't Chelsea at home that day? A potential audience circa 40,000 people in a relatively confined area just a few miles east of LHR

More than that at Twickenham, a lot closer to LHR.

[albatross]

So the pilot(s) could have just been ferry pilots unfamiliar with the on board equipment fit just as I suggested earlier at #32.
Not a very good fit as a “Ferry Pilot” if he has never operated in European airspace and can’t RFM. Joke. Any chance the notorious Ferry Pilot “Robert Weaver” has resurfaced? Joke Over

[SWBKCB]

Dash 8 left Stansted earlier, got over the channel and has now turned back...

[chevvron]

Dash 8 left Stansted earlier, got over the channel and has now turned back...
Or was it forced to turn back.......

[chevvron]

Not a very good fit as a “Ferry Pilot” if he has never operated in European airspace and can’t RFM. Joke. Any chance the notorious Ferry Pilot “Robert Weaver” has resurfaced? Joke Over
Have you never encountered a cowboy type 'ferry pilot' who will fly 'anything to anywhere' often just using a set of FRCs ?

[charliegolf]

By following the ICAO standard interception signals and acknowledgements.

Aren't they still part of the most basic air law exams?

CG

[SWBKCB]

I had to do them for my microlight licence.... :ok: